Homestuck/WMG/Guardians

Dad is going to be used as a material in a first guardian at some point.

• Look at the first guardians and how they were created so far: Doc Scratch was made partially from Lil' Cal, an object with significance to Bro and Dave. Bec has Harley's genes, and is thus linked to Jade and her Grandpa. Gcat hasn't had anything confirmed yet, but I would bet money he's got something to do with Jaspers. So, what is there a significant link to in John's life that would be sentient enough to form a first guardian? Dad. Any other links John has to someone or something who is not a player in a session are to non-sentient objects, and Dad is mysterious enough to work.

Bro's glasses actually have an Auto Responder in them...

• We probably will never know.
• Doubtful, though, considering that Bro doesn't show any signs of possessing future tech beyond his rocket board.

Dad was a victim of Betty Crocker's brainwashing.

We've seen that Betty Crocker uses subliminal messages on Alpha Earth. Clearly she's more powerful there than she was on Beta Earth, but she may have attempted brainwashing there anyway. Nanna and John were unaffected, but Dad (who probably took up baking in Nanna's memory without learning the truth about The Batterwitch) fell right into it, and ended up obsessed with baking.

First Guardians always travel back in time after being created, and always die or cease to exist shortly after "catching up" with the moment of their creation.

In this fashion, they serve as guardians of the timeline that leads to their existence, intervening to preserve the Stable Time Loops it is based upon--not necessarily out of a sense of duty but rather out of simple self-preservation. They can't come into being if the timeline becomes Doomed.

After the point of their creation, there is nothing enforcing their good behavior, so a First Guardian's ultimate purpose is always tied to their inevitable demise. (Bec ensuring Jade's entry and then being overwritten by Jadesprite, Doc Scratch being an excellent host, etc.)

Lord English is essentially a shameless exploitation of these two conditions: a second entity bearing the First Guardian code metamorphoses from the corpse of the first, satisfying the "must die" requirement at the moment of his creation. Since this takes place at the end of the universe and Lord English is technically the same being as Doc Scratch (except not), he has no Protectorate assigned to him and may satisfy the "must travel back in time in a Stable Time Loop" requirement in any arbitrary fashion he pleases. The result: a being with First Guardian-level omnipotence and no timeline to preserve--absolute power with no limitations whatsoever.

(This is also the reason for Lord English's lack of omniscience--he doesn't have a set timeline to preserve. For him, the future is not an unbroken chain of cause and effect, but a blank canvas.)

GCat killed Frigglish/Jaspers to enable his own creation.

• As a First Guardian, he's responsible for encouraging his own creation. Jaspers' death enables him to be sampled for ectobiology.
  • This is almost certainly at least indirectly true, as First Guardians seem to take action in order to preserve the Stable Time Loops upon which the timeline is based. Jaspers' death might not be a prequisite to getting his paradox slime, but it's still a requirement of the timeline that leads up to GCat's creation.

Mr. Crocker remembers the Beta World.

He, out of all the guardians, has not changed. This makes him stand out; If he was the only one without a change, this likely could mean that he still retains the old memories he had from the Beta World. Unfortunately, this would involve a bit of Fridge Horror, as the recent watching of Jane's "Mailsplosion" would bring back unknown, painful memories of a similar incident somewhere in his past.

Plus, it'd give a whole new reason behind his name being Mr. Crocker: Nobody but him knows about the Old Universe. Nobody'd believe him, either.

• FAIRIES!
• Remembering the Beta universe would invite unavoidable comparisons to the Signless/Sufferer, except Dad was not ectobiologically created, and Hussie likes to extend these metaphors as far as they can go.

Once in the Alpha Session, Alpha Dad and Alpha Rose Lalonde (Mom Lalonde) will fight the Batterwitch

Okay, remember when Jack got the ring and fought Bro in the Beta Universe? Well Her Imperious Condescension seems to be filling Jack's role of breaking the session, so it's likely inevitable that she'll fight one or more of the Guardians at some point. Fighting Dad makes sense since the two are related (via adoption), while Alpha!Rose will presumably still fight with knitting needles - weapons that resemble those used by The Handmaid/The Demoness.

Also it means she'll probably kill them. And Alpha!Dave.

• Jossesd, the Batter Witch already killed Alpha Dave and Rose (at least according to Dirk), plus Alpha Ben Stiller and "Childish Gambino".
  • The only ray of light to this theory depends on whether or not Mom Lalonde is used to prototype a sprite. However, with no prototyping towers on Derse and Prospit it remains to be seen whether any prototyping will take place or not.

All First Guardians serve Lord English

(This is actually a relocated discussion from the Headscratchers page.)

"First Guardians serve English first and foremost, and the planet secondarily. Notice how Doc Scratch's "protection" and Bec or God Cat's really only boils down to keeping the players alive before the session starts and setting up events for the session to begin."

• We can't really make assumptions about the first guardians' relationship with Lord English. While it's entirely possible that Bec and/or GCat are allied to Lord English there is nothing in the text that implicitly or explicitly says that, other than the fact a single one of them is. Just because Doc Scratch is his servant doesn't mean necessarily that all first guardians are.
  • There's overwhelming evidence First Guardians are designed to serve Lord English (Green Sun powers between both of them, Guardians encourage Sburb, must die in order to bring English into the universe), and virtually nothing against it. Not even Bec's sacrifice is really an example against it either, as he technically lives on in Jack, PM, and Jade, any of whom could end up manifesting Lord English. It has not been outright stated, but it is intended to be obvious, much like Betty Crocker's identity.
    • Each of your 3 points of "overwhelming" evidence are irrelevant. First, the fact that the Green Sun powers all First Guardians stands as a fact on its own. There is no evidence the Green Sun empowers Lord English or is in any way linked to Lord English save that it was yet another prerequisite for Doc Scratch to exist, since he is a First Guardian. Second, FG's encouraging Sburb is not directly relevant to Lord English. It is only flawed sessions that will host Lord English. Doc Scratch says that LE's "calling card" is a glitched session in which the players were spawned in another session, hinting that there are normal sessions that do not allow LE in -- yet these sessions must have First Guardians as well since all planets with intelligent life are destined to have one. In fact, it seems that DS himself is specifically a requirement for LE and not just any First Guardian, because he says, "Instances of myself have spawned in countless universes, and my objective is always the same. I have never once failed to complete this objective, and I never will." Third, according to Word of God DS was still alive up until the point that LE burst out of him; his death was a consequence, not a prerequisite.
    • Point by point: 1) Yes it is; check English's birth again, he summons his coat with an image of the Green Sun. 2) Flawed sessions are unable to complete the game; infants not being from that session are just a symptom of that. In fact part of the Pre-Scratch trolls fixing their session was to outright make a deal with Echidna and bring a First Guardian to their planet. As for the "instances of myself" line, it's not beyond logical thought that Doc, and by extension First Guardians, would naturally take different forms for different planets, while their general characteristics (white, god powers, no face, etc) remain the same. Given every session shown thus far has needed a First Guardian, it seems that they're vital to the game, and there's no evidence of sessions being successful without them 3) Essentially this one just argues semantics, the true point being that a First Guardian must die in order for Lord English to manifest.
    • The only real evidence we've seen is that Doc Scratch must die in order for Lord English to manifest. Considering we've never seen another instance of Lord English coming into being, nor another instance of a First Guardian dying, there is absolutely no reason to assume that all First Guardians are capable of manifesting Lord English through death. You're basing a correlation on a single instance and generalising the circumstances of the only manifestion of Lord English we've seen. It's true that First Guardians seem necessary for the game, but that has nothing to do with Lord English. Also, if you're arguing that GCat is Lord English' ally, then it would be working alongside Betty Crocker, which does not seem to be the case.
    • We've seen three First Guardians. Doc Scratch aside since clearly he works for English, Bec and GCat have helped the nascent sessions get started, and protected the players from death. Look at them as similar to Dave and Aradia's reset functions, to protect the Alpha timeline. The end result of Bec's actions was the destruction of the human universe, which is well in line with English's motives. While GCat is still largely an unknown, it's not contradictory for him to be serving Lord English and yet helping Jane survive the Condesce's murder attempts, which is what you implied. Even Doc helped keep the players alive (mostly), before their entry. And keep in mind too there's no indication there are multiple iterations of Doc Scratch! The one thing that genuinely makes him unique and alive, the genetic code all First Guardians have, is present in GCat and Bec, as well as multiple shared traits like a blank white appearance, etc. They are naturally less intelligent (not being omniscient), but they absolutely have mysterious agendas that still haven't been fully revealed or explained.
      • If you look only at the end results, then by that logic every single character has served Lord English's goals so far. You can't ascribe Bec's actions to some sort of obvious motive to serve Lord English just off of that. The most you can say is that they've acted to preserve the alpha timeline. Second, there is explicit indication that there are multiple iteration of Doc Scratch by his own words, linked above. Third, [we're getting off topic from the original discussion this was pulled from].
      • Fair enough; but just as a final note as I'm genuinely a little frustrated by your cyclical logic, continuing to argue points I thought I already demonstrated evidence against. Doc's comments never were shown to apply specifically to 1:1 copies of himself, and there's plenty of overlap with Doc and the other First Guardians, far more similarities in fact than differences, and at any rate, trusting the words of Doc at face value is a little too trusting as well, given the Green Sun plot. You're welcome to believe what you like, but this is one of those ideas that to me at least seems to be one of the Untwists that Homestuck occasionally has. Much like the dreambubble afterlife discussion above, there's plenty of evidence for both sides and neither side has concretely been proven to be conclusively correct.
  • I've tried my best to offer counter arguments, but you haven't listened. That's why I keep going over them. Your "overwhelming evidence" boils down to a few shaky arguments.
    1) They share the same power source and FG genetic code, and this should imply the same motives, ignoring any other contributing factors to their creation (e.g. Lil' Cal) or the behavior of other intelligent characters that draw from the same power source (e.g. Jade).
    2) Acting to preserve the Alpha timeline when the Alpha timeline results in Lord English's summoning inherently means that this was your primary goal all along. We should assume there is no other valid reason to wish to protect the kids or preserve the session beyond bringing Lord English eventually into the universe it creates.
    3) Doc Scratch is the model we should use for all guardians since he's the only one who explains his motives. Since his death was necessary to summon Lord English, the death of a First Guardian (which he is) is necessary, thus the death of any First Guardian will suffice. Any references to other iterations of himself must necessarily refer to any other First Guardian and not to a subset of First Guardians.
    4) But, if something Doc Scratch says might contradict this theory, remember that he is a scoundrel and take his words with a grain of salt, even though he's never outright lied, and there's little reason to do so to the audience. (e.g. Dismiss outright what he said about Lord English's calling card in the A1 session and any implications it has about other sessions.)
    • Rebumped chat back for coherency. Point by point.
      1) While Cal himself is a "jUjU", there is no indication that English cannot play out a similar role with another FG. Scratch was a puppet used as a weapon, so GCat and Bec might just be animals obeying their masters. Just because the motif exists with Scratch and English doesn't mean that's what must always exist.
      2) While this argument is valid for Bec, GCat has no strong emotional connection demonstrated to any of the Kids. Moreover, Bec and GCat aren't sentient, so they can't really have motives! Animals can however obey orders, and even Bec's prototyping of himself to save Jade was in and of itself preserving the Alpha Timeline, meaning these things aren't mutually exclusive.
      3) This depends on the assumption that Lord English varies his appearance based on Universes, and there is not simply one Lord English. Given that Andrew referred to English being the Troll's conception of death and an agent of their mythology, this assumption does carry some weight, as Humanity's conception of death is markedly different from the Troll's, and that could presumably extend to others. Look at for instance Anubis, a god of the dead whom a LE with Bec's ears would heavily resemble.
      4) I never meant to undergo Confirmation Bias, though you apparently think I did. I merely am cautious at taking Doc's words at face value, especially words mentioned all of once in a sequence that was heavily symbolic (the calling card). Moreover part of our diagreement is about Doc's reference to his "counterparts" which you take to mean "Doc Scratch" and I take to mean "First Guardian". Neither of these are incorrect, and from the evidence in front of us at this time, neither can be proven or disproven.
      Closing: My argument boils down to this. We know Doc Scratch is connected with LE, and that in other sessions, First Guardians are created by agents of Derse, which is very loosely allied with Lord English (Feferi's Lusus, Snowman, Destruction etc). First Guardians prepare a planet for Sburb, And Then What?. Once a session has entered, a First Guardian's purpose is complete. We have no idea what happens after that stage, though in Doc's case he became Lord English. It's not that much of a stretch to believe that is the natural fate of any First Guardian, not necessarily that it must be an alternate of Doc Scratch. Moreover, in every case of FG that we have seen thus far, they are based on a tool or an animal, something that naturally can be subservient to a master.
      

Nanna's maiden name was ???? Clemens.

In the Alpha universe, Jane's (and likely but not necessarily Jade's) surname is Crocker, but the Batterwitch has her hooks deeper into things over there than she ever did in the Beta universe. It's quite possible that Nanna was originally given her adoptive father's name,and her active rebellion and love of japery may have led her to keep (or, later in life, re-acquire) her late adoptive father's surname.
On a vaguely related note from the vantage point of another universe, Jane Twain would have been a horrible name to have the option of choosing over Jane Crocker.

• It would have to be Sassacre, as that seems to genuinely be his name, rather than Sam Clemens.

Dad is a clone (ectobiological or otherwise) of Colonel Sassacre

They're the same height, the same build; hoot, even their noses are identical. It would explain why there's such a strong resemblance despite the fact that John/Poppop and Nanna/Jane aren't his blood relatives at all, and would also explain why he looks exactly the same in both timelines, despite the fact that he clearly has different parents. Of note, while Nanna mentions that she started a family, she doesn't actually say she gave birth...

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