Supernatural (TV series)/Headscratchers

• In the very first episode: Why does Dean return for Sam in the first place? The timing is off for him to have heard Sam yell, unless he was lurking around outside waiting for Sam to need him(which is not outside the realm of possibility for Dean).
  • There's a deleted scene on the Season 1 DVD set that shows Dean driving away in the Impala before noticing his radio going hay-wire, lights flickering, etc., which tipped him off to supernatural activity in the area and caused him to go back for Sam.

• What do Sam and Dean do for money? What do they do for food? How do they keep gas in their car?
  • I can't recall if this is canon or fanon, but a lot of fanfic has them make most of their money hustling pool. In canon, they seem to have fake credit cards.
    • I don't remember what episode it was in, but in canon they seem to have a system of hustling pool where Sam pretends to be drunk and loses a few games, Dean pretends to get him to stop playing, the mark bets a ton of money, and Sam unexpectedly wins. Since they usually have cash on them and fake credit cards are rarely seen after the first season, things like this seem like the most likely way they earn money.
    • Also in the Season 5 finale, Chuck mentions that Sam "used to insist on honest work" to earn money, "but now he just hustles pool games like his brother".
      • How much money could they possibly get that way? They probably don't go for fancy when they travel, but it still takes a whole lot of gas, not to mention money for weapons, fake IDs and whatever other illegal stuff they need. I can't imagine that'd be cheap.
        • Maybe they're really, really good at pool?
        • Depends on how much money the other person is willing to lay down. Might be able to clear a few hundred in a night, maybe more if they're lucky.
          • It never shows it, but they kill quite a few humans maybe they loot the corpses?
          • Credit card scams are mentioned at one point.
• Why didn't Dean make a deal to save John (and Evan) from hell in exchange of releasing the demon from the seal back in Season 2 ep 8?

• The characters routinely impersonate people they shouldn't always be able to get away with impersonating but are never called out on it.
  • Most cops have a very distinctive walk, due to odd muscling caused by wearing heavy belts. Shouldn't someone notice that Sam and Dean very clearly do not "walk like cops"?
    • The show is set in TV-land, so there's no distinctive cop-walk. Funny, huh?
    • It's especially bad when they pretend to be federal agents. Ackles, fair enough, but there's no way in hell a Federal Law enforcement officer would have Padalecki's haircut. It'd be like an investment bank manager with a green mohawk.
      • The improbable haircut goes hand in hand with the tidy appearance of hunters who travel around non-stop and live in motel rooms. It ranges from impractical to just plain impossible, so there's no way to justify it, but I personally like to think of it as an acceptable break from reality.
      • Also, you have to understand, this is a universe where Castiel (a character who has once been described as "dresses like Columbo and talks like Rain Man") can pass himself off as an FBI agent. While holding his badge upside down. People are just that gullible here (at least in the later seasons).
  • One season 1 episode has them infiltrating a fraternity house just by claiming to be brothers of a different chapter who need a place to stay. All well and good except that most Greek organizations have some form of a secret password which would probably be expected from someone who shows up out of the blue and even if this frat didn't Sam and Dean didn't have any letters or pins. And no one even called or texted someone from the chapter they claimed to be from.
  • It was the car. When they showed up. Everyone seemed to be working on a car of some kind. So when they showed up in this thing and gave their lines, it was believable just in the way they said it. Besides that there was the death that just happened that might have been pretty distracting. Grief does things to people, especially in schools. Their arrival wouldn't have been nearly as questioned as it would be in a normal situation. It was a mix of them being confident, having the right car and showing up in a time of grief.
    • I'd like to think Bobby has a list of all the secret frat passwords. Seems to fit him.
  • They did get called out in "Criss Angel is A Douchebag" by the magicians, who were so used to deception that they saw the signs right away.
    • They got called out on this plenty of times, especially in early seasons. It's just that the cops usually realized it's all for the perfectly good cause of killing monsters and let them go (or end up dead before they have the chance to notify someone). Doesn't do the tiniest least to justify it as far as the law is concerned, but still makes more sense.
      • In the first episode, Dean actually got caught pretending to be an FBI agent, and I think it happened again at some point, but not enough. They constantly go around questioning witnesses and looking at corpses, so shouldn't they walk into a real agent at some point? The closest thing I recall happened in Sex and Violence, where the agent turned out to be a siren.
  • It also might be some sort of Bavarian Fire Drill. Basically, flipping any sort of official looking paper or card under someone's nose will get people to comply if you seem like you are allowed. This is why our teachers (law, economics, history and ethics and a few assorted others) are required to inform us how to handle a situation where someone flashes a badge and tells you to comply is make him hold the damn badge still until you can check and double check it because otherwise, someone can just flash you a student ID and you're still gonna do as they say. It gets even more noticeable when the person being shown the badge is in distress because there seems to be a part of the human brain that just wants to believe that someone else can handle this and someone else will know what to do. So I guess they just have to get the timing right as not to run into any officials and the civilians take care of themselves.

• Why are the relative power levels of beings on this show so wonky? Jesse is outrageously powerful. Why? He's just the offspring of a normal human and a normal demon. If anything, he should be weaker than a full-blooded demon (see Inuyasha), not practically as powerful as God. And then you have the so-called "Pagan Gods", or what some other works would call "Powers". Why are they so ridiculously weak? I get that they're basically tulpas and many of them are depowered by lack of worshipers, but still, come on people, they're still Gods! They should be, at the very least, equivalent to an archangel in terms of their power over reality, and, last time I checked, Gods were immortal and, at the very least, nearly indestructible. Always. Or they're not gods. Usually only a god can kill another god. It should certainly take a whole lot more than an iron axe or wooden stake to ice one!
  • Gods Need Prayer Badly is part of it. Also, I've been under the impression that killing gods is temporary, and they'll reincarnate soon. But that's just my personal Fan Wank.
    • Needing prayer may justify some, but not all. I think Kali is still getting plenty of prayer, thank you. Hindus are a fairly big chunk of the world's population.
    • According to wikipedia, there are 3.8 billions followers of the Abrahamic religions, or 54% of the world's population (and even if you don't count Islam with Christianity, there are still around 2 billions Christians in the world). Hinduism has "only" one billion followers, so if the gods' power is determined by the number of prayers, it's normal that Kali isn't as strong as God or one of the strongest archangels.
  • I know this isn't "it just bugs me" anymore, but this really just bugs me. The show was fairly consistent in showing gods as people-eating monsters that could be killed with a wooden stake. The one exception actually turned out to be an archangel. Why on earth do so many people not only expect but assume that we're working off American Gods rules here? It may suck, it may be a failure of storytelling, but that's what it is.
  • The answer here seems to be the "not permanent" one. Killing Osiris explicitly only lasts a couple hundred years. Sure, he canonically came back from the dead once, so he might be the exception rather than the rule, but it makes sense that all the gods can do the same, with varying time spans.
    • The RL answer would be that the Winchesters simply can't beat a deity at full power. That might work in Riordan's logic with superpowered protagonists or whatever, but hunters are just normal humans in this setting and they need to stand a chance. The obvious solution would be to have them fight stuff that people can believably beat, so I suppose the writers didn't think that far. In an attempt to justify it in-universe, I'd say that the people who wrote the myths didn't know how strong the gods were in the first place, just saw that the magical being can make their lives suck as it pleases and agreed to worship it (gods were shown to be rather weak physically, but most of them still had the powers of a deity to some degree, like the scarecrow thing that brought fortune to the town).
  • As for the Antichrist boy, he seemed generally out of place in the setting. The writers realized perfectly well that he's a game breaker and made him disappear in the same episode he first appeared in, so the only role I could imagine him to have was to feed Sam's obsession with people leaning on the dark side. He could serve as a convenient Chekhov's Gun with the whole leviathan thing, but the writers of Supernatural never seemed big on the whole plot thing.
    • Still doesn't explain why the boy is so strong. I would've still bought it if he mysteriously had powers similar to those of the strongest demons, since I doubt there is an exact formula on the subject of half-demon-hybrids, but Jess is probably on par with God.

• Eve, the "Mother of Monsters". Why is it, most people begin to get suspicious of her when they notice that she's barefoot? Do barefooters not exist in the world of "Supernatural"?
  • The hunters are so used to dealing with supernatural stuff that they actually get caught off guard a few times when their opponent turns out to be perfectly human, so who knows, maybe they didn't think of that.
    • Maybe it's just me, but if I see a girl walking around a city barefoot, I assume she either lost her shoes somehow or dumped them because they were too painful to walk in. So really, it'd look slightly weird if said girl wouldn't show any sign of discomfort.

• In Good God, Y'all, Sam realises that he still thirsts for demon blood when he stabs the teenagers. Later in the episode, it's made very clear that they weren't demons. Why did Sam want their blood so badly, when it's made very explicit that they weren't demons and therefore not capable of bleeding demon blood.
  • Can he distinguish possessed from non-possessed blood? Probably also influenced by the illusion? General craving brought on by the sight and thought of demon blood?
    • He can, as of 'My Bloody Valentine' - at the very least, he recognized the demon on sight (or smell) under Famine's influence. Probably doesn't work quite as well under normal circumstances.
    • Actually, when you watch the scene with the knowledge that it's an illusion, it delves into pure Fridge Brilliance. Watch Sam's face closely. Never once does he actually display any kind of craving for the blood. Rather, he's looking at it in a vaguely befuddled way... like he can't understand why he doesn't want it.
      • I don't think he can truly tell them apart, but if he does know on some subconscious level that it's normal human blood, then it could still remind him that he wants the real thing. Psychological reaction and such.
      • War seemed to imply that in a way, it's not just the demon blood Sam thirsts for, but violence in general. Though maybe he was just taking things out of context to mess with his head.

• In "The Curious case of Dean Winchester", Bobby believed that getting de-aged by the he-witch's magic would un-cripple him. It's the whole reason he even bothered gambling, as he wouldn't want to be twenty-five years younger in a wheelchair. Also, technically all he'd need to be cured would be one year of his life back, because it would take his body back to before he received the stab wound. So why didn't Sam or Dean use a chip to help him? Granted, it would mean Dean aging a year, but as "The End" showed us, he'll look almost exactly the same in five years anyway.
  • Even if that worked it might mean Bobby would just be crippled again in a year.
  • Maybe not, he was crippled when he stabbed himself, his age had nothing to do with it. Logically if aging backward would heal him, aging forward wouldn't cause him to become crippled again.
    • But then, how would reversing his aging process do anything about his injury? It could worked if the witch's power relied on reversing-someone's-time logic, but to me it seemed like Bobby was desperate enough to rely on a 'maybe'.

• In "The End" Dean drives the Impala to a hotel. Because Zachariah got a tip-off to Dean's location, he tortures him with a vision of the future and threatens to do it again and again until Dean agrees to be Michael's vessel. Luckily Castiel teleports him out in time before this can happen, but what about the Impala? It's been established that the angels knowing where you are is bad news, so if Cas teleported Dean back to his car so he could drive away, they'd both be susceptible to angel fights and torture. Same applies too in "Abandon All Hope" where the Impala is left in an area later affected by hurricanes and other natural disasters. It's possible that Castiel can just remotely teleport the Impala to wherever it needs to be, but I don't recall ever seeing that happen, and it would contradict Cas needing to go to Jerusalem to pick up holy oil.
  • • It would probably take him less than a second to teleport back and forth to get the car and then go get the oil (except that another angel could catch him on the way, so yeah).
  • There are several occasions where Dean drives the impala somewhere and then Castiel teleports him somewhere else for his own safety. What happens to the car? If Castiel teleports him back to the car, he's putting him in danger.
    • It teleports itself to safety, then waits. Duh.
      • Well, God does seem to like the Impala...
      • God IS the Impala. Explains neatly how Luficer was beaten.

• The fact that we, considering the state of Raphael's Vessel in "Free to you and me", aren't going to meet Michael. I am sure he would have been awesome.
  • We see Lucifer interact with his vessel (Nick, not Sam) before being given permission to possess him, so there's no reason to suppose that Michael couldn't do the same with Dean. That actually brings up my own IJBM - why the hell hasn't Michael done so, given that from what we understand he's rearing to kick baby bro's ass again. Fair enough, he probably won't have any more luck convincing Dean than the other angels have, but isn't it at least worth a try?
  • In "The Song Remains the Same," Michael-in-John tells Dean that he won't leave him a drooling mess like the other archangels leave their vessels, so there's hope yet. And yes, he is pretty awesome.
  • Speaking of vessels, this has been bugging me non-stop: why was Anna's solution to the Apocalypse is to kill Sam? Won't that make his body free for the taking as Lucifer's vessel? I mean at first I thought it was the whole 'consent must be given' thing to acquire a vessel. But the episode before that, when Sam traded bodies with the teenage kid playing with witchcraft, the demons were so happy to hear that the kid had acquired Lucifer's vessel and told the kid to hand the body to them. Implying that with Sam's soul out of his body, him consenting is no longer necessary. Won't the same thing happened if he's dead? Who's the genius that thought up *that* ?
    • Incorrect. The implication in "Meat Swap" is that the young witch will be tricked/tortured/whatever into consenting for Lucifer. Hence the demon asking the kid if he wants power, because if there's one thing being Satan will get you, it's power.
    • In addition to the above, it seems as if angels, unlike demons, generally need living hosts. Otherwise, Zachariah would've just killed Dean off long ago so Micheal could have his meat suit. Lucifer, being an angel, albeit a fallen one, would still need a living vessel. After all, he certainly needed Nick's consent. Therefore, if Anna kills Sam and the angels don't revive him, Lucifer's true vessel is dead and rendered useless.
      • They need the vessel to say "Yes". A corpse can't do that.
    • Plus, Anna mentioned that after she kills Sam, she's going to destroy his corpse by scattering his subatomic particles across the cosmos.

• The revelation that Mary and her family were hunters. It seemed like a great idea, and unexpected, but later on it didn't make any sense that Sam and Dean wouldn't have found out about it at some point before this. Mary's family seemed like they were a respected family of hunters, that died under incredibly shady circumstances, and even if they weren't keen on working with others, that had to be noticed by other hunters. We're supposed to believe that the years John was searching for the cause of her death and presumably networking with other hunters, even some that might have known of her family, this never seemed to come up?
  • Because Hunters being killed is in no way unusual whatsoever, for starters. Secondly, it happened a damned long time ago and thirdly, it's pointed out in season 3 that Azazel buried the truth and killed most of the people who would've known. Dying in shady circumstances is rather, well, par for course of Hunter life. Notice your complaint hinges on some hunters MAYBE having known the Campbells 10 years later beyond that they died... and even if John Winchester knew, think he master of keeping things from his kids would've bothered to tell them? Seriously?
    • Some hunters work together because they're family, others for the sake of convenience, but there's no real network between them - it's just about knowing that guy who knows that other guy who works in the same field. I don't know if it's universal, but Sam and Dean in particular wouldn't have known any other hunters without Ellen's shelter and their father's old contacts.
      • The Winchesters seem to be even more paranoid than 'normal' hunters. Never mind that, though, their father kinda liked painting his wife as an innocent soul who got tragically killed by a psycho demon - thus his obsession with revenge. It was technically true, but not quite, and he probably never found out the details.

• I know it's been a while but I'm still annoyed by the end of "It's A Terrible Life" where the new angel told Dean to stop whining because his life wasn't that bad. I mean, I know the writers have to move the plot forward and that everything bad in the world happening to one character can be seriously numbing to the audience but seriously? Why go to all that trouble to Break the Cutie that violently if you just feel that he's been complaining unnecessarily all this time? It makes no sense.
  • Now that we know more about Zachariah, this is less the writers speaking through him and just plain chillingly callous from the character.
  • Also, the message of the episode in general was kind of irritating and Anvilicious: Working for a corporation is evil! Pure evil!!! Apparently even Zachariah thinks so! Also anyone would ever enjoy a corporate lifestyle has to be a "douche" according to the characters.
    • Hey, I agree with that point...
    • Thing is, not everyone does. A huge percentage of the workforce in urban areas work in a corporate office. And some people *gasp!* actually are fine with it; some people like driving Priuses (something that was considered an element of "douchebaggery" in this episode), some people enjoy eating salads for lunch (another part of the whole lifestyle that was mocked in the episode), etc. Some people actually are happy in a managerial position. Does that make them all evil douchebags? You may/may not agree with it, but it's still Anvilicious, and given the fact that the writers themselves work for a network co-owned by Warner Bros and Viacom, it may be a case of The Man Sticking It To The Man...
    • Or to put it simply, it's the whole inane Ambition Is Evil trope.
    • I actually thought it was not so much that the writers think the corporate life is douchey, but rather that Dean does. If it were Sam eating a salad or driving a Prius, no one would raise an eyebrow, but Dean? Dieting? Working a 9-to-5 job? It comes across as douchey because it's so far from his basic character traits that he's unrecognisable.
    • In season 7 Sam actually does some of those things and Dean is kinda skeptical, so it's probably exactly as you said. Not to mention that the Winchesters are all too screwed up and morally ambiguous to be used to get a point across.

• Does it seem a little improbable that every single town they go to have their local papers archived online? Some articles even dating back to the 19th century? Really?
  • Really good local archivists? A tech-savvy local historical society? It's not that weird for bigger towns, but it's difficult to suspend disbelief at times.
    • They do look through tons of real newspapers in libraries, though. Which I still don't get, because who would keep all those old newspapers? I used to live in an (admittedly not American) small town and the only archived newspapers in the library were scientific stuff for students.
    • Did they actually have everything archived on the internet? Every single newspaper? That seemed so unlikely that I found myself assuming that it's just the murder cases and other dramatic stuff.
    • There are places, mostly schools and universities all over the world that basically have the job to keep a copy of every damn thing that has ever been printed within a certain radius. So maybe the towns don't archive the newspapers online, but someone else did.

• Okay, this is kind of Meta, but isn't it very tasteless to dedicate a dead co-workers death in a episode where no-one can die?
  • ...They wish the co-worker didn't die? I would've thought that would be obvious.
    • But then they pointed out that people dying were better than the... OOh..!

• Okay, so the last scene of Heaven and Hell made me cry and it's all Jensen Ackles' fault. But there is still so much Fridge Logic here. For one thing: HOW CAN DEAN STILL FUNCTION IF HE REMEMBERS ALL OF FORTY YEARS OF HELL?! Even the sanest, most well-adjusted person would have been rocking back and forth in a padded cell and, as far I know, nobody on this show is even nearing sane and well-adjusted.
  • Because Dean Winchester is just that Badass.
  • ...No. I'm with the first guy - he was in hell longer than he'd been alive. He'd pretty much consider hell to be his "home", and one would think have reacted a wee bit more enthusiastically in the premier when he got out of his grave. And I don't care how Badass a character is, audiences and (hopefully) writers recognises that hell is a pretty bad place to be stuck, and if you send a character there you cannot have them Badass their way out of it.
    • Dean seemed pretty noticeably shaken by it, what with him crying nearly every episode since then and having flashback. Also consider that he spent the last ten years of that time being the torturer and not the victim, so while I'm sure that was traumatic, probably not as much as if he'd been getting tortured the entire time. Another thing to consider is that you're applying your idea of hell to Supernatural and judging Dean accordingly, when there's no reason to believe what Dean encountered is at all similar to what we expect of hell. Ruby even states plainly that very few portrayals of hell have gotten it right save for Hellraiser, which she admits came close. Given that John spent a year in there and never took the deal Alistair gave him, either John is the master of willpower or hell must not be nearly as bad as we think it is.
    • Even Alastair admits that John was made of "the stuff of legends".
  • Because all badasses whine and cry constantly... no... wait, I got that wrong... or you did...
    • Because it's considered badass to be emotionally dead and unfazed by being forced to commit horrible acts in exchange for not being the victim of them? Given that Dean is more or less a deconstruction of the typical badass, this makes plenty of sense for him to be so distraught while a more typical badass would be fine. The former is slightly more realistic.
    • I'm not so sure. Dean is still less heroic than the hero of a more idealistic show, but the fact that he was tortured for three decades before cracking seems far fetched to me. I'd get it if it was a years, or maybe even a few more if the character in question is incredibly badass, but for longer than he's lived on earth? I mean, come on. That's not humanly possible.
  • This troper is also pissed off about that turn of events. Four months, okay, I can take that, but 40 years?! How are you supposed to emphasize with that? Besides, when Dean was a spirit in "In My Time of Dying" he didn't remember anything when he came back to life. Why does he remember after coming back from Hell? Because an angel did it this time? You'd think an angel would be more considerate. I really liked the first three seasons of the show, but this whole Dean In Hell thing... not so much.
    • Because the angels have been so considerate thus far? In any case, it's a lot easier to forget a days worth of experiences than 40 years, and you'll note that the reaper was able to bring all of Dean's memories back with a kiss, so they couldn't have been buried that deeply.
    • I would guess it has something to do with the difference between his spirit being put back in his body (what the reaper did to him) and his body being reconstructed from/around his spirit (what I guess Castiel did).
  • It bothered me too, but I think it's common in fiction for trauma to not always be portrayed realistically, even if it's not usually this drastic. On the other hand, if it WAS portrayed realistically, Dean would be completely comatose and unable to function, making him worthless to the plot. The only in-story theory I can think of is that in Hell, a human's mind can only break so far, keeping them totally aware of what's happening. That's probably not the case, but if you really want an explanation, that's all I got.
    • You have to keep in mind, that whole "comatose and unable to function thing" probably has a lot to do with the damage to the physical neurons in the brain, which physically change in response to our experiences. Without that pesky physical brain, that wouldn't happen. After all, what good would all those freshly-damaged-souls-turned-demons be if the "conditioning" rendered them completely helpless? Admittedly, some biopsychology is a little reconcile with the whole "soul separate from your physical body" thing, and Dean was obviously affected by his stint in Hell, but given some time, I could probably come up with plausible explanation.
      • But if the soul doesn't get influenced by torture as much, what's the point of hell in the first place? Unless time passes differently there specifically for torture to work better.
  • You have to crank your suspension of disbelief up a notch: Maybe Castiel had some angelic magic mumbo jumbo that prevents Dean from breaking down under the weight of what he did in hell.
  • Perhaps the fact that he can keep going even remembering what he's been through is part of why they need him.
  • This Troper just thought that Dean didn't have his memories of Hell when he first got out, and they came back to him over the course of the next few weeks. Whether that's due to angelic manipulation or just a pitiful attempt at suppressing a past trauma is up to you. Either way, that would make it a lot easier to deal with.
    • This. It didn't seem like Dean could remember everything from the moment he crawled out of his grave. He seemed very confused and disoriented at first and I doubt everything was still crystal clear. He began to get worse and worse as the season progressed and I figure that's because his time in hell was coming back to him (probably the more he hunted and killed, re-opening those buried memories). It's possible that he was able to convince himself that it wasn't all real at first, I doubt his mind could handle it all if he didn't hide the majority of what happened from himself. Didn't Alastair have to remind Dean who he was, it didn't seem like Dean remembered anything about him until he actually SAW him with his own eyes.
    • I'd also imagine keeping Dean in-line with threats of returning him to hell (which the Angels do a lot) would be kind of hard if he doesn't remember how terrible it was. Compare his devil-may-care attitude about it for most of Season 3 to his abject fear of returning in Season 4. Without his memories he'd be back to how he was in Season 3, scared to die but defiant and naive enough about what hell is to invite it on himself.
  • We have an entire trope for how stupid this is, Out of Time, Out of Mind. And yes, it's very stupid.
  • I think I've figured it out. A soul outside of a body is resistant to change. Think of all those ghosts doing the exact same thing for 50 years straight. Given that they can go through decades as a ghost without changing much, it kind of makes sense that it would take a lot more torture for a soul in hell to get significantly affected.
    • There was also the whole deal with Sam's soul; it was stuck in the cage and gathered its own memories, while his body went around doing the same on earth. In a very far-fetched attempt to justify Dean's issues, I'd say that the brain and the soul 'remember' in two different ways, meaning that when Castiel recreated Dean's body, it restarted from the personality he's had at the moment he died, and for whatever reason, only later remembered the memories that came with his soul. Okay, that made a very limited amount of sense.

• The family's repeated issues. Mary can't stand the thought of John dying, so she sells her soul (kind of) to save him. John can't stand the thought of Dean dying so he sells his soul to save him. Dean can't stand the thought of Sam dying so he sells his soul to save him. And then Sam can't stand the thought of Dean dying but by now the demons have thought that this whole thing has gotten a bit ridiculous and refuse to do the deal. Am I the only one who agrees with the demons on this?
  • It must be in the genes.
  • To be fair, you could probably write a whole essay on this. For example, it wasn't just Mary sad at John dying, John represented her hope for escaping the hunter life (sweetened by Azazel promising a quiet life too), etc. Of course, Bobby, demons and nearly everybody makes jokes about the Winchesters' "need" for self sacrifice.
  • I found that quite convincing, actually. If you look at screwed-up families in Real Life, they're constantly repeating the exact same mistakes over and over.
  • I'm actually more bothered about how the whole family - Especially Dean - harps on this and yet they tend to forget Adam.
    • Adam is more of a possibility to the brothers than an actual family member. Sam and Dean are so obsessed with each other because they've basically been driven into it since they were kids, and Adam is basically a stranger to them. The amount of attention they spent on him was about right at first, until Dean chose Sam over him and everyone conveniently forgot that the poor kid is still stuck in the cage.

• Ruby. Just... Ruby. One, how is she (apparently) the only demon in hell who's still sane/possessing of half-a-conscience? Two, if she isn't, why is she bothering to lie about it now that she's clearly got at least Sam's side and the fact that the angels aren't so awesome at the morality bit either? And three, she's only a black-eye, so why the hell haven't the other demons, or at least Lilith or one of the other white-eyes caught wind of her "good" deeds and torn her into itty bitty shreds with her own knife? Why isn't she worried about the fact that she has a knife that could destroy her just as much as the next demon? It's like a human casually walking around with a live grenade with the pin out. Okay, I'm done.
  • Ruby's ambition is apparently to hitch her star to Sam's wagon and become the Bride of Antichrist, and thus eventually Queen of Hell. If that requires faking half-a-conscience or risking death from a demon knife, well, that's why they call it a 'high-risk-high-return' strategy.
    • Listen, I know the fanbase has a lot of problems regarding Ruby, but the simple answer is, we don't know. We don't know why she remembers, we don't know why she's helping the bros. I don't think she's a double agent, but to just go the route of "I'm bad, but not that bad" would be anticlimactic. As with most other things regarding the mythology of the show, we'll just have to wait and see.
  • Yeah, frankly it seems like a big ole' use-your-questionable-powers-to-stop-big-bad-evil Xanatos Roulette is the most plausible explanation for Ruby.
    • Make that "Resurrect the Big Bad".
    • Confirmed at the end of season 4.
      • She probably wasn't intended to be likable. At the time, Dean was the relatively reliable one of the two brothers and wanted nothing to do with her, while Sam's actions at the time, especially trusting her, were gradually shown to be bad, until he ended up releasing Lucifer. Ruby was kinda like a parallel factor to him 'going darkside'.

• Ruby's a fan of french fries, which, even doused with ketchup are fairly salty. Did the writers forget salt repels demons when they came up with that bit of characterization?
  • Three theories for that one:
    • It's a masochism thing. Maybe she likes her food with a little pain. After all, humans eat jalapenos.
    • Salt works as a ghost and demon repellant because it stands for purity. Once it's on the fries it's not pure anymore and loses its effect.
    • It's supposed to be pure salt. As in, the dry white stuff that the hunters put in the entrance. Otherwise, the human body itself would've hurt demons to some degree. You know, the salt in the cells and in sweat and such.

• Is it just me or did it look suspiciously like Dean's fault that everything bad happened in "In The Beginning"? He unwittingly told YED everything YED was going to do to his family, all without realizing before it was too late that Grampa wasn't Grampa. It was almost like Castiel (who, to his credit, didn't sound too happy about it) sent him back to learn some of those pesky secrets that Sam's been keeping (and FFS, Sam, stop leaving your brother!) and to learn why it happened. So tell me how it's not his fault? Because the three options - Dean caused it/Dean had to cause it/Dean is going to beat himself up over it - are all looking incredibly cruel to me.
  • Castiel indicated that it would have happened with or without Dean, proving the point that you can't fight fate.
    • Is it just me, or is that particular Aesop extremely inappropriate for this show? Or I guess appropriate if you believe Sam is going to be evil.
      • To the above, I offer three words to explain that: Stable Time Loop. Can't change the past, but the future's not set.
        • But isn't the future just the past that hasn't happened yet? err that the present tomorrow is the past of the day after that? I mean, now is not the end of time... the end of time is, before that is all past.
          • Well, that's a matter of interpretation. Maybe there IS a set present in their universe. Not much of an argument, though, because Cas and Gabriel both changed the past at least once. Cas probably believed that the past can't be changed at that point, and changed his mind at some point before the mess with the fates and the titanic.

• Has anyone else been left reeling from the stupidity of the recent revelation that demons are all just damned souls? Besides making them less scary and interesting, how exactly are they any different from the ghosts that the boys are used to?
  • 'Cause they've been spiritually stripped down to an inhuman state.
  • Also, they are harder to get rid of than ghosts.
  • Look at this way: Dean thinks Ruby was lying through her teeth when she said she was a demon with a heart of gold and demons lie anyway so we don't have to believe a single word she says. By the way, Ruby, obviously Sam can deal with the war on his own. Have you seen him lately? The boy's a fifteen foot tall badass!
  • This troper thinks it makes them CREEPIER: That a normal, simple human being could be turned into the kind of monsters we see on show sends shivers down my spine. Dean's story of his forty years in Hell just makes it even worse.
  • It reminded this troper of a story where a man was condemned to hell, and when he asked what the instruments of torture did, was told by a hideous, malformed, barely humanoid creature that he'd know, soon enough, in excruciating detail. It tortures him for a few million years, then for another few million years he's required to torture himself. At the end of this part, another him walks into the room, a few aeons younger and still looking human, and asks him what the instruments on the wall do. Loop complete. Frickin' mindscrew if you look at it that way, especially if you notice the implication that Dean's escape might be permanent (for one thing, consider the first bug on the page, How is he still "normal" after remembering perfectly 40 years in hell, and think about how he himself was a torturer for the last ten years of that time.)
  • The story you're referring is a short story by Neil Gaiman called 'Other People' and can be found in the short story collection 'Fragile Things'. Yes it is freakin' creepy.
    • Still, the fact that Lucifer turned Lilith into a demon kinda canonizes the whole demons-are-former-humans thing. I have a little issue with that: What about the demon from S 1 E 4, which was, according to Sam, part of a Japanese class of demons that represent disasters? Not to mention the personification of the sins. How do humans become something like that?
      • When Dean asked whether all demons were once human, she said "Everyone I know of", which I interpret as "Everyone I had an opportunity to ask" - so well, I'll go with the idea that some demons are former damned humans.
    • Another question: Hell is supposed to be a place for punishment and stuff, so why does it make evil minions instead?
      • Well, it is operated by demons, and it took several angels to save one soul, so heaven probably doesn't decide the purpose of hell (and in season 7, Crowley gets kinda upset at Cas deciding to pick which soul goes where, probably showing that angels didn't have control over that either)... And the bible has been stated to have mistakes in it, so here you go, we have an automatic justification.

• Am I missing something here? Is Dean supposed to be a morally unbreakable Saint while Sam is a mess of flaws and could easily become the Anti-Christ or is it just certain members of Fan Dumb population who think that? I'm sure there's justification for it but, from what I can see, Dean isn't (and probably never will be) inherently good and Sam isn't inherently evil. So what are they on about?
  • I don't know how anyone would get that impression. If anything, Dean tilts more in the Anti-Hero direction than Sam, who's usually the one worried about the moral implications. And the Antichrist bit has more to do with Sam's Psychic Powers than his personality.
  • Not that I necessarily agree, but here's the basis for that speculation: we know that Sam has demonic powers, and the writers have been foreshadowing him going evil since season 1. The writers have also been foreshadowing brother-vs-brother since season 1 (think 'Asylum') though it became most obvious in season 2, with the whole save-or-kill business, and has been continued in season 3 (for instance, the ghosts in 'Red Sky At Morning'). If Sam is probably going to go Darkside and Dean is going to oppose him, like they've been foreshadowing, then by default Dean is on the "good" side. Also, in the sides for 'Lazarus Rising', some fans speculate that "Guy" is actually Dean, and that Castiel--who rescues Guy and tells him that he (Castiel) has a job for Guy--is an angel, which means that now Dean has some sort of angelic mission/destiny while Sam has a demonic one. And, not to lessen Sam, whom I love also, but Dean is the more self-sacrificing of the two, a more "saintly" virtue. But don't get too upset, it's just speculation.
  • And I think it might be more of a reaction to the writers than anything seen/proved onscreen. For example, some episodes in Season Two had "Sam the Perfect" while Dean was such a mess that it might have been better for him to put a bullet in his brain. If you take the Alternate Universe theory of "What Is And What Should Never Be" then pretty much all his good qualities are the result of all the pain in his life. His Mum didn't die therefore no pain, no good qualities. The Dean!Girls get pissed, try to make it better. The Sam!Girls are probably just as bad as well, seeing how Dean can be viewed as a Golden Martyr and Sam could just be a Zombie with Demon Blood in him. It works both ways.
  • Eric Kripke has stated in an interview that he considers Dean the "hero" of the show, and he's certainly got to do more things in the fourth season so far than Sam has. This probably contributes to the fangirls who can't see his flaws.
    • I think it has something to do with the nature of their issues. Dean's screwed up, no doubt, but it sometimes seems pretty subtle compared to Sam using demonic powers, opening the cage, going around soulless and shooting at his hallucinations of Satan. Most of it isn't even his fault entirely, but he gets blamed in-series, so if that's what a fan wants to see, then it's all right there, while Dean hasn't topped Sam at jerkassness since season 2. Still, the notion that Dean is good and Sam is bad is really primitive, considering how much the series zigzagged their roles and the whole martyrdom business.

• I just had to ask; why does everyone hate John Winchester so much? I'm not saying he's Daddy Of The Year but can't everything be blamed on his wife's tragic death? He might have treated them like soldiers but he had to, they wouldn't have had survived otherwise. So why he does he get treated like an Abusive Parent?
  • Mary's death definitely was responsible for the way John raised his sons, and he was doing the best he could, but he still abused his sons. For instance, he would leave them alone "for days at a time" (Dean, All Hell Breaks Loose 2) when they were very young. For instance, we see in Something Wicked that when Sam was still a toddler (and remember Dean is only four years older than Sam) John left them totally alone for several days to fend for themselves, including getting food and fighting off supernatural creatures. Same in A Very Supernatural Christmas. Also, he emotionally abused his sons, especially Dean. He made Dean "grow up too fast" (John, In My Time Of Dying), instilled in him a pathological need to protect his brother Sam, and frequently lashed out at him in anger when Dean hadn't actually done anything (Something Wicked, Dead Man's Blood the car incident), which Dean accepted as being his fault. So although he was doing his best to care for his sons and kill Yellow-eyes, he was still abusive and mentally screwed up both his sons (particularly Dean).
  • The problem isn't that he moved them around or treated them like soldiers, the problem is that there was just so fricking many things he did wrong that couldn't be blamed on the demon. Yes, Dean did wrong in Something Wicked (but come on, the boy was 9 years old, most adults can't stay cooped up that long) but John had no right to let him think that he had never forgiven him and he also didn't have the right to basically say "Go clean up the mess you made, you fuck up" 17 years later. There was no excuse for Dean's extreme parentification and there's no excuse either for blaming Sam for Dean's impending death in My Time Of Dying. Because of the writing and JDM's acting, I pity him so very much (and a lot of the other haters do too) but, and this goes for Sam's treatment of Dean in Hunted and Dean's batshit crazy behavior in Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things, even if you are hurting it still doesn't give you the right to be a Jerkass. Although, it could have been worse; in an early draft of the Pilot, he jokes with a six month year old Sam (while Dean was still in the motherfucking room) that he needs to grow up fast so he can have Dean's room. And this was before his Freudian Excuse of Mary dying. Thank God they didn't put that in or he would have become, instantly, the worst father on the planet.
  • In John's defense, if one looks at it in extreme practical terms, he WAS right in season 2 that Dean wouldn't be dying if Sam had managed to shoot him. It was an awful thing to say, and he shouldn't blame Sam for being human, but he was essentially right.
  • Did John use his kids as bait in Something Wicked? Why would he go after a monster that preyed and preferred to feed on children first? Also Dean didn't do anything wrong when the monster attacked Sam in his bed. Dean was armed with a gun, but it was a shotgun. If he would have pulled the trigger and shot the monster at that range he would have killed his brother at the same time. Also, more to the bait theory. John shows up just in time to shoot the monster and drive it off, how did he do that? The only reason had to be that he was using his kids as bait for the monster and pinned his failure to kill it on Dean doing something wrong by not pulling the trigger or leaving. John must have had that all planned out from the beginning, because surely their had to be plenty of other hunters with no kids at all to deal with this threat. John just had the perfect bait, and he was the one who screwed up all along and blamed Dean for "Taking a break on the job." This has always been a lingering question in my mind, but John always seemed like a "Whatever it takes." Kind of guy.

• I've just come onto the show after hearing all about it on here and I have to ask; Where's the angst I keep hearing about? It's a lightweight show about two brothers on a roadtrip and that's all I see. Nobody being Driven to Suicide, no "depression", no "disheartening moments"... Or am I just blind?
  • Erm...how far along are you in it? The first part of the first season is mostly angstless, besides Sam's grief over Jessica's death. I would say that it starts getting depressing/angsty in Nightmare, proceeds with Asylum, Something Wicked, and Shadow, and the season finale Devil's Trap is very depressing/disturbing, but it really gets into the depressing swing of things in the second season. Notably angsty episodes in the 2nd season include Children Shouldn't Play With Dead Things, Crossroad Blues, Croatoan, Hunted, Playthings, Born Under A Bad Sign, What Is And What Should Never Be, the end of All Hell Breaks Loose I and all of All Hell Breaks Loose 2. Then pretty much all of season 3 is misery, due to Dean's deal. Trust me on this one. Keep going. It becomes all we say it is.
  • Oh man, to be that new and naive again. Strange Angel has pretty much noted all the episodes, although I would put "In My Time Of Dying", "Faith", "Home" and "Scarecrow" up there as well. And are you okay for spoilers? Because here we go; John is an abusive bastard who put the mission first, basically committed suicide in the most self-righteous way possible and both his boys have desperately wanted suicide at some point as well. Dean falls apart in Season Two and never really gets better, Sam loses it completely in Season Three and is only going to get worse and at about the time of Croatoan/Hunted/Playthings their relationship got twisted into something (while still incredibly compelling) nasty, clingy and unhealthy. They're about to be tormented by people they had failed to save, Dean's going to have PTSD from coming back from hell and will have to claw his way out of his own grave, Sam's going to be suicidally reckless and if Teen!John (in the time-travel episode) is in anyway decent, then it'll be tragic knowing how he ends up. But, in a weird way, I think it was always going to be as bleak as this. The first half of the first season was relatively angstless but there was a missing father, two estranged brothers (and Dean with a serious abandonment problem), a dead mother and a dead girlfriend by the pilot and things tended to get worse from there. And if you look at early drafts of The Pilot, things get worse because Sam, Dean and John are in no way sympathetic. Sam is a prissy jackass who accuses Dean of being a serial killer, Dean really is a worthless (and violent - I think he punches Sam at least once) bastard who needs to be smacked down at every opportunity (and who is already "tired" i.e suicidal), John is already the worst father in the world even before Mary dies and there's pretty much no love lost between any of them. My advice: Watch the cracky episodes (Hell House/Tall Tales/Hollywood Babylon/Bad Day At Black Rock) as much as you can. You'll need 'em.
    • Or just don't watch a show that relies on angst for all of its characterization.
  • A premise: I like Supernatural. However, while the show's content and plot are indeed very dark (relatives and friends dying left and right, deals with the devil, apocalypse approaching...), the tone isn't particularly. It's about two badass attractive young men travelling around America, killing monsters, banging hot women and cracking jokes at each other. Even when a character has been in hell for years, he comes back not as a shell of a man but in a rather jolly good mood. While there are creepy and even terrible moments, the tone is still dominated by the Rule of Cool and Badassery. And I personally see it as a deliberate choice by the writers. Tragedies happen, but they do not permeate the whole series. Lovecraft (whatever is other flaws may be) is dark, when you are faced with hellish creature you can't possibly defeat and who will swallow us whole - while the rest of the universe doesn't give a shit about humanity. A show where two cool brothers and their kickass friends slaughter demons left and right isn't dark. It's fun. Nothing wrong with that, of course.

• What bugs me is hearing how amaaaaazing this show is from my friend non-stop, even though this troper here can admit everything wrong with the Twilight series and still enjoy it. I've never noticed the misogynistic/homophobic/racist (and creepy brotherly love) shit before in this show. Anybody care to elaborate for me?
  • Um... our fandom is just insane, honestly. I'm not sure what you mean by misogynistic, etc. Not much more issues than most media has to deal with, anyway. Basically, the brotherly love thing is that both of the boys don't seem to be able to accept death, especially the part that means you have to survive by yourself. There's all sorts of interpretations of this, but there's good evidence the clinginess isn't 100% positive.
  • I noticed the way they write/treat female characters, particularly recurring female characters but I always thought at least part of it had to do with the powers that be listening to the some fan(girl)s and there need to have no girls ever come between the brothers so they keep getting rid of possible love interests and cutting storylines short (coughJocough) so there's not that much character development... Also with the case of Ruby and Bela, there was that writer's strike that year, they probably had to rush through instead of delving deeper into both characters. It happened with a lot of other shows.
    • Uh, also....racist? Homophobic?
  • "Racist" because every black character seems to be/become bad (Isaac the hunter in "The Magnificent Seven", Gordon, Uriel, Henriksen) and eventually, dead. "Homophobic" because only two characters are explicitly gay (one of the nerds in "Ghostfacers" and the psychic girl who can kill people by touching them in "All Hell breaks loose") and they die soon after (the guy even dying two times). Also because some people think it's homophobic to make jokes about Sam and Dean thought to be together by other characters, and that not having minorities among the main characters must mean it's racist.
    • Yes, I'm sure they write scripts, get actors, then change the story immediately if they find out they have any black actors.
    • Given that we've had...quite a few black characters who survived-Rufus, Cassie, etc. Seems more people blowing things out of proportion big time than anything actually in the show.
      • The first season was the biggest offender in this regard... To my knowledge, the only black people who showed up at all were in the Very Special Episode dealing with racism (quite possibly the worst episode of that season), completely absent from every other episode. Once the show went from the WB to the CW, more black folks started showing up.
    • What part of Anyone Can Die do people not understand? Being black/gay doesn't make you immortal...
      • It's a matter of percentages. 100% of the gay characters die, while probably only about 10-15% of the straight characters die. That's a huge, startling difference. See the television show "The Wire" for an almost-perfect treatment of gay characters... Several gay characters among the huge ensemble cast, their being gay mentioned and shown explicitly, but not being the primary focus of their characters (each having distinguishable independent personalities). Some prominent, others being just bit parts. Some live, some die. As fun as this show is, Supernatural (along with most other shows currently on television) is behind the curve on this one.
      • 100% of the gay die because there are only two gay characters. And there's a lot more than 15% of straight characters who die (actually, only Bobby is safe for now).
        • There are precisely three human characters who are probably safe. This show is slaughter-happy with a lot of people, black or white, straight or gay. I don't remember being gay being the centerpieces of the characters in Supernatural, either. One just mentions she had a girlfriend.
        • Actually, the gay death rate is now down to 50% after "The Real Ghostbusters". Demian and Barnes are portrayed as two happy gay men in a loving relationship, and both survive the episode. I'm not saying that the show has fixed all of its issues, but they're making progress.

• • • • • Also, isn't Crowley gay? And personally, I think its better that they include homosexuals in the show (even if they're killed, considering nearly every temporary character is killed) rather than just never having any. I honestly don't think its an attack against homosexuals. Most of the minor characters that make an appearance are there to die.

• I've noticed the black tendency but I hardly think it's a racist tendency. In modern culture there's been a common trend to have the black guy playing God or at least the leader of the military unit, they're disproportionally represented in these sort of positions. Supernatural has very clear loathing for such authority (miliary, god, etc...), and since the image is already stuck in our heads, might as well go along with it. Note that most of the dead black characters have been authority figures: Uriel, the FBI agent, Gordon (who Dean tries to make the surrogate daddy).

• This isn't related directly to the show itself, but it's become irritating enough that I want to bring it up here. I've noticed that when Supernatural is mentioned in entries related to characterization, they tend to be overly emotional and biased, especially in regards to John Winchester. For example, I just removed this from the "Informed Ability" page

"John Winchester was supposedly a great hunter. How, exactly? He had falling outs with just about everyone, he never told his sons anything unless they begged, he got Ellen's husband killed... the guy was a failure." How the hell does a person understand "good hunter" as "good at social interaction"? Anyone should be able to tell that the worth of a hunter is measured by their ability to track and kill monsters. This is just one example of the Complaining About Characters You Don't Like that tends to plague Supernatural trope examples. So I'm asking, is this just evidence of how unreasonable the fanbase is, or is it mostly the fault of one bad editor?

• • The fanbase is definitely a little wacko; though it's probably one single editor if the tone of the comments is always the same.
  • While those particular points aren't relevant, John is a case of Informed Ability. We consistently hear about what a great hunter he is, but the few times he's on screen and given the chance to plan anything it always goes off the rails and Dean and Sam have to come and save his dumb ass: he'd probably have been killed by the vampires in "Dead Man's Blood" had they not disobeyed a direct order and come back to help him, his plan to try and buy time by fooling Meg with the fake Colt in "Salvation" didn't work and led to his being kidnapped which gave the YED the opportunity to possess him (thus bypassing their anti-demon precautions, which they set up after they were all inside) who then proceeded to almost kill Dean while wearing his father's face, not to mention his decision in "Something Wicked" to leave his 11 and 7 year old sons alone for three days while hunting something that kills children and specifically targets those with siblings. In "Time Is On My Side" they even had to go back and kill someone John thought he'd killed years before. Bang up job there, Johnny. So in short (too late): good thesis, bad supporting arguments.
  • For the "Something Wicked" point, there is always the argument that John was lying in wait for the shtriga (Monster of the Week) to attack his kids, relying on Dean to hold it off until John got there (excellent timing, arriving JUST after the shtriga did). However, if that was the case, the plan might have gone better if Dean had known about it.
  • Except that he's still alive after hunting solo for over a decade (if you skip the years where Sam and Dean were old enough to hunt in the middle). From what we've seen of hunters, you don't really live to be as old as John did unless either you're semi-retired, or you're just that good, especially if you hunt solo. Most of the hunters we do see, and who die, had a partner. In a way, his survival is proof enough. Though it is true that we don't get to see him being that good, we don't really get to see him much at all.
    • My point exactly. John isn't the main character. His sons are. If he just showed up and solved all their problems by being the Badass hunter that he is, the show would really suck. So, of course, he's going to make bad decisions that require the boys' intervention. This isn't a plot hole. This is just good writing.

• Ok, this is just weird to me. In "Dead Man's Blood" John said that a vampire hive, with dozens of vampires in it, could spend weeks bleeding out their victims, and apparently they only took one or two victims at a time. This tells me that each vampire actually requires relatively little blood to survive (or only requires it after long intervals). But when the "good" vampires roll around, they kept slaughtering cattle. Wouldn't it have attracted less attention if they had just taken a few sips from a different cattle every time, since nothing would have been killed? I mean, what are the hunters going to do? Examine every cow in the country for minor cuts that could just as easily have been caused by run-ins with barbed wire?
  • No real answer. My off-the-cuff explanation would be that vampires, having once been human, can live much more effectively on human blood, but require much more animal blood to survive. Not a perfect explanation, but I think it works...
  • So why can't they buy blood from a butcher or something? I would have thought most butchers would be pretty happy to sell it - admittedly I've never tested this theory. And saying they want to stay below the radar isn't good enough. Cattle mutilations are a damn sight more suspicious than an increase in the sales of blood.
    • Presumably Dead Cow's blood would be just as poisonous to them as Dead Man's blood.

• Speaking of vampires, how come the girl turned in "Dead Man's Blood" immediately jumped on the vampire bandwagon and the ones in "Fresh Blood" didn't, to put it mildly?
  • The ones in "Fresh Blood" did go all bloodlust driven—Lucy didn't even know what she'd become, she thought she'd been drugged, but still started chasing Dean when he cut his arm open. If she'd had a name for what was happening she might well have gone more obviously evil after realizing it wasn't going to wear off. The other two girls Dixon was changing were restrained and then killed by Gordon, who after being turned also killed someone almost immediately after freeing himself. The vampires in "Bloodlust" had had to make the conscious pragmatic decision to refrain from killing humans, but Lenore's later behavior indicated it was still a struggle to pass up human blood because they only stopped hunting humans to stop humans hunting them—it had nothing to do with not wanting to be evil, just not wanting to invite hunters' attention. The show may have non-dangerous vampires but there aren't any fluffy cuddly ones around yet, thank heavens.
    • Not the bloodlust. The fact that she immediately became part of the vampire nest. She alerted the other vampires to the guys, stopped Kate from getting herself killed attacking the guys, and went off with the other vampires at the end. They killed her boyfriend! The implication was clearly that vamping someone brings them into the fold. They changed it.
      • Perhaps the girl in "Dead Man's Blood" had Stockholm Syndrome.

• How does the YED have blood to feed Sam and the other babies? Isn't he just disembodied smoke at that point? Just saying.
  • Err, no he's not?
    • So he was possessing someone? But then how did he get in their house? More to the point, wouldn't it then just be the blood of the body he was possessing? Not demon blood?
    • He was probably possessing someone because demons, when they're not in hell, are always seen possessing someone. He probably get in their house like any burglar with demon superpowers would do (like by jumping to an open window, breaking a door or whatever). And for some reasons, blood of someone possessed = demon blood in this universe (as we clearly see with Sam drinking Ruby's and demon mook's blood).
    • Explained in season 4's "In the Beginning", Azazel had been making deals with parents to be to come into their house years later.
    • How did he get in? Demons can teleport.

• The whole angel/demon concept just bugs me.
  • And, more precisely...?
    • Ordinarily, the show's writers do their research relatively well. But when they get into this pseudo-religious stuff, all that just gets thrown away. I could deal with it if they made it clear they were making a clean break from the Judeo-Christian understanding of angels and demons, but they keep just enough of the stories and images to make it annoying when they get the underlying principles and theology so very, very wrong. It's not that it offends my religion or anything, I just like things to be right. But you know, even that I could deal with, but it leads them to mess up other stuff too, the good old-fashioned monster of the week stuff. Suddenly Samhain isn't just a Celtic holiday, it's an actual entity? A demon? And we can't even say its freaking NAME right?! This is what happens when we get too wrapped up in writing the demon storyline—we can't stop! Not even for pronunciation! Maybe it's splitting hairs and I should just relax, but I can't help it; it just bugs the hell out of me. I can only suspend my disbelief so long. Sorry.
      • Apparently you can't suspend your disbelief as well as you think you can. Oh no, they change mythology. You're aware there's a fine line between 'getting it wrong' and 'intentionally changing,' right? Or did you also throw a fit when they made a Vanir a murderous scarecrow?
      • Also, even though you perceive Christian perception of angels/demons to be the "right" one because it is the dominant religion you have been exposed to, there are two other major monotheistic world religions with their own mythology on angles and demons, and as such the show takes aspects from all three.
        • • ^^^ And screws them up as well. So Kripke basically, in a continuous fit of misanthropy, took every religion he could think of (I have yet to see Buddhism) and just made them all cannibals. Metaphorical, literal, whatever. And incestuous. And somehow communicating with each other. Because obviously Kali is off eating human people with her step-son Ganesha who somehow went from elephant-head to full elephant. And is banging Loki, the trickster.
            • That depends on how you define "screws up". They spin their own take on every mythological creature, spirit or deity they use. Most of the tales for all these religions supposedly happened millennia ago. It's actually less realistic to assume everything is exactly the same now as it was back then, like most shows do; especially for religions in which power-shifts weren't unheard of. Perhaps they all experienced what the pagan god that Paris Hilton played as a cameo did: worship favour ran out for whatever reason and it had to go underground to survive. They claim they were "here first", despite the Judeo-Christian God apparently creating everything, so perhaps at some point angels returned to enforceme the path towards the Apocalypse by removing most of the obvious physical gods from power, making them have to go into hiding. They seem to equate themselves to God in the series (whom Death then puts himself on possibly equal power with) though there is obviously a difference in power. The show has yet to define what a "pagan god" is. Are they a species of powerful spirit or just a term for various supernatural creatures that are immortal and were worshipped. ("Tricksters" are seemingly defined separately, and maybe so are forest gods, etc...) Lucifer (a powerful angel) is shown to be able to kill them outright. As for Ganesha’s appearance it isn’t important whatsoever in the lore of the show, and was only used for a moment of humour. I suppose if you outright saw an elephant headed being it would click right there what is going on rather than merely it seeming weird there’s an elephant in the room.
            • Actually, by the logic of the show, it's US, the HUMANS who have it wrong. The Bible? The Qur'an? The Torah? All filled with ridiculous inaccuracies. Castiel (I think) even states this, outright. "Your Bible gets more wrong than it does right." Granted, this IS just a way to say "We can make up whatever rules we want" but still, it is a valid explanation.

• Plus a good amount of other randomness. maybe I'm just projecting my own thoughts on the subject on to the original troper's post, but I thought they were saying they were bugged by the inconsistency, not that it wasn't conforming to their view of the subject. Certain concepts carry certain implications, so when you mix and match * without much thought* ...as the last season, awesome as it was did...you end up with a completely internally inconsistent mess.
  • What inconsistency, now? And the original poster's post made it pretty clear they were throwing a massive fit over just changing the concept of angels and demons
    • Massive fit is a bit of an exaggeration, don't you think? As for the inconsistencies I was thinking of, it's more kind of stuff like....oh, well, since the Supernatural universe doesn't seem to operate on belief-makes-it-real principles, the fact that exorcisms and holy water work should carry certain implications...but a lot of the other stuff they've thrown in there with this whole angel and apocalypse storyline go against it. and then you've got Lucifer, the fallen angel, but demons as people, with other fallen angels presumably being just human, like Anna, but then angels like Uriel still being angels...and I seriously do not want to get into the mess that is the "I don't have feelings and that makes me sad" angels and the whole grace thing, because then I'd have to think about a certain wallbanger of an episode. Damn it! But anyway, it can be kind of a mess if it wants to. It's still fun, and the leads are still eye-candy. And that's all that really matters, right? ;)
      • • For the angels thing, falling seems to mean more that they don't obey God than anything else. When Anna fell, she chose to rip out her grace so that the other angels couldn't find her and either kill her or send her to be tortured until she changed her mind like they eventually did. Lucifer, on the other hand, seems to have been imprisoned in Hell. Uriel and the other angels didn't fall because they were obeying orders. with God being MIA and all, the archangels were probably left in charge. If Micheal and Raphael made that decision, the angels aren't disobeying orders, especially since so few of them seem to have any idea what's up with God. As for the holy water, I'd always assumed that it was the chant/blessing that made it holy. I mean, for all we know, the church could've decided to use that blessing specifically because it burns demons. Not to mention the part where the Judeo-Christian God actually exists for both the exorcisms and the holy water. And then, obviously, Lucifer twisted human souls that went to Hell enough to strip them of their humanity and create the first demons. As for angels being emotionless, they're supposed to follow God's orders, and that's basically it. It's not that they're incapable of having emotions, so much as they either never learned to have them, or learned not to have them.
      • How, precisely does the angel storyline go against the exorcism and holy water aspects exactly? Let alone the fallen angels presumably becoming human? Or the demons as humans? So, what do they 'get wrong' exactly? Still failing to see how not strictly following theology is blatantly just 'getting it wrong.'
      • Who said anything about strictly following theology? There's about a million of them anyway. It's just about consistent world building. Take the angel example. If angels don't have free will, it shouldn't make sense that they can "choose" to fall. If you're going to do the fantasy kitchen sink, do the fantasy kitchen sink. Or don't. It can be done well, just look at Neil Gaiman. Mish-mashes, though, need to be done intelligently or you do end up with inconsistencies, especially when it comes to what various elements carry with them, because they can conflict.
        • Did it ever actually say that angels don't have free will? (I'm not saying that it didn't, I just don't remember). If they did, well then there you go, but if they didn't, then it isn't so much that angels don't have free will, they just don't utilize it. Kind of like soldiers who always obey orders. They have the ability to spit in their superior's face if they want to, but - generally speaking - they won't. Same with angels (and this is obviously just speculation), they have the ability to go against orders, but usually won't. Those that do choose to utilize that free will might rip out their grace and fall to Earth, beginning a new life as a human.
        • That was one Angel's opinion and given how they're meant to just be good, unquestioning little soldiers, it makes sense. The world building is more often than not very consistent.

• As a devout Christian, this troper was highly bugged and highly disturbed by Zachariah's "God has left the building" comment. I know that Anna said that only four angels had ever seen God, but still. All four angels have the exact same agenda? Not one of the four disagrees with the others on how things should get done?
  • Speaking of Zachariah, you're telling me that in Heaven, Zack is calling the shots!? Just...No.
    • When did they even indicate that Zachariah is 'calling the shots?' There's pretty obviously not just one boss. As for the 'devout Christian' comment? You're basing all of this over what's steadily being revealed? We don't know who the four angels are or their whereabouts. And this show is not going by straight Christian lore.
      • Four guardian angels. Four angels who've seen God. Gee, I wonder who?
  • The giant white light that saved Castiel's life recently is a big hint that God is paying more attention than Zachariah gives Him credit for. (Sure, Zachariah says that Lucifer did it. Zachariah is obviously kidding himself, as saving Castiel's life immediately lead to notable inconvenience for Lucifer, re: Sam being concealed from Lucifer's sight.)
  • As is later revealed, one of those four angels is Lucifer, and obviously not included, one is also MIA (pretending to be the Trickster), and so it's really only two angels that have to agree, Raphael and Michael. Neither of whom is exactly nice. To answer the comment below that, Zachariah is very, very far from in charge. He basically got fired in one episode.
    • Just to point out, this conversation has turned up twice on this page. For the free will thing, what exactly defines free will is very complicated, as it relates directly to human consciousness, so in the case of the show, let the writers interpret it as they want. And as far as consistency goes, I find it ironic that people are complaining about how Supernatural doesn't stay faithful to whatever religion it's supposed to stay faithful to since religion is one of the most inconsistent things in the history of mankind. There are inconsistencies in the world building? There are inconsistencies in real life, nothing is perfect there's no point stating the obvious.
    • 1. You're a devout Christian (as am I) and this is the first thing in this show to bug you (or at least to bug you enough for you to put it on this page)? 2. It's fiction.
    • So is the Christian mythology which the show is based on, yet when that's stated, I bet it bugs you, doesn't it? Just saying, YMMV on what bugs may or may not arise.
    • Different troper here, but yes, it does. I don't publicly denounce your mythology (or lack thereof) as fiction; please do me the same courtesy. Please don't insult other people's religious beliefs on here. This is a discussion of a fictional show and there's really no need to resort to that.

• The feral children in Family Remains are able to write, quite clearly and without error, in crayon and blood. Feral children. Feral children who cannot even speak English. Where would they learn how to read? Who would teach them? And how would they get so good at writing?
  • They - or at least the girl - seemingly can speak English. The family's son says she told him that she wants him to stay and everyone else to leave.

• This Troper is bugged by the fact that Uriel is not in fact an Archangel. Considering Uriel is generally lumped in with the Archangels (the most common being Archangel Gabriel, Raphael, Archangel Michael and Uriel, although Uriel being omitted is quite common), it's just annoying to me that he's been bumped down to normal Angel status.
  • Bugs me too, but it seems as though heaven is a shifting bureaucracy he could have been demoted.
  • You have a good point there...
    • Or they could be lying about who he is.
    • Michael may have demoted Uriel after Uriel attacked the parents of Michael's one true vessel.
      • Who is and who isn't an Archangel changes depending on which denomination or religion your looking at; sometimes theres up to seven or eight, in other churches/religions, there are as few as three. Often, different denominations have the same number of Archangels, but almost completely different angels as those Archangels.
        • Technically speaking, Archangel can be taken to mean the "top angel", similar to it's use in the word Archbishop. This would mean only one Archangel, presumably Michael. As the above troper said, the term Archangel means different things for different denominations.

• What was the point in manipulating Sam to kill Lilith anyway? We know that the angels wanted for Armageddon to start. So, let's say that in Lucifer Rising, Dean succeeded in persuading Sam not to kill Lilith. What happens? An archangel can just pop in and smite the crap out of Lilith. Bam, Apocalypse happens. Or, if the angels can't do it, just find a human willing to kill a demon (shouldn't be too hard) and give him the Colt or some other demon-killing weapon.
  • Some demons can't be killed by the knife (like Alastair IIRC) and the colt was in the hands of Lilith Crowley, a demon. Presumably the only thing that could kill her was the "special children"'s powers.
  • Also Sam is Lucifer's vessel, so presumably it wasn't absolutely necessary that he be the one kill Lilith, just that he be in that place at the time Lucifer rises. Notice Lucifer has to scramble and settle for a far less effective vessel when Sam is teleported away.
  • Which incidentally blows a hole in the theory that Lucifer teleported them, making it much more likely that it actually was God.
  • Personally I believe the that God was the one who did all the teleporting, but just wanted to point this out: Lucifer has confronted Sam several times, and let him go, both because he believes he already knows when Sam will accept him and because he wants Sam to accept him on his own, rather than being somehow tricked into it. I'd buy that Lucifer was afraid his rising would kill Sam, or otherwise make it impossible for Sam to say yes, so he teleported them away. Like I said though, I still think it was God's handiwork.
    • Doesn't Joshua flat out say that God was the one that saved them, in "Dark Side of the Moon"?
  • IIRC, according to Anna, there are over 600 seals of which only 66 need to be broken and any given 66 of them would probably do the trick. A: This is a ridiculously stupid way of sealing evil in a can and B: What's stopping Lilith and company from skipping over this one to the next item on the list?
    • I thought that of the 66 seals to break, only two were essentials and couldn't be skipped: the first one, corrupting an innocent soul until it breaks and starts torturing people; and the last one, killing Lilith, the first demon ever created by Lucifer himself. Apart from that, yeah, that's not a really good way to keep something locked, but since the higher ranked angels wanted the apocalypse to happen...
    • I always considered it to be the breaking of the first seal is necessary to make the seals vulnerable to breaking, and then you have your pick of 598 other seals to break, needing to break at least 64 more of them to weaken the supernatural force enough to make breaking the final seal an option to finish the process. This means you need 536 seals to keep the final seal safe (break one more and then the final seal is vulnerable). Instead of it taking "66" seals to free Lucifer and then supplying a lot of options to make it difficult to defend, it was necessary to have so many just to keep the cage locked in the first place, and then they added 64 more for good measure. Theoretically you could break every single seal and not free Lucifer until you broke the "final" seal of the ritual.

• Demons understand—and frequently use—pop culture references. But anything even mildly pop culture flies right over the angels' heads.
  • Isn't it obviously? Evil has more Fun!
  • Also Demons were formerly human, so makes sense they'd keep some human characteristics. Angels were never human and most have a huge superiority complex about it.
  • Exception: Three out of four archangels are apparently well versed in pop culture.
    • Lucy, I'm home.
  • Plus demons spend a lot more time on Earth than Angels, consider that hunters were completely unaware of Angels' existence until Castiel first appeared. Gabriel on the other hand has spent a lot of time on Earth, and so is well versed in pop culture.
    • This trooper likes to think that most demons are behind pop culture. Also, it is hinted that possessing demons gain knowledge from their hosts. Angels? Not so much.

• Let me get this straight about Bobby; and yes, I know I'll be Captain Obvious for some of this, I'm just trying to see if there's something I've missed. Season five premier, he stabs himself somewhere in the gut area to get rid of the demon that's possessing him. All the episodes so far after that, he's either in a hospital bed or a wheelchair. It's mentioned that he's paralyzed, and his legs are numb. Got that? Good. I've a couple of problems:
  • a) If there was the nerve damage you'd expect from all that, wouldn't he have continence problems? Yes, I know that's a rather unpleasant and Squicky thing to think of, but it would also make for great angst (and when have they ever intentionally left out an opportunity for angst), and he'd only have to mention one line to get across how much it freaking sucks.
  • b) As having lived with somebody (my mother) for my entire life who has had worsening degrees of mobility, I know how difficult it can be to do even the most normal things while confined to a wheelchair. Bobby lives alone. The brothers aren't by enough to help him, and even if they were, he probably wouldn't let them. Unless everything just happens to be at a wheelchair-accessible height normally, and all the doorways are wide enough to get a wheelchair through, and there's nothing important that you have to go by stairs to get to (attic, basement), and the bathroom has railings in all the appropriate places, he is screwed. Although, now I have the "I probably shouldn't find this funny but I do anyways" mental image in my head of him getting someone in to renovate the house, and having to hide or explain all the Hunter stuff. (Yes, I know the MST3K Mantra; just getting this out there.)
  • Point's moot now, thanks to Crowley and the 'teeny little subclause'.

• Why haven't the brothers tried to fry Lucifer with the anti-angel oil? Gabriel backs down after being threatened with it so it's likely it works on archangels. Even if Lucifer is immune surely it would have been a good back up when the colt failed?
  • They handled this in the finale, it will only delay someone of Lucifer or Micheal's power, obviously Castiel must have explained this offscreen.
    • Also, all total, the brothers only run into Lucifer face-to-face a grand total of 3 times (if you don't count alternate future "The End").

• It bugs me that Dean could kill the Whore of Babylon AND Zachariah when it was explicitly stated that he wasn't a 'true servant' of heaven, and only an Angel could kill another Angel.
  • Presumably when Uriel said "only an angel can kill an angel" he meant only an angel has the speed and skill necessary, and only an angel has access to those silver stake things, which are probably more complicated than just... you know, silver stakes.
  • Castiel says that Dean's not a 'true servant of heaven' because he doesn't realise that Dean's decided to go along with heaven's plan; it's at the end of the same episode that Dean takes off, planning to say yes to Michael.
    • Confirmed in the SPN:RPG Guide to the Hunted book. The "silver stake" is a special sword carried by angels which is fatal to them. Also, Uriel's line probably had a bit of pride in it as well. Finally, there's some evidence in the show that Dean was always a servant of heaven, on the side that God was supporting all along.
  • Maybe "only an angel can kill an angel" includes angelic vessels? They're shown to be different from regular humans.

• So the Hammer of the Gods stars a whole bunch of pagan gods from earlier times who are no longer worshipped... and two Hindu gods, who are explicitly no match for Christian Angels. Geez guys, couldn't you have just stuck to the ancient gods rather than having it come off as 'my religion is better than yours'?
  • I'm working on the theory that the only way for any of the mutually contradictory gods to exist is if they are some kind of tulpa. Which would mean that if they exist because people believe in them, those gods who still have believers may be 'created' again. If a few thousand people looking at a website can create the hell house ghost (tibetan symbol enhanced) then a few million people devoutly praying to a god can create that god surely? Fits with the mythology of the show.
  • It's easy to get that impression (especially with the obvious parallels with American Gods) but that surely makes it even more bizarre, since Hinduism is the world's third largest religion (less than Christianity, but certainly enough not to be slumming it with Greek and Norse Gods).
    • Given the parallels to American Gods, they could just be the local versions.
  • Let's remember that the Archangel Gabriel, one of the most powerful of the Host, also got contemptuously butchered by Lucifer in the very same episode. "Hammer of the Gods" has the pagan gods being curbstomped not because they want to say 'hurr durr pagans suck', but because he's fucking Lucifer. The entire season 5 plot is being driven by the fact that only Michael or God could hope to fight Lucifer and live, and even then they'd have to destroy at least half the planet trying.
    • Going off of this, maybe the idea is that in show Hinduism is set up in much the way that in show Christianity is with God (the Brahmin/creative force) at the top, his three main avatars (Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva) as roughly equivalent to the archangels Lucifer, Michael, and Raphael (who seem to be the strongest in-show), and the rest of them (Kali, etc) as regular angels? Kali doesn't do all that much worse against Lucifer than Gabriel does, and since we never meet any of the Big Three, it's entirely possible that picking fight with one of them would have ended up with Lucifer in a divine hospital, or at least been as bad as Michael vs Lucifer. As for why they don't intervene, maybe its because they don't want the apocalypse anymore than Sam and Dean do? Or else they think that the Christian God and his archangels should clean up their own mess? Still bad in the sense of, you're doing your religion wrong, but not nearly as bad as "my God's better than yours".
      • Except Kali is related/equivalent to Death and Endlessness. God will go into her bosom when He dies. (Feel free to correct this, my knowledge of Hinduism is rusty) So basically if we work with Judeo-Christian mythos, or the SPN version of it, she is the basic Hindu version of the Horseman Death in a way.
  • Also, those Pagan gods were all from polytheistic religions, whereas the Judeo-Christian God is from a monotheistic religion. Going with the aforementioned belief that gods are created because people believe them, it could be not because fewer people believe in those gods (which isn't that much the case for the Hindu gods) but rather because, belonging to a pantheon, those gods have to share their power with each other. The total power is split between the gods in one pantheon, probably more or less equally, the same way that in the ancient Greek pantheon, Zeus was the god of the sky (including storms and such), Poseiden was god of the seas, and Hades was god of the underworld, not to mention all the other gods. The Judeo-Christian god, however, is the only god, being in a monotheistic religion, so he doesn't have to share that power and is therefore more powerful. Therefore since he created angels (one has to assume) they're probably more powerful when created by him than angels created by a polytheistic god who had to share their power would be. At least, that's the only explanation I can think of. That episode kinda annoyed me because there were Pagan GODS getting slaughtered so easily, and not even by another god.
    • In the first episode with the Trickster/Gabriel in season 2 Bobby mentions how a god's power comes from belief, so essentially since almost nobody believed in them anymore they weren't able to defend themselves against Lucifer.
      • Which again fails because Kali has at least one billion followers as does Ganesha, as compared to 2 billion Christians. Add to that the power of Zao Jun, the kitchen god and his 1 billion or so Chinese followers, and Lucifer should have been overwhelmed. There's no way to justify a curb stomp battle.
        • Just speculating but perhaps Lucifer derives power not from the number of those who worship him but from everyone who commits evil.
          • Further speculation, there's also the billions and billions of Demons who believe in Lucifer.....though if they count is up to debate.
      • I was most annoyed at how Baron Saturday was portrayed. He's a wine-drinkin', whorin' badass, and yet all he does is for some reason try to punch Lucifer in the face and die. That's not how the Baron operates, at all!
      • In the episode where Bobby said that, they didn't believe in angels or the Christian God. YHVH clearly doesn't operate on the same terms. It's pretty clear that the Supernatural universe is one in which Christianity (or Judaism) is correct, but all the other religions still exist. Thus the pagan gods are nothing more than monsters, while YHVH and the angels are at the top of the cosmic hierarchy.
  • Eric Kripke is Jewish, so I doubt he's trying to say Christianity ftw.
    • I doubt this is the case, really. Until I've read here that he is Jewish I didn't have any idea about that, and I'm Jewish who know more then something about Judaism. I can tell you for certain that he didn't do any justice to Judaism either. Really the show is an unclever mishmash of all kinds and heavily rely on the Rule of Cool. There is no real motive behind that.

• Why don't the boys carry Chuck around with them? Advance knowledge would always help, especially when you're trying to stop the Apocalypse, and he can't get in any trouble - in fact, he's packing more firepower than the boys ever had. Is his archangel higher up than Lucifer?
  • His archangel would likely disapprove of any plans to intentionally expose Chuck to danger. Violently disapprove.
  • Hell, his archangel would probably consider Chuck just being around the boys for any length of time a threat, seeing as they're wanted by Heaven and all.
    • Also, his archangel is Raphael. Yeah, that would work out well for the Winchesters.

• How did Crowley's "Lovers in league against Satan" threat work? Angels have mind-reading powers. If Castiel has them(as evidenced by the famine episode) then Lucifer has them too. All Lucifer would have to do would be to spare five seconds to read Brady's mind and no more eternal shit-list.
  • I suppose it depends on how likely it is for Lucifer to actually go to the effort of finding a non-violent solution to the problem. I suspect he'd last about four seconds, and then just get bored and go straight for the deathy-torture option. Crowley may have figured on that too.
  • Can Lucifer read Demons' minds?
    • Sure, but those are technicalities. The main point here isn't really about Lucifer or Lucifer's abilities - it's about Brady. He didn't buy Crowley's "look at what he is" talk - he seemed to genuinely believe that Lucifer cared about demons. So, he probably should've had faith that Lucifer would care enough about him to not put him on eternal torment list without checking for five seconds first. That's why the threat shouldn't have worked.
      • Lucifer is pretty much pure rage, doubtful he'd ever give him the courtesy, not that he'd be personally oversee the torture even, he'd probably get left to some hard pipe hittin' demons and leave him to them and occasionally pop in to enjoy it.

• Why is it suddenly a good idea for Sam to say yes to Lucifer, when just three episodes ago everyone was railing against Dean's plan to say yes to Michael? Neither of them are what you would call entirely stable (Dean is utterly suicidal at the time, while Sam has the anger issues they keep reminding us about), so why would everyone assume that Sam is strong enough to fight off Lucifer and throw him back into the pit? He couldn't even fight off Meg when she possessed him, or have the other characters forgotten about that? She was just a run-of-the-mill demon, as opposed to a former archangel. There's no way in Hell Sam's suddenly strong enough to mentally overpower the Devil, not when his rage issues have presumably only gotten worse since then.
  • One, desperation. Outside of having Dean say "yes" to Michael, they have no other options. Two, Sam has indeed since then had an epiphany, to the point where even Castiel (and for that matter, Death) thinks that Sam's got a shot. Not to mention that Sam only has to hold it together for just a few seconds—just long enough to jump in the Pit. And three, they have a fallback position—if Sam does succumb, then Dean can envessel Michael and, well, they just lost most of the planet Earth, but that's still better than the all of the planet they'll lose if Sam actually does get taken over.
    • And this troper would like to point out that when Sam was possessed by Meg, she sealed herself with some sort of... burn or engraving on his skin.

• You know what bugs me? 5.22. THAT bugs me. Mainly, Chuck apparently being GOD
  • You know that It Just Bugs Me is about Fridge Logic, right? So could you please explain in detail what Plot Holes do you see, or is it just a random complaint which should be in the forum and that I will delete?
  • Ick, sorry. Should've elaborated. Chuck apparently being God just bugs me because there was NO foreshadowing whatsoever, making it seem like a massive Ass Pull. It literally came out of nowhere and made him seem like a massive asshole considering he let everyone but Dean die before he actually DID something about it. Also, it was stated that the amulet would find God- and then in 5.16 Joshua told them that he couldn't be found with the amulet if he didn't want to be, fair enough. But when Chuck first found out he was supposedly a 'prophet of the lord' he was all set on the idea of himself being a God, but Castiel immediately told him he wasn't. Surely if he was God then Castiel would've had some sort of idea, being an Angel and all? They set Chuck up as such a good character- he drank, he wrote terrible books then found out that it was due to him being a Prophet. But if you look at him with the idea of him being God all along then he's just- a total asshole, he did NOTHING despite knowing what was going to happen, he could've stopped the whole thing but instead he just acted like it was all a joke until he randomly disappeared at the end.
  • OK then. Well, if he's really God, I guess he could make the amulet not glow and everything. And it was mainly a continuation of Chuck being the Author Avatar of the show. So yeah, I kinda agree with you here, but even if I didn't really like that twist because it made him an asshole in my eyes, I didn't find it a Plot Hole or anything.
  • I guess that's true, hyping God up to not caring about them, or the apocalypse in 5.16 was weird considering they- on the show- had made it very clear that Chuck cared about the Winchesters. I suppose it's not a Plot Hole, but most definitely a poorly foreshadowed Ass Pull on the writers part.
  • The way I see it, Chuck actually lived happily ever after with Becky. God assumed Chuck's form, and residence, for that episode. It certainly explains a lot more, including the change in personality of moments when he's alone during that long gap between appearances. Though I'm still kind of weirded out by that one call he was expecting. Though maybe that was an act to not have Dean realize he was expecting him.
  • But if he was god he'd be omniscient and would therefore always have known that Sam and Dean would have succeeded without divine intervention. Why would he intervene more, if the result was going to be favourable to him anyway? And at the very least he appears to have brought Sam back.
  • I understood it to be that God cared, but was unwilling to take away/interfere with anyone's free will. The angels have already told you that God loves humans more than Angels, and it's been subtly hinted that our free will could be why (This idea is also very emphatically stated in Good Omens, which Supernatural does Shout-Out to, and Castiel’s mentioned that an Angel is nothing without obedience.) Anyway, Chuck gave the brothers hints and information so that they could stop the Apocalypse if they really wanted to, but made sure they’d still have to work for it. (That’s why He kept bringing Castiel back to life.) This is also why He left the “back off” message with Joshua. Because God was going to help, but He wasn’t going to do everything for them (certainly not going to spoon-feed them), and He knew that the brothers needed a little re-directing to make them abandon the let’s-get-God-to-solve-our-problems and move on to how-can-we-solve-this-ourselves mode of thought. (Although, in typical human fashion, the brothers did flail about in despair for two episodes before finally pulling themselves together and moving on to the second frame of mind.)
    • Personally, I thought it was very brilliant, as something that had been just bugging me was how Castiel kept popping back to life with the only explanation being “God likes him.” Because at that point we only knew God to be apathetic, which only made me scream “WHY?! Why would God bring Castiel back?” It really bothered me, but now knowing that God was Chuck, and remembering that Castiel was very fan-boyish the first time he meet Chuck and then his first death was right in front of Chuck gives a much more personal reason for God to keep resurrecting him. Also, following with the above idea that God highly values free will, the fact that Castiel abandoned Heaven to join Team Free Will is another good reason for God to care about him.
    • Finally, just wanted to add that it was stated in an episode that if God didn't want to be found, then he wouldn't be found, mystical god-finding amulet or not. This seemed to mean that Chuck recognized the amulet when he first met Dean (even before Cas clues Dean into what the amulet does) and 'turned it off' so that it wouldn't alert anyone to His presence. Castiel doesn't recognize God because only four angels have ever even seen God, and Cas is not one of them. And, I mean, He's God. If He can conceal his identiy from a brainless amulet, then don't you think He could also conceal Himself from one of His own angels whom He created and knows inside and out?
    • Unconvinced that Chuck is... anything more than a prophet. If anything, the Almighty of SPN is as big of fan of following the rules as Aslan is of Chronicles of Narnia, so He wouldn't be just "switching off" amulets.
    • This Troper doesn't recall, but...is Chuck ever in the same room as the amulet once we know what it does? In the beginning he is, but Dean would just ignore his necklace heating up because he wouldn't have realized the significance. It's only once we know that it matters, and did Castiel ever go near Chuck between when he took it and when Dean threw it away? Of course, I could be an idiot here for not remembering, but you see my point?
    • I had the theory of possession, if Angels and Demons do it, why shouldn't God be able to? It's also been proven that some people don't even know their being possessed half the time, so it's entirely possible that Chuck was possessed by God, and when he was done writing the Winchester Gospel, God made him ascend to heaven. It's entirely possible.

• Back on the subject of 5.22, there's the big Michael/Lucifer showdown being done with an improper vessel (Adam) and no special effects, just Michael and Lucifer making angry, constipated faces at each other. Seriously, considering that fight was supposed to scorch the world it would have been nice to at least see a punch or fireball thrown.
  • The fact that Michael basically told Dean to get out of the way in that scene definitely bothered me. When we last saw Michael he was so sure about "the plan" and that no matter what this would all end in him riding Dean and beating Lucifer riding Sam. And then the final battle is about to start, Michael is using the wrong vessel... but wait, Dean drives up in the Impala. I was totally waiting for him to smile and say something like, "You came, just like I always knew you would", thinking that Dean was there to say yes. But instead we get him being pissy and telling Dean to go away. Really?
    • That actually made a lot of sense to me. If we've learned anything about angels, it's that they can be quite petty. In Michael's opinion, Dean went out of his way to be as obstinate and unhelpful as he possibly could. And then he had the nerve to show up right as the battle is about to start in a last ditch effort to stop it? I think it was in Michael's character to be upset.
  • Castiel giving up and proposing that they "imbibe copious amounts of alcohol", should be a fun little nod to 5.04, but considering that he beat Dean bloody for giving up and agreeing to be Michael's vessel, it seems way out of character for him to give up like that. Sure, his angel knowledge lead him to believe that the way the battle was going to go was a foregone conclusion, but the same knowledge would also lead him to believe that Dean agreeing to be Dean's vessel was a good thing. Sure, he ended up deciding to help, but the whole "Hey assbutt!" and "...no?" thing was just lame.
    • Castiel's suggestion of "imbibe copious amounts of alcohol" was a nod to 5.17 when Castiel drank an entire liquor store because learning that God wasn't going to help them had left him without any hope. Here Castiel's once again in a situation he views as entirely hopeless, so once more the only thing he can think to do is drink (which is, incidently, a behavior he learned from the Winchesters). The beating Dean bloody moment happened because Castiel thought Dean was throwing away the tiny little splinter of hope they did still have at that time (That scene was also intended to show just how far Castiel's fallen.) By the finale, though, Castiel knows Michael's given up on Dean and has settled for Adam. The fight is going down as they speak, and there is no chance left of stopping it. Also, remember that Castiel was also struggling at this point with the loss of his angelic powers, and was having a hard time adjusting to functioning in an entirely human way (Bobby even snaps at him for this when Castiel admits he doesn't know how to fight without his mojo). So while Dean and Bobby who've always been human and have always problem-solved in a human manner, Castiel is finding the process very alien and is therefore understandably more overwhelmed by the situation than Dean and Bobby.
  • Chuck's narration about the boys taking the Impala to an Ozzy concert, a baseball game, and occasionally just stopping to look at the stars. Thing is, the boys WOULD BE INHUMAN FUCKING MONSTERS if they did that. In season 4 they were supposed to be keeping the 66 seals from being broken and Lucifer being released, and had angry angels on their asses stressing the importance of their task. It would be stupid and irresponsible for them to take a break. In season five the Devil was up and walking around, causing natural disasters and killing masses of people. While they clearly felt pretty helpless, going to a rock concert or something instead of looking up ways to stop the devil would be plain heartless. This is supported by Dean admitting he only gets a few hours of sleep in Sam, Interrupted and Sam protesting to them even taking a rest stop at a hotel in Hammer of the Gods, even though the alternative seemed to be driving through a tornado. While they were highly likely to do the things listed in Season 3, when Dean only had a year left to live and he would logically want to do something fun with his brother, and would excuse Chuck's egregious bit of narration the clip of Sam and Dean "just looking at the stars" was clearly from season five.
    • Two other entire seasons you're forgetting, buddy.
    • Whoa, you know Sam and Dean are human, right? They have to eat, sleep, and pull over for potty breaks just like everyone else. There's nothing inhuman about having to take a break from life when stress is overwhelming you. And like the poster before me pointed out you seem to have forgotten that there was a season 1 and 2. But even in season 4 and 5, if laying on top of the car and stargazing happens to be their coping mechanism, then what's so unreasonable about stopping and resting if you're driving at night and get too tired to keep going? Or if, as you pointed out, one or both of them started developing insomnia. Also, some of the flashbacks were shown to also have been opportunities for them to hustle or otherwise make money while enjoying themselves. Also, while the scene of the boys watching the stars was clearly from season 5, it was implied that this was something they'd been doing many times over the years. Frankly, given how chaotic and violent their hunts typically are, to show that they often wind down by sitting in silence and simply being still made perfect sense in my opinion.
    • Yeah, you seem to be forgetting that the narration about the Impala was covering Dean's & Sam's ENTIRE LIVES. Not just 2 years of it.

• Ok, waaaaay overdue one here, cropped up while re-watching season 2 with my family: No Exit, they're up against the ghost of H.H. Holmes, yes? And they've already established that cold iron destabilizes or otherwise harms ghosts. So how the hell does his torture room in the sewers work? All the grates and doors there are cast iron. It'd be like a shapeshifter wearing a silver necklace, or a demon deliberately taking a shower in holy water...
  • Isn't it "Cold Iron"/(mostly)"Pure Iron" that repels ghosts? I remember Sam specifying that at at least one point. If those boxes were Cast Iron, as you said, then enough of it's make up is carbon rendering it impure by lore standards. And thus no more effective than Steel or Bronze. As far as I can tell anyway.

• The breaking of the 66 seals let Lucifer out of his cage. The seals are presumably still broken, so what's stopping Lucifer from climbing right back out of the Pit?
  • I assumed that, by locking Lucifer again, the seals were automatically restored, forcing Lucifer to start all over again.
  • Seeing as how the final seal to free Lucifer was to kill the first demon he ever made, then if the seals have re-sealed themselves, does that mean Lilith will come back to life? Or that in order to free Lucifer a second time one must kill the second demon he ever made?
  • Well, I think it's a pretty safe assumption that Lucifer's cage doesn't open from the inside. Lilith performed a ritual to open it (she killed all those nuns, had an altar set up, etc.), the last step of which was her death. Since she can't die again, it's possible that Lucy and Michael are sealed in there permanently.
  • Why would the seals reset? My theory is that the first 65 seals were making the key and killing Lilith was using it, to do that again they must break another 65 seals of the remaining 534 and then destroy the used rings (as successfully using the rings turns them into a new lock, like Lilith).

• About the second time travel episode. Shouldn't Anna, Castiel, Sam and Dean realized trying to back in time to kill their parents and stop the apocalypse was going to fail BECAUSE IT HAD ALREADY BEEN ESTABLISHED THAT TIME COULD NOT BE CHANGED. And like Anna wouldn't have already tried to kill a dictator or something in her tenure as an angel.
  • Anna's Face Heel Turn bothered me in the first place. Some of it might be explained away by her personality changing as a result of getting her grace back, but it was jarring for her to go from having a tender love scene with Dean one season to randomly deciding to kill Sam the next. It just wasn't set up properly and her motivations were never really explained.
    • Keep in mind that Anna was dragged back to Heaven to be punished at the end of season 4, and we haven't seen her since. In The Rapture, Castiel was put through the same punishment and turned into a cold, unsympathetic soldier who supported keeping Dean prisoner (at first, anyway). Anna was there a hell of a lot longer - it makes sense that she would be affected by it enough to think that killing Sam was a good solution to the apocalypse.
  • Fridge Brilliance: The only reason we think that time cannot be changed is because Cas said so - way back at the beginning of Season 4, when he was still a good little angel following orders. Given how obsessed all of the other angels seem to be with impressing You Can't Fight Fate onto the boys, it's hardly a stretch that this was just another lie to keep Dean in line and make it seem as though his 'fate' was inevitable.

• In Sympathy for the Devil, how is it that Bobby, the most badass hunter of the group, the one who could tell if Dean was possessed or not, and is the master of possessions (As stated when we first meet him and he helps them get rid of Meg). How did he manage to get himself possessed? Its easy to not be possessed (A simple tattoo), and he never bothered to get that, or to wear an amulet to protect himself? Plot hole.
  • I don't remember if Bobby explained how it happened or if he didn't have an amulet, but I can imagine six demons taking him while he's not at home and removing his amulet/tattoo by force.

• How is it that Meg gets to return from hell three times in a row, but they vanquish more powerful demons who don't return.
  • They never stabbed her, and she's been on their case. I don't think the others are actively seeking them anymore.

• Wincest. Dear god, I can't think of a more stupid shipping community than these shippers. It's not even the incest itself, or even the fact that these people manage to somehow delude themselves into believe that the actors are gay and just hiding it. No, it's not that. It's the fact they go against all characterisation in an attempt to hamfistedly force the characters together. And that's terrible. Maybe this should go into the Fan Dumb IJBM page?

• The thing that bugs me most about this show is how they handle crime scenes and don't even bother trying to to hide evidence of what they are doing. Seriously, guys, BUY A PAIR OF PLASTIC GLOVES AND USE THEM. IF they just did that, the cops would have a lot less to harass them about! Sam is supposed to be a bright, sensible boy with upper middle class sensibilities and possibly a ivory league (or at least, high quality) education , so tv/stereotypes dictate he should be clever enough to know how to handle a crime scene. And Dean must have watched Dexter (or any number of police procedurals) at one point!! There's really no excuse!
  • Also, do the Winchesters always have to be so trigger/dagger/axe/baseball-bat happy? It seems sometimes that there would be easier and equally effective ways to deal with repentant/newly turned vampires and werewolves. For the first group, they could tie them up and direct them to the reformed vampires lead by Amber Benson's character , which would allow them to stay alive without murdering people. For the werewolves, couldn't you just build some really good cages and shackles in the basement?
    • And, anyhow , Sam should not have shot that werewolf girl in series two. Tying up and Killing random innocent people in their apartments (particularly attractive middle class young white women) is the kind of thing that would get the cops on you in a big way. If she was too scared to pull the trigger herself (and they couldn't have used the locked cellar), they could have tried to frame the scene correctly and have gotten her to write a suicide note. Her family might have appreciated knowing that it wasn't their fault that she died!!!
    • Sam shouldn't have had to kill her at all. It always struck me as sort of idiotic that they immediately assumed that since she was a werewolf, and there was no cure, she had to die. Supernatural's rules for werewolves are that they "turn" on the night of a full moon, when they go to sleep or otherwise become unconsious. If I were in this situation, my first reaction upon learning this rule would be to stay up all night and sleep during the day. If you aren't asleep while the moon's out, you don't change. Simple as that.
      • Wasn't that their plan...? And then it turned out that the Full Moon triggers the change in a Werewolf to take place when they next fall asleep. So when she falls asleep during the following day, and susequently turns, they then decide there is no preventing the curse?
    • I always thought of their being trigger-happy, and sloppy with crime scenes, and not always too bright in general as deliberate flaws of their characters. Am I just being Fan Dumb and handwaving the writers' incompetence?
      • While I'm not one to give the writers too much credit, I think that it's deliberate. Remember all the wank in Season One about "how can they get away with this crap all the time?"/"this is never going to come up again" and it was revealed in Season Two that the police actually have a long list of charges than can be brought against Dean especially?
      • One final thing: Dean's deal with the crossroads devil is completely in keeping with his character's psychology (in particular, that abusive way he was raised to be Sam's caretaker and low self esteem) but that doesn't make it any less painful to watch. The same can be said for John's deal with the devil. Also, although this troper thinks the actor who plays John is hot in a daddy kind of way and thinks the flashback scenes are quite effective, its annoying to watch the three Winchesters grouped together. For one thing, the plot suffers. More importantly, it just hurts to watch. Obviously, they all love each other, but John's treatment of his sons (particularly Dean, who never calls him out) is manipulative and abusive. The three of them clearly have a lot of issues, and when they're all together, it's depressing and the plot suffers, because they spend too long wangsting and having stupid power struggles. It's more enjoyable when Bobby is the mentor, because he's got fewer screws loose, acknowledges them more as human beings, and they don't spend their whole time rehashing all their psychological issues rather than killing monsters and pretending to be husband and wife.
    • Don't they grapple with personal problems many times in considering monsters to be human at all? That group of vampires were exceptions. If the Winchester boys directed every vampire they came across to that group, not only would it take a very long time and potentially compromise the nest with the influx of required blood + rowdy new members whom are uncomfortable with the lifestyle shift? They aren't running a Vampire Rehabilitation Clinic, they're a small nest of vampires trying to fly under the radar by not killing humans. I don't know how feasible it is to construct restraints for every were-wolf they come across either, and just trust them to be able to take care of themselves. If anybody dies due to an accident later, it's on them for not killing the werewolf whilst they could. The Winchesters aren't out to help monsters deal with their problems, but eliminate them; sometimes they meet groups that make them rethink their outlook on life, but those creatures often have already established themselves as non-human-killing; so it's not blind faith.
  • It's confirmed that Dean's seen Dexter, since he compares Soulless!Sam to Dexter.
    • Also, that he hates procedural cop shows, and so probably doesn't spend a whole lot of time watching them.

• In "Channel Surfing", the Japanese game show asked if Sam wasn't alive would his parents be? The answer was yes, but that flies in the face of the established canon of their mother dying because of the Yellow Eyed Demon's deal she made in the past!
  • Not exactly. The reason she died was actually stated as being that she interrupted Azazel feeding Sam the blood when he specifically told her not to interrupt him. Further proof was that some of the special children from S2 said their mothers didn't die.

• What REALLY Just Bugs Me is how the Winchester boys kill willy-nilly and NEVER get called out on it. It's hard to watch our "protagonists" when Sam is shooting a Crossroad Demon (and more importantly, her host) for being fresh, and when Dean just cuts a vampire's (who didn't even know what she was doing) head off when they already know that it's possible for vamps to be "vegetarians." They never seem to feel remorse or even acknowledge that their total douchebags masquerading as heroes. Pfft.
  • That vampire was played by Mercedes McNab. The last time she played a vampire she had Chronic Backstabbing Disorder and was so stupid she managed to accidentally fuck everything up. He was just taking the necessary precautions.
  • Yeah, that one bugs me as well. It's stated in the series that when demons possess people the host is still there. Their just in a sort of coma or paralysis. So when they go around stabbing people left and right with a demon killing knife it kinda makes you wonder about all the innocent people they've killed simply because they had the bad luck to get possessed. They again if they didn't stab they the demon would kill them both... still, a bit bothersome.
  • They do get called on it. By Henriksen, with the Rising of the Witnesses, etc.
  • Somewhere in season 3 it's stated that most demons like to run their hosts really hard so it's safe to assume the person inside is probably dead anyway. Personally, I think it's a weak justification but I guess it's better than nothing.
  • They get faced with the dilemma every now and then, making them consider things they hadn't before. They get called out on indiscriminate killing from time to time. But when they reach that stage that they can kill without thinking too much about it, that's probably character development. The Supernatural Universe is a horribly tough one to live in as a hunter, if they tried to incapacitate and exorcise every demon they came across, just to save the host, they'd be torn apart. They aren't heroes in that they have impeccable morals, they're anti-heroes in that they're flawed and have years of predjudical training drilled into their heads and, after accepting some people have to die and it isn't their fault, they're the better for it in terms of just living with themselves. Sometimes they step over the boundaries, like Sam killing the crossroads demon, though usually those are to show they're going through something intense at the time.
  • I always figured that all Hunters just have major What Measure Is a Non-Human? issues. If it's not human, it's evil by default, until it proves itself otherwise. Yeah, kinda dickish, but in the context of the show, not completely unreasonable.

• Two things in "Jus In Bello": When they exorcised the demons who were trapped within the circle of salt, the black cloud exploded. Shouldn't that mean the demons were actually killed, since they couldn't go anywhere? Also, Ruby was too useful to Lilith's true plan to risk her life on a lesser one (though Lilith herself didn't know all of Lucifer and Azazel's plan, and was looking out for her own self-interests after all). So why did Ruby offer to kill herself?
  • Ladies and gentlemen, Xanatos Roulette at its finest. Ruby was using the offer as a way of gaining the boys' trust. She also knew they would never go through with the Virgin Sacrifice. If she had been wrong on this point, she'd have been royally screwed.

• Something I have never seen mentioned here for fuckknowswhy is, if SPN operates according to some highly screwy Judeo-Christian theology, WHERE THE FUCK IS JESUS?! Also,
  • The only deity that could bring back anything to life is God. Therefore, God brought the Bros. + Cas back to life several times. Are they blind or something and just not notice?
    • Castiel brought Dean back to life. God's just the only one who can bring back people who are Deader Than Dead.
      • Then God brought Cas back to life. So how does Cas not realize it earlier on? He's been brought back tons of times!
        • He's been brought back twice. Both times, he DOES credit God.
  • Kali and Ganesha. What. Where is Shiva? And Parvati? Ganesha isn't even Kali's kid! And Ganesha has an elephant-head, he isn't an actual elephant!
  • God brought back everyone else. Repeatedly. Where the hell is Sir/JDM/John Winchester?
  • Jesus is God. They have God. The end.
    • According to Christianity, Jesus ≠ God. Jesus is the "son of God" or a mix of God and human, but not actually God. Then again, Kripke has murdered every other religion out there, so I shouldn't be too surprised.
      • • I can understand the above posters confusion, but God and Jesus are one and the same being. Though it is not the above troper's fault, as it is in fact a very confusing aspect of Christianity. In fact, this was responsible for arguments and disagreements within Christianity for a LONG time (took the Church 300 years to come out with a basic consensus at the Council of Nicaea). God and Jesus are both one and the same and yet distinctly separate (at least according to Catholicism). The easiest way to grasp it is that God is a sun. You know the sun is there by the light it produces (Jesus) and the heat that you feel (The Holy Spirit), which let you have some perception of what the sun itself is. These characteristics are unique from the sun itself (they are traits, not the actual physical object), but at the same moment, are part of the sun (no sun, no light or heat) and everything about them are defined by that sun. They also can't be truly separated (the sun is not a sun without the heat or the light. So I always assumed that for the purposes of Supernatural, they simply were trying to avoid the confusion this mess would bring(I studied theology for four years and a devout Catholic for many more, and even I have trouble with this). Though I also think it might have to be due to controversy over Jesus being there as the Son of God (my experience has been that a vague Abrahamic God is much easier to swallow than Jesus in most media, or general conversation for that matter).
      • Some Protestants would disagree with you, but regardless, I don't see any reason why Jesus would need to show up, anyways.
        • The portrayal of a Jesus character on the show would probably cause a severe media backlash and create a potential ratings disaster. No Jesus = no controversy.
          • ...what's sad is how completely plausible that is.
            • That's probably also why they've yet to actually show God and keep his motives really vague.
              • It's surprising that they even showed Lucifer.
        • As for why they would show Christ(I.E., God the Son, Jesus, etc), the show's version of the Apocalypse is taken largely from Revelation(The Horsemen, the Whore of Babylon), broadstrokes though it may be. And Christ does show up in Revelation; He's riding a white horse with a bunch of crowns on His head and a sword in His mouth(one assumes that was meant to be taken figuratively, His word being His weapon or some such) leading the armies of heaven. Its possible that had the end times continued as planned, He would have eventually shown up to wipe the floor with Lucifer.
• Adam/Michael gets pulled into Hell by Sam/Lucifer. Sam gets out. Where is Adam? Why hasn't he been mentioned at all? For a show about family, somebody's missing the point.

• • He's still in there. And Sam and Dean clearly don't care much about him, they just feel like they should care about him. When Dean makes a deal with Death to bring Sam's soul back, he asks Death to resurrect Adam too, but Death says he can only choose one. He immediately picks Sam.
    • Which is seriously the most hypocritical thing Dean has done since he touts family out a lot. Especially since Adam essentially took his place as Michael's vessel, hence the bullet for him. That makes this kid's sacrifice for the Winchesters a pretty big one
  • This is one of the main things keeping me from enjoying Season 6. Adam is only being used as cheap angst opportunities and quick fixes. And so far no one has called them out on this yet, either.
    • Adam didn't take a bullet for them, he went around them and got himself posessed by Michael. Their plan was to trap Lucifer in the cage and have noone need to be possessed by Michael. Dean's attitude is part of his character development in Season 6, I think. As of the more recent episodes, he redefines his definition of "family". He considers Bobby family, but not Samuel, because "Blood doesn't make you family." That you have to earn the right. They'd never met Adam until shortly before he was getting targetted by Michael, they met and sympathised with a Goul pretending to be him. When they met the true Adam he made it pretty clear he wanted nothing to do with them, and didn't consider them family whatsoever, so they simply made the emotion mutual. They feel some remorse that he got stuck in the cage, that it could have been avoided, but ultimately it was his fault and they tried to prevent it. They won't let it cripple them emotionally, what's done is done and Dean made motions to save him, but in the end cares for him so little compared to Sam.

• Not to sound oversensitive, but as a Hindu, this troper is kinda bugged by the way the Hindu deities who were portrayed in "Hammer of the Gods" were so easily mowed down and killed (along with deities from other religions). I mean, seriously, these are gods, by definition they're supposed to be immortal (at least according to Hindu religious canon).
  • Lucifer kind of implies that the Gods of other religions aren't really Gods, which could be seen as offensive, but it does answer anyone who thought, "Where are the other Gods in all this?"
  • Eric Kripe suffers a terminal case of Americanitis (partly, though by no means entirely caused by the budget limitations of American television). Anything that's not Judeo-Christian is equally strange and wrong. Hinduism = Mongolian Shamansim = Voodoo = unicorns/fairies/what have you. Sad but true.
    • Original poster here: Yeah it is kind of true.
  • I don't think that the writers of this show realize how offensive the "Hammer of the Gods" was. I'm an atheist, so my beliefs are non-existent, but to even IMPLY that Judeo-Christianity is somehow "superior" to the beliefs that largely PRECEDED it is appalling. Why would the Hindu deity, who has almost as many believers as J-C, be LESS powerful than an essentially minor character in the other religion? Since I have no religious beliefs,the whole debate is like arguing why Captain American could beat Batman (he could you know) but I'm surprised that this show was allowed to go forward given that insulting religion is usually a "conversation killer." Seriously, what possessed the producers of this show to allow it to descend into religious allegory, anyway? Given that there are so many ways that demons and ghosts could have been explained (extra-dimensionals,energy beings,etc) it seems like a cop-out to decide to allow religion to be reason all of the events on the show are occurring. Before the religious overtones took center-stage, this was a lightweight but enjoyable program. Now it's like watching The 700 Club w/ "special effects.
  • You. I like you. Why is Kali with Ganesha? Where the hell is Shiva in all of this? Or Parvati? And Ganesha had an elephant-head, he wasn't a goddamn elephant. Also, Kripke is a dick when it comes to any religion's canon. If he stuck to canon, there'd be Jesus somewhere...or so you'd think, but Christianity has about 5000 varieties.
    • Not to mention that Kripke should probably have done more than a 5 second Google search to research Hinduism (or other religions). In "Hammer of the Gods", they depicted the Hindu gods joining with the others in eating human sacrifices...but this Hindu troper would like to reassure everyone that in Hinduism, we do NOT offer human sacrifices (in fact a lot of Hindus refuse to even kill animals for food). The fact that Kripke depicted Hindu gods partaking in this was offensive.
    • Not sure if that makes it better, but in this case it's not Kripke/that episode's writer thinking that Hindu gods want human sacrifices, but rather him following the show's continuity: it was already said that pagan gods needed human sacrifices (the couple in the Christmas episode, Paris Hilton). Neither Mercury nor Odin were offered sacrifices as well in real life, as far as I remember.
    • Actually, Odin received human sacrifices in two ways: People would honor him in battle (those that died on either side being considered sacrifices to him) and more directly by hanging prisoners and criminals to honor his hanging.
  • A possibility: Maybe the foreign gods are weakened by being so far from their power base? A quick wikipedia suggests that Christianity is by far the largest religion in the US, whereas other religions, while large, are nowhere near as prominent. If the episode were set in India, then perhaps the Hindu gods would be much more powerful? I know that this is just an Ass Pull to try and justify it a bit, but does it make sense?
  • This is very simple: Kali, Baldur and the like weren't really gods. That may seem offensive, but when Season 4 made a monotheistic religion true in Supernatural's canon, they were saying all other religions were false by default. "Hammer of the Gods" just made it explicit. The story takes as a central conceit that there's one creator god, and that means all other gods aren't real, and that means they're just myths. And in this show, All Myths Are True and they all eat people. People may have worshiped Kali and the like, but they were still just monsters, and that's why Lucifer could rip through them as easily as he would a gang of vampires: because in the show, they're the same thing.
    • And you think that makes it less offensive? Talk about missing the point. The OP wasn't complaining that it wasn't Justified in show. He/she was complaining because it was a hideously offensive, moronic, and rather racist portrayal. The Christian god is the real thing, all the others are evil, lying, immortal cannibals. I mean, jeez I'd half to work overtime to create a message half that offensive.
    • What I don’t understand bout the gods in the Christmas Episode… Why would any god discharge a gift from a human like that (they throwaway and stomp on the Yule fruitcake)? I know human sacrifices are awesome to gods, but any gift given freely from a mortal would be met with rejoice, it’s better than doing it yourself… isn’t it?
      • Well, if you make one religion true, you make all others false by default. And Supernatural never seemed to work by God Needs Prayers Badly rule, there were several mythological creatures and demons from christian lore. So they went along the Christian Demons and made Christianity True religion. It might offense someone that it was other religion that was made "true", but as long as it;s not God Needs Prayers Badly, it has to be so. And as the show is made in America for western society, it is completely normal that the Christianity is made "true". I don's see anything offensive there, just like I wouldn't by an Indian horror-fantasy series with Hinduism as true religion.
        • How is that not offensive? It would be one thing if they only showed Christianity, but bringing in others solely for the sake of bashing them is crass. And by the way, "it's for a small minded audience" is a truly lousy defence.
          • It should not be seen as offensive, because In-Universe there is THE God, which happens to be the Judo-Christian, and there are monsters. If it was a Multi-God-universe, it would be offensive to degrade some gods while making others true to the source. But it is not. in Supernatural universe, there are either THE Judo-Christian God and his followers, or supernatural creatures, which, In-Universe again, are malevolent. And as you could neither make the Hinduism true religion (as it was chosen to be Judo/Christian), nor make Kali an Angel (which wolud be Bullshit), the only remaining option was to make her another supernatural creature. And there it is. I bet Celts wouldn't like their God to be a scarecrow either, but nobody seems to complain.
  • Good lord this. The inconsistencies and poor portrayal of them makes that episode painful to watch. Especially Kali's portrayal.
  • I'm an atheist, so I'm not necessarily biased towards Hinduism or against Christianity, but I still think the portrayal of the other gods in this is offensive. There's a difference between having one religion be true and demeaning all of the other religions. Christianity's the true religion in the Supernatural universe, and that's fine, but it seems like they only bring in other gods in order to show how weak they are in the most offensive way possible. Lucifer downright states that the Pagan gods are worthless and worse than demons. Maybe if they showed the other gods in the same light as angels (not as great as God but still being divine and respectable in power and whatnot)it would be better and make a lot more sense. The argument made somewhere above this that states that polytheistic gods have to share their power with each other as opposed to a monotheistic god is shaky but still makes some sense. But they're just shown as pathetic usually—having to feed off of humans, getting curb-stomped, etc.
    • Plus, have you ever read any comments on what people have to say about that? Any scene involving Lucifer beating all the other gods in the Hammer of the Gods episode will invariably be met with "Christianity wins!" comments, with people totally ignoring that Lucifer (the Christian embodiment of evil) just killed good or neutral Hindu gods. As if saying that even the worst of Christianity is still better than the other religions . . .
  • I wanted to throw a hissy fit when I saw that episode. The interpretation of Hinduism as pantheistic is also a little ignorant (it really depends on who you ask, I suppose). You could argue that Ganesha is Kali's son because Kali is Parvati is Durga is Saraswati is Shakti etc. But yes, to be raised in a faith and then see your deities portrayed in a tv show as cannibalistic and to have the Goddess's bare body displayed for no other reason than "it's sexy" is so incredibly offensive. I understand taking creative liberties and Kali is one of the most badass incarnations of Shakti, so I can see why they wanted her. That doesn't make it any better though.
    • With the Season 6 introduction of a universe where there is no magic or gods (crudely put: atheism is 'correct')then it's entirely possible that there is another universe where the Hindu Gods are the 'correct' deities that are totally NOT cannibals. The version we see is just set in the universe where Judeo-Christian myhtology rules, but other cultures deities still have a small influence.
    • In the 'Hammer of the Gods' episode, they referred to Gabriel as 'Loki', so if they had really wanted a consistent mythology they could have claimed all the gods were in fact Angels in 'witness protection'. The show in general doesn't seem to be quite sure of what is happening with 'gods/goddesses', with differing portrayals and dispatches (the christmas gods, Veritas and Paris Hilton).
  • Okay, Okay, okay. Having just recently gone through an Archive Binge on seasons 5 and 6, I have a few things for anyone who still feels a bit off about "Hammer of the Gods" (and yes, I do too, and I'm a bloody agnostic). First off, just to precede what I'm about to say, I had just assumed that these were simply the human avatars of the various gods, which would explain how easy it was for Lucifer to play out his little hissy-fit killing-spree, however I understand that that's not an opinion held by many. Now for the actual content: 1) Kali said that the other gods were on earth first, before the judeo-christian god. This means that that god is either A) the creator of the entire universe and simply only got interested in humanity after the other gods had already staked their claim, which makes him a Jerkass, or B) he's an alien of Cthulhu-dimensions who moved in on earth's turf, which makes him... a Jerkass. Interpret that as you will. 2) Eve says in one of the recent episodes that she was around before Castiel, and considering in the episode after that we find out that Castiel was around since the Cretaceous period, either Eve was around before God made the angels, or God and the angels came after Eve, which again implies the same thing. It also indicates that Kali and the others were around since before this time (see point 1), which says that the show's premise of Gods Need Prayer Badly to survive as simple monsters doesn't apply to them. Interpret as you will. Either way, the judeo-christian god comes out looking like either a bored creator god with attention-deficit disorder, or a Jerkass with a thing for shadenfreude. I'm just waiting for the show to make a reference to the demiurge or Aeon Telos so we can get some real existential culture in for debate haha!... please don't hurt me.
    • My two cents; while I can see and sympathize with how portraying one's objects of worship in a manner such as Ms. Fanservice and I Am a Humanitarian are offensive(and I'm not just talking about the Hindus in the audience, I know a few neo-pagans who weren't happy with the portrayals of Odin or Hermes), I would argue that making one religion(actually at least three religions as they take broadstrokes from all the abrahamic faithes, not just christianity) true and another false within the context of a fictional show is not in and of itself offensive. I think for the most part we can agree that people actually believing one is true and the other is false(as any devout follower does) isn't in and of itself offensive, and I'm not seeing a difference here. Turning Odin into a buttmonkey and Kali into fanservice are offensive characterizations, but having them get mowed down by Lucifer isn't.

• Anyone else bugged by the way the characters often respond to a desire by anyone to live a normal life by snorting "What, you wanna live some apple pie life or something?!!" with a tone of derision? First of all, what exactly is wrong with living a normal life? Many of the characters generally act like people who do should be treated with contempt or something. Secondly, why do they keep using the phrase "apple pie life"? I know what it's supposed to connote, but still, the way they just keep repeating that exact phrase just sounds weird.
  • The point is probably supposed to be that hunters are kind of screwed up like that. It's not like Sam and Dean's behaviors have been portrayed as particularly healthy.
  • What do you mean by normal life? If a normal life is what most people do, looking out for themselves, working a job they don't care for, watching the clock, and living for the weekends, then the way they idealise it is a bit discordant. Maybe the point is that these guys bitch and moan (mostly Sam, but Dean too as of late) constantly, but for all the hardships, they're doing something worthwhile. They're helping people, saving lives, making a difference, which is something a lot (though by no means all) of us slaving away in an office to make someone else rich really envy.
    • Original troper who posted this entry here: By "normal life" I mean, just generally anyone living their life. Just because you say you hate your job doesn't mean that everyone else does. And even if someone does, that doesn't necessarily mean that person would/should feel boatloads of Wangst. As for "what most people do, looking out for themselves", sure people look out for themselves, but most people also have a family, a circle of close friends, extended family etc (although admittedly, the size of the extended family varies according to culture) that they also enjoy spending time with and looking out for. My original point was, it's kind of insulting for the writers to have Early Seasons!Dean and other hunters to be so condescending towards those of us who actually enjoy normal life. Believe it or not, you really don't need to constantly go on demon-hunting etc adventures to have a good time.
      • You're aware that the writers aren't actually demon-hunters, right? They're not insulting or condescending to anyone. The phrase "apple-pie life" is used exactly twice. The first time, it's said mockingly by Dean, who was still pretty immature at that point, and couldn't imagine why anyone would give up being a kick-ass monster hunter to go be Joe Normal. It's not intended to be a You Suck moment, it's just Dean being Dean. Throughout the series, the more Dean gets exposed to the idea of a normal life, the more he wants it. The second time, it's used by Sam, quoting Dean ironically, when he's actually encouraging him to go live a normal life. They're not insulting us regular people. And even if they were, they're, y'know... fictional characters, touting a fictional lifestyle. It's a little silly to take offence.
      • Maybe they're in denial.
  • This sort of thing is always said by one hunter another. It’s not the “want” of a regular life that they are insulting but the action of actually doing it. It is shown time and again that a lot of the hunters on the show would actually like to have a normal life. The problem that they have is that there are very few people in the world that have knowledge of what actually goes on around them. The idea that someone would know about this stuff and have the ability to do something about it but would instead decide to ignore it and life as if it weren’t is what these people have a problem with. Being one of very few people that know about the “real” world, they feel it is their obligation to do something about it. They look down on those that would walk away from that obligation.
  • Original Poster here: that last answer is a good, satisfactory one.

• What happened to Castiel's vessel when he became human? It's established in the Pestilence episode that his host was still alive and craving hamburgers, so... where'd he go? He's never mentioned. So when Cas became an angel again is the body really his now, or what?
  • As noted by Pestilence, Castiel was still occupying a vessel, but by that time he was basically a human possessing another human. Not too sure what the deal is now; maybe when going between Heaven and Earth, he just keeps popping in and out of Jimmy?
    • I thought it was pretty clear that Cas wasn't actually human, he just didn't have any power. Pestilence called him 'an angel in a vessel but without a drop of angelic power'.

• Ok...I like Impala's and I can understand the Rule of Cool but driving around a rather noticeable classic car when the main focus of their mission is to be "undercover?" Really??
  • I also wondered. Furthermore, those seals that protected them from angels? Apparently, angels can fly at the speed of light. Castiel searched a whole town for an item in barely ten seconds. So, why didn't Zachariah just order one angel to fly across America and look for black Impalas occupied by two brothers? He'd probably have found them in less than an hour. Or maybe keep one angel on Bobby's shoulders? Heck, why not take Bobby hostage and ask Sam and Dean to come over?
    • Good point, although in the Season 5 finale, Chuck notes that the Devil "doesn't know or care what kind of cars the boys drive", so if that's true then it's not a far stretch to imagine that the angels don't either. Call it a HUGE strategic error on Zachariah's and/or Michael's part.

• So Samuel makes a deal with Crowley to bring Mary back, but Dean isn't cool with it because crossroads deals always end badly for everyone. They have a bust-up, and the situation spirals downward until it ends with Samuel betraying Dean to a bunch of demons and Dean swearing to hunt down and kill Samuel. Through all this, Dean has apparently forgotten that he was brought back to life, not by a demon, but by an angel. Specifically, the angel that is sitting in the next room! Maybe there's some reason Cas can't do it, but why does nobody even think to ask?!
  • My guess is that angels can only resurrect people who went to Heaven without trouble. Mary is definitely not in Hell. Ash had checked Heaven and did not find her or John either. She was a ghost, then there was that fight with poltergeist and now she is in some kind of other afterlife or does not exist anymore. And this is actually a good thing because a)she was a good person, and may be enjoying a happy afterlife, so that would be kinda cruel to pull her out; b) the second she gets out she will again become a pawn to breed new, improved and obedient apocalypse vessels, since angels can brainwash her and get her another husband (or may even resurrect John, if they can resurrect her). I think it is substantiated that neither Mary, nor John can be brought back.
  • No, it's because it's darn hard for angels to ressurrect people. Castiel didn't do it alone, they had a whole team of angels working in tandem to ressurrect him. I doubt they could convince Cas and the other angels to go to that much trouble for someone who isn't cosmically important.
  • She was a ghost, so she's in Purgatory now, which explains why Crowley is the only one who can get to her.

• Why are Dean and Sam both such bastards now? I guess Sam kinda has an excuse and Dean is probably worn down from being The Chew Toy, but how can I feel sympathy for their terrible lives if they're not likable anymore?
  • I've discovered that I can still enjoy watching the show even when they're acting like jerks, because now all the terrible things they go through each episode feels like satisfaction.
  • I still find enjoyment watching the newer seasons because I think the Apocalypse angle is fascinating, and Cas adds a nice, different dynamic to the show. Still, I can't help but find myself less compelled by newer episodes than I am rewatching the first few seasons. How long have they been promising to repair Sam and Dean's brotherly relationship now? All I've seen is continuing distrust and poorly hidden animosity. I want them to at least have some fun just as brothers, like in the early seasons. (Their prank war in Hell House comes to mind.) I know the show has always been dark, but it had some great fun moments mixed into a lot of those episodes. Nowadays, I just feel depressed after most episodes. Or maybe it's just my short-term Nostalgia Filter.

• As an anthropology major I was very disturbed by the scene in Bugs where they bring in the Native American skull to show the Anthropolgy professor who seems to see nothing wrong with the fact that his supposed students in an entry level class were screwing up a potential dig site. He also makes no mention of the lawsuits that would stem from them having custody of a Native American body under the NAGPRA (Native American Graves Protection and Reperations Act). It seems much more likely that an anthropology professor would sit a student down and scream at them for three hours than react the way he did.

• After watching "Clap your hands if you believe", I can't help but feel that the show recycles its bad guys alot. How many bad guys are gonna either have a deal of some sort of Hannibal Lecture to throw at the dup and be a mix of Manipulative Bastard Affably Evil with basically same form of speech (angry but playful)?
  • It's pretty much a given, since A) Hannibal Lectures are the purview of the powerful, in-charge-of-the-minions villains, who are B) naturally the Big Bad, since fighting through goons and following leads will naturally take you to whoever sits atop the ladder, which is gonna be the guy/girl/demon/angel/ect who's got the brains, the purview, and the mindset to give said type of speech. Which lends itself to a certain kind of villain, the above Affably Manipulative type. Since most episodes with Big Bads involve factions to some degree - packs, clans, angelic or demonic hierarchies - the boys aren't likely to run into different types of head villains unless they start taking down drug cartels or movie pirates or Something Completely Different.

• How come castiel in season six was able to find the winchester brothers instantly even though they had the markings on their ribs. From season five to keep them hidden from the angels so they always had to call cass on his cell phone in season five to tell him where they were.
  • I think Castiel appears only when a) he knew the general area they were in (like in "Caged Heat" or "The French Mistake") or b) when the boys specifically prayed to him to come. I guess fallen!Cas couldn't receive celestial calls on the soul-phone, but archangel!Cas can.
• I've been watching the show for awhile and I've noticed that just about everything supernatural happens in america how come they haven't shown what happens in other parts of the world supernatural wise. Cause in the first few season it was okay but now it's getting ridiculous.
  • Not only do the boys go to Scotland once, it's also confirmed that there are monsters in other parts of the world.
  • I just figured that hunters existed in pretty much every country, and stayed in those borders unless a hunt they started in their country took them to another and they couldn't find a hunter there to finish it up for them. They basically keep an eye on their own territory, since it'd be expensive to travel across the globe constantly from one hunt to another, let alone mailing weapons internationally.
    • Official sources, such as the sanctioned gamebook, indicate that yes, there are hunters elsewhere and they usually specialize in the local supernatural: Banshees in Ireland, aswang in the Philippines, bunyips in the Outback. Seems like the US is the place to be for demons and whatnot, probably because the culture encourages disbelief in the supernatural (giving them plenty of room to move around) and the Winchester lynchpins are in the US. As to why they don't show it, time and money constraints are obvious factors.
  • It still bugs me that everything apoclayspe related happened in America.
    • How many of the Seals do we actually see fall on-screen? It's just as likely that the ones we didn't specifically see were elsewhere in the world. The major action happens in the United States, though, because that's where the Winchesters are; without their express consent, the Apocalypse can't truly get underway.
    • Also, not everything happened in America. The above post notes that we didn't see what all the seals were, so many probably were broken in other countries; in any case, season 5 mentioned that catastrophes were happening across the globe.

• Why did bobby had to deal with crowley in "Weekend at Bobby's" cause I thought after cass resurrected bobby he wouldn't have to worry about his soul anymore.
  • Bobby's soul wasn't in Hell, it was still in Crowley's possession, so was probably nearly impossible to get at. When Dean was in Hell, his soul was laid out on the rack, not formally held by any demon, and it was still a fight to get it out. Only the demon who 'owns' the soul can release it from its deal.

• How come Dean didn't say yes to Michael at the end of "Abandon All Hope" When they realized the colt won't kill lucifer.
  • At that point, Sam and Dean were still looking for alternative options to saying yes. In their Crapsack World, they're not going to give in just because one strong option failed.

• Why isn't everybody in the world aren't monster yet cause with all the Alphas going around turning people into monsters why are there still humans around.
  • ...Because they haven't turned all humans into monsters yet? There a lot of people, you know.
  • Add in the fact that most of the monsters are solitary, and even ones with a group/pack mentality - werewolves and vampires and leprechauns - aren't exactly keen on working with others, so they probably prey on each other (or at least attack each other for territory, ect) as much as on humans. And of course, it's implied that hunters have been around for a long time and are scattered around the world, doing just enough collectively to keep major badness from occurring on a wider scale.

• Why has no one suggested using Jesse's powers into stopping the Apocalypse/ aiding the angels/ making Sam and Dean indesctructible etc. I realise it would have been God Mode for them, but it just didn't make sense.
  • I thought that entire episode was sloppy, really: Introducing a kid who could literally wish away the Apocalypse and then just having him get lost? That made the entire episode pointless. After all, if Jesse could have 'destroyed the Heavenly Host' without effort, why not ask him to do the same to the demons? Or to specific problem-cases? After they explained things, Jesse was basically a good kid who was willing to run away to protect his mom; I'm sure he wouldn't mind helping the forces of Good save the world.

• Can John not do math? In Salvation, the Colt gun had four special bullets left. The previous episode, he said the gun was made for a hunter, with thirteen magic bullets. He used a half dozen. John used one on the vampire. 13 - 6 - 1 = 6.

• Why didn't Dean used the horsemen rings to reopen Lucifer's cage so that he could free his brothers?
  • Because if he re-opened the Cage, then Lucifer and Michael - who, remember, are still in there, and who probably hate Dean waaaaaay more than they hate each other by now - could get out as well, thus re-unleashing the End Times or possibly something worse.
  • Couldn't Dean send castiel in the cage to free his brothers or brother?
  • I doubt Castiel has that kind of power....the Cage is the Cage, I assume it's as hard to get in as it's hard to get out. Not that Cas would make it out in the first place. A good idea would've been say for Dean to use his in-card with Death and use him to keep the two angels at bay or better yet rid the universe of the two once and for all......though that may have happened.

• The Table Top Role Playing Game, seen here. This is the completely nerdy neurosis of This Troper, but seems like there's nothing to set it apart from Hunter: The Reckoning besides the system and the screencaps from the show. (Hunter: The Vigil might be a comparison, but the fact that it even has Hunter organizations makes it pretty different from both Reckoning and Supernatural.) Granted, I'm sure most people didn't play Reckoning and I'm all for anything that gets new players into the hobby, but for people like me there's just no reason to buy it when you could already mod the exact same thing from either of the Hunter games, or Unknown Armies, or even Slasher (the Hunter spinoff) for the gore fans. And the Winchester situation of Angst, Angst All The Time would fit perfectly into the stereotypically Old World of Darkness.

• Why did it take so long for Dean to say yes to Michael in "Point of No Return"?
  • ...he had a few things he wanted to do before he basically died? He got far away from Sam, Bobby and Castiel, saw Lisa, then packed up his stuff and left addresses/letters for said stuff. Sam and Cas found him after that, and they prevented him from saying yes until the end.

• How come Dean didn't ask Crowley to bring back Adam?

• Why didn't Castiel realized that Christian Campbell was possessed?
  • Maybe he did and he assumed that everyone knew he was possessed. The Winchesters have been known to hang out with demons before.

• What was so evil about the angels plan?
  • It wasn't "evil", so to speak, but they were willing to let billions of people die so that the Devil could be defeated instead of just locking him up again and sparing those lives.

• Didn't Sam cause the death of countless lives by starting the apocalypse?
  • Yes, but Dean and the angels are to blame just as much.
  • On that note, I don't really get why the idea of Sam killing Lilith was such a bad thing. Neither Dean nor Sam knew that Lilith was the final seal, and that killing her would cause the apocalypse, even Dean himself says something to the effect of how were we to know killing the hand of the devil would be bad. I get that his methods were wrong, since Demon blood is bad and all but I don't get the criticism for Sam's action in trying to stop Lilith from breaking the final seal. It was only sheer irony that stopping and killing Lilith wound up freeing the Devil. Anyone who was strong enough to take out Lilith would have been guilty of the same thing.

• At the end of "Swan Song" when Sam watches Dean why does the light flicker off above his head?
  • Crowley, a demon, brought Sam back. Demonic power has a history of making the lights flicker.
  • Answered in 6.20: Castiel was the one who brought him back, and was standing with him (invisible to the audience) beneath the light. We've seen angels have that effect on electric lights before.

• When Crowley gives Sam and Dean the Colt, he specifically talks about the fact that it only kills demons and points out that Lucifer is, in fact, an angel. Then the pair completely ignore this entire conversation, go to confront the Devil and act surprised when the colt doesn't kill him. And when they meet Crowley later he says that he thought it would. This wasn't just a conversation that happened earlier or out of context that the writers just forgot about, it gets brought up and then immediately ignored as if it never took place.
  • But the Colt doesn't just kill demons. In Season One, they kill vampires with it. It's not just a demon-killing gun, it's an everything-killing gun, with a few exceptions. They'd never tried it on an angel before, so no one knows what it'll do.
  • Also, Crowley very specifically gave them the gun in order to kill Lucifer. "What happens if it doesn't work?" "Well, I guess we all get to prepare for Hell on Earth. Or maybe you could just NOT MISS! MORONS!"

• In "Jump the Shark," I presume that Sam needs stitches afterwards, and probably a blood transfusion. Which means going to a hospital. And the cuts are going to look like a suicide attempt. Wouldn't they hold him for observation?
  • Yeah, but not for long and he wasn't actually suicidal.
  • As someone who's worked in the medical profession, and spent some time as an intake nurse on several psych wards, I can say it depends on the individual hospital. Yes, we're supposed to admit anyone who looks like a suicide attempt and/or has stated they have thoughts of harming themselves, but I've been in hospitals where a suicidal patient is only kept on hold if they say they want to hurt others, too. Sad but true.

• Way back in Season 1, Dean injures his heart and only has a few weeks to live, and Sam leaves John a voicemail message telling him so, and John never calls them back or shows up. Dean and Sam later call John out about this and he doesn't explain or excuse himself at all. It's like he doesn't even care that Dean is dying, yet a couple days later he sells his soul (and the Colt) to save Dean's life. What's going on here? Obviously, guilt was involved (partly because the Yellow-Eyed Demon was wearing John when he tortured Dean) but why didn't John give a shit about Dean dying before?

• In the episode with the Crossroads demon, we see the blues player and Dean kiss the demon to seal the deal. In "All Hell Breaks Loose," again, we see Dean kiss the Crossroads demon to bring Sam back. Now, if we go back to the first episode of season 2, where John makes the deal with the Yellow Eyed Demon, does that mean to seal it, he had to kiss Yellow Eyes? If so, that's some heavily implied Foe Yay.
  • Considering Crowley had a man kiss him, this is actually highly likely.
    • And with the information that YED and Lilith seem to both be above and beyond as far as demonic power (they both get special eyes, even) and the fact that Lilith's deals require sex to be sealed....well, then.
    • I always figured that Lilith was lying about needing sex to seal her deal because it would be more fun to corrupt Sam in that way.
    • I can't see that being the case. Sam had already been sleeping with Ruby, so sleeping with another demon couldn't have been much more corrupting. Second, if she'd really just been doing it to mess with him, she could have done a lot worse than picking a pleasing, adult female vessel (completely out of character for her unless it became necessary) to do it in.

• So if Micheal's possible vessels are bloodline related (Dean, John) doesn't that include Sam? Michael vessels Sam, kills Lucifer, angels are happy, humans don't die, Win, Win...
  • Dean has been stated to be Michael's One True Vessel, any other vessel would slowly fall apart over time, the way Nick is with Lucifer. Also, Sam was tainted with demon blood as an infant which, according to Castiel, makes him "of course, an abomination." Adam likely wouldn't have lasted that long, but he was only the vessel for like a week.
    • Also, Michael didn't care if humans died. He's more of a kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out kind of guy.

• The Wishing Well episode: how exactly did that little girl's parents get back from Bali?
  • Same way Sam came back to life: Their wish was undone.
  • Plane?

• Question: If Dean was in hell for 40 years as a result of being off earth for four months, does that mean that Sam's (soul) has been in hell for 180 years after being off earth for a year and a half?
  • I don't remember the exact details, but Sam wasn't in Hell for the whole year-and-a-half; he was hunting with the Campbells for quite a bit before he met up with Dean. Pretty sure his time in the Cage was a year at the most. Although I thought that the time ratio in the Cage was even worse than the time ratio in normal Hell (something like one month = 20 years?), although perhaps I'm making that up...
    • I don't remember anybody mentioning time in the cage being longer than time in normal hell. I'm sure it seems longer, since it's so awful, but yes, Sam's soul would be in the cage for a hundred and eighty years. He's been in there ever since he fell in with Lucifer: when he was hunting with the Campbells he was still soulless.

• At the end of Season 2, The Yellow-eyed Demon needs the gun to unlock the Devil's Gate. Okay. But he doesn't need it loaded, so why does he leave the bullets in the gun? Even if he can be pretty sure Jake won't shoot him at the tracks, why risk it?
  • He probably planned on using it in the Heaven-Hell War.
  • Fridge Brilliance: Notice how he was going to shoot Dean with it at the end? Dean was the intended vessel for Archangel Michael... and presumably, the Colt can kill a human being dead beyond the power of angel resurrection. Azazel was trying to set up his boss with an easy win before the fight even started.

• What happened to the colt?
  • It's assumed that they lost it when they had to run away after using it against Lucifer. Still, it's weird that they never mentioned it again.
  • Alternatively, with the revelation of the Season 4 Finale that Ruby is evil they might not trust the Colt anymore. How do we know Ruby didn't fix the colt, then sabotage it so it doesn't kill Lucifer. Maybe the gun will blow up if used again, as a last minute resort. They can't trust it anymore, and so far they've been doing fine without it.

• So Eve can be killed by the ashes of a phoenix (incidentally, does that mean she's truly dead, or just back in Purgatory? Is there anything stopping the dragons from going somewhere, possibly somehwere not in America, and summoning her right back?). And um...why? The phoenix is a monster, so did she make it? Why create a monster that can kill you? And how does anyone know about this anyway, it's been like 10000 years since she was around.
  • The phoenix we met seemed like a nice guy, and in most cultures they're not considered monsters. I think God made it, like the angels. The Colt can kill anything, with rare exceptions, whether they're a "monster" or something else.

• How come cas didn't just turn lenore into a human instead of killing her?
  • Uh... has it ever been said, or even implied, that he has the power to do that?
    • Cas did turn Dean back to normal.
      • Dean turned back by drinking the blood of the vampire who turned him - Castiel wasn't even in that episode.
        • I was talking about mommy dearest.
        • Ah, okay; but that's a completely different situation. Dean hadn't fully turned into one of the, uh, starships and had only been becoming one for all of five minutes when Cas fixed him (and the starship thing is a disease, so it doesn't seem that different from any of the times he's healed someone before) - Lenore had been a vampire for years and it's noted that she's fed, which judging from past episodes seems to be some kind of point of no return.

• How come eve didn't create something like the jefferson starships sooner?
  • She's said that she was fine with the way things were...her babies turning some and then being hunted by some. It was only Crowley provoking her that made her want to make the entire planet into monsters.

• Why was everybody so dead-set against bringing Sam's soul back again? Because it was so damaged from being locked in with Mike and Lucy? You would think that would be more incentive to get him out—sure, he's probably permanently damaged, but at least he's not in the cage still being tortured! I mean, it's kind of like saying that somebody who was in a horrible accident should just be left to die, because if they were saved they'd have their arms amputated or something. Isn't damaged-but-saved better than damaged-and-still-being-damaged-by-two-furious-angels-in-hell?
  • They discussed whether what they had was actually Sam or not, and I believe it was Castiel who said that was a very important philosophical question. Perhaps they had doubts as to really how important the soul was, and if sacrificing RoboSam was worth it. Better RoboSam than a drooling, mind(soul?)-raped Sam.
  • And demons are created by being tortured non-stop for years. Might make you think twice about bringing back someone who has been tortured for centuries.

• So Eve is the oldest monster...and she didn't see the old "holy water in the blood" trick coming? Well, ashes of the phoenix, but whatever. Seriously, she better still be alive, and just faking her death.
  • Well she's been in Purgatory before this season and no doubt hasn't been around for ages. So such a trick would most likely be unknown to her.

• Anyone else remember when the show was legitmately scary? Those first three seasons? The fact that that's no longer the case is what really bugs me.
  • You know what this is asking for? A flame war. So let's move on, please.

• How would Cas memory wiping Lisa and Ben would've worked cause wouldn't they eventually encounter somethings that would just there memory?
  • John Winchester never remembered meeting Dean and Sam in the past, so we can assume angel memory wipes are really effective.
    • I figured that John eventually got his memory back when he died and wouldn't Lisa and Ben's neighbors go around asking about Dean triggering their memories and what about the black guy?
    • Lisa moved into a new house in 6.02; it's unlikely her new neighbours knew Dean. As for Dr Matt, if his body's still at her house it'll seem like he was surprised by an intruder and murdered while she and Ben were at the hospital.

• Did angels always needed a vessel to appear on earth what about Adam and Eve?
  • In Castiel's first appearance he tells Dean that some 'special' humans can communicate with angels directly.
    • But when the human race first existed was everybody special or did the humans become special?
    • This troper's personal headcanon is that those 'special people' are descendants of fallen angels.
  • Assuming the show's mythology uses the literal "Adam and Eve" as in "the first two humans" thing, then I would assume that two humans handcrafted by God himself would indeed be capable of seeing and interacting with angels.

• Why was Dean Michael's vessel and why was Sam Lucifer's vessel I think they should've reversed that?
  • Sam was fed demon blood as a baby; Dean and Adam weren't.
  • Gabriel explained it as having as much to do with their personalities as anything; Dean was the dutiful son, loyal and obedient to an absent, neglectful father, where as Sam was rebellious and independent, mirroring Micheal and Lucifer's relationships with God.

• Why did the boys distrust Cas?
  • He was lying and not telling them things; that makes it easy to distrust someone. Plus, they were right to.

• Why is nearly every woman on the show killed or at least dealt one fatal injury? They insert nice females just to kill them! I don't get it! Why have them in there at all?
  • It's not like the men come off unscathed. Our two leads have died several times. Both have spent time in Hell. And just because they die doesn't mean they aren't necessary characters. If you think taking hits means they're somehow worth less as characters, or that they should be spared pain just because of their gender, you've got a Double Standard.
  • Well, the show has been accused of being sexist by critics and on fan forums over its dealings with female characters, so you certainly aren't the only one to think this. Female characters don't seem to last very long on the show, with the majority only appearing in one episode before being killed off. It has been suggested that this happens because the makers pay attention to fan reactions to the show (it's how Castiel became a regular, after all), and due to the large number of female viewers, they don't want to upset those fans by introducing a female who might "threaten" the current balance of the show. Though this is merely a theory. There were also complaints about the Double Standard in regards to SPN's torture scenes (Meg's overly sexualized torture scene, especially in comparison to the way male torture is portrayed, upset a fair few fans.) It's a common complaint that many fans have.
    • Some more context is required here. A while back, someone counted, and found that the show used the word "bitch" a large number of times over the first three seasons, IIRC. usual outrage. Problem was, there was no mention of context, no mention of who was saying it, no mention of who it was addressed to, and no comparison against the incidence of other slurs. It was just...data. It's usually Dean, who is kind of a jerk, and usually refers to female demons. Dean has also used homosexuality as an insult(despite actually being tolerant), but that makes fangirls squeal in joy. As does any sexualized torture of our male leads. I suspect the complaints are partially because most of the fanbase is women, and partially because the idea of women as being especially vulnerable is still one we need to shake off. Both can easily create a observer-expectancy effect.

• In the Season 6 finale, did Dean call Cas Crowley's "fuckbuddy"? Because I know this show pushes the limits of network TV, but, uh, are they allowed to curse like that?
  • Nah, he said "butt buddy".

• How come none of the spells could ever be said in english?
  • ...Because most of the spells come from the lorebooks? Many of which are old? Meaning the spells would be in some language that came before English - like, say, Latin?

• Is a purgatory native any type of monster or a monster that existed in purgatory?
  • A purgatory native seems to only cover a monster who originated in purgatory. I would guess that vampires who were turned, most shifters, rougarous, etc. wouldn't count as they originated/were born here on earth and not in purgatory.

• Why exactly did Lucifer and Michael even needed human vessels to begin with? Don't angels only take human forms on earth to prevent harming humans and burning their eyes out? But since neither Lucifer or Michael seem to care whether or not they harm humans, why not just fight each other in their true forms? Wouldn't fighting in human vessels only make their destined battle a bit...restricted?
  • There are three answers to your question 1, Lucifer used a vessel so his demon followers wouldn't get hurt when was on earth. 2, I do think that the angels do care about humans somewhat escipally because after the fighting was done the angels were going to turn this world into a paradise. Which would've been hard if not impossible if they were burning the eyes out of the humans. 3, It's been stated that an angel or archangel are stronger when they use their vessels while on earth and since Michael and Lucifer wanted to be at their strongest. It would make sense that they would take vessels while on earth and could an archangel kill another archangel vesselless anyway?

• Why didn't Cas just use the souls Crowley gave to him to kill Raphael?
  • You mean the 50,000 soul loan? Judging by the fact that Lucifer and Michael were both archangels and would've had to go through a battle royale to kill each other, I'd say that the mere 50k Cas had on loan would be nowhere near enough to kill Raphael. That's why they continued to look for purgatory and its millions. Alternatively, maybe the point wasn't just to kill off Raphael, but to gain enough power and support that both he and his followers were effectively neutralized. Killing the general of an army doesn't end a war.

• Why aren't experienced demon hunters on a regular diet of holy water and communion crackers? Wouldn't that help reduce the demonic possessions by at least 50%? Now that its been done, I can't see why it wasn't done sooner.
  • Maybe they just can't get hold of enough (thin excuse, I know). Or maybe they weaken when ingested, meaning they'd have to be taken inconveniently often. Was this in an episode? If so, what were the circumstances?
    • yeah some parts of this idea this was brought up in two episodes and in Season 4 and 6. season 4, Dean injects Alastair with holy water and it hurts him, seeing that Alastair was more powerful than Azazel and Azazel didn't flinch at a bit of holy water in the face, that says something. Annnnd Season 6, Dean, again, swallows the contents of a special bullet with whiskey to kill Eve, the Mother of All Monsters, when she bites him. Plus these doses were really effective but not very big. IJDGI.
      • Hmmm. Clutching at straws a bit here, but I'd say directly injecting holy water would probably work better than ingesting it (in Born Under A Bad Sign, it took Meg!Sam a few seconds to react to the holy water in the beer, but that might have been because it was diluted). Phoenix ash might be more potent than holy water (especially since it's the only thing that can kill Eve). Also - this sounds kind of stupid in my head already, but whatever - maybe there's some kind of volume-related weakening with holy water - it's possible that the larger the area of water being blessed, the less powerful the blessing, meaning that you'd probably have to bless each seperate glass of holy water you drank to get something potent enough to be useful. But that's just my rusty and corroded two cents worth.

• Since season 4 they deal with demons... a lot. And their only weapon able to kill demons, is 1 knife. I know they are badass and so on, but couldnt they ask Cass to get them some weaponary? If human, Mr. Colt could make a demon-killing gun, Angels shouldnt have problems with that, and a firearm would be much more useful than a knife. 1 knife, when there are 2 of them...
  • Ah, but knives don't run out of bullets...

• Why isn't Eve called Echidna? They were obviously going for that whole Biblical thing, but she turned out to have nothing to do with the Biblical Eve at all, whereas Echidna is historically known as the Mother of Monsters.
  • Because she isn't the only Mother Type Entity to give birth to Monsters. Nyx, Gaia, and even Echidnas own Mother Ceto have given birth to quite a few creatures. Hell Ceto is the Mother of All Sea Monsters. She could have been any of them.

• Why didn't Eve just used the souls from purgatory to become the new god?
  • I believe it was mentioned at some point that Eve was perfectly happy with the natural order of things (monsters being killed by humans); she only started her big turn-everyone-into-monsters gambit after Crowley started torturing her children. I doubt the thought ever really crossed her mind.
    • It still seems like a wasted plot line and if she was the new god couldn't she helped turn everyone into monsters faster and/or defeat Crowley?
      • It's also possible that she wasn't prepared to take the risk of absorbing Purgatory's souls; considering how powerful souls are, it's probably borderline suicidal to absorb so many - Cas either got lucky, or the nastier effects of the souls have been delayed. I'd say Eve knows more about Purgatory than Cas does, meaning that if she didn't go the "soul swallowing" route, there was a pretty damn good reason why.
        • I kinda of find it hard to believe that the souls that she created could be that dangerous to her.
        • She didn't create all of them; she is the Mother of All Monsters because she mothered the Alphas. They then began propagating their species, whether by conversion of humans or reproduction within their ranks. Either way, only the souls of the Alphas or any creatures she herself converted would really be considered "her" souls. Besides, souls are still souls, no matter how they were created, and souls have their own rules.
  • Three theories: 1. She felt like a mother to her monsters and wouldn't use them like that; 2. She already "owned" the souls, and was already just as powerful as God!Castiel, but weak to phoenix ash anyway; 3. She thought she was already much more powerful than anything else and didn't feel the need to obtain more power.

• If the creature who possessed Eleanor Visyak's body didn't kill Lovecraft and the rest of the dinner party, who/what did?
  • Some other escaped beastie that wasn't too smart about covering its tracks and got itself killed by hunters? Even though I'm not sure they have a particular method of killing Purgatory beasties.

• Oh dear god, Jimmy. Is Jimmy's soul still alive, or did it explode when Cas did at the end of season 5, and was it not brought back by God when Cas was...?
  • On a related note, if Jimmy is alive, suddenly he has just been joined by the millions of souls of purgatory. Vampires, wraiths, and all other kinds of monsters. If Cas can feel them, maybe they are aware of each other? ...This self-sacrificing Christian family man is now sharing a body with practically all the monsters that Dean and Sam have ever killed.
  • Furthermore, they say that being a vessel for an Angel is painful because it's like being dragged by a comet... What is it like to be a vessel for God?...
    • I was really hoping this would be addressed. The boys could have laid a possibly effective guilt trip on Castiel by bringing it up. "The man gave everything to you, and this is how you thank him? By using his body as a holding cell of souls?" However, if he is in fact still alive, that brings up a more interesting question. Can the consent he gave be withdrawn? If he was aware of what Castiel was up to, you'd think Jimmy would kick him to the curb before letting him use his body like that.

• If demons are just amped up ghosts, why is Sam not immune to them?
  • Sam isn't immune to ghosts or demons.

• How did Molly from Route 41 leave the earth? No one burned her remains and there's a good chance she missed her Reaper.
  • It's been shown that ghosts can be dispatched in several different ways. Burning the remains or following a Reaper are just two possible options. In Molly's case, she was still tethered to the mortal realm by virtue of not knowing/understanding her ultimate fate (this constituting her 'unfinished business') and possibly due to the influence of Jonah Creeley. Once these obstacles were removed, however, she finally managed to accept her death and move on of her own volition.

• Why didn't Dean get anti-possession tattoos for Lisa and Ben?
  • Ben's only around 11 years old. There's no way he would have been able to get a tattoo. As for Lisa, maybe she just didn't want to get one or it didn't occur to him.
    • Actually that would depend on the state; several states make it perfectly legal for a child, even as young as 11, to get a tattoo with the parent's consent. Even without that consent, many tattoo artists are unlicensed and willing to stretch/break the rules for the right price.
  • OK, barring tattoos, why not amulets?

• What's the deal with magic? There hasn't been any kind of explanation about where magic comes from. This might be okay if it were all fairly low level, but when humans who aren't even witches can use magic to bind Death, it demands an explanation for why saying Latin words over various bits of earthly junk can control cosmic forces. Did God make magic, is it just built into the universe, and how does it differ from angelic, demonic etc. powers?
  • Judging by some of the things said in that episode, it seems pretty clear that all magic are summoning/binding rituals, and then you make the summoned entity do stuff. You just need extremely specific materials and invocations for it, so its not going to work unless you really know what you're doing.

• I can't seem to wrap my mind around the whole angelic possession thing. The idea of a "true vessel" was only an issue in the cases of Michael and Lucifer, but wouldn't it make sense, then, that all archangels have true vessels? Gabriel and Zachariah were always in the same body, while Castiel switched that one time, and Anna apparently had her body restored just because she was attached to it. But then there's Raphael, who at first was only seen in that one black guy's body, but when it was destroyed by Balthazar, he had to switch. Shouldn't the new body have started to fall apart? On a similar note, Crowley always confused me a little bit. I realize it's extremely impractical to cast a new actor for every time a demon switches hosts, but Crowley seems adamantly attached to his body. Even when it would make sense for him to switch he doesn't, like when he's trying to evade Castiel. Also, in "Weekend At Bobby's," the ghost of Crowley's son seemed to recognize him, even though it is clear by the end of the episode that he is not in fact possessing his own dead body, which I suppose could be plausible.
  • Well, Balthazar destroyed Raphael's vessel specifically so he'd have to spend a while "shopping for a new vessel", which implies that Raph does need a "special" vessel or what have you. With Crowley...I don't know. Maybe he just likes the vessel? Could be any reason, really. But yes, it probably is just for the convenience of not switching actors.
  • Two ways Raphael's new body makes sense: 1. It's not permanent, and it would have fallen apart had Raphael not been killed so quickly. We don't see him in it long. 2. The new vessel is related to the old vessel; the ability to be a vessel runs in families. Both are black (the same tint of black), so it's possible. As far as true vessels go, Michael said that while Dean was his true vessel, he's not his only vessel. That implies that other vessels can sustain him...they're just not as good somehow?
    • This seems like the best explanation. Although it wasn't confirmed with Raphael, all the other angels who switch hosts stay within a single bloodline (i.e. Michael appearing in John and Adam and Castiel appearing in Jimmy's daughter). "True" vessels, at least in the case of Michael and Lucifer, seem to also depend on birth order and/or combined bloodlines. That means that Lucifer's host is, distantly, related to Sam and Dean.

• From "Night Shifter": don't real life SWAT teams have ways to prevent Dressing as the Enemy?

• In "Meet the New Boss," couldn't Death still have killed Castiel even after he released him from the bind? He didn't exactly seem like he was a fan of Castiel, and if he was willing to create a whole solar eclipse out of thin air, why not just kill him and cut out the middle man?
  • Death likes to follow rules. He could kill anyone at any given moment, but he seems to prefer letting things take their course (unless someone's rude enough to bump into him). Also, Castiel had just released him, and he seemed duty bound not to kill him in that instance out of gratitude.

• I don't usually mind the amount of time it takes for people to heal, because it happens in the background, in between episodes, without attention being drawn to how ridiculous it is. However, in "The Girl Next Door", Dean says his leg would heal in five days, and he even breaks the cast off prematurely, and he doesn't even have a limp. It's a perfectly fine episode otherwise, but that part of it just bugs me.

• ...why did Dean have to cross the Moral Event Horizon by murdering Amy? I mean, dear god it was almost like Sam had gotten through and then he gets Aesop Amnesia and murders a perfectly innocent women (who happens to be a 'freak') for no reason. He can't even hide behind 'she'll kill again', because she works at a place which provides the sustenance needed.
  • She killed in the first place to help her sick son. I don't get how you can not see the possibility for future killings there. What if her son gets sick again? What if she got sick?
  • Yet she killed thieves, drug dealers, and general scumbags. What if that sickness was the thing that comes from a Kitsune maturing into one, thus never coming again? Dean killed her because she is a 'freak', plain as day.
    • Nope, he killed her because she killed humans. If it was only because she was a freak, he'd kill the boy too. Though...I think Dean made a really stupid move. I mean who is going to feed the kid now? He is just forcing the kid to kill. He should have either left Amy alive or killed the kid as well.
    • When she had NO OTHER CHOICE. Her son was going through an illness. And she killed-you know, criminals. Sorry, you feel more sorry for her and you condemn Dean for killing her. You seriously think HE was in the right there?
    • It's obvious Dean didn't understand why he was doing it either. He kills the mother, but let's the kid go - after letting the kid see him kill his mother, thus ensuring the kid would grow up to be a vengeful 'monster', instead of being raised with his mother's 'humane' diet and her values had she loved. The fact that Dean couldn't bring himself to kill a kid, even a MONSTER kid who would probably grow up to be a killer, proves that he knew what he was doing was seriously, seriously wrong.
    • Not to mention it makes Dean a total hypocrite. When Gordon was trying to kill Sam, it was horribly and wrong, even though Sam WAS a freak and capable of snapping and killing someone. But when it's someone else's family, they're fair game, regardless of their actions or motives. Way to go, Dean.
    • The bottom line is that Amy was killing humans. It doesn't matter what kind of scumbags the humans are; she has no right to judge which humans should live and which should not. It doesn't matter if she's doing it for her son, because that means she values the life of her son/her kind over the life of a human being. In fact, when she killed the humans, she had no way of knowing it would definitely save her son, so that justifies it even less. That, and the fact that she had no way of knowing if the sickness would ever return and no other way of dealing with it, puts her firmly in the "irredeemable" column for me. As for Dean leaving the kid alive, I believed the kid when he said "the only person I'm going to kill is you." It sounded very much like a You Killed My Father type of Heroic Vow.
    • Honestly while I do feel she needed to punished for it I can't find her irredeemable. It's not like other characters in this show haven't done stupid things with no way of knowing if it would work or not. I also think it's only natural that a mother would value the life of her child more than someone else. She needed to be punished or atone for what she did but there are other ways to do that then just killing her and turning her son into someone who would avenger her death one day.
      • Whose going to teach her son to stay on the straight and narrow now that she's dead? Not to mention that if Dean had to kill several monsters to save Sam's or Bobby's life, he'd do it. Its just hypocritical on how humans get special treatment and free reign to kill monsters, yet 'monsters' don't get the same courtesy.
        • Heck, if Dean had to kill several humans to save Sam or Bobby, he'd do it.
    • This headscratcher is pure Protagonist-centered morality at play here. Is being a drug dealer really less redeemable than being a murderer? Do you support capital punishment for drug dealers? The audience sees them as unnamed characters who are entirely defined to us as "thieves, drug dealers, and general scumbags", but in-universe they're real people who are just as much alive as Amy and her son. Dean killed Amy because he doesn't believe that being a criminal immediately means that your life is no longer worth saving.
      • And by that same logic, he has no right to kill Amy.
        • Only if all crimes are equal, which sane people do not hold to be true. Amy wasn't just a criminal, she was a serial murderer.
        • And none of her victims were? I doubt the 'score' matters at all.
        • Which one of her victims was shown to be a murderer, again? All I'm seeing here is "If they don't get at least 5 minutes of screen time, then fuck'em".
  • I think Dean was seriously influenced by the Rougarou (the cannibal monster). They tried to tell the guy how not to feed, and as far as they could tell, he just snapped anyway. He didn't, of course, he was saving his wife, but they didn't realize that. Combine with the vegetarian vampire girl who relapsed, not to mention his time as a vampire...yeah, he just has an overall darker outlook on monsters now.

• Dean Again. It seems like the writers don't know what to do with his character and are sending him straight into derailment territory. Last episode he was insisting that they had to kill Amy even if her victims had been criminals, now he claims he's rooting for the ghosts who were going after drunk drivers and murderers? Make up your freaking mind, Dean.
  • They're trying to show that Dean is extending his own self-hatred at being a killer and his desire to be punished to other people. Sam pokes some very large holes in this mentality, so the show isn't presenting him as having a full collection of marbles. Basically, he's inconsistent because he's going crazy.

• I was surprised in "Defending Your Life" that nobody, especially Sam, mentioned Azazel. Sam was literally destined to get sucked back into supernatural stuff, with Dean or without him. In fact, If Dean had not come along, Sam might have been more easily influenced to join Azazel, and if not he'd be dead, probably for good. I just don't think Dean has any real reason to feel guilty when it comes to Sam.

• Anyone else bummed that Osiris didn't call John Winchester as a witness in "Defending Your Life"? I mean, he essentially gave his life for Dean, so shouldn't Dean have the most reason to feel guilty about his death?
  • John didn't appear in a few seasons, getting the actor to return was probably too much of a bother.
  • That's almost right: the cast and crew have said on a few occasions that we'll probably never see John on-screen again, since JDM has finally made it in the movie business and can't just take time off to come and do an episode. So it's not so much that it's a bother, particularly as JDM has said before that he'd really like to come back, but fitting it into his schedule is apparently nearly impossible.

• Just re-watched Swap Meat and...was anyone else really squicked out by the idea of Gary having sex with Crystal? Not only is this a teenager having really kinky sex with someone who's at least ten years older than him, but he's doing it in Sam's body. Talk about violation.

• The conflict of Sam in season 4 bothers me. Sam was drinking demon blood, and Dean was pissed about it. It kind of made sense at first, and it started out as more of a moral question than anything, but towards the end of the season, the show tried to make Sam out as definitely wrong for doing so. Why? What's one good reason why? It was all to kill Lilith, which Dean was just as willing to do. If it was about Sam disobeying the angels, why did Dean care? By this point the angels were ineffective dicks, and we all knew that. It made sense for Sam to seek out his own way. The fact that it all ended up freeing Lucifer does nothing to weaken Sam's heroic image in my mind. After all, it was all because of the deception of the angels, and if they had given Dean the colt and Lilith, Lucifer would have been freed at his hands. What makes this even worse for me is that they had Chuck say that drinking demon blood was bad in and of itself, even though he didn't know what it was going to lead to, and SAM seems to have serious qualms about doing it (and keep in mind, this is pre-betrayal by Ruby.)
  • Well, Dean has a pretty well-documented history of hypocrisy because he still has a sort of black-and-white view of things. And while Dean could have been the one to free Lucifer under the right conditions, I believe that both the angels and the demons wanted Sam to be present at the release so that he could be possessed by Lucifer and then the angels would have even more leverage for getting Dean to say yes (they probably didn't count on Cas rebelling and God interfering, however). As for why drinking the demon blood was being portrayed as a bad thing, I think it's because they were trying to show that Sam was becoming less and less human as a result. That's how I perceived it, anyway.
  • It's true that Sam was tricked into believing killing Lilith was the right thing to do, but there were a few warning signs: 1. Ruby was clearly manipulating him: leaving him for weeks on end without blood, telling him he's the only one who can stop Lilith, comforting him with sex. 2. The withdrawal-induced hallucination of Mary told him it was a good idea. You don't want to go trusting your hallucinations. 3. He was freed from the panic room, and he knew it wasn't Ruby who did it. He could have examined all of these events closely and realized he was being deceived, but he didn't. His sin wasn't wanting to kill Lilith; it was pride. Pride led him to believe he was saving the world, that he could use obviously evil powers for good, that he was a stronger hunter than his brother, that Ruby was helping him out of loyalty instead of an ulterior motive. If he had taken a moment to evaluate the events happening around him without the taint of pride, then he would have averted beginning the apocalypse. Also, Chuck's warning was less about "sucking blood is bad" and more about questioning exactly what Sam's motivations were. When Sam tries to justify using his powers with the usual "I'm being practical" defense, Chuck asks if that's the whole story, if he's also doing it because the blood makes him feel powerful. Sam denies it but from his expression you can tell it's true.

• After Sam came back and met Samuel, how did he know for sure Samuel was his grandfather? In the only time-travel trip Sam was present for, Samuel was already dead, so Sam wouldn't have known what Samuel looked like.
  • They had a long time to figure it out, and even if all Sam knew was his grandfather's name, their families probably came up at some point.

• Is it just me or does God come across as a real jerk in this series? He created the Leviathans and locked them away for being what he made them. He created angels to be obedient soldiers and then abandons them leaving them directionless and doing nothing about the angelic civil war. Beings who have for eons been denied most or all free will are all of a sudden told to use it. He created the Earth, let it become inhabited by pagan gods, Eve, monsters and who knows what else only to take it over to create humanity. He pushes aside the angels for his new creation. He leaves all of the monsters on Earth turning it into a crapsack world. He imprisoned Lucifer, but allowed the creation of hell and its demons to continue to terrorize Earth. He allowed the Apocalypse to mess with the cycle of life and death. As far as the angels know the Apocalypse seems to be God's plan, but He never says anything. One theory I've heard is the Apocalypse was the point of everything, but not the way the angels thought. It was to set up free will or prove humanity is somehow better than angels by choosing family over God or doing what you want instead of what you are told. Aside from it being highly questionable if it proved humans are better God comes across as setting up the entire universe and all that suffering, screwing over his loyal followers just to prove a point. Even then it is questionable if he did so since God several times intervened to make sure things turned out the way He wanted instead of allowing free will to take its course. He favors one creation until He gets bored and goes to another and manipulates the entire universe just to prove appoint to no one but himself.
  • There's the whole rationale people use for God in the real world: that pain and strife exist to teach people how to be good. But yeah, the Supernatural!God needs to get His mission straight.
  • Didn't the Pagan Gods in one episode talk about how they were there first and that God came to the Earth later?
    • I think in "Hammer of the Gods" Kali claimed that, but throughout the series the pagan gods have come across as more just a more powerful monster with eating human flesh and all than a god. The Judeo-Christian God has been stated or at least implied to be far more powerful since it is attributed with creating everything, its archangels went through a group of pagan gods with ease, and it is usually attributed as the creator of everything. At best it seems to have created the Earth, pagan gods, monsters, and what else were either created, somehow developed or moved in and eons later God returned and decided to create humans pushing everyone else including his own angels aside.
    • While Kali and the other pagans claim to have been on earth first, Death claims that he and god predate the creation of earth by quite a bit, and he implies that there are other planets with life out there (possibly sentient) that God could have been giving his attention to before he turned it towards earth. In that bad future episode where Lucifer wins, he refers to earth as "god's last, perfect creation", implying that the oldest angels predate earth as well. Assuming either of them can be taken at face value, it would seem God made earth, said "ok, gonna let this bake for a bit while I go check on my other projects", and came back later.
      • They probably thought that God wasn't there yet because nobody worshiped him. How were they supposed to know whether He was there, anyway?
      • Interestingly enough, the oldest parts of the bible and worship of the abrahamic god can be dated back to somewhere between 1100-900 bc, where as Kali herself has only been worshiped as a distinct deity in the hindu pantheon since 600bc.

• Am I the only one that feels sorry for the Archangel Michael? Yes, he was a jerk at times, but look at it. He was created to be obedient, told to follow the plan and served God loyally since that time. God leaves without warning or explanation leaving Michael to try and manage things on his own by following his Father's example. Seeing what humans do to each other could make anyone jaded. He thinks the Apocalypse is part of his Father's plan and for the ultimate good so like a good son he follows it. With Lucifer and Earth he has three choices. One, carry on as he has and let humans continue to suffer for generations or when Lucifer does eventually escape perhaps not have the proper vessel to confront him allowing Lucifer to unleash Hell on Earth. Two, side with Lucifer over God his Father unleashing hell on Earth. Three, bring about the Apocalypse under his terms to make sure he can defeat Lucifer, end human suffering, bring about paradise all the while fulfilling what he thinks is his Father's plan. How is his loyalty rewarded? He is pushed aside for humans, what he thought was God's plan was not and he was never told, and ultimately locked in the same cage as Lucifer presumable abandoned by God. I would be pissed too if I were him.
  • He probably wasn't enough of a dick to get stuck in the cage with Lucifer forever, but if I remember correctly, nobody pushed him in. He jumped.

• After re-watching "The Monster At The End Of This Book," I realized that Lilith basically TOLD Sam, at one point, that killing her would be the last seal. Not in so many words; to paraphrase, she said, "Turns out I don't survive this war. Killed off, right before the good part." Now, any idiot can figure out that the "good part" she's referring to is actually the advent of the Apocalypse. But by saying she would be killed off at that moment, she is essentially confirming that her death is necessary in order to get the end times started. So...was Sam just not thinking when she said that? It wouldn't make sense for him to think that she was bluffing, unless he assumed that Lilith was trying to rationalize her offer; however, this seems somewhat unlikely.
  • I believe Sam's judgement was rather clouded at the time, and even if he did believe Lilith and stop to think this through, all he would have known for sure was that Lilith thought she was about to be killed. That could be explained in all sorts of ways - when I watched it for the first time, I somehow came to the conclusion that after Lucifer gets released, he would kill Lilith off because she held too much power (just like she wanted to kill Sam when the demons thought he was supposed to lead them), and only then start the 'good part'. It's absurd in hindsight, but I'm trying to say that demons tend to be rather vague and Sam couldn't have been sure what she means by that anyway.

• Let me get this straight: After having to find out his friend was murdered by his brother, who went on to claim that he didn't even feel a little bit bad about killing her and that Sam is a bitch for being mad about it, Sam forgives Dean. Allow me to count my problems with this:
  • Dean was having nightmares about killing Amy. Why would he if that's not the part he feels bad about?
  • If Dean has no qualms about killing someone who very possibly would never kill again (Amy), why didn't he kill the guy who almost definitely will kill in the future (Amy's son)?
  • All Dean did when he yelled at Sam was reiterate the reason he was pro-kill-Amy in episode three. It's pretty obvious logic. Did Sam really not consider that perhaps Dean was justified because of that logic in his 10 day trip?
  • Sam forgiving Dean so quickly and completely doesn't seem realistic to me. Dean's total lack of guilt combined with the way he told Sam off seems like it would anger Sam further more than anything. I could even see Sam confronting Dean about it less because he knows Dean wouldn't budge on the issue, but Sam seems almost apologetic about his disappointment with Dean.
    • Sam's just as screwed up as Dean is, and I don't really understand what's going on in his head right now, but it could be that he doesn't trust his own judgement any better than he trusts Dean's or doesn't feel like he's allowed to judge anyone, especially after Dean yelling at him that he nearly got both of them killed. Either that, or he's taking his weird "forgive self, be happy" thing a bit too seriously and extending it at Dean. Or it's just bad writing.
    • As of episode 9, it seems like he was too busy being worried about Dean. He does understand that something's wrong with him, after all.

• What happened to Sam's demon powers? Some demon said at some point that he doesn't actually need to drink demon blood because the power is part of him, but getting it in the first place involved a demon bleeding into him - so if dying and coming back to life involves a brand new body, then does he even have the blood anymore?
  • Well, I tend to believe that Sam got his powers when Azazel bled into his mouth as a baby, but that's irrelevant to my point. I'm pretty sure that, whether or not Sam's powers are innate, he needs to drink demon blood in order to amplify them or rather, to get them running again. His powers made a return (after drinking demon blood) in "My Bloody Valentine" when he and Dean were hunting Famine. So it seems that what Ruby meant by "You didn't need the feather to fly, you had it in you the whole time," was that Sam's powers have always been present within him, it's just that he needs to take a certain path to "activate" them, if you will, by drinking blood. It's a little roundabout, but that's how I interpreted it.
  • Sam did get the power when Azazel bled into him, but unless there's some kind of magic involved, that specific amount of blood should have been gone for a long time - so even if the body is new and really only has his own cells in it, I don't think lacking that blood would be the issue. My guess would be that the power was made a part of him, and Azazel only did the bleeding thing to transfer it. Or something.

• I don't get the way souls work in this setting. Behind his 'wall', Sam has memories from the time he (or his soul) was in the cage, and also from when he (or his body) hunted with Samuel and later with Dean, which would imply that both the soul and the brain are conscious minds. Except that the soul is inside the body until death and such, so how exactly does that make sense?
  • Easy. When the soul is inside the body, it and the mind record the same memories. After a person dies, their brain ceases to function, but their soul carries on those memories (which could possibly be what fuels the personal Heavens, but that's Wild Mass Guessing). In Sam's case, his soul and his mind (which had become a functioning organ once again) were on separate planes, each going through their own experiences (torture in Hell and hunting on Earth). When Sam reunited them in 6.22, the memories of his brain as Soulless Sam and the memories of Hell blended. I guess.
    • Why would the memories be recorded in two different ways? As a backup memory card, or something?
      • I suppose the soul needs those memories, because the body doesn't go to the afterlife with you. The whole concept of having a soul contradicts anatomy, but I can think of at least a few other fandoms that work on this logic, so it's not like Supernatural made it up.

• Famine said that Sam isn't 'like the others' because he wouldn't die from drinking too much demon blood. Why? He still has a human body, and there's no reason to believe that he can digest an unlimited amount of fluid.
  • To me, that says that average human would eventually die if they took on the powers of demon blood, but since Azazel's blood was made a part of Sam when he was a baby, he could withstand it. (And remember, the blood gives them superhuman powers, and it has been evidenced in-show that too much power can degrade one's body, like with Lucifer-in-Nick or Levi!Cas.) I don't think that it was meant to be interpreted literally as "he can drink a limitless portion of demon blood nonstop."
    • True. And contradicting. At least one person in that episode died from eating too much, and it had nothing to do with power - he just shoved more food into himself than he could digest (with a toilet brush, so maybe he actually suffocated). Would it be physically possible for the same to happen with Sam?
    • How do you die from drinking too much? You'd just start throwing up. Except that blood coagulates when it's out of the body, which leads to a whole lot of other problems when a human is drinking it. Unless demon blood isn't made of the same stuff.
      • You can actually die from drinking too much water because of osmosis issues before you throw it all up again. Also people die of alcohol poisoning all the time, throwing up or not, so why can't demon blood have equally bad results?

• On a similar note, if Famine managed to drive a whole town full of normal people to kill themselves in weird ways concerning their hunger, and the effect seemed to be stronger with him around (so much that even Cas went into insanity mode), how could Sam, who was basically a drug addict, resist at that point?
  • Heroic willpower? The fact that Dean was standing right there? Who knows.
    • He already drank the blood of two demons before he reached Famine. At that point, all he needed was to overcome the hunger for a few minutes to end the fight.
    • They did say that the demon blood made Sam feel like he was in control. Sam likes being in control. His pride wouldn't allow him to be toyed around by Famine - that, and he wouldn't want to disappoint Dean any more than he already did. Which makes me wonder why he couldn't wipe his mouth with his sleeve on the way there, or something.

• Is there any fandom in which its harder to find het fic about canonically heterosexual characters?
  • Nope. I wouldn't blame the fandom for that, though; there just aren't any shippable female characters around, so the logical conclusion is either Mary Sue fics, or slash. Not to mention that most fanfic writers are girls, so a good chunk of them would've chosen slash over het anyway.
    • Personally, I'm less concerned about the slash and more about the fact that the most popular ship consists of incest. I mean, seriously, it's not like I'm denying the hotness of it, but how the hell does it happen to a fandom?
      • I'm not concerned about the existence of the slash, I'm annoyed by the scarcity of the het. You would think more writers would write the characters in-character than out.
    • "There just aren't any shippable female characters around." Jo, Anna, Sarah, Cassie, Pamela, Lisa, I'm sure there are more.
  • Yes. If you think Supernatural is bad, you should maybe avoid the South Park fandom. Pick any two male characters in SP and I can guarantee you there is fic about them, even if they've never met on the show. Het, what het?

• I don't get what Sam's powers are/were. At first he had those premonitions, which always showed him deaths concerning Azazel's plan and seemed fairly useless for anything but connecting him to the other psychics. Then he used telekinesis once. Then the premonitions spontaneously stopped. Then, at some point before season 4, he suddenly became able to stick people to walls and exorcise demons with his mind - but only by drinking demon blood. Then, when he killed Lilith, his eyes turned black. So...
  • Sam was clearly able to use some of the other psychics' powers, so I would just go with it and assume that any of them could theoretically use any other of the powers on the list - for example, the exorcising thingy could be related to Ava's new power. But then, why is it so specific? Why does he stick people to walls like the demons, but not move objects like Max? Seems pretty useful, and he's canonically capable of doing it.
  • It's already been covered all over the place that Sam most likely didn't need to drink demon blood for his power to work, but he certainly seemed to believe that he did... except he already knew that he had psychic powers of his own, and when the others learned to control them, there was no demon blood involved. Seems kinda dumb of him.

• Why does everyone keep blaming Sam for, uh, stuff? He deserved it in season 5 after going all Dark-Messiah-Wannabe, and at that point it's still reasonable; Dean blames Sam for taking a thousand levels in jerkass and in "Sam, Interrupted" he admits offhand that the apocalypse wasn't his fault, while the strangers who blame him for it don't know the details and he feels too guilty to fill them in. Then he has an epiphany and chooses a fate worse than hell to clean up his own mess, which can be summed up as redeemed. I don't really see how anything his soulless self did could be blamed on him, yet Bobby was obviously mad at him. Then he got his soul back and started hallucinating and whatever, and Dean actually got upset at him over that. I mean, what the hell?
  • Uh... when exactly did Dean blame Sam for hallucinating? He was annoyed because Sam pretended to be alright.
    • In 'The Mentalists', Sam confronted Dean about killing Amy, and Dean yelled at him that he almost got them both killed. That was in the heat of an argument, though - Dean keeps jumping back and forth from annoyed to supportive, and I wouldn't blame him for that because his marbles obviously aren't as well placed as he claimed.
    • As for Bobby, when he said that it really was Sam who did all that shit, it wasn't a long time after he saw the guy try to kill him. Even if he knew that it wasn't Sam's fault, he couldn't exactly act normal around him.

• Why would Leviathans need to eat humans if they existed long before souls (thus: humanity)? Usually I'd say that maybe they didn't, but this time the source is death, who seems pretty reliable in his 'I don't give a crap about you' sort of way.
  • They don't need to eat humans; they just need to eat. They are endlessly hungry, and humans are just the best snack.

• Now that I think about it, the concept of possession lost me at some point along the way. Demons need to possess humans because otherwise they're just a useless bunch of black smoke. Angels do because they fancy themselves to be the good guys so they aren't itching to get anyone who sees them killed. Lucifer and Michael, who fully intend to let half the planet die in the crossfire of their fight, need vessels because... Oh, right, because otherwise, there wouldn't be a place for Sam and Dean in their conflict, but they could have at least dropped half a sentence worth of handwaving. As for the Leviathans... I have no idea. Seriously.
  • Castiel said that his true form can be 'overwhelming' for mortals. Otherwise, no angel ever said that they could appear in their true forms outside of heaven - Zachariah pretty much stated the opposite, ("His vessel? Lucifer needs a meat suit?" "He is an angel. Them's the rules.") not to mention the implications of Angels having a 'One True Vessel'.
    • In Real Life, it's obviously to avoid special effects. The angels inexplicably appear as their vessels in Heaven.
    • There is no in-universe explanation to speak of, so I'm gonna borrow one from countless other fantasy works. Our universe is the physical plane, while Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are spiritual or astral or whatever you call it, and creatures from those dimensions can't properly manifest in our world so they possess people instead. Of course, as fancy as it sounds, Lucifer's cage contradicts that logic: Sam jumped in whole, and then some idiot went and got him out without his soul - so if there was anything to get out in the first place, it means that his physical body existed in a purely spiritual dimension. Maybe it's a one-way thing?
      • This troper's personal fanon is that, being spiritual entities, creatures like demons and angels simply can't be killed unless they're possessing a host because they don't have a physical body to kill. It would explain why Castiel forced a fleeing demon back into its host to kill it in "The Man Who Knew Too Much". Plus, it'd explain why Michael and Lucifer needed the Winchesters for vessels; without bodies, they couldn't really kill each other.
    • They seem to be a bit if not out right arbitrary, certainly a bit random with the Leviathans. Do they possess people or are they just shape shifters? The episode where they impersonate Sam and Dean and several other scenes seems to suggest the latter.

• Iמ "Hello Cruel World" Sam and Bobby both went to hunt leviathans, leaving Sam alone. Sam had a hallucination of Dean coming back and taking him somewhere else, in which they were in the Impala. Then the actual Dean came and took him back. With the Impala. So maybe Sam was the one who drove there and just didn't remember, but he'd probably still need a car to do it. Which he either didn't have, or spontaneously left behind.
  • Usually I'd say it was one of Bobby's spare cars, but then it means they left it behind when Dean took Sam back. Maybe he intended to come back for it later, since Sam was in no condition to be driving. Or maybe the creators didn't think about it.
  • If you look carefully at the scene where Dean arrives at the warehouse you can see a van parked outside with the lights still on. Presumably, that's what Sam arrived in...where he got it from is another question. I'm inclined to believe the previous poster: it was one of Bobby's cars that they left behind because Sam wasn't in a fit state to drive.

• In the very first episode, Dean came to get Sam's help, saying that "Dad hasn't been home for a few days", and Sam argued until he added that he disappeared on a hunting trip. Later on, it's been well established that hunters (or at least the Winchesters) are always on the road without anything like a permanent residence, leading a completely illegal lifestyle at that. What home did Dean refer to, then?
  • He may have been referring to the Motel they were supposed to be meeting up in. As code. As they were in front of Jess. I mean, how would "Dad hasn't called me or visited the motel room we were staying in in a few days" have sounded?

• In "Sam, Interrupted", the schizophrenic woman's death got passed for a suicide. But the doctors were obviously convinced that she was unstable, and she was found with slit wrists - wouldn't they have kept her away from anything sharp?

• When Sam and Dean die in "Dark Side of the Moon," why do they go to Heaven? Dean performs pretty much all of the seven deadly sins every day, and Sam basically became a demon at one point. That plus all of the killing that they do on a regular basis, it just doesn't seem very plausible that they would be allowed into Heaven.
  • Didn't Zachariah pretty much state that the angels allowed them to go to heaven despite everything they've done?
    • The seven deadly sins have a long history, but they weren't even in the bible (there was a list of seven 'sins' in the Hebrew bible, but the only sin that overlaps is pride). Which, in this setting, got a lot of things wrong too. It's hard to tell exactly which rules the angels want people to follow and how much is has to do with the values or Christianity.
    • Anyway, if the afterlife is an either-or kind of thing, then it's pretty ambiguous where the brothers belong. Neither of them are saints, but they both tried to do the right thing, and even Dean, who has been known for beating himself up over everything that ever happened, said that he probably saved enough people to make up for all the shit he's done. So really, I can't quite see why they'd deserve eternal torture - but that's more of a personal opinion, and the real question is why the angels would allow them to go to heaven when they obviously hated them. I'd say they didn't want to do them a favor like Zachariah implied, but to have easy access to their souls.
      • I'm not sure the angels have control over who gets into Heaven. It seems like that'd be God's judgement, so even after God "left the building", the sorting of the souls could have continued "automatically" and been interpreted by Zach and the other angels as an eternal mechanism that God had set up that couldn't be interfered with even after he left. The angels apparently could return Dean to Earth to use as Michael's vessel, but they apparently couldn't send him to hell. Just a theory, I fully admit I could have misinterpreted something, but this is just my reading of it.

• If a devils trap was painted on a ceiling would demons on the next floor be affected by it?
  • Probably not. From what we've seen, those things don't work that way, but it's hard to tell exactly how they do work.
  • Yes, it does. That's how Dean traps the very first Crossroads Demon (under the water tower).

• Why is everything Pagan pretty much Exclusively Evil? I understand demonizing Kali and the other Pagan gods who have a history of being total dicks to humans, but Ganush eating human flesh? Osiris judging humans and sentencing them to death based on their guilt? Would it kill the writers to write in a non-Christian being or worshipper who isn't evil?
  • The Christian things have been just as evil. Hell, Osiris is practically a good guy compared to Micheal. You might as well be asking why the writers aren't putting friendly aliens in 40k.
  • A bit of Fridge Brilliance: Sam and Dean would never have an opportunity to meet a good Pagan entity or worshiper because of the nature of their job. A friendly Pagan deity who looked after people rather than eating them or a good witch or Wiccan who helps people rather than curses them would never warrant their attention in their line of business.
  • Wasn't the Fate from season 6 a Pagan God? Both her and her two sisters seemed to work for God and Heaven after he left. While she's not the nicest of people both of her sisters do their job just fine with no mention of cannibalism or complaining about the apocalypse not happening like she was.
  • The sacrifices and eating of human flesh appear to be the norm for the pagan gods, so I would argue that they're not really evil. They appear that way to us, but to them, eating humans is no different than eating a cheeseburger. Think of Death and his comparison of Dean to a bacterium. Also, if I remember right, all of the pagan gods (Veritas, the Christmas gods, the scarecrow god) come from a time when people willingly participated in human sacrifice in return for good weather, plentiful harvests, etc. and they only take unwilling sacrifices because a lack of worshippers in recent times has forced them to do so. If we are to believe that the human sacrifices are a source of food, it becomes a matter of survival.

• Wait, they finally gave Misha Collins a chance to act out his own crazy self, and they then immediately killed him off? What kind of sense does that make?
  • Don't worry, Wikipedia confirms that he's coming back.

• Dean uttering "Joe the Plumber is a douche" bugs the hell out of me. It's not that I disagree, it's that I don't recall seeing ANYTHING up to that point that would suggest Dean follows politics. At all. And really, what Hunter WOULD, given the relative irrelevance of it? IE, what does it matter if a Democrat or Republican gets elected if Lucifer is gonna rise up and reduce the planet to ash in the end-all of brotherly fights? If someone working on the show just HAS to shoehorn in their opinion like that, they should at least find a way to do it that doesn't involve breaking character...
  • Maybe I'm missing something since I know nothing about American politics, but it didn't seem that out of character to me. First of all, politics aren't relevant for hunters, but they don't become truly important for normal people until there are drastic changes. People get annoyed at politicians anyway. Also, the hunters at least read the paper as part of their job, so even if they only need the local stuff and individual weird incidents, they might as well read the headlines. And in Dean's case, find things to be judgmental about. Seriously, he calls everyone a douche, so why not a politician? (Then again, it obviously was someone trying to write their opinion into the story. I just don't think it was done noticeably enough to break your head over it.)
  • He already demonstrated in "Sin City" that he thinks Dick Cheney is evil.

• I've been wondering this for a while now: It has been established that angelic possession only occurs within bloodlines. This must mean that Nick (Lucifer's backup host) is/was related to Sam and Dean. It seems odd that this is never mentioned. As soon as they learned the rules about angelic possession you'd think they'd look into all of their remaining relatives and see who exactly was being possessed. I'm not sure how or even if this information could have actually been of any consequence, but I think the relation deserved at least a passing mention.
  • I actually had a theory about that a while back; I assume that Lucifer can take anyone as a vessel, regardless of the bloodline, as long as he pumps it full of demon blood, which strengthens the vessel and keeps it from disintegrating. However, it only works for so long, which is why Nick's body was deteriorating throughout the season. Some minor evidence to support this is that when Michael takes Adam as a vessel, he shows no signs of deterioration, despite not being the "true vessel."
    • Hm, I suppose that's possible. It just bothered me that they never bothered to figure out who the heck this guy was, especially if the Winchesters were related to him in some other context besides blood.
    • Any of Azazel's chosen children would have been the vessel if they had won.
    • I disagree. I think it was more or less established that Sam and Dean were meant to battle each other as Lucifer and Michael. I always assumed that, like Dean, Sam would have been resurrected when he died in season 2, Dean just didn't know and couldn't wait. It did take the angels months to revive Dean.

• In "Abandon All Hope" when Bobby was describing Death for the first time, he mentioned that because he's so dangerous and powerful he's kept chained in a box six hundred feet underground, so it was a pretty big deal that Lucifer was raising him. Since then, however, he has appeared several times without much ado being made. Is there a reason that he's able to walk out and about now with no one worrying?
  • He's just that cool. That, and what can they do about it? He's Old, he's powerful enough to create an eclipse out of nowhere, and someday he'll reap God...he's a force of nature, and not an active murderer now that he's off Lucifer's leash, so he's less a threat than a reminder of mortality.

• What exactly does Dean consider to be "working with a demon"? In season six, he got all over Cas' case for working with Crowley. But Cas was doing this for good reasons: 1) He considered going to Dean, but didn't want to disrupt his peaceful family life and 2) he was fighting a war that, if he lost, would result in the Apocalypse picking up where it left off. However, Dean says that Castiel should have come to him first before resorting to a demon like Crowley. But, as I just stated, Cas had very viable motives for not going to Dean. Skip ahead to the start of season seven, when Cas is on his crusade. Who is it that Dean goes to for a spell that will bind Death? Crowley. And why does he do this? Because he has no other choice. Which is exactly what Cas had done. Then skip even further ahead, to The Born-Again Identity, where Castiel takes on Sam's hell memories. Who is it that Dean recruits to keep an eye on Cas (who's only in the situation because Dean didn't want him working with a demon)? A demon. Now, granted, Sam actually calls him out on this, but Dean justifies it as "mutually-assured destruction"...which doesn't make any sense; if Meg doesn't help them, then she won't suffer any consequences. So essentially, Dean is out of options and resorts to a demon. I just don't see how Dean can frown on the idea of working with demons when he's probably done it more than anyone else.
  • Two words (three if you don't count hyphens): Protagonist-Centered Morality.
  • You know, as fashionable as it is these days to pity poor Cass and hate the mean ol' Winchesters for being reluctant to associate demons, his decision not to go to them for help in the first place is making less and less sense to me the more I think about it. The entire reason he's so pro-free will compared to other angels is because he's seen Sam and Dean do the impossible by averting the Apocalypse. Castiel knows that Sam and Dean have previously killed/locked away/defeated multiple entities that they really shouldn't have been able to, including two archangels more powerful than the one he's fighting against. He knows (or thinks, in Sam's case) that they would help him, a close friend, out in a heartbeat - even if he didn't, surely he must think that the rest of Team Free Will would like to know if the Apocalypse might start up again soon and if there's anything they can do to stop it. So instead of temporarily pulling Dean aside to ask for help/advice in dealing with Raphael, or better yet, going to Sam and Bobby so he doesn't have to disrupt Dean's retirement, he decides to go the sensible route and... partners up with Crowley, after he witnessed first-hand what Sam caused by partnering up with Ruby? Sorry, guys, but I'm having a lot of trouble sympathizing with Castiel after he had such a major lapse in judgement. (And he didn't try to make Crowley give back Bobby's soul. At the very least, he should have told Crowley, "Rip up the contract and let Bobby go or I'll smite you." Saving his own skin and staying on the good side of Heaven's "sheriff" must be more important to Crowley than clinging to a grizzled old hunter's soul for ten years.)
    • Alright, I can see what you're saying, and it makes sense, but it still doesn't explain why Dean continues to work with demons like Crowley and Meg. I mean, while I do feel kinda bad for Cas (although I admit he made poor decisions over the course of season six), that's not what I'm scratching my head about.
  • It wasn't that the brothers were upset about Castiel working with Crowley, it was that he was sneaking around and hiding it from them.

• Dean talking about the "natural order" of things in "Of Grave Importance." Really Dean? You've died and come back how many times now? Sam had his soul removed and then physically placed back into his body. Sounds natural to me. I expected some resistance on the Winchesters's part about Bobby remaining on earth as a ghost, but Dean made it seem like he hasn't helped them out at all and that there isn't a glaringly obvious solution (just burn the flask once the whole Leviathans mess is over).
  • Moreover, Dean was deep down hopeful Bobby was still there helping them. Then they find out he is and it's... unnatural.

• Why did Dean did think taking away Lisa and Ben's memories was a good idea? Was it to relieve them of the burden of knowing him, or did he honestly think demons would stop trying to kidnap them just because they couldn't remember? They're still (albeit former) associates of the Winchesters. If they were kidnapped, Dean would still come running to save them. So all he really did was rob them of the small chance they had at being prepared and able to defend themselves.

• So in "Reading Is Fundamental" the leviathan Edgar easily dispatches two angel mooks, firmly establishing leviathans to be the most powerful beings in the setting (barring God, Death etc.)... Except if you think about it, they're really not. Leviathans are basically Nigh Invulnerable shapeshifters that eat people. Angels are nigh invulnerable, super strong, teleporting, face melting, injury-healing, dead reviving, time traveling reality warping demigods. While the leviathans are certainly dangerous, the abilities they've displayed thus far are nowhere near the sheer power the angels have been shown to possess. Yet we're supposed to believe that the leviathans are stronger?
  • The Leviathans may have greater strength in the abilities they share with Angels. Sure, they aren't as versatile. But their immunity to the power of regular Angels and greater physical prowess means that the Angels can't take them on without bringing in artifacts to even things up.
  • Their apparent immunity may stem from the fact that they are older than the angels. I don't remember the exact dialogue, but Death described them as being some of the earliest, if not the very first creations of God, who Himself was concerned with their power.
  • We've seen this kind of thing before with Eve; she was old enough to know how angels derive their power and was able to exploit that knowledge in order to "turn off" Castiel's abilities. It's highly probable that Leviathans (being older than Eve) also possess this knowledge.
  • The Leviathan says "rock beats scissors, leviathan beats angel" Have we seen Leviathan vs demon yet? My point being he might have been literally pointing out that there is some kind of balance. Otherwise what an odd thing to say that was.
    • There was that verbal smackdown between Crowley and Dick Roman. Dick implied that he could easily wipe the floor with Crowley, who didn't exactly deny it. Cue Crowley rushing to help the Winchesters defeat them.
  • Based on what we've actually seen a war between Angels and Leviathans would be rather one sided for the Angels. Sure angels seem to be physically weaker but between borax water balloons being a viable weapon and angels ability to teleport (not being someplace you don't want to be is helpful in a fight. So is being able to appear behind someone whose in the middle of something) I can't see them losing if they choose to fight. Those two got taken out for the same reason Superman gets taken out whenever some loser gets his hands on a kryptonite weapon. When you're used to being completely invincible you lose a lot of the self-preservation instincts that keep the rest of us alive. Had they the slightest clue they, or the prophet was in any danger whatsoever they would have grabbed him and teleported back out.
    • Actually, when Eve blocked Castiel's powers in "Mommy Dearest," he couldn't teleport either, so it's possible that it may not be an option for an angel who is within a Leviathan's proximity.
    • Those two angels had literally just teleported into the room, which means that even if the leviathans can block it it's something they have to actively be trying to do and not some passive ability that automatically hits any angel who comes within a certain distance of the leviathan. That would explain why they didn't just grab Kevin and run, but not how they couldn't just sneak up on a leviathan, lop off his head and be halfway across the country with it before the leviathan realized what was going on.
    • Even if they couldn't teleport I presume run like Hell and fight back are options. They seem to be weak enough that while I wouldn't classify them as harmless Sam and Dean seem to be doing as well in the hand to hand as they do against any non angel entity they've met so far.
• How are Sam and Dean going to kill what God only locked up? I get that they're good, but this is pushing it.
  • By following the "in case of emergency" guide that God left behind for just this scenario. God probably could have killed the Leviathans if he so desired, but he's pretty big on that whole free-will thing, so he most likely didn't think that he should kill them for being what he made them, and hence thought that locking them up would be an adequate solution. Luckily, he thought ahead, and had the Word left on Earth just in case the Leviathans should escape.
• So... Where the HELL were the Campbells during the rest of Sam and Dean's lives? They're established as being a fairly well organized group of hunters, and John Winchester made a pretty solid name for himself, but no Campbell ever even tried to find Mary's widower and children after her suspicious death in a fire? A family member even had her buried, and never thought that he should look in on John, Sam, and Dean, see what they were up to?
  • Azazel had a large portion of Mary's family killed shortly after she died, and the only reason the Season 6 Campbells were so well-organized was because Samuel brought them together. Before then, they were probably off on their own, leading relatively (lol) quiet lives. Some of them may have also been hunters, and therefore could have been able to resist any demons sent after them by Yellow Eyes.