The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess/Headscratchers

• Midna referred to the Sols as the Twili's version of the sun, a source of light and power. The Sols get absorbed by the Master Sword, and never do seem to be removed at any point in time...right up until Midna destroys the mirror, and only way to even get to the Twilight Realm, essentially cutting the Twili off from their "sun!" Way to go, heroes...
  • Note that the glowy power leaves the Master Sword whenever Link exits the Twilight Realm. Presumably they can't go through the mirror, and got left behind when Link left.
    • In the battle against Puppet Zelda, if you stand around without attacking, Midna eventually tells you that the power of the Sols in the Master Sword will allow Link to better defend against the attacks. So while we don't see it, the Master Sword is still infused with light, even outside of the Twilight Realm.
    • That, and when you fight Ganondorf in the last phase, the Master Sword is glowing like Ganondorf's sword. I checked with Rusl's sword, to make sure it wasn't from the lighting. Rusl's sword only reflects the light. The Master Sword also glows when you get the Action Command to lock blades. Also, when you fight shadow beasts with it outside of the Twilight Realm, it faintly glows. (Yes, it is possible to not kill all of the shadow beasts that are supposed to show up before the Palace of Twilight.)
  • Perhaps there were more than just those two?
  • Alternatively, Link returned the power to the Twilight Realm just before that scene opened.
  • Or, perhaps, the Sols didn't infuse all their power to the Master Sword. If they did, I doubt the platforms powered by these same Sols would still be working.
  • Consider that sols, like most of the stuff in there, probably wasn't there when the Twili were banished, and that they are quite powerful magically, barring their inability to traverse the worlds. They probably conjured up new ones.

• Is it just me, or is the whole point left as a Broken Aesop? (At least, the way it was told, what was shown says otherwise.) I understand the whole point is that Dark Is Not Evil, but Midna at the end says the same thing as Zant, before he cursed her by using Lanaryu, right before she shatters the Mirror of Twilight. That bugged me, because she was saying how light and dark don't mix, though she and Link proved otherwise throughout the course of the game. Did I miss something?
  • The Twilight Realm didn't start having problems until Ganondorf, a light being, pervaded their world. So really, Light and Shadow didn't mix after all.
    • Uhm... Ganon(dorf) hasn't been a "Light Being", ever since his dark heart transformed the sacred realm into the dark world. Which was 100-1000 years prior to this game.
      • Irrelevant. Ganondorf is a creature of the "light" side of the mirror. Having a "dark" heart doesn't change where he was born or what form of entity he is.
  • Yeah, that seemed like something of a tacked on sad ending to me as well. One other possible reason is that it provides Nintendo a freebie escape clause in case they never want to mention Twilight again (and, of course, they can still bring it back whenever they want for reasons common to all fiction.)
  • It seemed to be more of the viewpoints between the two. Zant seemed to believe that the peaceful demeanor the world of Twilight had taken on meant that it was weak and thus he set out to conquer both the Light and the Twilight world under Ganondorf's orders. Midna ultimately realized that while Light and Twilight were opposite sides of the same coin and both sides had good and bad people to them, it was simply too dangerous for both if they were allowed to mix (the game showed that the people of both worlds were deformed and hurt from it).
    • Yeah, I gathered it was a combination of the harmful-to-residents-on-opposite-sides thing and Midna possibly being paranoid that, although most of the Twili and Hylians were good people, there was always a small chance that another person like Zant or Ganondorf would come along.

• How, exactly did Ganondorf get the Triforce of Power? The Door of Time was still locked in the game.
  • This troper hasn't played every Zelda game, but apparently, the Triforce transcends time and space. So even though Ganondorf only obtained it in the Adult timeline, since the Triforce transcends time, he has it in every possible split timeline. This is why Link couldn't simply go get the Triforce in the past in Skyward Sword, because he already had it from his time.
  • Resonance. The two timelines parallel one another. The Sacred Realm, as a separate universe, was unaltered by the time travel, so he went in in one timeline, and came out in both. Will of Din. Dark sorcery, probably from his mother(s), who Link never killed in that timeline. Plot hole. Take your pick.
    • I'll take plot hole for $100.
    • I was under the impression that he never actually had the Triforce of Power; rather, he simply had the affinity of the Triforce of Power, plus loads of Badass and Determinator.
  • If we take the game literally, then Din gave it to him For the Lulz.
    • The Goddesses Did It For the Lulz explains quite a few of the bizarre things that happen in Zelda, to be honest.
  • I was under the impression that when Ganondorf stole the Triforce and split it during the events of Ocarina of Time, the Triforce wasn't fused again in the Child Timeline by that time. The Triforce of Power had to go somewhere, and that explains why Link and Zelda both had their Triforces in Twilight Princess. That's only my two cents, though.
  • A combination of Because Destiny Says So and The Only One Allowed to Defeat You. Because Ganondorf must be defeated by a Link and a Zelda working against him, Din intervenes in his execution by giving him the Triforce of Power.
    • This is one of the major reasons I've never interpreted the Word of God as actually referring to a split timeline. That and Occam's Razor.
  • We've seen on several occasions that the Triforce of Courage and Triforce of Wisdom existed separately as physical objects, even going as far as to break the Triforce of Courage into pieces. I just kinda figured that Ganondorf probably looted the corpse of his ancestors or whoever was the last guy to have it and took the solidified Triforce of Power for his own needs.
  • I always assumed this was in the adult timeline (that is to say, the world where Ganondorf was defeated), which would set up the back-story, though this brings it back to the whole split timeline debate (I say Wind Waker represented the child line, because Link left for Termina and Ganondorf couldn't be stopped, but the legend of a hero would still be present since he had been running around that line), which would fix that plot-hole. His victory in the child line is what gets him the Triforce of Power there and in WW, and that solves the problem of him having the Triforce and the backstory of having been imprisoned by the Sages (granted, TP's portrayal could be considered a legend, thus why it didn't match the events of the original).
    • This troper always says it as Child!Oo T -> MM -> TP, Adult!Oo T -> WW/PH/ST. Ganondorf was being executed in TP because Link, having been sent back in time at the end of Oo T, was able to warn the king about his plan before he could carry it out. That would also explain why the sages in TP aren't the same sages from OoT - Saria, Ruto, etc. were never awakened in the child line, so the previous sages (presumably killed by Ganondorf during Oo T) were around to attempt to execute him. Meanwhile, in the Adult branch, Link just vanished from existence, and so he/his descendents weren't there to stop the next invasion of Hyrule. And that's terrible.

• At first, it appeared that the villain of Twilight Princess was Zant, who appeared even more menacing than Majora thanks to his his enigmatically statuesque mask and flowing robes, surrounded by vaguely Cthulhu-like twilight beasts. Portrayed as nearly unstoppable, he repeatedly comes out of nowhere to harass the player and remains just beyond Link's grasp. About half-way through the game, he is stripped of all dignity and reduced to a raving lunatic, and his background is revealed as a simpering hanger-onner to the Twili royalty turned second banana for Ganon. Why did they have to do that to him? He could've been revealed as the Dragon to Ganondorf without making him lose all of his badassness.
  • Seriously, he went from really badass to raving lunatic.
  • Oh, come on. Zant started out as having THE EXACT SAME PERSONALITY AS GANON, not an original character at all, and seeming to be "just another villain". Then, later, he turned into one of the most surprising twists in any Zelda game, no wait, the ONLY surprising twist in any Zelda game, and one of the most exciting bosses ever, what with him spinning frantically around through the whole thing. He even succeeded in being mildly disturbing. This editor will always mandate that Zant's personality change was definitely for the better. I wish they had put him in Brawl.
    • If they'd done that, they'd have to add Vaati, and hence Young Zelda, and hence Baby Mario, and hence... um... Miis.
      • Plus he'd been in one game. Every other character from Brawl has had at least two, even Toon Link.
        • While the point stands, Lucas, Ice Climbers, and Pit are all either only one game or close to it.
  • It seemed to me that Zant suffered from some kind of split personality disorder, and that the raving loony personality was the original Zant, but pushed "over the edge", whereas the badass version seemed to be linked to the helmet (i.e. wearing the helmet forced him to switch to the badass persona), and may have something to do with the deal with Ganondorf, either intentionally or not.
    • On the subject of Chtulhu-like beasts, in the Cutscene where Zant dethrones Zelda, what were the things behind him? Beta Baddies that didn't make it? And why doesn't Midna bat an eyelid when you essentially kill her transformed people and then make portals out of their corpses fifteen times over ?
      • Probably because she thought that they were already lost no matter what: if Link did not fight back, they would have spent their lives in a soulless state of servitude.
      • I thought about that and decided they weren't; a good portion of the monsters that attack you are created beings. (No, no canon evidence, it's just how I reconciled it.)
      • BTW, I think the things behind Zant were Twilight Messengers (the things you kill to make portals).
    • Actually, from what this troper can tell, most of the Twilight Beasts you kill used to be villagers from Kakariko. You'll notice that the missing people never return even after the game ends...
      • What? The numbers don't match up at all for that theory; there are way more Twilight Beasts than missing villagers.
        • The Law of Conservation of Detail. If only a few dozen or hundred villagers "in-game" were taken, this could translate to literally hundreds or even a thousand more in "real" terms. Either that, or Twilight Beasts are created through some sort of Clown Car Grave deal.
      • I thought the things behind Zant were like "Royal" or "Elite" Twilight Beasts. I'm also going to say that every time you defeat Twilight Beasts, they are "cured" and get sent back to the the Twilight Realm through the portal, where they transform into Twilight Beasts again. At least until Link restores the Twilight Realm's twilight or something.
  • Back on subject, YMMV. I loved the sudden shift in Zant's personality, and really wished he wouldn't be Hijacked the way he was. The character was unique -- someone who pretended he was an evil overlord but was really a sick wanna-be who had tons of power. I thought this made him scarier then Ganondorf, as a From Nobody to Nightmare sort of thing.
    • • When you think about Zant, you have to picture a common schoolyard bully. He's only cool or collected when he's firmly in control. Rattle his cage, and his true colors show. Getting back all of the shards of the Mirror and defeating every enemy he sent their way was enough to do just that. In essence, Zant only thought he was cool and acted cool early in the game because he had nothing to fear. Then come along Link and Midna...

• At the end of the Twilight Princess, am I honestly supposed to believe that that was Zant's neck snapping? It sounded like he needed a trip to the chiropractor but not like anything fatal.
  • I saw it as him breaking his neck to kill Ganandorf. Ganondorf tricked him and used him, so he kills himself to kill Ganondorf. Well, however much Ganondorf can be killed.
  • I saw it as Ganondorf being the only thing that kept Zant alive after his defeat. With Ganondorf gone, well...
    • That's my interpretation of it, as well. The neck snapping is simply symbolic of Zant's connection to the living world being cut.
  • I dunno, it really did look like Zant snapped his own neck to me, not it just happening due to Ganondorf dying. It was probably some sort of Take That to Ganondorf; y'know, to avenge being hijacked by him.
  • We don't know if he actually died from that because he hasn't made a reappearance or mention in other games confirming it. We don't know if he even snapped his neck. People's necks make those noises when turned to the side.
  • I didn't think Zant was snapping his neck. I thought he was maybe smiling bitterly at Ganondorf, showing he knew Ganondorf was in trouble but offering no aid, and that as Ganondorf died, he would keep living. Maybe wishful thinking on my part, since I want Zant to show up again.
    • Zant's expression during that scene seems, to me, more like one of slack-jawed disbelief, as though he could not comprehend that his "God" had been slain right in front of him. If you look closely, he even shakes his head slightly, as though thinking "No, This Cannot Be!," just before his tether is cut.
    • I may be remembering this wrong, but the relationship between Zant and Ganondorf is based on a myth. In the myth, I think, the God made a deal with... something, so that if one of them died the other could resurrect them. Since Ganondorf didn't revive Zant straight away, Zant killed himself (again, somehow) so that neither of them would survive.
  • This troper watched that scene with a friend, and we came to the conclusion that Zant killed Ganondorf. The crack was Ganondorf's neck snapping, not Zant's. Because in that one small moment, Zant had more power than the mighty Ganondorf.
  • I just rewatched that scene out of curiosity, and it suddenly occurred to me that Ganondorf could be hallucinating Zant. When Zant seemingly reappears, the color looks different and the glow effects look to be more exaggerated. Ganondorf also seems to be the only one in any way aware of him. I can't think WHY Ganondorf would hallucinate Zant, but hey, at least it's simple. Occam's Razor, right?
  • My two cents. a) It's a situation similar to what happened at the end of Harry Potter. Ganondorf and Zant are tethered to one another. As long as Ganondorf is alive, Zant can't be killed and vice versa. Ganondorf knew this, and was about to gloat when Zant appeared to him in a vision, snapping his own neck out of revenge for his "all-powerful god" using him as a tool. In this explanation, Nintendo wimped out on making Zant's death more obvious (as that would necessitate something a bit more graphic than they wanted). Or b) Ganondorf is starting to cross over into Hyrule's afterlife, when he sees Zant waiting for him. Zant is pissed about the way things turned out, and the neck crack is him loosening up before he opens a can of crazy on Ganondorf's ass in the afterlife.
  • Or c) The fact that Zant was tied to Ganondorf provided an opportunity for Ganondorf to set aside an escape route through Zant. In this way, Zant was tied to Ganondorf was tied to Zant, and both were bound to the Triforce. When Midna killed Zant, and then Link killed Ganondorf before Zant had a chance to recover, they were both drawing power from Ganondorf's Triforce. Zant succumbed first (intentionally or not doesn't matter) and the resulting backlash pushed Ganondorf over the edge.

• In Twilight Princess, Ganondorf broke through the Sages' chains after being stabbed. But why didn't he just do that in the first place? He had the Triforce of Power all along.
  • He only realized that he could still use the Triforce after he got stabbed and the Triforce came into effect. He probably thought that the Triforce was sealed after he lost to the Hero of Time.
    • Wrong Timeline, the Ganondorf in TP was exposed by child Link and never fought the Hero of Time.
  • From what this Troper gathered, in the child/TP timeline, Ganondorf never got to the Triforce, so he was able to be killed. However, he was the destined wielder of the Triforce of Power (kind of like an evil Chosen One), so Din granted him Power when he needed it to live. Cue asskicking.
    • This troper's theory is that the Triforce transcends Time. When Ganondorf got it in Oo T, it crossed the timelines into Twilight Princess.
    • I always thought it happened through a combination of Because Destiny Says So, The Only One Allowed to Defeat You, and Set Right What Once Went Wrong. The Sages can't kill Ganondorf because they aren't meant to kill Ganondorf. His plans coincided with the existence of a Link and a Zelda, therefore it is their destinies to defeat him. However, in this timeline, they just had him arrested and tried for his crimes. The Goddesses did not appreciate their plan being altered, so they gave Ganondorf the piece of the Triforce he was always meant to have (by destiny, not by right), thereby preventing his execution. The Goddesses rewrote destiny and reincarnated Zelda and Link at a time that they would be able to stop Ganondorf when he escaped. Of course, this is 100% pure fanon.

• At the end of the Twilight Princess, Midna says that "light and shadow were not meant to mix" and destroys the twilight mirror. She does this after the Fused Shadows, the most dangerous magic of the Twilight Realm, are kaput. Ganondorf crushed 'em in his hands, so why was keeping the portal open as an option to call for help if needed such a bad thing?
  • People of Twilight apparently can't be touched by actual sunlight without dying horribly -- Midna's a special case because she was basically given Zelda's soul for a little while halfway through the game, and still nearly died before that. Midna was probably protecting her people from the possibility of Hyrule attempting to attack them, when they'd have no way to fight back effectively, since trying to do so would lead to horrible sunlight-ridden death. Also, she's needlessly dramatic.
    • Ooooooooooooookay, let's examine the facts: a) the people of Hyrule are peaceful by nature and unlikely to ever attack. b) the Twilight Mirror is very small, and it would be a simple task to simply break it into chunks if they ever did. c) you do not need to destroy the Twilight Mirror to render it inoperable, breaking it in half and taking the other half with you would suffice. That way you could reassemble it if needed.
      • So Midna breaks the mirror and takes half of it with her. Ignoring the question of how she would get through the mirror while it was broken, especially while carrying half of it (the only reason she could get through the shattered mirror was because it held its shape long enough to continue showing the portal to the Twilight), how is she going to reassemble it when half of the mirror is in a different universe? Moreover, even the Hylians are peaceful, it was still their fault that Ganondorf got through in the first place, since they sent him there. She's the Queen of those people. Midna's probably not going to think, "Well, they gave a madman the power to stage a coup, steal my throne, subjugate my people, and murder countless of their own people, but they've probably learned their lesson!"
        • Did you miss the part where Ganondorf DIED? Now he's DEAD! Because they KILLED him! He is not much of a threat anymore.
        • Also, the Sages cannot really be held fully responsible for flinging Ganondorf into the Twilight Realm. They did it not because they planned to, but because he broke free after they tried to execute him. They had to make their decision to do so very quickly. Remember, their options were limited to "fling Ganondorf into the twilight Realm" or "die just like our friend, thus loosing Ganondorf into our world".
        • Even if Ganondorf died, there's no guarantee that some other madman won't pop up at some point in the future. I mean, there's been a Link for every generation that needed one, there's been a Zelda for every generation that's needed one, it's not impossible that there could be some dark force to pop up every once in a while. And besides, even if it wasn't a malicious attempt to harm the Twilight Realm, the effect still was that the place was almost destroyed.
          • Yes to the possibility of other madmen, but they wouldn't have the Triforce of Power. That means that when the Sages shoved a sword into them, they would die. And stay dead, unlike Ganondorf. And do you really think Ganondorf wouldn't attack the Twilight Realm anyway, even if the Mirror was shattered? If he survived, he's going to be pretty pissed about being stabbed like that, and with the Triforce of Power, he could get into the place anyway. I guarantee it.
            • How do we know Ganondorf CAN'T come back? I mean, the revolving door of reincarnation works for Link and Zelda. Why can't Ganondorf be reincarnated using that? He IS the Chosen of the Triforce of Power, after all.
              • It's tradition, man. Nintendo law (or at least Zelda law) states that while there can be multiple Links and Zeldas, there will always be just ONE Ganondorf.
                • Who is surprisingly good at not dying, no matter what. Betcha he's still alive after all that. In fact, I'm certain he IS still alive, because the original Zelda is after TP and he's in that.
              • HE CAN. IN ONE HUNDRED FREAKIN' YEARS.
              • Four Swords Adventure,had a new Ganondorf being born. He was even born to the Gerudo Tribe. Who almost immediately set out for the Artifact of Doom when he became strong enough. Who's to say Ganondorf wasn't reincarnated at that point in time?
            • Midna isn't breaking the mirror because she's afraid of the portal, she's breaking the mirror because she's afraid of the mirror. The game rubs it in over and over and freaking over that the mirror is concentrated evil that can turn the timidest thing in the world into an ice-wielding demon. That's why Midna makes sure to handle the pieces (instead of Link), and a similar mood is presented with every other mirror piece you collect.
              • They could have had trusted people like Link and Zelda to hold the pieces in case they needed to reassemble it, thus eliminating the problem of Midna being unable to reassemble it within her dimension. Also, this troper agrees with Midna being needlessly dramatic. Zelda just said before that the gods meant for the people to meet once again. Doesn't sealing off the Twilight Realm prove evil's triumph? Midna is afraid of another evil uprising, so she seals off the realm. But, Link defeated the evil. Why can't they just beat it again if it comes back or at least be more careful about pissed off court jesters and such? I know I'm rambling here, but it just seems like a really unnecessary ending there tacked on for bittersweetness. I mean, it's obvious to anyone what's going on with Link and Midna's relationship. But they had to seal up THAT plothole, so that's how they dealt with that so we can go back to loving the official couple of Link and Zelda who have absolutely no chemistry together at all.
                • Is Link/Zelda the official couple of TP? I kind of thought there was another girl roughly his age with whom he has a closer connection...
              • Midna/Link was completely one-sided, not to mention that Nintendo doesn't even seem to recognize Link/Zelda as an official couple. I don't think shipping had anything to do with the breaking of the mirror.
                • Didn't seem one-sided to this troper. Both Link and Midna warm to each other considerably during/after the Midna's Lament chapter; Midna does a lot of flirting with Link in the short time after the curse is broken; and I dare you to watch the scene after the final swordfight (when Link runs to Midna) without getting SOME subtext out of it.
                  • Just because he runs to her because he thought she died and is glad that she's okay, doesn't mean that he's got feelings for her. I never said Link doesn't care for Midna at all, just not in a romantic manner.
                  • Going back on track -- if I were the Twilight Princess, I wouldn't think "hey, we already killed the bad guys once, we can totally do that once again!". I would think "what if this happens again and this time I can't stop them? What if even more people die?". And "they sealed the bad guy in my realm to save themselves" doesn't change the fact that they sealed the bad guy in my realm, so if I could in any way stop this from happening ever again I wouldn't argue. And say that I (speaking as Midna) do break the mirror and give the pieces to Zelda and Link -- yes, they are people I can trust. Are the people they're going to give the shards to when they die people I can actually trust with that power? What if somebody steals them? I can't risk the life of my realm just because I want to say hi every once in a while. Besides, she might be able to move back and forth through the realms without the mirror -- see the sentence underneath.
  • Zant and his things were able to move back and forth through the realms without using the mirror, right? Midna said "See you later", right? So she'll see Link later, she just destroyed the mirror because she could, proving herself to be the "true ruler of twilight".

• At the end of Twilight Princess, after Midna leaves, how did Link and Zelda get out of the Desert without being able to warp? I mean, sure, they could have taken the teleport in the Bonus Dungeon, but how could they have exited the intervening Boss Room?
  • Maybe Zelda thought ahead and brought along some rock climbing/grappling equipment. She is more or less the embodiment of wisdom in human form, after all.
    • They didn't. They both died of heat stroke shortly thereafter.
  • They probably hitched a ride with a giant bird. (Not the one from earlier in the game, but one of the ones that shows up once every second or third game).
  • Zelda pulled out the Ocarina of Time and played the Minuet of the Forest, taking Link back to his home and bringing her to within a five minute walk of Hyrule Castle.
    • OoT (not to mention the smash brothers series) showed us that Zelda is perfectly capable of teleportation without needing any kind of portal or ocarina. Link may not be able to warp without help, but Zelda sure as hell can.
      • Farore's Wind, then?
  • I was considering asking about the same thing. I forgot about the warp (which is better than nothing, if it gets you out of the desert), but I figured they could drop to the floor, take the, what, half a heart of damage, then head roughly south through the rooms until they're out. Then again, the Sages were still hanging around, maybe they could've done something, and we saw Lanayru take Midna and Link from the spirit spring to Hyrule Field, so maybe one or more acted outside their particular province to teleport them? I don't know.

• What in the wide world of wrestling was up with the Twilight Princess' ending!? I mean, seriously:
  • Hyrule Castle explodes, spraying rubble and shrapnel all over the place, Telma's tavern seems to be doing just fine (it's underground, and all we see of Hyrule Castle Town).
    • Not true. We also see the public dancing around the fountain.
  • Ganondorf destroys the Fused Shadows. Seriously. So, the Three Goddesses, creators of the entire universe, have to go through all the trouble of creating a parallel universe for banishing the Interlopers to, splitting the Fused Shadows into four pieces and dumping them somewhere (Midna's helmet may have even been sent to the Twilight Realm with the original Interlopers!), creating four magical spirits to guard them (or at least three of them), but they can't destroy the things. If the Three Goddesses couldn't be bothered to do it, couldn't any random Triforce wielder have just obliterated them?
    • Ganondorf didn't destroy it, it was just separated into more pieces. Piecing it together would make it fine again.
    • Neglectful Precursors. Seriously, if they wanted to stop Ganon, they would have just killed him rather than flood the world in Wind Waker. Alternatively, maybe divine powers can only be used to create, not destroy.
    • I think it's just that TP Ganondorf is an utter badass and just that much stronger than everything else around -- Zelda, Sages, Light Spirits... It is called the Triforce of Power, after all, and I doubt the Triforce is an inferior artifact to the Fused Shadows. (Because, as I recall it, the Goddesses aren't involved; it was the Light Spirits dealing with the Fused Shadows all along, and they're no deities.)
  • Like Evil Rocks said at the top. Oh, and on top of that, the Fused Shadows are just left lying on the ground in the middle of Hyrule Field, so if they ARE still dangerous, then WTF!?
  • Once Ganondorf has been stuck, Zant then kills him/dies/has very poor ergonomics?
    • It's supposed to be symbolic. Zant will be resurrected eternally for as long as Ganondorf survives. Ganondorf dies, so we get a shot of Zant's neck snapping to show that he is truly dead. Unfortunately, they botched the actual look of the snap and it just looks like he's turning his head ever so slightly to the side.
    • This troper thought it was along the lines of "You betrayed me, Ganondorf! And you were foolish enough to maintain my connection to you while you were at your weakest. It may kill me, but you shall die!"
  • After dueling him into the ground, Zelda and Link shishkabob Ganondorf with the Master Sword, causing Ganondorf to… Stand there yammering at them with the Master Sword stuck through him? The scene fades out with a, um, staring contest.
    • Not to mention Ganondorf's incredibly WEIRD stabbing face, which made this troper's prime example for {Narm}. He suggests adding it as a picture to the article, I mean, he looked like a frog with jaw cramps! Or is that PAL only ?
    • This troper took it to mean he died standing up, with his eyes open. Because Ganondorf is just too damn Badass to die falling to the ground.
    • Maybe he turned to stone, like in Wind Waker.
  • We finally see the Master Sword at rest in Ganondorf's tomb, rammed through his sodden body into the sla… Er, wait. The Master Sword is happily at rest in its forest pedestal. Ganondorf is nowhere to be seen. I find this last point especially grating due to the fact that the entire motivation of the game was a botched attempt to take care of Ganondorf for good.
    • Why would they leave the Master Sword stuck in him? There's only two possible ways things could've ended, after all. On one hand, the Master Sword really did finally kill him, so leaving it impaled in his chest would have served no further purpose. On the other hand, this is just a temporary death, in which case, leaving the sword stuck in his chest would just be depriving a future Hero of the only weapon that has a more-than-remote chance of even hurting the guy. As for why Ganondorf was nowhere to be seen... It's pretty much a given that he's going to come back at some point, so the only really appearance he could make in the ending is as a Sequel Hook sort of thing, doing his trademark Evil Laugh. Not a good sense of closure to leave the game on.
      • As long as the Master Sword is lodged within him, he's sealed, and can't even send out his mind like he does when he's put in the Sacred Realm, and he can't reincarnate. The only way for him to return at this point is to remove the sword. Barring a New Evil stronger than Ganondorf -- which I doubt, not even Vaati counted as that -- no Link would be dumb enough to pull the sword knowing it would unleash the King of Evil. Besides, both G-dorf and Master Sword are at the bottom of the bloody ocean, with the magic keeping it all secure and teleportable gone. Kinda hard to get to, even if you knew where it was -- and Link's not telling.
        • Well, you have to consider that while no Link would be stupid enough to pull the sword out of Ganondorf, any bad guy with a taste for releasing sealed evils would. And then they'd be able to actively keep the Master Sword away from the next Link, who would probably get curbstomped. It may well be a better idea to pull it out and put it somewhere safe for the next time.
          • I thought that nobody but Link can draw the Master Sword from its resting place.
        • That sounds like the setup for Okami -- which would explain why it would be a bad idea... Perhaps Link was so Genre Blind that his blindness wrapped around to Dangerously Genre Savvy?
      • True enough, but that's Wind Waker, not Twilight Princess. Outside of that, where in canon does it say anything along those lines? For all we know, the Master Sword just drives Ganondorf's spirit out of his body, and he's free to inhabit another body if he can find one, or something equally odd. Nintendo's been pretty vague when it comes to the power of the Master Sword, and even more vague about the extent of Ganondorf's power.
        • Its established in the games that the abilities of the Master Sword aren't a constant. It's increased in power during games, like in Link to the Past, and gone down and needed to be recharged, like in Wind Waker or the Oracles. Given that it's gone way up and way down as is in terms of damage, who's to say its magical effects don't vary just as much?
          • Which just further reinforces the point that it would be unwise to leave the Master Sword stuck in G-dorf's body, since the sword's power varies so much that it's impossible to know if the bloody seal is going to hold in the first place. Maybe it will, maybe it won't, but either way, it's too much of a risk to leave the good guys' most powerful weapon anywhere that Ganon could get ahold of it. Not to mention that, to my knowledge, the sword by itself has only been used as a seal once, that being in Wind Waker. In all other cases, Link's had either the Sages, the Silver/Light Arrows, the other two Triforce pieces, or some combination of all three to help him out.
            • It's stated that no evil can touch the Master Sword, so Ganondorf would not be able to do anything bad to it. He probably could force a random peasant into throwing it into Death Mountain's volcano, however...
    • Master Sword aside, what exactly happened to Ganondorf?
      • They buried him?

• On the subject of TP, what were the Plot Coupons in Twilight Princess doing where they were? The fused shadows' shards almost make sense if you imagine that the Light Spirits were guarding them for the last few millennia until they were beaten by Zant's minions, their defeat causing the Fused Shadows to “awaken” and start corrupting their resting places (although these resting places are never seen, unless they're the boss chambers). The Mirror Shards, on the other hand, make no real sense at all. After Zant shatters it, he apparently dumps one of them in some random snow, where a yeti happens to stumble on it. The next one they somehow manage to send back in time, along with a bunch of robot spiders. Finally, the last one is given to a dragon that – when confronted – decides to fight Link rather than just flying away.
  • Why doesn't Zant just hold on to the Fused Shadows to keep them safe, if he can't just use them himself?
  • Why would a dragon with immense power run away from some Peter Pan look-alike with no way of knowing how dangerous Link really was?
    • Zant does hold on to them. Pretty much the entire reason you go after Zant in the first place is to recover the Fused Shadows from him. Notice that Midna only uses the Fused Shadows after you hand Zant his kooky ass back to him.
  • I'd say it was a backup plan for the goddesses, like how the Triforce split up in OOT. That way, it is difficult but not impossible to rejoin the pieces. The pieces were probably magically teleported as soon as Zant broke them.

• In Twilight Princess, why is everyone in Kakariko so fussed about Colin's health when there are at least three substances with healing properties right there in the village? It's not normal Gameplay and Story Segregation, because Beth even says she mixed two of the three together (water from the spirit spring and water from the hot spring) to make medicine for him.
  • I'd imagine it's a weak immune system or something chronic that they're worried about. The springs may alleviate the immediate threats and symptoms, but the underlying problem (whatever it may be) is still there -- there's a treatment, but not a cure.
    • Plus, the boy just fell into a dead faint right before their eyes, after he just enured a traumatic experience of being kidnapped and lashed onto a pole by the Bokoblin King, and he was only in that predictament because he pushed Beth out of the way. That's way too much physical/emotional trauma for a child like Colin, so naturally they're worried and doing everything they can to help him.

• So why were the kids and Ilia kidnapped from Ordon anyway?
  • Heroic motivation?
    • So the kidnappers weren't really evil, they were just kind enough to give the hero an excuse to get his little adventure started?
    • Well, King Bulbin isn't in particular, anyway.
  • To force the villagers to surrender and give them whatever they wanted. There would be no rebellion if the villagers feared for their children.
  • Maybe the kidnappers wanted to see if Hyrulians could become shadow creatures, too. If it did work, a bunch of child-sized shadow creatures would be easier to control.
  • The bulblins were sent as a vanguard to open the portal which would allow Twilight Beasts to attack the last spirit spring, and they decided while they were there to kidnap a few defenseless people for fun. When this was found out, they were forced to abandon their captives and return to their duties (though not before Ilia was traumatised enough to develop amnesia).
  • After sucessfully sacking the village, the Bulblins thought they would celebrate with a victory feast. Unfortunately for them, Link rescued the children before the Bulblins' errand-boy had got back from the grocery store with spices.

• In Twilight Princess, how did Link know to strike the side of the Master Sword's pedestal with its blade? What would happen if he did that in the present? What if the Hero of Time had done that? How many other hidden functions does the thing have?
  • The idea was subtly implanted into his mind by the Master Sword? It wouldn't be the first magic item to do something like that.
  • It might not have done anything. If the sword could plant the idea in his mind, it might also be able to affect what commands it gives to the Temple of Time when the conditions to make those commands is active.
    • "Strike the side" ?? This troper saw Link clearly jam the sword into the pedestal then yank it back out, complete with the music from when you did that in Oo T.
      • Ah, this video confirms what you said, so I guess my memory was faulty. The video also shows the pedestal strike doing different things in the present (making a statue vanish) and the past (making the ethereal stairway appear,) so I guess the above suggestion about variable commands is correct.
  • There's always the reincarnation thing. If Link is a reincarnation of Orcarina Of Time's Link, then maybe it was a stray memory.
  • Link isn't stupid. It's pretty obvious that this is the same pedestal he got the sword from in the first place. Someone who is as used to experimenting with items as he is would naturally wonder what would happen if the room was restored to its proper formation.

• How do chained locks in front of a door that opens upward or by sliding to the side lock it?
  • Magic.
  • I'm not going to try and exactly understand what causes it, but perhaps the locking mechanisim is in some sort of grooved notches in the side of the door; I mean, the chains seem pretty taut when you unlock doors. Maybe when you release them, they loosen up and fall free, allowing the door to move/slide freely.

• In Twilight Princess, when you use the Iron Boots to walk on magnetic walls and ceilings, why does Link's hat still flop towards his back, and not toward whatever direction is down?
  • Spiral energy (not really). It's possible that his hair is long enough to hold the back of this hat up, but not long enough to bend opposite the direction it normally does when bound by his hat. That, or the programmers just set it so that his personal gravity was reversed, but thought that wouldn't be "plausible" enough.
  • For that matter, why doesn't his hat fall off? Or the bottom of his tunic flip 'up'. Hell, since Link has no trouble unsheathing his sword at a moment's notice, this troper doubts very much that he fastens it in its scabbard in any way. Imagine the ignominy of being the person who loses the Master Sword in a pit of lava. Just take a deep breath and remember Mystery Science Theater 3000.
    • That bugged me at first, but the longer I look at his hat, the more it looks like the tip is metal, which would be pulled toward the magnet. I never noticed the tunic, but perhaps it's woven into the chainmail, also pulled by the magnet.
    • Whoever you are, that's absolutely brilliant, I'm completely at ease now. I award you the Fan Wank TV Tropes Made of Win Archive.
  • Related: Link's sword blade is made of metal, and probably >97% iron. Why, then, is it not attracted to the magnetic surfaces?
    • Magic. The magic inherent to either the sword or the Triforce of Courage.
    • Mythril-plated aluminum isn't ferromagnetic.
    • Okay, it says that the Ordon sword is made with goat horns, and the master sword is magic. So there.

• Why do Ordon goats have circular horns?
  • Why not? It's a fictional breed of goat. They can have whatever kind of horns the developers want.
  • At birth, they have two horns, which grow toward each other. When the ends meet, they intertwine to give the illusion of one circular horn. This is just bullshit I made up, but it makes enough sense that I can stop caring, myself.
  • Maybe the farmers do it, by piercing a part of their musk-ox like horn and using a series of increasingly large frames and possibly periodic soaking in keratin softeners to sell the horns and skulls for incredibly high prices once the goats die or are slaughtered?
    • That's an incredibly pessimistic and cruel view... kudos. But it's not likely. The Light Spirit, Ordona, is a wolf with the horns (horn?) of an Ordon goat... made of light. It's likely what the third person said.
      • I saw Ordona as being a goat, period.

• In Twilight Princess, how could the Sages have known that the Twilight Mirror Shard was still in the Temple of Time? Link goes back in time to retrieve the Shard, so for all the intervening years between Link taking the Shard and Link stepping back out of the Time Door, the shard is missing from existence altogether. I guess it would have been weird if the Sages told Link "one... was in a forest temple, buuut it vanished years and years ago. But hey, maybe you were the one to take it, which would be good... Time travel is involved, okay." But they seemed so confident that it was still in the grove.
  • Because Zant presumably sent it there. Zant didn't pop up until around the point that the Twilight started flooding the Light. Meaning that the shard was sent back in time. Meaning that, while the shard has been in the past for centuries, it's only been there for centuries for the last few weeks. Long story short, Timey-Wimey Ball.
  • As speculated above, Zant probably didn't put the shards where they are on purpose, but instead the shards (or some enchantment meant to protect them) teleported themselves there. The malice impregnated into the shards from their use as in one or more genocides are probably what corrupted the Temple of Time and filled it with/lured nearby monsters.
  • My thought is that maybe the Temple of Time still exists in the present. You just can't access it in the present because the entrance is blocked. Alternatively, the entire Temple of Time is a hallucination that results in the attraction of a spider that happens to have the mirror shard?

• Here's one. In Twilight Princess, the (creepy) mail guy will hunt you down and give you your mail, crying, "HEY, LINK!" (Or whatever you named him.) Okay, so this is after you gain the ability to freely turn to and from wolf form. When you go into, say, Castle Town, as a wolf, how in the hell does he know it's you? Does he just scream out "HEY, LINK!" to everyone who comes along, regardless if it's human, hoping it's the right person? I mean, even if he learned it was you, how did he know the first time? Eh. . . I dunno. That's my Fridge Logic moment for that game.
  • The mental image of the Postman running around calling Link's name to every human and non-human he sees is utterly priceless.
  • He has super memory and remembers what you look like from a mile away.
  • Oh God, I can't breathe.
  • Some people guess that he's a mouthpiece of Farore -- it explains why he can see the Twilight when others can't, can recognize Link no matter what form he's in, and is able to get himself anywhere, even the Cave of Ordeals.

• Why is Midna wearing her Fused Shadow Piece on her head? That makes no sense! It's a) heavy, b) covers one of her eyes (and therefore makes her unable to correctly tell the difference between near and far) c) is like presenting it to the enemy on a silver tablet. Come on, she put away the other three shards too, why was she so obsessed with wearing this one piece on her head?! Was she so fascinated with the fashionable design or something?
  • Do you see any pockets on that outfit of hers? Maybe she needs the power from that one on hand to be able to use subspace pockets to hold the rest.
  • Alternatively, she needs the power from that one on hand to be able to defend herself in emergencies, as she doesn't want to be caught off-guard.
  • Because a magical artifact that powerful might not actually weigh all that much despite it looking like it was made from concrete?
  • When I saw the completed Shadows in the inventory screen, I thought it looked exactly like a cuirass, but since Midna was transformed into an imp, she wore it on her head instead of her torso.
  • It's definitely a helmet. When Midna transforms into the glowy-spider-thing, the Fused Shadow becomes her head. As for why she's wearing it, there's a WMG (originally used to link the Twili with Majora's Mask) that masks are important to Twili culture. The Shadow Beasts, unused Twilight Assassins (the things flanking Zant when he attacks the throne room), and Zant himself all have coverings over their faces, and the Fused Shadow is a helmet. Also, after you pick up the Ordon Sword and Shield, Midna is under the impression that the shield is meant to be worn over the face. With such a prevalence of masks/helmets, it's possible that Midna felt uncomfortable leaving her face uncovered.
  • When the pieces are left on their own, they float. She could easily have put it on her head, and it just kind of stuck there because of how big her head is. Her head was probably the easiest place possible for her to put it.

• It it just me, or is the presence of a prison where the Spirit Temple used to be a little more than disconcerting? Not only a prision, but a Hylian prison built OVER the Spirit Temple -- the Gerudo architecture can still be seen in many places, but the 'arena' and the main foyer are obviously Hylian construction. Pointing out the absence of the Gerudo... and the fact that the temple is *filled* with bones... yeeiigh. If you fit this fact in with the 'child timeline', it makes it look like that when Zelda/Link got Ganondorf apprehended before he got to cause trouble, the King of Hyrule went after ALL the Gerudo... and had them imprisoned? Executed? Fed to the enormous dragon whose skeleton is still at the bottom of the arena pit? There are a lot of scary implications... no wonder Ganondorf is completely crazy in Twilight Princess. The whole being-executed-before-committing-the-crime thing aside, he comes back and sees THE GENOCIDE OF HIS ENTIRE PEOPLE. Yeah, that merits a little more than insanity.
  • In Wind Waker, on the other hand, we have Forsaken Fortress in the place where the Gerudo Fortress probably used to be... and it's gotta have that name (forsaken) for some reason. And the Spirit Temple was replaced by the Fairy Queen's Fountain, leaving no sign of its Gerudo-origins whatsoever, except the shape of the islands (Just the same as Arbiter's grounds, the Fairy Queen resides in the room beneath where the Twilight Mirror would be). So, let's just say, the goddesses and Hylians probably really, really hated the Gerudo for what Ganondorf did to them. So they killed them and used their temple as a prison in one timeline and gave it to the great fairies in the other. Poor Gerudo...
  • Plus, Ganondorf's Motive Rant in Wind Waker implies that his entire motivation for conquering Hyrule was so that the Gerudo wouldn't have to live in a friggin' desert and steal stuff to survive. I mean, they probably had to dive off a cliff to get water, then swim all the way to Lake Hylia and hike back to the desert. Granted, the distance between Lake Hylia and the Gerudo Desert isn't very far in OoT (which I'm basing this "how the hell do the Gerudos get anything to drink" query on), but still, having to jump off a cliff to get water, while amusing to envision, can't really be good for one's health... Anyways, imagine what Ganondorf must have been thinking when he realized that the people of Hyrule killed off the entire Gerudo race because he tried to take over their kingdom. No wonder he wanted to crush it (in TP, he worked with Zant to suck Hyrule into the Twilight Realm, which as mentioned earlier on the page, was hugely damaging to the Hylian people; in WW's prologue, it's implied that Ganon practically burned Hyrule to the ground before the goddesses flooded it. So, yeah... he must have been seriously pissed off).
  • As OOT proved, wasn't genocide the sort of crap that lead to the Sheikah constructing the frigging Shadow Temple?

• • • And while we're on the topic of weird things being built in weird places, I draw your attention to the Zora grave in Kakariko village. Where is it located? In the back of the graveyard. Specifically, on the ledge at the far end, with some seriously spooky writing on it, and dead trees surrounding it. What connects to the graveyard? The well. Why is the sacred resting place of the Zora the Shadow Temple?
      • The Kakariko Village of TP is differ ant than the village of OOT. The Hidden Village is clearly the remains of the OOT Kakariko (this is supported by a sign in the village reading "Welcome to Old Kakarico in Hylian). Thus, the Zora grave has nothing to do with the Shadow Temple, as it is in a completely different place.

• How did a Piece of the Mirror of Twilight end up in the Temple of Time? I mean, you had to move the Master Sword to get in, so how did it get there? Ganon most certainly didn't know how to get in and out of the sacred realm because in THIS timeline he's never been there! So how did Zant put the piece there?
  • It's suspected in an earlier IJBM that the shard teleported itself there when Zant broke the mirror.

• Not plot related. Why did Nintendo have to flip the entire game world for the Wii? I know their reasoning is because Link used to be left handed and they needed it to sync up with wiimote movements. But why not just flip the character models and leave the map as is? The only thing it really affects is sword combat, and it is REALLY weird seeing the sun rise in the west, and having major map points swapped over...
  • They'd already gotten pretty far along in development on the GCN version- flipping just the characters would force them to change how he interacts with doors and such, and maybe it would require debugging a lot of the interactions with stuff...
  • I don't get why they had to flip the game at all. All the control scheme has done is substituted flicking the remote for a button press; the swordplay doesn't sync up any more if you and he have the same dominant hand.
    • This lefty can attest; it plays fine even if his sword is in the opposite hand to your wiimote.
  • To try and fool people into thinking the swordplay controls amount to more than faux-button Waggle.
  • Nintendo was probably trying to stem the "I can't play this left handed!" complaints before they even started. Didn't exactly work, but they tried.

• How is Stallord able to roar without lungs or vocal chords?
  • Obviously, it's just the wind passing through the holes in his skull like the Howling Stones. Changes in pitch and intensity are caused by the skull moving around, producing a sound not unlike a sustained roar.
  • Zant did it.
  • Further, where is his fire coming from?
  • See above.

• When Midna uses the Fused Shadow to turn into the big, pulsing, Twilit spider-squid monster with the glowing spear, she has enough power to shatter the impenetrable magic barrier around Hyrule Castle. If she's that powerful, wouldn't it have been easy to just level the entire castle rather than Link having to go through all that crap to get to Ganondorf?
  • A. You think that really would've done anything? Considering Midna hit Ganondorf point blank with all her power, and still lost, probably not. B. Doing that would have pretty much killed any chance of helping Zelda, don't you think?
  • Point taken, but the fact remains that Super Duper Midna could have smashed her way through the castle to get to Ganondorf, thus saving Link all the trouble of slaying monsters and collecting keys. In fact, she could have just killed the enemies for him with no effort, again saving him a lot of time and trouble. In the scene where she kills Zant, she's shown as being extremely powerful even without going through the whole transformation thing. And this is Zant she's killing. He's not exactly a pushover. Hell, she could have just teleported herself and Link directly to the throne room, since it's a pretty good guess that that's where Ganondorf would be. She's POWERFULLY MAGIC, for crying out loud, and she barely uses it even when it might be useful. And yes, I am aware that there would be no final dungeon if she did that. I'm just saying is all.
    • This troper always interpreted the end of that cutscene (the part where Midna wakes up in Link's arms) as meaning that breaking the barrier took so much power that the Fused Shadows had to recharge afterward, or something along those lines.
    • If she just started smashing through the castle to provide Link with a shortcut, she might have accidentally knocked down something important (like a load-bearing column or arch) and cause the whole castle to topple down, killing Link and Zelda.
  • Ganondorf is seated in a throne room looking out through an enormous open balcony at top of the castle's highest tower; she wouldn't even have to smash through anything, just climb up and deposit Link there.
  • I figured that when she used all that power to break through the barrier, it was so strong that her body couldn't handle it any more, so she reverted, and needed substantial time to rest up so she could do it again.

• There's a temple at the bottom of Lake Hylia, the endpoint of the water that flows through Hyrule, referred to as Lakebed Temple. To enter it, you have to dive deep into the lake (once it's been refilled). There are large air pockets inside, but ultimately the entire temple is underwater. To reach the boss, you wear iron boots and dive for at least twenty seconds from the central (and not near the top) room of the temple. Yet, when you defeat the boss, it accidentally rams into the wall near the bottom of its massive chamber... causing the entirety of water to leak out. Basically, where did all that water go? Water simply doesn't leak unless there's air below its position! Is Lake Hylia, and the rest of Hyrule, positioned in a small valley atop a mountain or something?
  • I really don't want to use the A Wizard Did It excuse... but, oh what the hell; A Wizard Did It! (Actually, this is one of the most glaring and most IJBM moment of Twilight Princess for me! Seriously it really bugs me that the entire huge-ass, water filled room drains all of its water... INTO water! If anything, that crack would have flooded the water temple...)
    • Perhaps the temple was pressurized? I'm grasping at straws here, but it may explain how a temple which is entirely underwater has any places which aren't covered in water. Thus, when the wall broke, the pressure (somehow) pushed all the water out as the temple equalized.
  • OR Hyrule follows the Hollow Earth design, all the water escaping into a cavern even deeper beneath the temple.
    • Hyrule is set in the most recent Dwarf Fortress build?
  • I thought it looked like the boss sucked up all the water... somehow... but I might have seen wrong.

• When people say that the plot was "Hijacked by Ganon" to the point that there's a damned TROPE named after it. Ganon DROVE the plot. He caused the "main" bad guy Zant, actually The Dragon, to do everything he did. Ganon even GAVE the man his power. In reality, It's the exact same situation as Palpatine and Vader from Star Wars, the only difference is that we knew Palpatine was there. Are people that pissed off that it wasn't made obvious that Ganondorf was there? I thought it was an excellent twist, and that the game wouldn't be the same without him. I honestly couldn't imagine how much worse this game would be if it was just an attempt to show off a fancy new Big Bad, with no connection or meaning in common with the rest of the series.
  • We did not know he drove the plot. He just showed up half way through. I would have called it a retcon of Zant's origin, but it happened in game. It made me feel that Nintendo was made physically ill by the thought of a Zelda game w/o Ganon.
    • You might want to rethink that statement.
  • Whats this "connection" business? Nintendo themselves stated that each game is separate, having no "connection" to any other game.
    • Word of God also states that they're all connected, and there's a big master timeline that they're not showing us. Flip-Flop of God, due to different individual Gods disagreeing.
  • Palpatine's appearance didn't cause all the awesome to be spontaneously sucked out of Vader, who exemplified Evil Is Cool from beginning to end (well, except the prequels :-p.) The same can not be said for Ganondorf and Zant.
  • User:Deuxhero: As the YKTTW creator, it was primarily a filler title, but respondents backed its use. I was going to name it Hijacked By Wily, but "Wily" didn't sound One Mario Limit enough.

• So you can't transform in front of people, but animals are okay? Wouldn't they be just as freaked out to see a Ordonian transforming into a wolf with an imp jumping onto his back?
  • On a related note, does nobody notices Link's transformations just as long as he's not directly in front of them? Nobody notices Link suddenly disappearing and a wolf suddenly appearing?
    • Why would the animals care? And yeah, the second thing's a bit weird.
    • Well, there's been evidence that some of the dark creatures can teleport... who says that Link couldn't have just run off and this dark wolf creature teleports in to start havoc immediatly afterwards? (Of course, depending on how often you transform like that, this argument gets streched thinner and thinner...)
  • Apparently, you smell the same as a wolf and as a human, and animals use scent for identification a lot more than humans do. But then, why you can't demonstrate that you, that nice guy whom they've known all their lives (in the case of the Ordon children and Ilia), all your life (in the case of the Ordon adults), or at some point after the adventure began, are the same as the wolf who mysteriously doesn't hurt them, just by changing, then changing back, is, in-universe, a mystery. Of course, the more obvious reason is... can you imagine having to program in the Event Flags that keep track of who's seen you do that, and when? Like, maybe it'd alleviate the fears of those who know you, but it'd mean not so much to the random stranger who doesn't.
    • On that subject, even replaying the game, I half expected Link to (silently, or during a momentary camera blackout), tell Rusl something like "Oh, well... I was kind of turned into a wolf by the dark stuff that blocked the country to the north, and needed to borrow a sword and shield, and since you didn't need these until Hyrule Castle was opened..." in response to the pre-scripted, unavoidable lamentation that a dark monster stole the sword and shield that Link just brought back.

• If the Iron Boots are so heavy that even Gorons have trouble moving someone who wears them, then how is Link, a Hylian, able to push other Gorons while wearing them?
  • Leverage. Wrestling, even sumo wrestling, is about more than sheer weight and strength. Weight certainly plays a part, which is why you need the boots, but I know from experience that a smaller person can win such a match if they get leverage on their opponent. Plus, Link is shown right off to be the kind of guy that can stop a galloping goat with his bare hands.
  • Maybe the Hero's Clothes had a free pair of Power Bracelets included.

• Where's the King? Where's the Queen? If she's the ruler, how come she's Princess Zelda and not Queen Zelda? So Hyrule's a Principality now?
  • Which brings me onto the issue of the Throne Room. It's a the top of a very insanely large tower of a very insanely large castle. Throne rooms are used for official ceremonies, granting audiences, receiving homages, granting awards, etc. So, a visiting dignitary has to climb that freaking tower to get to the Throne Room? Zelda's not very sociable, is she?
    • Consider that Ganondorf had already taken over the castle by that time. He could have used his magic to change around the castle's architecture specifically to make it harder for Link to progress.
  • This is what bugs me about most Zelda games. Maybe it's because if they ever introduced a king, everyone would expect him to say "Mah boi" all the time, I don't know. Similarly, I'm convinced that the 80's Zelda cartoon and the CD-I games are why Nintendo won't let Link speak anymore.
    • I would like to go on record as stating that it seriously bugs me that that argument is so commonly accepted and repeated among the fandom. It would be a strawman argument if not for how many people take it seriously. "It would absolutely be an awful thing to give Link dialog! I mean, just look at the cartoon and the CD-i games!" That Nintendo had essentially zero involvement in the story and characterizations of both of those projects never seems to occur to anyone.
  • To answer your question, according to Zelda's Brawl trophy, Zant came and took over Hyrule on the same day as her coronation, so she never became a queen. No idea why she wasn't crowned at the end of the game, though.
    • I don't think too much time had passed between the final boss battle and Midna leaving. I think Midna would've been anxious to get home and sort out Zant's mess, so they probably went straight from the final battle to Arbiter's Grounds. Just a thought.

• Hylian geography. I've been hurting my brain trying to piece together how the geography of Twilight Princess relates to OoT. The ruined Temple of Time clearly looks like it could have been the same one from OoT. So that would mean that the old Hyrule Castle Town existed in what is now overgrown forest. And that would mean that the new Castle Town was moved several miles North. But then why are Death Mountain, Kakariko Village, and Lake Hylia in such radically different positions? Maybe Hyrule sits on some very active plate boundaries that have shifted the land dramatically? Or maybe they are all actually different places but were given the same names as places from the old Hyrule, when the Hylians were forced to migrate North for some reason?
  • You know, I know this is a crazy idea, but maybe thinking about exact things from "chronological game" to "chronological game" is stupid.
    • If you actually compare maps of Hyrule across the series, the positions of landmarks do match up suprisingly well. The position of the Master Sword in Twilight Princess even plays with this by showing the Temple of Time from Ocarina Of Time turn into the Lost Woods from A Link To The Past.
    • That said, they do take liberties for the sake of gameplay, and the map of this game does blur things a bit more than usual. The biggest trick to keep in mind here is that they flipped the map and turned it upside down. (Which, oddly enough, makes the Wii version more "accurate", since it reset the flipping. The movement of the sun in that version suddenly becomes accurate too if you change your perception of North.)

• How can anyone not question Link using Rupees to power the Magic Armor?
  • Hey, in the first game, shooting arrows drains your Rupees.
    • I remember someone theorizing that Rupees make good arrowheads, due to being sharp-edged.
  • Someone did.
  • It's quite simple. The armour gives the wearer a direct line to Death, which Link uses to bribe him to keep him alive longer. As Discworld has shown us, Death needs to hire outside assistance to help with his plumbing, and he needs to be able to pay the plumber somehow.
    • That would explain why getting hit drains rupees, but what about simply wearing it? Are we expected to believe that it's heavy enough to crush Link beneath its weight?

• So did anyone else get a small romantic vibe between Zelda and Midna in Twilight Princess, or is it just wishful thinking?
  • I saw it too, but I am no Yuri-fangirl, so I try to ignore it.... Still. Midna was induced with Zelda's freakin soul by her, for crying out loud! Nobody can deny that that has something romantic.
    • Ilia, damn you all. Link and Ilia is the closest thing to canon romance in the whole damn series.
    • And you think that, because...? Look, in Phantom Hourglass, there's loads of evidence towards Link x Tetra, then, in Link's Awakening, there are at least a thousand clues towards Link x Marin. Oh, and in Ocarina of time, Mido even ADMITS that Saria probably had the hots for Link. Now, Ilia is not anymore romantically involved with him than any of those other girls. But, you know what? There is NO such thing as canon romance in Zelda! BECAUSE IT'S A NINTENDO GAME, GET OVER IT! If you want Canon romance, go play Final Fantasy X .
    • Anju and Kafei would like to have a word with you. Although admittedly, they are the exception, and most people probably add "involving the protagonist" in the back of their minds when the phrase 'canon romance' comes up.
    • It's pretty obvious that Link and Ilia are bf/gf in this game.
    • Not really. Link just has this rare disease that causes every scene he does with a female around his own age to look like something freshly ripped from the pages of a romance novel. Remember when Midna passes out after breaking the barrier around the castle, and after the fade-out the scene fades back in to her in his arms, and he's smiling at her?
    • But Zelda and Midna, man...

• When you defeat King Bulbin for the last time in Twilight Princess, he tells you his people always follow the strongest. Then he leaves, never to be seen again. Fair enough. But WHY, WHY do the Moblins under his command stay in the castle? You just defeated their boss, so why aren't they: a) running the hell out of there; b) following your orders, as new chief of the Moblin tribe, aiding you in storming the castle? Yes, I realize if they did either, The Group couldn't have pulled off their Big Damn Heroes moment, but come on! How'd they get in the castle anyway?
  • Ganondorf influenced the weak-minded mooks?
    • This one is probable. Note how monsters act up in every era whenever Ganon(dorf) is getting active, even species that hadn't existed last time he was around (Bokoblins, mini-moldworms) or species that hadn't counted as "monsters" before, like the Zora/Zola in 2D games. Chances are he has some mumbo-jumbo that makes feral creatures and/or anything with darkness in its heart serve his will, knowingly or unknowingly. He isn't called the "King of Evil" for nothing, after all.

• Can someone please explain to me why some people think Ganon is Killed Off for Real as of TP despite his countless resurrections?
  • Because he's dead as opposed to sealed away like people usually think of him. This is only the second or third time he's been killed killed, as opposed to sealed killed. Just because he's dead doesn't mean he won't reincarnate and/or get resurrected by some malicious ritual. It's just to contrast that a ritual or reincarnation is needed in this regard, as opposed to a door of some sort.
    • Resurrected? Sure. Reincarnated? Unlikely, as noone is reincarnated in this series except possibly the Owl Kaepora Gaebora.
      • Noone is outright stated to reincarnate. The moment they come up with a non-reincarnation reason for why dozens people spread out over the millennia all look, fight, and act exactly the same, have an outfit embedded in their soul, and occasionally get born with a mystic artifact embedded in their left hand, we will stop talking about reincarnation
  • Conversly, some people also say that Ganondorf is Deader Than Dead in The Wind Waker as well, for the same reasons as in Twilight Princess. This would make him Killed Off for Real in BOTH timelines, which, well, doesn't really work out, since where do we place the one dozen remaining Zelda games than? Before Ocarina of Time? He must have survived at least one of those two Stab-Attacks... or some kind of evil Witchkraft guy decided to resurrect him shortly before A Link to The Past for some reason, I don't know...
    • Actually, we have a second Ganon to take care of that -- Trident Ganon of FSA.
    • Seeing as the direct sequels to Wind Waker haven't featured Ganondorf again to date (not taking into account the timeline), I think it's safe to assume that he is Deader Than Dead there too.
    • We've seen at least two ways of resurrecting him: in Zelda 2, his Mooks could bring him back using Link's blood, and in the Oracle games, his mother(s) could bring him back via a ritual involving chaos and sorrow on an international level -- both of which bring him back from true 100% death. We've seen by comparing Four Swords Adventure and Ocarina of Time that he gets reincarnated into a nigh-identical life at least once -- perhaps more offscreen. Chances are pretty damn good he's been resurrected and reincarnated via the same methods or other methods several other times in both timelines, we simply haven't seen or played those resurrections, reincarnations, and sealings... yet.
      • It's a lot more likely FSA Ganon is a completely different Ganon if you actually read the story.
      • It has been theorized that the Triforce of Power grants its wielder immortality. If that's true, Wind Waker Ganondorf would have died, as he gave it up to reform the Triforce. Twilight Princess Ganondorf still had it, and so will probably be up and kicking within a week.
      • Except he didn't have it at the very end. When he tried to use it after Link shoved the Master Sword into his chest, it abandoned him, the mark disappeared from his hand, and thus he died.
    • I'm sorry, I never had a Gamecube, can somebody tell me why the FSA version of Ganondorf is different from the other ones? I looked it up on Zeldapedia, but there's not enough information there to suggest that he's actually a separate character. And to the person who thought that Ganondorf was deader than dead in the WW timeline because he wasn't in either of the DS games: Ganon is almost never in handheld games. His only handheld appearance to date is in a linked Oracle game. In contrast, he is in every console game except Zelda 2 (in which part of your goal is to prevent his resurrection, ergo, he is still a major part of story) and Majora's Mask. Ganon's non-appearance in a handheld title means next to nothing.
  • Ganondorf is Killed Off for Real. But nobody ever said anything about Ganon.

• The whole I Fight for the Strongest Side scene. Fair enough, he presumably comes from a culture raised by that philosophy, but he's fought Link three or four times by then! Why did it take him that long to figure out that the guy who kept beating him was stronger than he was?
  • He wasn't sure if Link was stronger than his current master or not. Link was always stronger than him, but he wasn't certain if Link was stronger than Ganondorf/Zant yet.

• This game follows the child's timeline, correct? So that means Ganondorf was stopped before he conquered Hyrule, thus the original Link never became the Hero of Time. If that's the case, why are allusions are still made back to Ocarina of Time, talking about the legacy of the green clothes and the Master Sword?
  • I don't know, maybe the Light Spirits and the Godesses were all having a nice beer, and one of the Goddesses was all like "Hey man, you see that dude over there, he like killed an evil green desert dude. He's so awesome, let's have him honored on both timelines, even the one where he never killed desert dude, 'cause that's how we roll." ....I have come to the conclusion that the Goddesses of Hyrule are always drunk. Maybe that's why they never thought to just strike Ganondorf with lightning or something pre-Wind waker.
  • Notice that everyone is going on about the "Hero of Time" in Wind Waker, but in this game he's just a title-less hero. Young Link still did heroic things while wearing green clothes. The Master Sword still existed, too; history was just rewritten so it wasn't used in that time period.
  • My guess is they're not referring to Ocarina's Link, but one of his descendants who comes between him and Twilight Princess'.
    • They could also be referring to the Link from Skyward Sword
  • Well, it's never exactly made clear how Link and Zelda got Ganondorf arrested in the Majora's Mask timeline. This troper has seen theories that Link used knowledge of the future to help Zelda convince the king that Ganondorf is evil. Thus, I've kind of been assuming that Link could still be called the Hero of Time even in the MM timeline if he knows the future. Plus, even though that section of OOT doesn't actually exist in the TP branch, Majora's Mask does, so combining Link's heroics in that game with the whole knowledge-of-the-future theory explains why he would still have a legacy in this game.

• Besides the obvious, why do all of the fans complain about how Ganondorf appeared in the game when they also complained that Nintendo would forget to put him in?
  • That's the thing; it's not like the same fans would complain about both things. There's a sizable group that would be very unhappy if Ganondorf wasn't in the game, and there's a sizable group that would be very unhappy that once again, Ganondorf was in a freaking game. It's just that after the game came out, the latter half were the ones who had something to complain about.

• Malo Mart. First of all, the Castle Town Shop sells items marked up by thousands of Rupees, and yet Malo is able to buy the whole shop for a mere 1000 Rupees. I realize that after the bridge was rebuilt, the availability of cheap goods from Kakariko Village would have undercut the Castle Shop's profitability, but 1000 Rupees for the whole shop is ridiculous.
  • Link invested at least 1200 Rupees towards rebuilding the bridge and acquiring the Castle Shop, yet never receives any dividends for it, or even a discount at the shop.
    • Of course, once it becomes a branch of Malo Mart, he can get the items sold there for half the price you pay at most other shops. Contrast with the Gorons who set up shop there and charge more than the usual for Lantern Oil (30 vs. 20), Red Potions, and Arrows (40 vs. 30).
  • One possible explaination: Malo somehow found a stock of Rupoors and snuck them into the Castle Shop's Rupee storage. With all his funds destroyed, Chudley was forced to sell for whatever he could get. That's not screwy economics, that's underhanded business. (Of course, there's no way to actually prove this.)
  • In light of the fact that rupoors don't seem to exist in Twilight Princess, I have a different theory. Malo Mart's Castle Town branch began as a kiosk, but their low, low prices for high, high quality products and catchy theme music quickly drove the comparatively less-affordable, humorless shop out of business, and Malo was able to buy the property for what must have been a fraction of its actual value. In short, basic capitalism prevailed, granting victory to the Hero of Discounts.

• Maybe it's because we don't actually get to see it on-screen, but Ilia's subplot totally makes no sense to me. So she was kidnapped, somehow ended up hiding out with an old cat lady in a remote village you can't even get into before a Goron clears a rock slide, and then somehow is wandering along in Hyrule field when she finds a dying Zora boy who she takes to Castle Town, and somewhere along the way she loses her memory, for some unexplained reason. And all before Link finally gets to Castle Town himself. Though I don't really feel strongly about her either way, I can kind of see why some of the fanbase thinks she's a Damsel Scrappy.
  • I figured it went like this -- the bulbins take her and the kids, but Ilia is taken off on her own since the Bulbins probably... ehh, 'appreciate' her more than their other catches, so they take her up to one of their hangouts in the Hidden Village. The poison in the arrow that shot her, along with trauma, affects her brain and shoves her memories to the back of her head. But even an amnesic knows that creepy monsters are creepy, so she breaks free from them at first chance. She runs but can't get far, but then Impaz (who heard her trying to escape) lets her into her house and they hide out together for a little while. Impaz helps with the poison, and Ilia's trauma keeps her memories at bay. Impaz thinks that someone young and spry like Ilia could have a chance to get out, so Impaz creates a distraction (like slingshoting rocks at an explosive barrel or something) which gives Ilia enough time to escape the hidden village. Something causes a rockfall which blocks the bulbins off from chasing her and seals the entrance to the town. She wanders around in Hyrule field, trying to find some place to go, finds the Zora prince on her way, and they both go to Castle Town together. They spend a little time with Telma, but his condition gets worse and Ilia tries to help... then Link gets there.
• This is more of a fandom thing than something from the actual plot, but I don't understand why so many people (at least, in the areas of the internet I frequent) think Midna and Zant make a good couple. It's quite obvious that they see each other as obstacles that must be destroyed in order to obtain their goals, and last time I checked, someone who tries to kill you is not a good candidate for a signifigant other. Also, I personally saw Midna and Zant as being estranged siblings (which would explain why Zant assumed he was to become ruler of the Twili, and why the people who decide this sort of thing went for Midna instead), which makes the whole ship smell of incest to me. Granted, I know not everyone's going to have the "they were brother and sister!" interpretation of this, but my preceding point still stands regardless.
  • It's shipping. Don't look for, or expect, any sort of real logic or any resemblance to the characters in the game, because your average shipper barely pays attention to any of that sort of thing. If you go in looking for real reasoning for a given ship, you're going to come out disappointed.
    • (original poster) Yeah, guess I didn't think about that aspect of fandom. I mean, I support a ship between Zant and Paula, which makes even less sense. Ah, crazy fictional romance.

• Sky City: highest point in Hyrule. Boss battle spot: highest point in Sky City. Boss battle: using the Clawshots to climb up some giant towers, using the Iron Boots to slam a giant dragon into the ground, using the Clawshots again to traverse the air, clinging to the back of said giant dragon, and stabbing at it with a sword. Clawshots: metal. Towers: metal. Iron Boots: metal. Giant dragon: armored in metal. Sword: metal. Battle setting: middle of a lightning storm. To reiterate: Link is at the highest altitude humanly possible, covered in metal, attached to metal, and inside of a cloud that is shooting lightning. Do you see my question?
  • I do, and I've got an answer for you: The whole thing isn't grounded.
  • Electrical current prefers the way of least electrical resistance, and since metal is a pretty good conductor, everything is shiny as long everything is in contact with each other. Another relevant point is, if Sky City is big enough to span an area of a thunderstorm with a decent differing voltage, it doesn't matter it's not being grounded, the city would still qualify as an conductor (resulting in - best case scenario - a bolt impacting Shy City on one end and on the opposite end another bolt being emitted by Sky City, depending on the conductivity of the city's materials). And to elaborate the former speaker's argument, lighting bolts hit higher places more often due to them being closer to the sky and therefore there being much less electrical resistance to cross the distance clouds->ground. Since Sky City isn't connected to the ground (i.e. grounded), it probably has the same electrical charge as the clouds surrounding it.

• Why are there two Light Spirits just a bridge's walk away from each other?
  • Said bridge technically crosses the divide between Ordon and Hyrule. This doesn't explain why Faron hangs out so close to the southern border and Ordona so close to the northern border. Maybe it's because Ordon is so small, but even in the US, Providence is well over a half hour's drive away from the nearest state capital, Boston.

• The Hero's Shade is generally accepted to be the previous Link from Ocarina of Time, who saved both Hyrule and Termina and was never seen from again. He appears to TP Link in order to pass on the lost fighting techniques of the Hero of Time. The problem is, why are none of the moves he teaches present in OoT or MM? That is, except for the "Great Spin", because Link was able to perform the magic spin, but that's still a stretch. Does this imply that the Hero of Time went on to have more adventures to learn more moves after Majora's Mask? The Hero's Shade is, in fact, an adult, and the Hero of Time was only a child when we saw him last.
  • And in case anyone forgot, the hidden skills he teaches you are: The ending blow, shield attack, back slice, helm splitter, mortal draw, jump strike, and great spin.
  • There is also the fact of the Link in Soul Calibur II for the Gamecube (I know it is a crossover, but Link does do those in that game) and at the end he goes from the Soul Calibur world back into Hyrule,p; it could be the Child Link all grown up.
    • Seeing as the Hero's Shade probably lived and died after many years and in Majora's Mask Link was only ten years old, it would be safe to assume that N64!Link learned those moves as he aged.

• So just about everybody by now knows that Midna is the Twilight Princess. The question is, she refers to Zelda as the Twilight Princess when you first meet her in the game. Is this just a hint of snarkiness on her part since Zelda's a captive princess in the Twilight Realm, or is there some deeper conniving going on here?
  • The developers' reason for doing that is that they didn't want to spoil that Midna was the Twilight Princess, so they used Zelda as a scapegoat so that the players would accept that the title refers to Zelda as opposed to Midna. The in-game reason is that Midna, ashamed of how low she has sunk, doesn't want anybody to know that she, a defeated imp, is the princess of the Twilight Realm. She neglects to tell anyone, and uses her own title to refer to Zelda just to be snarky. She outright says she doesn't care about Link, Zelda, or the world of light and probably just wanted to say something to make Zelda feel bad to make herself feel better.

• I'm not bothered by the fact that people like Midna. While I've never really seen anything appealing about her, I understand that mileages vary, I mean, look at people's reactions to the N64 Zeldas. But, am I the only one who's noticed she seems kind of... Sue-ish? And I don't mean that as an insult or a compliment, what I mean is... Going down a list of common Mary-Sue qualities, Midna scores pretty high. Pulling unexplained powers out of her ass? Check. (The best example I can think of being in the early game when she suddenly takes on the ghostly shapes of a screaming Ilia and Collin when reminding Link how he got into his predicament). Failure to actually use said powers when faced with problems they could instantly solve? Check. (Gee, it sure would be helpful if she threw projectiles like the one she used to break Wolf Link's chain on enemies, or used that disintegration power she used on the Ordon Shield and Sword when you first got them.) Part of a race awkwardly shoe-horned into the established canon? Check. (So if the Goddesses decided that magic-using mortals were so much trouble they needed an eternal time-out in a dimension all their own, why did they let Koume and Kotake or Ganondorf slip by?) High social standing? Check. Erratic characterization? I'd call that a check. ("I did that with just a fraction of my ancestor's power? *Proceeds to never revisit that train of thought*) Romance with the protagonist? As close to a check as this series has gotten so far. Flaunted Beauty? Check. (Am I so beautiful that you have no words left?) Once again, I'm not trying to insult her or her fans, this is just an observation that seems pretty obvious to me and I'm surprised that only I seem to have made it. (Not like that's going to stop a depressingly high number of them from seeing it like that, given the fandom's track record, but hey, no harm in hoping the irrationally angry will just blog about what a twat I am for insulting their favorite character rather than spew their bile at me directly.)
  • Midna definitely has a lot of Sueish qualities, but some of them moreso than others. She doesn't use her powers to help Link in the beginning because, frankly, she is being a lazy jerk and doesn't feel like helping more than she has to. The erratic characterization point is definitely a YMMV as well; many people see it as mere shock/surprise rather than a full on Heroic BSOD, and Midna follows up the realization that she has that much power by using the full scope of it twice -- once to destroy the barrier around the castle and the other when she attacks Ganon all by herself. In a lot of ways, Midna acts as a co-protagonist with Link, and the title of the game reflects her general importance in it. This fact doesn't make her less sueish regarding the Legend of Zelda series as a whole, but having protagonist billing tends to explain a great deal about why a character has certain attributes. Link, as protagonist, is amazingly attractive, has women falling all over him, is one of two or three people from the Light Realm who doesn't become a spirit in the Twilight Realm, which quality marks him as a legendary hero where the Twili are concerned, has a grand destiny (again), can pick up any skill required of him in a short time (it's even lampshaded), is brave and cheerful from what we can tell, despite everything that's happened to him, and he's on good terms with if not actively revered by everyone who isn't evil. The big difference in Twilight Princess is that usually Link shares the spotlight with Zelda (who has a lot of sueish traits as well), and Midna is an entirely new character. Which is why you have to be careful with interjecting new characters into canon, because Your Mileage May Vary comes strongly into play and traits that people accept from longrunning characters are very obviously sueish in new ones.
    • Both of you have a good point, but I can definitely see where the OP is coming from on this. Link seems considerably less Sue-ish than Midna precisely because Midna is a "lazy jerk who doesn't feel like helping" in the beginning, whereas Link being the player character means that you are the one doing almost all of the work here, so it feels like you are getting complimented yourself when the characters say all these awesome things about Link. Again, I also realize that mileages can vary, but it's partly because Midna can very easily be seen as a Spotlight-Stealing Squad even without all the erratically-developed powers/flaunted beauty/etc. that some people see her as a Sue.

• Why does day turn into night, and vice versa, so quickly when you are snowboarding against Yeto and Yeta?
  • Time Flies when you are having fun.

• Is it me or nobody in Hyrule Castle Town seems to notice the barrier around the castle? Were they all brainwashed by Ganondorf? Why are there guards and none of them is alarmed? Why does nobody notice a giant spider abomination climbing on the barrier and destroying it? Is Hyrule Castle Town populated by idiots?

• Why did Ganondorf lock himself up in the throne room? Was he expecting Link to come and thought "I'll just wait for him here, and magically lock the outer side of the door so that he'll have to look for the boss key"?