< Final Fantasy XIII

Final Fantasy XIII/Headscratchers


WARNING: Unmarked Spoilers Below!

  • If Orphan is actually a Death Seeker, why does it bother to defend itself when being attacked by Lightning's party?
    • Would you really want Orphan to just stand there whilst you kick the crap out of it?
      • But from a storyline perspective it makes no sense.
      • If it bothers you that much, think of it as Orphan trying to get the party to become Ragnarok.
      • To tell the truth, that's the entire point. The entire party wanted not to kill Orphan, and if he left them well enough alone, they wouldn't. So he attacks them to get them to fight, but they're not killing him fast enough, so he puts a literal timer on their heads. If that still doesn't get him dead fast enough, he just uses the most likely person to turn into Ragnarok and gets them to turn into Ragnarok to end his life quicker.
      • His focus (which it's implied Fal'Cie have, but works different from L'Cie focus) forces him to defend himself.
    • The whole Orphan battle's just weird. Orphan wants to die, but fights hard to kill the party and survive, and in its final form seems almost annoyed with the party for fighting it. Also, the heroes know Orphan's death will destroy Cocoon, and they have no plan for how to avoid this, yet they fight Orphan anyway; not really seeming to care about the consequences of their actions despite Orphan's death being the purpose for the events of the entire game.
      • The way I saw it, Orphan had a Focus to protect and keep Cocoon running, which he couldn't disobey, hence the need for the L'Cie. Barthandelus leads them to and traps the L'Cie inside Orphan's Chamber. Orphan is "forced" to attack the group of powerful enemy L'Cie charged with killing it, and the L'Cie don't exactly have the ability to come up with a plan with a Fal'Cie pummeling their faces in. They can't flee, so they have to fight. I was under the impression that their original plan was to kill Barthandelus and save Orphan. They weren't prepared for Orphan to be in on Barty's plan.
        • That doesn't really explain the need for the l'Cie. Why go to all the trouble of the ridiculously roundabout plan that really shouldn't have worked when all they needed was someone to kill Orphan, who is really weak in his normal form?
        • Who exactly are they going to get to kill Orphan? First of all, no Cocoon fal'Cie can grant a Focus of kill our source of power and destroy Cocoon. Second of all, Orphan, whether he likes it or not, can't deny his Focus of protecting Cocoon, so whatever genocidal/stupid schlub that agrees to kill him is going to be torn to pieces immediately. L'Cie can choose not to accept their Focus, even knowing that they'll become Cie'th. Orphan is going to HAVE to protect himself. Their roundabout plan was to make the group strong enough that one of them could become Ragnarok and overpower Orphan, or fail and become Cie'th, at which case, they wouldn't have been able/willing to defeat Orphan at all. The group took a third option. Orphan may have been easy in his normal form, but then again, it took 6 l'Cie that went through Training from Hell, killed two fal'Cie, and through the power of will, turned back from Cie'th to do it.
        • What do you mean, "who"? They had, quite literally, dozens of better alternatives than that ridiculously contrived plan. I can come up with some off the top of my head without even trying: 1. Lie to the citizens of Cocoon and tell them Orphan is a rogue Pulse l'Cie that infiltrated the Sanctum. Watch the Zerg Rush and panic do the work of killing Orphan and the citizens of Cocoon. 2. Make a hundred, or a thousand, l'Cie, give them all the Focus of killing Orphan, and let simple statistical probability take over. There was no reason the party had to be so strong to kill Orphan, they likely could have done it near the beginning of their journey without the Doom spell, so a dozen or more weaker l'Cie should also be able to handle it. 3. Forget killing Orphan, just empty the Arc into the streets. There's nothing that PSICON or the GC has that can stop a dozen adamantoises or so. Not to mention what the panic will do to the population. 4. Let the Cavalry kill it. Orphan had exactly one attack: Doom. That's not going to do any good against dozens or hundreds of charging military personnel. 5. Change a whole bunch of civilians in crowded areas into Cie'th, watch the bloodbath, possibly in combination with any of the above (don't forget the Sacrifice Cie'th were actually more dangerous and a pain to beat than Orphan itself). Also, they most certainly did not "take a third option." They did exactly what the Big Bad wanted them to do and they swore they wouldn't, with no plan whatsoever for preventing the catastrophic results of their stupidity.
        • 1. "Infiltrated the Sanctum" and just happens to be within Eden, connected to Eden, and had created/is powering Cocoon. Are you sure that makes sense? 2. Aren't the citizens explicitly referred to as so afraid of anything to do with Pulse, l'Cie, or any variation thereof that doesn't fit in with their comforting "fal'Cie provide us with X" notion that they'd rather purge each other? Kind of defeats the whole "turn a thousand of them into l'Cie and let them do the work". They'd just turn into weak Cie'th from the shock of becoming one anyway.
      • 3. That was his back up plan/threat to lure the group back to Cucoon. Also, Barty and Orphan want to die. Emptying the arc doesn't accomplish this. 4. Orphan's final form had more attacks than 'doom'. It has to defend itself because its Focus is protecting Cuccon, and so it will be compelled to use its strongest form. Besides, PSICOM has better equipment than everyone (this is pointed out in ch 1 and then 10, at least) and they're just mooks. Calvary would be just as effective. 5. Same as (3).
        • They took a third option by killing Orphan and saving Cocoon, spiting the fal'Cie. Society will have to adapt to not being spoonfed by the fal'Cie, but they'll live (the ending implied there was No Endor Holocaust). As posted above, when Orphan turned out to be a Death Seeker, the whole "kill-Barthandelus-and-save-Orphan" plan went right out the window. Anyway, your first option would probably just lead to everyone in Eden getting purged, or mass-executed by PSICOM, maybe starting a new civil war in Eden. It may not be a horrible option for the fal'Cie, but more likely, it would just cause a revolt against Sanctum (how would a Pulse fal'Cie get inside the Edenhall heart without meeting PSICOM/Eden created l'Cie resistance?). Your second point has already been addressed; no Cocoon fal'Cie can grant a Focus of killing Orphan. Pulse fal'Cie can, but Anima is implied to have died, or else is stuck in the Vestige at the bottom of Lake Brescha, and no one with a right mind on Cocoon is going to go anywhere near that. Third/Fifth point: Orphan has to die for the plan to work. To bring the Maker back, Cocoon has to be destroyed, sacrificing all the lives of the people at the same time as the fal'Cie. Just killing/Cie'thing the populace is just going to leave the fal'Cie very, very bored, with nothing left to do for eternity. And Orphan's true form had more than Doom as an attack. It has a Launch attack, as well as some eye beams, and "Kaleidoscopic Ray", which deals quite a bit of damage.
      • Continued in the forums, where paragraphs can actually be made.


  • So every single fal'Cie was in on the plan to have the l'Cie kill Orphan, thus killing themselves in the process but also reviving the Maker? So was Barthandelus the only one who had any sort of will of his own? We are told that fal'Cie are hardwired into Cocoon and can't do anything except for what they're made for... so Barthandelus was hardwired to destroy Cocoon? In fact, there's a few problems with this, "We're only hardwired to do one thing and we can't do anything to hurt Orphan or Cocoon" thing: clearly there's no problem in using a non-l'Cie substitute in order to cause damage to Cocoon, such as ordering PSICOM soldiers to carry out a mass execution or setting a whole ton of Pulse monsters on the populace. If you really wanted to kill everyone on Cocoon at once, couldn't you get someone to rig up a massive bomb or something? It would be easier to accomplish than smuggling in a Pulse fal'Cie, exposing people to it so that they become l'Cie with a Focus of becoming Ragnarok, and then engineering a huge chain of events so that eventually they gain enough power to kill something that will cause the planet to drop.
    • No kidding. Bart claims he can't destroy Cocoon, and neither can any other fal'Cie, but he unleashes all the monsters from the Arc, and there is no way that PSICOM or the Guardian Corps were going to stop all of them. Why didn't he just do that in the first place, call it a Pulse invasion, and watch the bloodbath in the streets? Or declare that Orphan was a newly discovered Pulse fal'Cie and let any old human kill it? Why the ridiculous roundabout plan? Or, for that matter, since he obviously could act to destroy Cocoon, why not just "unplug" Eden from Orphan? The whole damn plot makes absolutely no sense. It's a good thing the character development and interaction is so good, because that's all that saves the writing.
    • Bart has no free will of his own (he is simply mouthy, but still fulfilling his god-given task of overseeing the Cocoon citizens,) and releasing monsters from the Ark was pretty much just a Plan B/"slow way" to Kill All Humans. The datalog itself says that Bart never intended for the party to reach Orphan, and he assumed that they were just going to go crazy and kill people alongside the monsters in despair and rage.
    • I'm pretty sure the datalog said that Bart never intended the Cavalry to reach Orphan. The whole "appointing Raines as Primarch" drew the Cavalry into the Edenhall. Bart played it up like the Cavalry was his plan B for killing Orphan if the L'Cie were just going to drag their asses around for too long. The party wants to save Orphan, stop the Cavalry from falling headfirst into Bart's trap, and stop Barthandelus for good. His entire plan rests on the shoulders of the party killing Orphan.
  • What was Anima's role in all this? Was it in on Barthandelus' plan, or did Barthandelus guess that Anima would give the "turn into Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon" Focus to everyone?
    • Everything that Anima has done for the past five hundred years has been related to Ragnarok - making Fang and Vanille l'Cie, branding Serah to bring people to Anima to make them l'Cie and branding the party members to try to turn them into l'Cie. Anima seems purely focused on Ragnorak. Barthandelus was just counting on Anima not giving up on the goal of destroying Cocoon.
    • Well, Barthandelus may have been lying. The Focus vision the party has is of the ending, where Ragnarok saves Cocoon from falling. Perhaps Anima was trying to prevent Barthandelus and the other Cocoon Fal'Cie from winning.
    • Agreeing with the above entry. Barthandelus was lying. Let's face it, nearly every single important thing he said was a lie to get the l'Cie to act in destroying Orphan. "Pulse and Cocoon are enemies! The opposite sides are vipers/monsters? Whoops, I Lied. You're alike, but you humans are too blind to see it." "I'm going to let the Cavalry attack Orphan, catch them if you can! Whoops, I Lied. They're Cie'th now. You still have to 'save' Orphan, though." "Your Focus is to become Ragnarok and end Orphan's suffering, destroying Cocoon!" ... What does anyone think goes there? The Focus vision the party had was vague enough for Barthandelus to put anything there as long as it suited his purpose.
      • Exactly. If it's one thing that everyone must keep in mind on this page, it's that Barthandelus is a filthy liar. There is no reason to believe a single word he says.
    • Added note: Soon after Anima brands the party as l'Cie, it began to crystallize (destroying the Hanging Edge in the meanwhile) and landed into Lake Bresha, crystallizing that as well. This verges into WMG territory, but it looks like Anima completed its own Focus (finally), which was to make the l'Cie necessary to save Cocoon with the use of Ragnarok.
      • Someone else figured this out too? Good! After a couple playthroughs, or watching the cutscenes online in some cases, you can clearly see Orphan's Cradle coming before Ragnarok, who is in Eden. Additionally, in the datalogs, it states that the Pulse Fal'Cie are searching for something. But they are also more than capable of getting into a war with Cocoon. This means that they probably have a bit more flexibility than the Cocoon Fal'Cie when it comes to interpreting their Foci. Anima's Focus was probably "protect humans". With how dangerous Gran Pulse is, being able to interpret things differently is crucial to the survival of the Fal'Cie as well as the humans.
  • So we get told that if someone suffers massive psychological trauma then they may turn into Cie'th immediately. Gee Barthandelus, maybe you should order your subordinates not to do shit like taunting the dad about his crystalised son. I get that Barthandelus was throwing challenge after challenge at the party to "train" them, but remember: the crux of his entire plan rests on the fact that these six are the only Pulse l'Cie on Cocoon. He can't make more, since he ordered the army to destroy the Vestige that housed Anima. If they turn into Cie'th, his plan fails. So maybe it would be a good idea not to psychologically torment the party if at all possible, at least until his plan required it for one of them to become Ragnarok.
    • At several points in the story, the human/Fal'Cie/l'Cie relationship is likened to that between humans and their tools or pets. The emotional trauma and constant hardships are intended to hone said tools into a weapon to destroy Cocoon. If that tool breaks, oh well. It's not like there aren't millions of other replacements.
      • But it does matter because there are no replacements. Anima has been destroyed by PSICOM, and Barthandelus has no other way to make Pulse l'Cie, let alone l'Cie with the specific Focus he needs.
    • Barthandelus has only casual interest in the rest of the party, he's primarily interested in Fang and Vanille. In fact, he's the one who turned Fang & Vanille into crystal hundreds of years ago, after observing their power but realizing without Vanille's cooperation that Ragnarok would be incomplete. By the time they awake, he has his personal l'Cie (Cid) capture and befriend Fang, and begins the Purge at any mention of a l'Cie as a way of hunting out Vanille. The emotions of the rest of the party are definitely secondary to his plan. He may have been wanting them to turn into Cieth anyway, judging from how the ending goes. If Lightning/Snow/Sazh/Hope turn Cieth from his emotional torture, it would leave the Pulsians with few options to fight except form Ragnarok.
    • Who said Barthandalus ordered Jihl to deliberately torment Sazh? For all we know, Jihl did that of her own volition to see what would happen.
  • Why does anyone turn back from Crystal Stasis? They never explain what the conditions are, if any.
    • l'Cie who finish their Focus are considered servants to the fal'Cie, and so when they don't need you you're a crystal and when they do they revive you. Vanille and Fang were needed, and the other people were needed to "establish that happy world".
    • Death of the fal'Cie who issued the focus may also be a way for them to turn back - it's the only possible solution for why everybody turns back at the end.
      • But that doesn't work, since it was Anima who issued the Focus for Serah and Dajh.
      • Anima for Serah, but it was the fal'Cie at the Euride plant that issued Dajh's focus.
      • Anima was behind the entire party's focus as well.
      • It could work, since all of the fal'Cie on Cocoon probably died, but then Fang and Vanille would have woken up too. Although it looked as though they may have been.
      • They were sentient, so they were definitely different to normal Crystals. It may be something to do with becoming Ragnarok.
    • Barthandelus couldn't exactly tell Jihl not to torment Sazh about the death of his son. As the primarch, it would be very bizarre if he showed any sort of mercy to the Pulse l'cie, who were considered to be the ultimate enemy of Cocoon. Moreover, he made it clear that he had another way to destroy Orphan if his plans for the party didn't work out: he would manipulate the Cavalry into unwittingly destroying it by spreading word that it was using Raines, his replacement, as a puppet.
      • It's one thing to be ruthless towards an enemy. It's another thing to go out of your way to torment them, especially with the knowledge that they could transform into powerful, mindless creatures of destruction. It's not uncommon for leaders to be concerned about the behavior of the people under their command, either.
      • But that other plan was a lie. He turns the Cavalry into Cie'th the moment they enter the Sanctum by making them l'Cie without a Focus.
    • Read the Analects and listen closely to the dialogue. It's strongly, strongly implied that the Goddess Etro had a hand in turning them back. Vanille and Fang remaining crystallized was a sort of reward/reprieve for them after all the crazy trauma they went through.
  • If only Ragnarok can kill a fal'Cie, why does PSICOM attempt to destroy the Pulse Vestige? Does that mean Anima is still alive? In fact, how the bloody hell did Lightning's party kill Orphan without using Ragnarok? The fact that they managed to do so rendered Barthandelus' entire plot (which hinged on the idea that Ragnarok was the only way to kill a fal'Cie) an overcomplicated waste of time.
    • I assumed that Anima was alive after the battle - he turns the party into l'Cie directly after it and has enough energy to emit the wave that destroys the Hanging Edge and crystallizes Lake Bresha. Orphan-wise though, I'm drawing a blank.
    • Ragnarok seems like a bit of Fal'Cie mythology to me. The party kills at least one other Fal'Cie at the end of the Scrappy Level tower.
      • After the first battle with Barthandelus he tells them that he did not die because they did not "fight to win" before telling them of the "sure" way of killing a fal'Cie. They could do it on their own, but Ragnarok would make things a lot easier for them and would be capable of destroying everything at once.
    • Ragnarok was not the only thing that could kill a fal'Cie. Barthandelus never says that. He just says that Ragnarok is the one who's destined to destroy Cocoon. If only Ragnarok could ever kill a fal'Cie, the Euride fal'Cie wouldn't have needed to make Dahj a l'Cie to defend it because Fang and Vanille wouldn't have been a threat.
    • I had the impression that Barthandelus, being aware of the strength of human willpower, knew that they were determined enough to come up with their third option. So he has them use Ragnarok, noted in the datalog as being the incarnation of wrath, to destroy Orphan, hoping that Fang and Vanille would be too caught up in anger to think straight and use Ragnarok's power for good.
  • So there's that scene where Serah and Vanille are talking, and Serah mentions that she had the same dream about Ragnarok that everyone else had, suggesting that her Focus was to become Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon. Vanille then cites that as a reason that Serah turned to crystal for a reason other than completing her Focus. So... what was it? Or did Vanille get it wrong and Barthandelus was actually telling the truth when he said her Focus was to gather potential l'Cie?
    • Serah's focus is never really made clear. I'd say that Vanille was just trying to cheer Snow up and that Barthandelus was telling the truth. She wouldn't of turned to crystal if her focus was to become Ragnarok.
    • Cid turned to crystal (for a bit), and he outright defied his focus. My WMG: a strong sense of personal satisfaction is what triggers the change. Usually that's caused by fulfilling their focus, but perhaps that can be counterfeited by doing something else. Serah got Snow to promise to protect Cocoon, which clearly made her feel relieved. Cid was able to cut his strings (for a bit) and saw that the party was resolved to defy their focus.
  • Just what the heck is that rukh thing of Barthandelus'? We know from the Datalog that it's called Menrva, but what kind of thing functions as a fal'Cie Transformation Trinket, a self-aware Global Airship, a spy camera, and the catalyst for Barthandelus' assimilation into Orphan? I accept that Cocoon and the fal'Cie have access to wonders far beyond our current technology level, but Menrva's only function seems to be to provide whatever plot device the story needs at that moment.
    • Menrva might be Bart's True Body, or at least an aspect of his being.
  • We killed Orphan but managed to screw up Bart's plan anyway, yay! But wait....why didn't everybody die from the massive surge in temperatures, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. caused by the planet falling? Those Ragnarok powers didn't seem to turn on very quickly... Also, the Cocoonians now have no food or power outside of killing the giant turtles and beasts that even their superpowered saviors had trouble killing. How long will they last?
    • Word of God says there may be a direct sequel, so stay tuned for answers.
    • There's also the problem that the Coccoonians now think the heroes tried to kill them all. Hope they enjoy being hunted down by the entire human race.
    • If you mean 'Everyone' as in Everyone on Cocoon, they were already evacuated to Pulse by airship as the l'Cie were fighting as per Rosch's last order. The people aren't pampered anymore, but considering that a couple of Sanctum troops can take down a King Behemoth, their survival isn't that farfetched. That, and no one is actually stupid enough to try and fight a giant turtle or beast that their superpowered saviors have/had trouble killing, considering there are smaller beasts to kill for that. Honestly, the happy ending depends on just how much you did during the game. If you freed the chocobos from the Sahagin, you just unlocked a mode of transportation for the new residents of Pulse. If you activated the Waystones, they have something to occupy themselves with (mining in Mah'habara, fixing machinery in Oerba and making it habitable). If you beat Titan's trials, you're officially strong enough to beat aforementioned beasts without any actual trouble. And even if you didn't do all of that, you unlocked the Menhirrim in Taejin's Tower that flew off to beat the holy hell out of similar beings to Dahaka and 'save the world', and you killed any fal'Cie that would continue giving Cocoonians a Focus. They literally have nothing to worry about except their own stupidity. Re: hunted down by the human race: If you notice by talking to someone in Edenhall before fighting Orphan, they shout 'Damn those Pulse l'Cie!' seemingly unaware that said l'Cie is standing right next to them. Reality Ensues: the public's memory is as malleable as frickin' sand. No one is going to know who they are unless they see an active brand, but since the end has everyone's brand burned off similar to Fang's, it'd be amazing if they did find someone who still hated their guts.
    • Actually, their brands were frozen like Fang's when they were brought back from their Cie'th form, but weren't they completely gone when they woke up from cryostasis? Otherwise, yeah, the people of Cocoon are pretty stupid, but they'll be okay.
    • The Oretoises aren't that big of a problem for your average person living on Pulse. Yes, they're insanely powerful, but the plus side is that they don't attack people unless they're provoked. And unless you have CP or Vendor Trash to grind, Who Would Be Stupid Enough...? to pick a fight with a turtle that's bigger than most houses?
  • Even though they had the same goal, were Barthandelus and Orphan working together to achieve it? The fact that Orphan is a Death Seeker isn't revealed until after the former's defeat, so it isn't made clear. For that matter, were all of the Cocoon fal'cie collaboring with Orphan to destroy it, or were they acting without his consent?
    • I get the idea that the deaths of the millions of Cocoon fal'Cie was decided to be a necessary sacrifice to make their plan work.
    • They had to be working together, otherwise it makes no sense as to why Barthandelus' plan involves killing Orphan and not Eden directly. Maybe there was some kind of suicide pact going on.
    • Well, Eden was getting power from Orphan (and then transmitting the power and orders to the other millions of fal'Cie). If Eden was killed, Orphan could just direct that energy elsewhere. Just killing Eden would be like...well, I can't think of anything but it wouldn't fulfill the focus. Cocoon would still be in the air.
    • There's no concrete evidence that any fal'Cie were in on the plan other than Orphan, Anima, and Bart. You could probably make a case for Eden, too. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But even if they were, who says they all died? Just shutting off Cocoon's power shouldn't kill them any more than it would kill anyone or anything else by itself. For that matter, fal'Cie are really damn tough, so even if the plan had gone off without a hitch they probably would have survived the plummet to Pulse.
    • From the look/sound of it, Barthandelus either created the fal'Cie and shoved them into Cocoon to do his bidding without them any the wiser, or pulled them straight off of Pulse without their consent, with the Maker having made them all beforehand. If they were all in on the plan, it'd just be a Cruel Mercy to have them alive. But on that note, they didn't die. Their regular power is given to them through their crystals, Orphan just amplifies it by channeling it through Eden. Killing off Orphan just lowered their power by end-game. If they can be fished out of what's left of Cocoon, they'll still be functioning, but on a smaller scale.
    • Actually, it was Lindzei that created Cocoon and Cocoon fal'Cie. Analect 8:
      • As our fal'Cie are the children of Hallowed Pulse, so are the fal'Cie who lurk within Cocoon the brood of Lindzei... Cocoon fal'Cie are of Fell Lindzei's line, yet that did not spare them.
    • Analect 3
      • And lo, the viper Lindzei bore fangs into the pristine soil of our Gran Pulse; despoiled the land and from it crafted a cocoon both ghastly and unclean.Lies spilled forth from the serpent's tongue: "Within this shell lies paradise." Men heard these lies and were seduced and led away.
    • Although this throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing if you happen to believe that Bart and Lindzei happen to be the same thing. Anyway, Cocoon fal'Cie are powered by Orphan, he's supposed to be the battery that keeps Cocoon running. If you take the batteries out of a flashlight, then it isn't able to make light. The crystals just seem to be the conduit of Orphan's power and/or an aesthetic similarity (or just because its Final Fantasy and they sure do love their crystals). They may not literally be "dead", if they have consciousness, but they will be "dead" in the eyes of Cocoon citizens, who don't know that their precious keepers are powered by a creepy baby-wheel. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that they Cocoon fal'Cie are still alive, and while there might not be proof that they died, the game seems to be implying that they are.
      • Yeeeeaaaaahh NO. Each fal'Cie is powered by their very own crystal. Orphan just amplifies their already existing power and keeps Cocoon afloat by himself. The battery-flashlight analogy is completely off.
  • If Orphan is the fal'Cie of sunlight, why is Phoenix the, you know, sun of Cocoon?
    • Orphan represents the sun, as the power source of Cocoon that grants life to Eden. He's not the actual sun.
  • Orphan. Especially its first form. Is it supposed to represent something?
    • The purple thing is the dad. The white thing is the mum. The thing in the middle is a child. It's essentially a family, so the final form literally is an orphan since you killed it's parents. It's also part ophanim.
      • You know, speaking of Orphan's 1st form, is Dysley(and Menerva as well) conscious when they're talking or is that Orphan using them both as mouth-pieces? Also, was it part of the plan for Dysley to fall into Orphan's pool or was that just a coincidence?
        • Don't know, I mean it made him more powerful, rather stupid to make their goal of killing Orphan more difficult.
    • The mother part, is it Eden? or what fal'cie is it?
  • I had an honest-to-god fridge moment for this one; why did Fang lose her memory and Vanille didn't?
    • Probably had something to do with her becoming the incomplete Ragnarok and the Goddess having to intervene. Alternatively, she probably single-handedly killed a bunch of Cocoon's people as Ragnarok. Maybe it's all repression.
    • Actually, she didn't. She was lying too, There's a cutscene on Pulse where Vanille basically admits her lie, then Fang admits that she was lying too, to protect Vanille.
      • Actually, she did, she was bluffing to get Vanille to tell her what happened, pushing her to confront her own role in events and thus introducing Hecatoncheir.
    • Maybe she wasn't in control when she transformed, and doesn't have memory of the event, like it happens constantly with people with an evil transformation (hollow ichigo, 4+ tailed Naruto, fully demon Inuyasha etc.)
  • What the hell happened to Oerba? It's covered in crystal dust, and we've only seen Anima and Ragnarok turn things into crystal. Did a l'Cie just crystal-nuke the place turning the War of Transgression? If so, why is there no battle damage? The only damage to the town is normal wear and tear from the passage of time. Considering that a chapter or so of the game is devoted to getting there to find answers, it's pretty appalling that we're given no explanation whatsoever.
    • Anima, Oerba's Fal'Cie, turned some of the people into l'Cie to defend the town. Those l'Cie eventually became Cie'th, so more l'Cie had to be made, which eventually became Cie'th... on and on until the entire town is Cie'thed. Maybe Cie'th just give off crystal dust as their bodies get worn down over time, and there's certainly been no short supply of either.
      • So why does the party find similar crystal lights floating around in Orphan's chamber? Personally, my guess is it has something to do with the presence of a fal'Cie. In Oerba, there was Anima, Oerba's fal'Cie, and later Barthandelus was in the area at the same time as the party. More dust is found in Eden, when the party sees Dysley again (I believe it's the area with the Adamantoise). Towards the end, we find it again in Orphan's lair, where both Bart and Orphan were waiting.
    • Don't forget, Vanille and Fang were in crystal stasis for over five hundred years before the events of the game started. A lot can happen in that time frame.
    • This is one of the things explained in the "optional" Datalog - Anima was responsible for the maintenance of Oerba before it was taken to Cocoon. Anima's absence meant that it couldn't maintain Oerba any longer - what you see is what happens when a town dependant on fal'Cie maintenance stops receiving it.
      • Actually it still hasn't been explained what the white dust means. It was a town, why would it would have so much crystal dust just because it didn't had a Fal'cie? Toejin Tower didn't got covered in crystal dust.
        • I think it's implied that due to the proximity of Cocoon, dust began falling on it.
        • Doylist reason: white crunching not-snow still stands for Snow Means Death.
  • Lindzei, Cocoon, The Maker, Hallowed Pulse, and Barthandelus. Oh boy. A clusterfuck of Pulsian lore right here.
    • First, how many deities are there supposed to be, and who are they? Cocoon fal'Cie, Barthandelus especially, refers to "The Maker" as Cocoon's creator, which they seem to believe also happens to be the same one as the god of Pulse. The Analects on the other hand, claim that there was another god named Lindzei that created Cocoon out of Pulse and created his own fal'Cie to operate it. So is "The Maker" supposed to be Lindzei or Hallowed Pulse, or, heaven forbid, an entirely separate entity? Do the Cocoon fal'Cie even know about Lindzei? The Pulsian people obviously do. That's not even counting the headache of adding in the Goddess Etro.
      • The Maker is not charged with the creation of Cocoon, the Cocoon fal'Cie are. If Barthandelus said it was the Maker, he was lying. The Maker is responsible for creating the fal'Cie and humans, that's it. She left before Cocoon was created by Lindzei. The Goddess Etro is a completely different entity, and it's the one that greets the dead when they pass on. Fal'Cie themselves are not gods, they are just considered so because they have powers beyond those a regular human has and provides for them. That's it. Two Gods so far in the Fabula Nova Crystallis mythology: Maker = Life, Etro = Death. The rest are demigods.
      • But the Maker of Cocoon is Lindzei. Analect 2: And lo, the viper Lindzei bore fangs into the pristine soil of our Gran Pulse; despoiled the land and from it crafted a cocoon both ghastly and unclean. and 8: Cocoon fal'Cie are of Fell Lindzei's line... The Maker of Pulse is Hallowed Pulse. Analect 1: Maker forged fal'Cie, from fragments Maker's own. Maker forged Man, from traces once Divine. In time the gods departed, leaving all by their hands wrought. Fal'Cie were as Man forsaken, orphans of Maker absconded. And 7: "It was the Great and Hallowed Pulse who, seeking to expand divine domain, parted the chaos and fashioned realm within; made fal'Cie, and charged them with this world's completion...Men, in turn, offered praise and prayer to Hallowed Pulse, naming their great land in honor of its architect. Yet still the architect departed. The Cocoon fal'Cie are just trying to call back "The Maker" which is left confusingly ambiguous. There are (at least) three gods in the Pulse/Cocoon mythology (the FNC is just a series of themes tying the three games together): Hallowed Pulse (creator of Pulse, the humans, and the Pulsian fal'Cie), Lindzei (creator of Cocoon and the Cocoon fal'Cie), and Etro (we really dont know what she does in the context of FFXIII).
      • Yes, and Lindzei and Barthandelus are the same guy, and Bart is a fal'Cie. The Maker created Pulse by parting the chaos, apparently, and Lindzei had to take a piece of the already-existing Pulse to fashion his own realm rather than simply creating it out of nothing. It's not that unbelievable that he's really a fal'Cie trying to ape the Maker, but is nowhere near the same level as her to do it completely.
    • Second, Barthandelus = Lindzei? They both happen to be lying, scheming, deceitful, shapeshifting Smug Snakes and the datalog on Chapter 13 seems to allude to this with this line:
      • It is for this day that Barthandelus built Cocoon, tended to its people, and watched over the servants of the Pulse fal'Cie.
    • It also just spells it right out in the Ultimania strategy guide to the affirmative, but I'm not quite sure if that happens to be a reliable source.
      • Yeap, they're the same person.
    • Third point, why would Lindzei create Cocoon? Is it just a giant pissing contest with Pulse? He goes and makes a paradise that causes a mass exodus of people from Pulse to populate it, is that supposed to just be a simple "Ha, ha, your people like me more, suck on that bitch >:P". It seems like Lindzei wanted just to show up Hallowed Pulse and make his own super-awesome land, leaving behind fal'Cie to take care of it, and not engage in a mass suicide pact so that he could rub HP's nose in it at the cosmic water cooler. By making the actual process of killing Orphan so damn hard to accomplish, requiring a massive Batman Gambit to actually pull off, it would seem like genocide isn't on his agenda. But Barthandelus then intends to take Cocoon and turn it into a human sacrifice factory and smash it into the ground to bring back "The Maker". If Bart=Lindz, why would he go to this effort when, as its creator, he could just drop it himself? Why would he even want to drop it? Or, did Bart turn around and decide to try and bring The Maker (Lindzei) back, by turning Cocoon into a people farm, meaning they are different people after all?
      • The two things aren't mutually exclusive. Lindzei/Bart created Cocoon as a small cozy shell, making it easy to pack a buttload of people into the same space. No monsters means they don't die on their own, just the right amount of Fal'Cie providing for them means they live long enough to keep the population going, all so Bart can kill them all at once when their haven comes crashing down, as opposed to having him plan on wiping out an entire open field of... stuff. Pulse > Cocoon in size, so that'll take longer. The Pulsians think it's only Lin blaspheming their God and going "Ha ha, I can create shit too" and attracting all of the lazy populace into going to Cocoon to avoid monsters, which gets their reaction of "Alright let's take that fucker down". They're stuck not knowing it's really just a plan to bring back their Mom. He wants to drop Cocoon because to him, the Maker > Humans. Cocoon really doesn't mean anything to him. Problem being that he can't actually kill people himself on account of the whole Focus thing biting him in the ass. Every fal'Cie has one, and none of them involve actually destroying anything so much as converting it into something else (Phoenix only changes the weather, Titan literally chews up one monster and spits out another, etc.), or at the very least guiding them to what can destroy them. The whole thing is explained in-game as thus: Maker = Create, fal'Cie = Convert, Humans/l'Cie = Destroy. That's why Bart doesn't kill Orphan himself or something along those lines. Lastly, if Lindzei and Maker are different gods, there would have to be a decently provided explanation as to where Bart came from with his idea (and where he was during the War of Transgression), why Lindzei left along with the Maker, and why no one mentions Lindzei leaving anywhere at all in the lore. They only refer to one Maker leaving.
    • Analect 8 again: Cocoon fal'Cie are of Fell Lindzei's line, yet that did not spare them. They were betrayed all the same; left orphans when their Succubus fled this earthly realm. And again, why would Lindzei want to bring The Maker back? Lindzei is supposed to be an evil, or at least an uncaring and incredibly devious god. It would be like a mixture of Satan and Loki wiping out the earth to make God start performing miracles again. I think Eden was intended to be The Man, Bart would be The Man Behind the Man, and Orphan would be The Evil Genius. At some point, Bart and Orphan had some form of BSOD approximately around the time of the War of Transgression. At least Barthandelus acting on his own makes sense and has clearly defined motivations. Lindzei just being ambiguously evil and genocidal and going to extreme lengths to manipulate the party just seems a bit of a stretch.
      • Succubi are female, and Lindzei is referred to as a 'he' repeatedly except for that one moment, which makes sense. I'll get to it. Why would Lindzei want to bring the Maker back? Let's see: Lindzei is "supposed to be an evil, uncaring and incredibly devious god"? Barthandelus is an evil, uncaring, and incredibly devious god. Bart is also a fal'Cie. He's also proven to be Lindzei (by the Datalog and the Ultimania guide), and Lindzei being a fal'Cie orphaned just the same as the other Pulse fal'Cie makes it a lot easier to understand that he's trying to ape his 'parent' to get her attention someday. Makes better sense than him being a random god that just showed up one day to take a bite out of Pulse to spite the Maker who would probably be his equal anyway. Why would Lindzei even care, if he were a separate entity from Bart, and why would he have created Bart as a Cocoon fal'Cie capable of undoing all of his work? Question: Why is it that Barthandelus acting on his own and being ambiguously evil and genocidal makes sense to you despite him seemingly-suddenly appearing at chapter 9, but connecting him to Lindzei (making his plan older than Cocoon dirt) doesn't? The two plots are still not mutually exclusive. The problem (and the solution) is right below this: Not all of the Analects are truth, but they're not all lies either. The Analects are told by Pulsians with what they know, or think they know. For Analect 8, they say Lindzei disappeared. Fine, expect Bart being Lindzei and being perfectly capable of casting an illusion to pose as someone or something else eliminates the need to orphan his own creations for some unexplained reason, only to come back for another equally unexplained reason. The answer is in your entry: Bart/Lin basically is a mixture of Satan and Loki. His disappearance according to Analect 8 could very well be a reference to [variation of] the saying "the devil's best trick is to persuade you that he doesn't exist". Lindzei as Bart would basically have done the same thing then, by convincing the Pulsians that he'd left when he was really overseeing Cocoon in typical devious god fashion. The "fal'Cie smoke and mirrors" ability of his isn't just for the plot as we're playing it. Lastly, the Succubus thing, as I just understood it while looking for the saying, the short story it was in by the poet Baudelaire had him referring to the devil as a he except for one moment in which 'he' is referred to as 'she'. Thought that needed to be put there.
    • If the analects are all just Pulsian propaganda, though, then they just seem to make this whole backstory complicated and convoluted and confusing.
      • Well yeah sure, of course it is, if you're speaking in absolutes. The Analects aren't an 'All or Nothing' deal, there's truth somewhere in the Pulsian propaganda.
    • This is how I understood it: there are AT LEAST three gods, Pulse, Lindzei, and Etro. Pulse created the world and made both humans and fal'Cie. Etro is the goddess of death, and her influence is directly felt in the game storyline a number of times: she helped stop Fang from completely destroying Cocoon (possibly by waking her mental conscious, allowing her to hold herself back--thus the white brand), she turned the party back into humans after Orphan turned them Cie'th, and she might have woken the party, Serah, and Dajh from crystal stasis at the end. She's more of a kindly, sympathetic death goddess than a figure of doom and gloom. Lindzei created Cocoon and fal'Cie of his own to house and protect humans, because he wasn't cool with the whole "survival of the fittest" thing Pulse had let go on on Gran Pulse. Then the gods put the fal'Cie in charge and left the world. The Pulse fal'Cie started to go a little crazy from being stuck on their own with just one set duty per fal'Cie, and they started giving out more and more bizarre and obscure Focuses, which only made more people want to move to Cocoon. The war started partly because of suspicion and partly because the Cocoon fal'Cie were literally ripping up chunks of Pulse to build Cocoon. Then the Cocoon fal'Cie hatched a plan to bring the gods (specifically the Maker) back by committing mass genocide.
    • This whole thing is really confusing, but we know there's at least two entities at work: Hallowed Pulse (a.k.a. The Maker), and Lindzei. I haven't read every single bit of lore, but the way I've most easily been able to swallow it is to buy that Bart isn't Lindzei, but is trying to bring him back. He's claiming he's trying to bring back Hallowed Pulse, but that's a lie, since damn near everything Bart says is a lie. Pulse fal'Cie know this, which is why they're trying to stop him. Otherwise, it would make no sense for them trying to prevent the return of their own god.
      • But keep in mind, this troper thinks Lindzei is the green eyed white faced winged thing attached to Orphan and a darkened Bart. It has a serpent-like tail and huge wings, and Lindzei starts out as a literal Smug Snake who gets more angelic looking in every battle. Did Bart know Lindzei was in the pool? Probably not. But the point is, my opinions on this are somewhat unorthodox, not the least since they probably directly conflict with some propaganda somewhere in the fiction.
    • The following material comes from the Final Fantasy Wiki:
      • Hallowed Pulse, Fell Lindzei and Etro are NOT gods. They are extremely powerful fal'Cie created by the God Buniberzei. Buniberzei searched for a way to the realm of the dead to find his mother Muin (who he had killed). Pulse had the Focus to create a world and find the way, while Lindzei had to protect Buniberzei's body and wake him when everything's ready. Etro had no Focus and got bored/lonely, so she made a reverse Assimilation Plot, sacrifizing herself to create humanity. Pulse created Pulse-fal'Cie to form the world. Lindzei created Cocoon and Cocoon-fal'Cie to protect humans. Humans saw Pulse as the creator of the world, Lindzei its protector and Etro a goddess of death. Also of note: The female half of Orphan's first form is how Barthandelus envisages Lindzei, but it is not his/her real form. (Lindzei's called he, but also "a Succubus" and there are statues in the Sanctum depicting it as a woman.)
      • This is my interpretation: Barthandelus is trying to fulfill Lindzei's focus of awakening Buniberzei.
        • Actually no, the maker they try to bring are "their" maker, which is Lindzei, Buniberzei was already sleep (who knows how long) when Lindzei created the Fal'cie. The Analects were written by pulsians's point of view so he it's called a succubus among other names. Also it could be that the statues and Bart's envision of Lindzei that he manifested in Orphan's first form could be simply symbolic of how he's their mother (maker).
  • Has it actually been confirmed that over half of the game's content was cut out or is that just a rumor being thrown around because some Play Station 3 fanboys are mad about the game also being on 360?
    • Half the game may be a stretch, but there was unquestionably a large amount cut.I won't say it was because of the Xbox port, and neither will SE, it could be for any number of reasons. Example: https://web.archive.org/web/20140802161302/http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/13/square-enix-cut-a-games-worth-of-content-from-final-fantasy-xii/
      • It turns out there once were many more labyrinthine paths and dungeons in Final Fantasy XIII, but they got cut. An interview (in Japanese) over at FF-Reunion with art director Isamu Kamikokuryou ("No you!" to his friends) has him saying that the team removed enough extra locations from the title to make up a whole other game entirely.
      • A labyrinth is not a maze, it is a path with no branches or dead ends that winds around until it reaches the end. Saying that "labyrinthine" areas were cut (if that is actually said, isn't the interview in Japanese?) sounds like it means that more of the same sort of area that was already in the game was cut. Enough to make a full game is a rather vague statement, as well. It could be hyperbole, or it could have been a really short game, or it could have been 60 hours worth of walking down the pretty tube some more. It's best just not to worry about it. The game is what it is.
      • Semantics. Ask a random person on the street what "labyrinthine" means and they'll probably say "maze-like" or something similar, since the popular conception is that "labyrinth" and "maze" are the same thing. Of course, we'd probably have to ask the guys at Squenix for further clarification on what they meant exactly.
      • Which would be pointless, since they didn't actually say "labyrinthine", seeing as they were speaking in Japanese. The only source that says that word is a brief article which does not clarify if the word came from a translation of the interview or was added by the writer.
  • Shouldn't Sazh's afro be full of bird crap?
    • I always thought the Chocobo Chick would have the decency to do his business outside of Sazh's hair...
  • And perhaps this is nitpicking here, but why are Barthandelus and Orphan the only fal'cie that show any sort of character? It's a little jarring when comparing them to others like Anima, who just seem like powerful monsters.
    • Aside from Eden and Titan, they're the only ones that can talk. Anima can't, nor can any other fal'Cie. They just slave away completing their Focus. That's why.
  • Also, why does Hope carry a boomerang, despite having no need for a weapon before the events of the game, unlike everyone else? Was he planning on hurting his father with it? A cool toy he bought in Bodhum? Is Cocoon more dangerous than it lets on? What's more, as Spoony himself pointed out, Hope is the group's resident Squishy Wizard--he does the most damage as a Ravager fighting with l'Cie magic and is not designed (physically or statistically) to be a physical fighter. And even then, he carries around Lightning's hunting knife for a good chunk of the game. That thing looked fairly deadly, even in Hope's awkward hands, so why couldn't he just use that?
    • The description implies that he's used it for amateur sport hunting.
  • If Cocoon is continent-sized, it should be a lot bigger in Gran Pulse's sky. It's maybe 10 km up at most, judging by the sequence where Our Heroes leave Cocoon by airship, but a small continent is roughly on the order of 1500-2000 km across--meaning Cocoon is at least 500 km in diameter. It should completely block out the sky most places anywhere near it--not to mention most of it should be reaching out of Gran Pulse's atmosphere... And that's not even taking into account the kind of gravitational effects an object the size of Cocoon would have on Gran Pulse by being as close to it as it is.
    • I'd always assumed that by "continent-sized" they meant Cocoon's total internal surface area, rather than its diameter.
  • And then there's the whole ending. Orphan is slain, releasing Cocoon to fall. It gains enough velocity this way to cause sufficient compression heating at its bottom to liquify large amounts of rock. Then it's abruptly stopped. Leaving aside that its next move should be to crumble around the support pillar, what happened to the folks on it? First, you're released to freefall, along with Cocoon itself - then it abruptly stops from a quite high velocity. Splat. And then there's what happens to those living on Cocoons upper hemisphere, who while this is happening have 'down' rearranged to point toward Pulse - i.e. what used to be up! Seems to me Barthandelus got his way after all!
    • The people were evacuated beforehand as Rosch ordered the PSICOM and Sanctum troops to stop hunting the l'Cie. Everyone was off of Cocoon by the time that started happening.
    • There isn't enough time to evacuate the whole population of Cocoon between those events. Do you really think tens of millions of people can be evacuated in a few hours?
    • Watch the ending again, and try not to miss the part where A) multiple arms of Ragnarok sprout from the lava and slow down Cocoon's fall before B) the pillar of crystal is formed to encase all of Cocoon and stop the descent entirely. Keep in mind that C) Cocoon wasn't suddenly flipped on its axis out of nowhere, and watch where D) the people of Cocoon and PSICOM troops are standing around on Pulse soil with airships all around them. Hell, there are still airships on their way down during the ending. Do you really think there weren't enough ships to get a sizeable amount out of the tens of millions of people on safe ground?
    • You're forgetting one crucial thing: It's a game and the evacuation can take as much or little time as the developers want it to.
    • Also, it's doubtful that all the fal'Cie died instantly when Orphan did. Even if the fal'Cie did wish to die and be free, they still had their Focus: to watch after and protect Cocoon. So it's highly likely that, during the fall, many of them used their last moments to protect the people of Cocoon however they could.
  • How come there's no survivors or corpse of those purged from Cocoon on Pulse?
    • ... Do you see how many monsters there are on Pulse? Why can't you just assume that the beasts ate the corpses and that's that?
    • It was my impression that nobody really went to Pulse; the "purged" people were just taken out back and killed. It's just more palatable for the public to believe that their friends and neighbors are simply being taken away. If the GC or PSICOM actually took a ship down to Pulse, the soldiers would have to be Purged as well because of their contact with the lower world. Also, if enough soldiers saw Pulse, word would eventually get out that maybe it's not so bad. The Purge was a relatively new program during the game, so it probably hadn't happened yet, but sooner or later it would.
    • The moment people from Bodhum started fighting back was the moment that PSICOM just dropped all pretenses of shipping people to Pulse and executed everybody in the Edge. The fact that they resisted was all the proof PSICOM needed that they were "corrupted" by the fal'Cie and execute everyone. There's a reason why the PSICOM troops roaming around the crystallized lake were specifying that they were hunting "Purge survivors."
  • Ragnarok form. You're handed Super Mode on a silver platter. WHY NOT USE IT? I mean, sure, don't want to destroy Cocoon. That's fine. But why not use it for all those other pesky situations where being Ragnarok would be really useful?
    • Because, as far as the party knew or was concerned, Ragnarok was an uncontrollable apocalypse. They couldn't possibly have used a nuke the same way you'd use a welding torch. The only time it became clear that Ragnarok WAS controllable or could be used for anything other than blowing up Cocoon was right at the very end.
    • If I recall correctly, there is absolutely no evidence of anything you just said.
      • I believe they use the term "unstoppable incarnation of wrath." Remember, these peoples' beliefs were spoon-fed to them; if they were told Pulse was hell, it's hell. If they're told Ragnarok's sole aim and purpose is to destroy Cocoon, why would they willingly invoke its power?
      • What about Vanille?
      • Let's remember that when Fang gets turned into Ragnarok it took serious emotional and physical damage, then she completely lost her shit and started attacking Orphan. Even if she could willingly become Ragnarok - the game's ending aside - she had no idea if she'd end up killing the rest of the party too.
  • If Anima felt it was appropriate to make Hope a l'Cie, why didn't Anima just immediately de-crystallize Serah with the focus too?
    • Motivation. It's easy to give up when you're only letting yourself down, but for Light, Snow, and Sazh, quitting means leaving a loved one behind to an unknown fate. But I know where you're coming from; I kept waiting for Hope to develop some sort of Magikarp Power.
  • It Just Bugs Me that you spend the entire game doing everything the Big Bad wants from you right up to that little bit where Ragnarok saves the people of Cocoon instead of finishing them off.
    • They don't have much of a choice: It's either do what he wants while they concoct a worthwhile counterplan, or be monsters while Bart spends another 100 years pulling up fal'Cie from the lowerworld and rounding up another half-dozen suckers to follow out the plan.
    • They captured the spirit of your stereotypical JRPG and applied it to the characters, who, like the helpless player, just move forward winning battles, accepting whatever storyline they get and moving on.
  • If Barthandalus wanted l'Cie to turn into Ragnarok, destroy Orphan, and bring back The Maker, why the hell didn't he make his own l'Cie and given them a very specific setup to make that their Focus? He could have just as easily set things up to give his chosen l'Cie no choice but to end the world in his fashion, without hoping that some random Pulse fal'Cie would give out that same Focus. Given that he could have just trained his chosen l'Cie against military beasts or wild beasts as needed, it seems like he put too much stock into whomever got appointed by Anima - and given how it's repeatedly pointed out in-game that Bart lies like a poorly-knit rug, we can't even be sure that the "destroy Cocoon" Focus was actually the one given (it just could have easily been "defeat Barthandalus' plans," which would have played out the same for all involved).
    • It is heavily implied that the will of the creator itself prevents Cocoon fal'Cie (and by extension, their l'Cie) from destroying their own creation. Some sort of mental block keeps them from doing it. This is probably why he just didn't tell Cid to drop a nuke on Eden or something. It has to be an opposing fal'Cie that does the deed, since presumably, they answer to a different set of "codes", and obviously, going downstairs and just asking them to isn't going to work in light of all the warring, hence the whole plan of pulling up dormant fal'Cie to curse some random suckers.
      • This still makes it a terrible plan - it's entirely dependant that the Pulse fal'Cie is going to give "destroy Cocoon" out as its Focus. For example, let's say that "defeat Barthandalus' plans" was the Focus in question. In regards to both the characters and Bart, nothing changes - they still do exactly what they do, he still lies about everything, and the Focus is just as fulfilled at the end. Great for the protagonists, but that basically means that Bart's plans are doomed to failure from the outset. His best case scenario is that he can trick them into doing what he wants and they go Cie'th because they screwed up what to do... and even that plan is heavily dependant on the characters not realizing that Bart lies so much. What bugs me isn't that Bart's plan is insane or evil... it's just incredibly stupid, by far the most stupid of any Final Fantasy villain.
      • Keep in mind what he has to work with. He can't directly attack Orphan or Cocoon; he has to rely on substitutes. Nor can he make those substitures himself; Cocoon I'cie are bound by the same rules as him. Only something opositional will work, like something from Pulse and he can't very well send a mission there. "Pulse is Hell" after all; no one would go there especially not to bring something back. After the War of Trangression, there are no more humans on Pulse and the Fal'Cie are more interested in terraforming than anything else. All he has to work with are the I'cie created by Anima, IE the main party, but they are not strong enough to defend Orphan who is compelled to defend himself for the same reason that Bart can not attack him; they cannot disobey their Focus of providing for Cocoon. So he sets up a game long gauntlet to toughen them up. After fighting him the first time, he decides they're still not strong enough so he sends them to the Arc to train, which the characters explicitly realize.
  • There are no 0s on the elevators in Taejin's Tower. The first floor is floor 111. What's up with that?
    • Pulsian culture probably used base 9, going from 1 to 9, instead of base 10.
  • So is it just none of our business concerning what happened to Lightning and Serah's parents? Or Sazh's wife? I was kind of interested in hearing more about them.
    • The game's not about them. Since they're dead years before it happens, yeah, they sorta don't matter at this point beyond how those deaths have already affected the characters.
    • It's never known what happen to Cloud's mother, it's never explained what happened to all the parents of Squall and his gang, it's just not important.
      • Actually, yeah, it kind of is. Cloud's mother was killed by Sephiroth and Laguna and Raine were Squall's parents (though the rest of the gang didn't have anything more specific said about their parents beyond Rinoa). But that doesn't change the validity of your point; those characters' loved ones sat outside the plot and died a long time ago. They're not relevant.
  • No, Hope, Snow didn't get your mother killed nor was he at fault for Serah becoming a l'Cie or Lightning getting involded. He dragged no one into anything. He only showed up to stop the purge. That he was unsuccessful lies with the military being better equipped than his team. If anything, Nora lived a little longer because of him since the soldiers were out to either recapture or kill the "purged". What bugs me about this one is that he forgives Snow, but its never implied that he admits he was wrong.
    • Actually, yes, he does openly and bluntly admit he was wrong. Listen better. 'I needed someone to blame.' And that's just one line of it. He knows he's wrong in his anger towards Snow, but he's a fraggin' kid who's been through hell. He's irrational.
    • Yes, it was irrational for Hope to be mad at Snow specifically, but keep in mind he's a teenage boy whose mother was violently killed right in front of him. Also, I believe he does say that Snow is just the most convenient outlet for his rage. And it's not so much that he thinks Snow "got her killed" but that he wasn't able to save her--and while Snow was trying to save people from the Purge, it was his leadership of the effort that led to Nora taking up arms. She could have stayed back with her kid instead.
      As for Lightning, she just doesn't like Snow, but loves her sister, so is prone to assuming that something that's gone wrong in her sister's life is somehow Snow's fault.
    • Hope also seems to ignore the fact that Nora voluntarily went with Snow, and then saved his life (again, out of her own volition), and that Snow was trying to save HER life right afterwards. It was probably a bit hard to tell for Hope with everything going on, but surely he saw Snow grabbing her and trying to stop her from falling. Even though Hope couldn't tell that she was the one who let go, it was still pretty obvious that he was trying to save her.
    • At one point Hope angrily asks Snow "How do you pay for your actions when your actions end up ruining someone else's life?" He's referring to himself, since he believes Snow is responsible for killing his mother. Did he convieniantly forget he wouldn't even have a life if not for Snow?
      • He's a teenage boy that's broken up about his mother dying right in front of him. Of course he's going to be irrational about it.
    • I kind of hate that he goes after Snow because he was there, plain and simple, I mean there were a lot of other people that were at fault, but he picked the guy that "tried" to save his mother.
      • In a way, this seems to be a large part of Snow's role in the group and a major personality point. He's a big doormat- he lets Lightening yell at, hit, and verbally abuse him. He lets Fang yell at, hit, and verbally abuse him. He is perfectly willing to take others anger onto himself, and just as willing to forgive and forget. I can count on one hand the number of times we see him react with anger to anyone outside of the antagonists. Even if he didn't blame himself, it's likely he would have allowed himself to become the target of Hope's anger.
        • Does the above mean that Snow's life has always been a continuous STEELGUARD!?
          • Actually, it is a moment of Fridge Brilliance in that. Snow's mechanical role is about the same as his storyline role. To shoulder as much crap and aggression to take the burden off others. Hope and Lightning were distraught and angry. They needed someone to blame. Snow allowed that someone to be him.
      • Major ditto to the first guy's point. Not only wasn't letting those people fight Snow's idea. It wasn't a BAD idea. There aren't only FOOT soldiers in there, there are a bunch of really powerful enemies, which can pick you off from the air, destroy the bridges you are trying to cross with one blast or BOTH. Forget being where Snow and Gadot were at that time. If you are anywhere on those bridges, you are NOT going to be safe. You want to get out of there as soon as you possibly can. And to do that, you have to clear the bridges really fast since you could only move along THOSE. The more people fighting, the faster the bridges will be cleared. I don't for the life of me, see how letting those people fight was an inconvinience to anyone.
  • Given that the L'Cie tattoo appears to be both the cause and effect of your death, why hasn't a single person thought of just amputating the infected limb or taking a knife and slicing it off? There is no indication that the brand isn't the sole origin of this curse nor is there any indication that it will reappear somewhere else on the body. Given the three other choices being hunted down by your country's entire military, being turned into a living crystal statue or being transformed into what is essentially a zombie, surely the loss of a limb or a chunk of flesh is actually a damn good deal. Now it could be argued that Lightning and her party are too headstrong to do this, but out of the few hundred L'Cie we see not one of them took the logical step of trying to destroy the brand? classic case of an Idiot Ball here.
    • Perhaps it would move?
    • It's not just the tattoo. The tattoo is just a mark that shows you're L'Cie, it's clearly the person's whole being that's affected.
    • A TATTOO? The Pulse brands showed the ability to glow with otherworldly light while suspending itself from their charge's body in addition to growing as time/stress increases. It'd come back.
    • A few people must have tried it in the past - whatever resulted is probably why nobody tries it now.
    • There are a lot of deformed Cie'th on Pulse. Who's to say that cutting your brand off doesn't accelerate the process?
    • From what I gathered, the brand is not so much the cause of your death, but rather the marker that indicates your state. The brand is there for the l'Cie's benefit to help them keep track of how long they have until they become Cie'th. Cutting off the part of your body that is branded won't stop you from becoming Cie'th, it will just mean you don't know how long until you become one.
  • So I can understand that Lightning wouldn't believe that Serah was turned into l'Cie, and she's probably even more disbelieving due to the whole Snow thing. So why didn't Serah just show her the l'Cie mark on her arm? Even Lightning wouldn't be able to dispute that.
    • Lightning's flashback to her birthday shows Serah did show her the brand at some point during the explanation, Lightning most likely dismissed it as a tatoo Serah got to try and sell her "story" better.
    • I noticed at the end of the flasback that the brand began to glow out of nowhere. How would Lightning interpret that? Normal tattoos don't do that.
  • Why did everyone decide to meet up at Hopes home they first time the returned to Cocoon? Okay so lightning was considering actually following through with her focus (which also bugs me, but lets forget that for now) and hope was joining her; but they decided not to follow through with their focus before any guards knew they were in Cocoon yet. Instead of turning and leaving they head into pulse to see Hope's father. Later when rescued by snow they once again decide to take a walk to Hope's house. Yes I know that it would be nice for Hope to meet his father, but remember that they are fighting and killing soldiers who were trying to protect Cocoon in order to make it to Hopes home. Is hope meeting his father worth the slaughter of dozens, of loyal guards, terrorizing the civilians, and risking the lives of all the l'cie? At one point hope even says to the citizens "were not your enemy" and all I can think is that considering the damage and death they just caused was YES YOU ARE!
    • The soldiers are trying to PURGE the citizens of Cocoon. To kill them. Lightning says that was the purpose of the Purge. But with the citizens there's a difference. They're waiting to take them to the train stations before they kill them. With our heroes, it's kill on sight.
    • Hope's home is a safe place where they can gather together and plan out their next move without getting constantly shot up in the street. When they first arrived in the city, their plan was to just get through town without raising an alarm and use the train to get to Eden, but the ambush int he plaza ruined that plan. Afterwards, they agreed to a rendevous at Hope's house because they needed a meeting place that was safe. Once they reunited on the rooftop, however, Snow was seriously injured so they had to take him someplace to patch up his wounds, and Hope's home is likelier to be safer than anywhere else.
  • When is it that in the scene in which they return to Cocoon after Oerba they make their appearance in a grand fashion involving attacking and killing Cocoon guards instead of trying to sneak in the same way Lightning and Hope had done previously? I mean I would understand if they didn't have time to sneak in, but they literally attack the Cocoon guards the second they show up. Did they forget they were trying to save the lives of people in Cocoon?
    • Remember that they came in with their Eidolons out and saved the racers that they inadvertantly knocked off the track, so the citizens of Cocoon probably thought it was part of the show. As Snow's waving to the crowd, the camera zooms in on his Pulse l'Cie mark, causing the citizens to panic and guards to swarm the racetrack.

Snow: "Probably should have covered that..."

  • When Hope is considering killing Snow why does he do it with the knife? Yes I understand that it's suppose to be symbolic, but lets not forget that hope is a magic wielding glass cannon with no strength while Snow is a tank. I have nothing wrong with keeping the knife as a symbol, but couldn't you have at least show Hope use some wind magic, the first spell he learns, to push Snow off the building after stabbing him or something? In fact the only instant of magic other then summons being shown in cut scene was actually from Snow. This seems a pointless example of story and game play separation that removes the watcher of the cut scene from any scene of absorption by having the characters not use the very skills they are defined by in combat.
    • Because learning magic is a product of player action rather than automatic plot, and as such if they had magic in cutscenes they'd be restricted to the rather unimpressive stuff the characters start out with or risk having characters using abilities they don't actually know.
      • Wait, so would that apply to items too? Because as of recently I was wondering why Snow didn't just use a healing potion or something on himself while he was carrying Hope home.. Hey wait a minute...Doesn't Hope use cure on FANG in the last chpater when everyone returns from their Cieth state?
    • There could also have been the motivation of wanting to kill Snow with his own hands. Using magic and all is like, "okay, cool, but it was the power of the l'Cie that did it." Hope using the knife to stab Snow in the throat? Much more personal and visceral. At least, that's how this troper interpreted it.
  • Here's another thing about Hope to bug people. As much as this troper adores the moe woobie that is Hope, I was thoroughly confused when he got his Eidolon. With the other characters, you saw their emotional distress that led to their Eidolons showing up. Hope? He goes offscreen for a while, and when he gets back he's somehow injured, and then he wants to get left behind. Did this troper miss a scene? Why did Hope want to get left behind? Was it because of his mysterious injury? Was it because he was regressing a bit emotionally and felt like the load? Not even the datalog could clear it up. Hope's obvious distress is what summoned Alexander, that part I get. The bit that bugs me is the CAUSE of that distress.
    • His brand suddenly progressed, which meant they were running out of time. He felt he wasn't helpful or strong enough and slowing down the others.
      • After all he is the youngest and weakest (story-wise) and got hurt as soon as he was alone, not to mention that lightning already told him he was holding her back before, that everyone pointed out that he was no match for Snow, plus when the brands had progressed so much he probably thought the others would had been already in Eden if it wasn't for him.
  • Here's something that's been bugging me lately. Back in the Vile peaks, Lightning says that she doesn't want Hope to follow her because "With me it'll be fight after fight". Won't that be the case REGARDLESS?? The Purge is still going on and I don't think that the Sanctum is going to stop trying to kill him just because he's a little boy ( because they had an even LITTLER boy on the purge train in the beginning of the game ). It's like, either he fights his way home, or he stays out in the wilderness where a monster or something could attack him anyway. Plus he's be ALONE! Not that I don't like Lightning, but it doesn't make much sense to me. Also, in the beginning of the game when Snow, Gadot and Lebreau try to lead the Purge fugitives out of the vile peaks and fail, how come everyone else died, but Snow and Gadot were barely hurt?
    • If Hope goes with Lightning, he'll be constantly in combat because Lightning has her course dead set on assaulting Eden and taking out the Sanctum. If he doesn't go with Lightning, he can avoid most of the enemy and eventually escape into a more civilized area where he can disappear. However, travelling with Lightning will ensure he will always be fighting Sanctum troops until they either wipe out the Sanctum government or get killed. If he doesn't follow Lightning, Hope at least has a chance of avoiding violence until his brand turns him into a Cie'th.
      • My problem is the place in which she ditched him. It was still chock full of enemies anyway, wasn't it? I think she should have waited longer to do that.
      • Lightning is not being entirely rational at that point. The fact that Odin shows up at that point is an indicator of her mental state.
  • If the entrance through the Vestige gates into the ruins was supposed to be forbidden, how come no one was gaurding it? Dajh and Serah managed to get in without a problem... I think I remember it being said that the gates were actually supposed to be a tourist attraction?? Who's to say that some more curious children wouldn't be tempted to go through the gates too?
    • Dajh never got close to the Vestige gates. Dajh was made a l'Cie by one of the Cocoon Fal'Cie in response to the attack by Vanille and Fang.
      • Oh. Okay. But then what about Serah?
      • That's explained in the Chapter Zero prologue. Apparently it was just inert / dormant for so long people just assumed it was a normal structure and it never showed any openings. It opened specifically for Serah in order to turn her into a l'Cie.
      • Oh. Okay. That makes sense. But why Serah? Sorry, it's been a while since I've read the novel, so I don't remember everything exactly. Is it because she was there when Fang and Vanille decided to enter the Vestige?
      • Fang and Vanille were in a completely different Vestige. They merely ended up in Bodhum. As to why it had to be Serah ... it was probably like with Dajh. The dormant fal'Cie suddenly reacted and branded the first one it got its hands on.
  • I'm completely aware that the Sanctum's true intention behind the purge was to kill off everyone. But why was the public buying it? I mean, as far as they knew, the purpose of the purge is to move every single person to Pulse. Wouldn't that just include people who could quite possibly be L'cie as well?
    • No, the Sanctum wasn't trying to kill off everyone. It was just Purging the populace of Bodhum at the start.
  • What's up with Lightning's badass soldier hard-as-nails persona? In modern real-world terms, she's a cop from Malibu, yet she acts like a Marine from Beirut. Is she just overcompensating for her lack of experience and being in over her head, or do the Guardian Corps give waaaaaay more training than is at all necessary?
    • The Guardian Corp is one of two branches of the military, so it makes sense that Lightning would have military training. You also have to consider that Lightning has been in said military for six years and probably received additional training. It is also hinted that she wasn't always patrolling Bodhum and that she used to go off on missions, suggesting that she has additional special training.
    • Bodhum's Guardian Corps are not an equivalent to Malibu police. They may be a civil police unit, but they are military, and Bodhum's units frequently get rotated into monster-killing duty. Generally speaking, the Sanctum's police forces appear to have equivalent training and equipment to modern military forces, and considering that they regularly have to deal with very powerful monsters and l'Cie, that's justified. Lightning is also explicitly described as being one of the best, and was about to receive officer training. Her attitude, skill, and training make sense in context.
  • Is it just me, or did the bridges and fighters in the Hanging edge with NORA keep popping in and out of nowhere?
    • Are you referring to draw distance?
  • What exactly happened when Snow and Serah were trying to get away from the Sanctum?? What was going on once they reached that pillar?
    • According to the datalog, they were trying to get Serah to the Pulse Fal'Cie so Serah could try to figure out her Focus.
  • Why did they call Lightning's Eidolon Odin? Given its elemental affinity--and Lightning's name--Raiden would've been more fitting. (Not to mention the added Shout-Out to FFVI)
    • Odin is a recognizable staple of the series, and Final Fantasy is all about callbacks to previous games. Also, if you want to think of it like this, Raiden and Odin were connected in FFVI, so it could still be construed as a reference.
    • Also, Odin is the Norse god of thunder and lightning.
      • No, that's Thor.
  • How did the ancient l'Cie's marks on Gran Pulse survive the 500+ years that have passed since the War of Transgression and extinction of Pulsian human civilization? It's understandable in case of the Undying and the robots that were built by ancient Pulsians, but what about the low-level organic monsters that are basically mincemeat for bigger and badder beasts?
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