Fallout: New Vegas/Headscratchers/Archive 1


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Caesar's Strategic Decisions

  • Caesar doesn't really live up to his namesake - at least in terms of tactical military genius. The NCR has deployed most of its forces and commanding officers - including General Oliver and Colonel Moore - to Hoover Dam, leaving their side of the Colorado dangerously undefended. Outside of the Dam area, the NCR armies are overstretched, lack proper equipment and are poorly trained. The Legion has already taken Nelson and Cottonwood Cove, and from these positions, it has been able to attack Camp Forlorn Hope, plant a dirty bomb in Camp Searchlight and raze Nipton to the ground. There is even a forward raiding position right next to the highway that connects New Vegas to California. Why doesn't Caesar simply ignore the Dam and cross the Colorado? Within days, the Legion would overrun Camp Forlorn Hope and Novac, and from there, they could seize Camp McCarran and Camp Golf and the Mojave Outpost. Without any supplies or instructions coming from California, Caesar could then wait out the NCR forces in the Dam until they were forced to make a break-out attempt, at which point they would be annihilated. Besides, Caesar is more interested in New Vegas than Hoover Dam, and he could let them rot for years while he annexed the rest of the country. You would think the Conqueror of 86 Tribes and the Son of Mars would know the importance of not letting yourself get bogged down over a prestige symbol, Stalingrad-style.
    • Logistics and strategy demand that Caesar take Hoover Dam. It's rather very simple: the Hoover Dam is important to Caesar because it acts as a bridge - over which you can supply your armies, and not because it generates power. This is a key factor in supplying an army as big as the Legion. Without the Dam, the Legion can only travel across the river in fairly rickety-looking rafts, running the risk of being sunk, drowning, not being able to carry much across, etc. The Courier even points out to Legate Lanius that the Legion would destroy itself trying to hold New Vegas, because New Vegas itself gets most of its supplies through trade with the NCR, and wouldn't be able to support the Legion's needs. As for the forward parties, they don't actually hold anything except small outposts at Nelson, Cottonwood Cove and the Searchlight Airport. Searchlight and Nipton are destroyed, with no Legion staying back to try and hold them.
      • The attacks against Camp Searchlight and Nipton are only small scale covert operation attacks carried out by a platoon at most. If you want to send in anymore troops to establish a full invasion, then you will need to have a way to maintain a steady supply line. Hoover Dam serves as a bridge that will be able to support a secure invasion.
      • The Colorado isn't exactly treacherous. At Cottonwood Cove, Caesar could simply move across his forces and supplies over the course of several days, and then begin the attack. The nearby Ranger outpost could be preemptively wiped out to keep the build-up secret; after all, there was no NCR response when Ranger Station Charlie was massacred by a Legion raid. And even if the NCR learns about it, what can they do? Camp Searchlight is irradiated and Nipton is a collection of burning ruins, so they lack a defensive position. Furthermore, NCR forces are already stretched as is, so the NCR leadership would have to relocate forces from the Dam - thus weakening its position. Considering General Oliver has so far displayed a total disregard for the rest of the Mojave and is fixated on holding Hoover Dam at all costs, such an event would be unlikely. Sure, the NCR would be able to muster up some troops, but nowhere near enough to hold back an assault. And the Courier was bluffing; New Vegas managed to survive by itself before the NCR arrived, and since Legion occupation strategy is essentially "kill pretty much everyone and enslave the rest", they wouldn't even need to worry about keeping the local population in check.
        • It's clear that the Courier is not bluffing, he's pointing out the logistics of supporting a city with very little hope of being self-sufficient in the middle of a desert (which is what Vegas always was). You're basically just ignoring the fact that New Vegas is now bloated with people, and wasn't exactly a paradise before the NCR and House showed up. Benny even tells you that things weren't great until House showed up. There's been attempts to help fix the place up a bit more and make it more self-sufficient, but there's issues. The nearby NCR sharecroppers are trying but aren't producing food because the groundwater is irradiated. And that's before all the tactical and strategic elements aren't taken into account. You're basically saying that the Legion can swim across the Colorado river over a matter of days (with Ranger Station Echo watching) and make a 40-mile march (the real world distance from most anywhere meaningful on the Colorado River to Las Vegas, compressed thanks to the game map) with armor and weapons, through a desert, on foot, and being mostly unopposed and undetected (which is completely unlikely). And that's after they destroyed the nearest settlements that might have the supplies they need as they go - as you said, Searchlight is irradiated, and Nipton's been burned to the ground. Who will carry the food and water? The troops? Not really, they'll need their strength to fight. Slaves, most likely, and if the Legion wants water and food of any meaningful amount, they'll need lots of it to maintain a working offensive. And I don't know if you noticed, but most slaves are overloaded and don't move very fast, so that's going to be slow going. The only forces you see west of the Colorado are small bands who can be self-sufficient because there's only a few of them. All this is academic, of course, if you're also assuming that Mr. House and his Securitrons are not a factor, nor any other factions, nor anything else that requires electricity is not used against the Legion in any way. All that considered, it would actually be smart to take over a bridge so you can just walk your supplies across instead of having to worry about all that other stuff.
        • Yes, it is a bluff. There's a reason why you need a high Speech skill to pull that one off. Do bear in mind that Mr. House took over New Vegas long before the NCR showed up, and it was perfectly self-sufficient. New Vegas' population is bloated mostly by NCR migrants, who would obviously flee to the West along with the NCR military. Those sharecroppers are there to produce food for the NCR, not New Vegas. And besides, it is made obvious in one of the endings that the Legion simply slaughters the population of New Vegas, anyway, so finding enough food to support them is irrelevant. As for getting troops across, you're missing the obvious fact that, in the final battle, the Legion are able to concurrently attack Camp Golf, Camp MacCarran and Camp Forlorn Hope, so they obviously have some method of swiftly transporting troops across the Colorado, since you don't see any build-up beforehand. As for logistical concerns, the Legion has more than enough slaves to carry supplies, and even if they didn't, they could simply sack everything between them and New Vegas to keep the army sustained. If the Legion had such massive logistical problems, they wouldn't have been able to move against Nevada in the first place.
        • Let's start with the 'high Speech' skill. It's the BARTER checks that remind Lanius that he nearly lost the battle of Denver because of logistics, and not Speech checks. Last I checked, Barter wasn't for bluffing. As for the other attacks, you're not seeing what's already there, again. "Don't see build-up"? There's much more than you seem to see. You're already forgetting that Camp MacCarran wasn't an assault by the Legion, but by the Fiends (It's all that's talked about in the Fiends' ending - they are allied with the Legion and are part of the offensive). The other two Camps are 'soft' targets, and it's very obvious where the troops came from, long before the Battle of Hoover Dam. Camp Forlorn Hope is situated right across a battlefield from Nelson. Nelson is FULL of Legion, and that's the whole point of the quests in that area. Camp Golf is where the under-performing troops in the area have been sent, including the Misfits. They even say, that despite being behind the front lines, they're still susceptible to sneak attack. If you do Boone's quest, the Legion is able to get across Lake Mead and strike at Bitter Springs with no problem (it helps that Camp Guardian has been wiped out) and so it would be easy for troops to cross Lake Mead from the Fort undetected - as they would have plenty of time and opportunity well before the Battle. It's not exactly 'rapid deployment' if they're already sighted in that direction before Hoover Dam, nor can it be a particularly large squad of Legion troops if the Misfits are able to turn the tide of battle. That said, why doesn't Caesar just send more troops north across the Lake? The Logistics and necessity of taking and holding Hoover Dam. Furthermore, Robert House has only been around for a total of seven years (2274 is when House recruits the Three Families and installs them in the casinos), and that's the same year that the NCR moves into Hoover Dam, and House arranges the trade agreement with the NCR. Before that? Vegas in fact was not particularly self-sufficient. New Vegas was a bunch of tribals living in the ruins without power or anything of value, hunting for scraps (verified by Benny and the other members of the Three Families and other citizens of New Vegas who existed before the NCR).
        • Also, it's an important long term goal against the NCR as well. Hoover Dam is one of the biggest power sources for the entire NCR region. (Obviously not the only one, but a large one.) Destroying that would be a major victory for the Legion in their quest to wipe out the NCR for good.
        • Hoover Dam is important as a matter of pride and not actual tactics. To General Oliver (NCR) despite being the man in charge is not respected, even his troops call him "General Wait-and-see." This has given him an inferiority complex and a burning desire to prove himself and overshadow his more competent subordinates like Chief Hanlon, who led the NCR to victory in the first battle. Hanlon, at first lost the Dam but won by staging a tactical retreat and luring the Legion in a booby-trapped city and having their officers sniped from a distance. As a result Oliver wants to prove that he is better and can do what Hanlon couldn't, beat the Legion at the Dam. For Caesar he wants to take the Dam because it was the location of his greatest and only defeat. Both could easily circumvent the Dam and besiege the other ones position. However, nether does it because there convinced that the battle must occur there.
        • There's a failure to understand the strategic importance of a river crossing. It is basic strategy to control bridges to ease the flow of supplies and troops and equipment from one side of a river to another, just look through history. As for Pride, the non-NCR endings can prove that Oliver is a soldier who does seek honor and glory and is willing to die for the NCR, but at the end of the day, he's not incompetent nor is he willing to throw away the lives of his soldiers just for victory. This is about the Hoover Dam, after all, it's the only working power generating facility that supplies as many people in California with power that isn't Gecko. And the First Battle of the Hoover Dam, the whole reason why Caesar attacked the Hoover Dam in the first place was because it's a major strategic asset and river crossing. If Caesar dies, Lanius attacks the bridge anyway, because he knows its the best way to attack New Vegas - he's not dumb. He knows it's strategically important. Look at history and look at how many battles have seen trying to control a bridge or a crossing as an important event. In the Vietnam War, the US bombed every bridge they could find in an effort to slow down the movement of supplies and troops, only to find out that the Vietnamese were rebuilding the bridges faster than they could be destroyed. In World War II, major battles were fought over bridges, so they could move troops and supplies and equipment across. The Entire point of Operation Market Garden was to capture as many bridges as possible to help speed along Allied advancement, and it failed because they were slowed down by the destruction of many, many bridges all across the area. And those are relatively modern wars where you could just bypass rivers by floating boats across or flying over them. Ancient battles would be fought over bridges and landings over water. You -HAVE- to control a secure crossing like a bridge or else you slow down and get stuck.
        • I understand your point and the value of Bridges. However, Caesar states his main objective is New Vegas, he is seeking a Rome for his Empire. It's very odd that since his defeat he hasn't developed any other transportation routes. In the four years he could have easily build a bridge or a port or something. He could have easily moved forces down from Utah and pressed downward. Furthermore Lake Mead is defended on two Ranger Stations, which are poorly defended and can easily be taken over. In the case of Ranger Station Charlie a single raiding party takes down the entire station. The fact that they routinely cross the Colorado means they must have a naval capacity. Caesar could easily have crossed Lake Mead circumvented the Dam, overwhelm the local forces and press right into Vegas. Or land on the other side of Hoover Dam and besiege the Dam from two sides. The Lake isn't mined and there would be no way to stop the landing. The fact that he's trying a frontal assault again, which failed the first time means it's a matter of Pride. As for Oliver he only surrenders when surrounded by hordes of Securitrons. In the Legion Ending you can get him to reveal he has a hidden tunnel and does sick waves of soldiers on you to die, presumably buying him time to escape. NCR masses it's forces at the dam as a posturing tactic. Placing your main base right next to your enemies is a strategic nightmare. Camp McCarran is much better fortified and farther away still the High Command and the majority of their forces are based with in striking distance of Legion Howlitzers. That's why I believe it's a matter of Pride not tactics.
          • Caesar, whose major holdings are in Arizona, hopes to take the dam for both matters of pride and convenience. However, any plan to build a reliable mode of transport across the river would have met fierce NCR resistance. House, who bid his time for ages, decided to gather up some tribes to act as his minions. He did this when he saw the NCR coming in. Aside from the robots taking care of it, New Vegas wasn't up and running until AFTER the NCR got there. As for Oliver... I took his opinion on the situation to heart.
          • Caesar states "All of Arizona and New Mexico most of Utah and Colorado are mine." Dead Sea the Commander of Nelson came from "The shores of the Great Salt Lake" and Vulpes Inculta is also from Utah. Given that both are in their twenties, it's an indication that the Legion has held it for some time. Yes their capital in Arizona, Flagstaff, and they did arise from there, but that's not their only location. With regards to force the major NCR locations on lake mead sans Hoover Dam are Bitter Springs, which is poorly defended and Ranger Stations Alpha and Beta which I stated before can be taken easily. The NCR concentrated it's forces at McCarran and Hoover Dam. The rest of the wasteland is barely defended. Second the Legion had infiltrated the NCR military and were fully aware of NCR troop movements and strength any serious attack they could avoid or better prepared for. The Legion could have concentrated it's forces there and besieged the dam. The only place of serious resistance would be Camp Golf. Finally your right about Vegas, except the appeal was it was a city that hadn't suffered any major nuclear damage an extreme rarity in the fallout world. My argument is given his options, that fact that he's repeating the same tactic, which not only failed, but one had had to have realized the NCR would be prepared for, means his motivation is pride. On Oliver, even in the House/Independent endings you have to meet a high speech/barter/science check to convince him to back off, otherwise he does attack you and is CUT down. Presumably after, the remaining NCR troops are attacked, meaning he throws away his men for nothing.
          • It's not about pride, it's about control, and it's simply an answer that no one is keeping in mind. Power and control of that power. What is Hoover Dam? It's the last major electrical generating station in Nevada, and provides most of the electricity in the NCR (no word on what happened to Gecko). The NCR needs it, that much is made clear. Oliver is basically sent to defend the Dam. It becomes clear that the Legion needs the Dam intact as well. Why would Caesar want a city of sin as his Rome without power? If he goes around and tries to conquer New Vegas without the Dam, the NCR could just pull the plug. The proof that the Legion is interested in having electricity is pretty obvious at HELIOS One. If you kill all the NCR by activating Archimedes' security protocol, guess who moves in afterwards? The Legion. Suppose everyone is right, and the Legion can just skip across Lake Mead or the Colorado with impunity in enough numbers to assault New Vegas itself, what prevents the NCR from just moving over and assaulting the Legate's Camp and the Fort while the Legion is buy trying to attack from behind? And if they don't? NCR troops can catch the Legion in a pincer between their two largest bases, right? Oliver fights tooth and claw for the Dam, because that's the power source of the NCR, and his duty as a soldier is in the defense of this one resource. Caesar obviously wants the Dam intact because he could just as easily sabotage the place with explosives (I mean, the frumentarii put bombs everywhere else but the generators), and the quickest way to get rid of the NCR is to blow the dam. Without the electricity, the NCR wouldn't stick around. But it seems, without the dam and its electricity, Caesar would have himself a Pyrrhic victory.
      • Wait, what? Caesar would be perfectly happy to have New Vegas' electricity shut off. He doesn't support technology, remember (except for technology that he uses himself and gives to his favored lieutenants; the main thing is that he doesn't want mass power given to everyone). So it doesn't make sense that he's taking the Dam to use it. I personally think that it's symbolic; the Dam falls, the Mojave falls. (And practically, if the dam falls, the NCR cuts bait and gets out of the Mojave.)
        • What he is against is the reliance on technology, not destroy it, but he's more than willing to use it for his own ends or to augment his goals, or prevent others from using theirs. As you note, he keeps some technology for himself (he's even armed with a fairly technical punching device). He has you destroy the robot army under his Fort because he doesn't want robots fighting a war of men, but he also keeps things like howitzers because it evens the playing field for him. He also has you ally the Boomers with him, who are only good to him for their firepower and technology. His Frumentarii are also trying to purchase energy weapons from the Van Graffs. The simple fact, again, is that he doesn't try to destroy the generators or the dam itself. Whether it's for the electricity, or that the dam is a bridge across the Colorado, he doesn't try to destroy the one thing that the NCR wants and needs and, if destroyed, would begin the end of all presence of the NCR in the Mojave. Caesar says it himself, New Vegas is his Rome, and the Colorado is his Rubicon. What good is taking and holding New Vegas to him and his Empire if the only reasons why you'd go there are eliminated? Just to defeat the NCR? Like I said, take away why the NCR fights, and you demolish their purpose, and weaken them so you can invade them with impunity. And again, if you kill all the NCR there, the Legion holds Helios-One, and they leave Fantastic to continue work on it (they kill Ignacio, on the other hand) - not something they'd let him continue if the Caesar's goal was to destroy all technology. He wants to control the dam. He wants to distribute the power as he sees fit. He doesn't have to share it with anyone, nor does he want to. It's his way of proving his ideology - taking away what the democracy of the NCR wants, and using it for what he wants.
        • Wow this is going into thread mode, I agree with the OP in that nether side really uses what they have. The NCR knows that the Legion in on the other side of the dam, there can even see them from Camp Guardian and they have Howlitzers. Why don't they just shell The Fort and the area to prevent built up. Also they have an Air Force, why don't they use it.The only reason the NCR hasn't attacked them outright is they are understaffed and under equipped. Also close quarter combat with the Legion is suicide. The Legion never crossed before the battle because they lacked the troops. Yet by the battle they had regained their strength. Caesar does not live up to his namesake because he ignores his tactical advantage. He under value the Frumentarii, he should have had them release Dirty Bombs and all major NCR Bases it would have crippled the NCR and the Legion would have won easy. He had strong holdings in Utah he should have grouped he forces near Lake Mead making the NCR think he was going to attack there. This would have left the dam understaffed he could have poured over it. He could have built a lot of boats an launched an attack across Lake Mead. He had many spies in the NCR hierarchy, near key military officials, he could have had them killed before the battle, crippling the military force. The fact that he committing the majority of his forces to repeating the same plan he already tried and LOST means its a matter of pride. While they did co-currently attack Camp Golf and Camp Forlorn Hope, the major force was attacked at the dam which was stupid. The NCR knew they were coming that way and had a history of booby trapping. In-fact it's possible to activate the turbines killing most of the advancing force. Yes bridges are vital to invasions and yes the fact that it's an important power source is important, to his plans afterwards but not to the battle. He had no contingency plans in case the NCR rigged it to explode. He should have assumed the NCR would have prepared something in case they lost. One could argue the brain tumor caused him to hold and Idiot Ball, but in reality he just want to win at the one place he failed. Thus he fails to live up to his namesake because he motivated by pride not tactics.
        • This again is not in keeping with the NCR - Hoover Dam is the NCR's entire reason for being in the Mojave at all, Vegas itself is just a byproduct of holding the Dam against the Legion. Many of their commanding officers - Colonel Moore and General Oliver both say the same thing: they are willing to lose New Vegas but not Hoover Dam. Camp McCarran is even secondary to the Dam. The military has no love for Mr. House or any of the residents of New Vegas. Remember this is an unpopular "foreign war" in the NCR, held together only because they have been successful in bringing electricity and water from Hoover Dam back home. If they lose the Dam, their interest in New Vegas vanishes practically overnight (Primm loses its protection if you had the NCR back the town, Vegas is abandoned, etc.), so it makes no sense for the NCR to booby trap the Dam. Destroying the Dam or the generators is definitely what Caesar should do if he just wants to get rid of the NCR, but that would also put himself at a loss because he will need the Dam if he wants to take Vegas. Vegas is Caesar's ultimate goal, and remember, he's not doing the same thing he did four years ago. He is attacking up front, but he's changed his tactics (or rather, Lanius has changed the tactics - Lanius seems to be a much more intelligent leader than his reputation implies), this is part of a plan that also calls upon simultaneous attacks on other outposts, and a sneak attack through the Dam's lower levels. While Joshua Graham was going to commit to a wholesale slaughter of his own men when he over committed and ran into the trap at Boulder City, Lanius is more cautious and is not willing to destroy this army if he senses or is alerted to a trap.
        • What I think you forgot is that both sides are - after all - dealing with limited ressources. So if Caesar wants to take an invasion route via Searchlight/Nipton, he has to pull off troops from Hoover Dam which in turn would free NCR ressources/soldiers to defend the southern portion. Due to logistical problems, as mentioned, that would probably turn out to be good for the NCR. Which leaves us with the possibility of bluffing - Caesar tries to convince the NCR that he changed his mind by invading the south to let them divert their troops and then launch a full scale attack on Hoover. Or hope that the NCR call his bluff when it isn't one and invade this way. He clearly holds the initiative, so he can try misleading the NCR. But if that goes pear shaped, he lost. So it's a matter of opinion whether gambling on a bluff is a strategic mistake. To put it shortly: status quo is a standoff, it's Caesar's decision whether to end it one way or the other with a gamble or wait, but he can lose as well, and easily.
        • Remember that the Legion has only been able to have the successes around Searchlight, Nipton, and Nelson because they've been operating covertly with small numbers of personnel; Nelson and Cottonwood Cove are their biggest strongholds, and those are honestly nowhere near as defended as they could have been, primarily because the Legion knows that it cannot hold territory anywhere near as well as it can take territory. Legion troops work best as light insurgents, hitting and running. If they assemble lots of troops around Cottonwood Cove or another landing point, that will be very noticeable. The sheer number of boats needed to support troop movement and logistics across the Colorado is going to draw attention, and the NCR is going to respond to such a large force with an overwhelming attack; the only reason they haven't retaken Nelson and pushed the Legion out of Cottonwood Cove is because those locations have such minimal strategic value compared with the Hoover Dam. And we know what happens when a large force is facing an attack while their backs are to the water. A concentrated Legion force moving across the river at any point other than the Dam is going to be attacked, trapped against the river, and destroyed.
    • As far as I'm concerned, Caesar stopped being a cunning strategist when A: you remember he is celebrated as the conqueror of 86 tribes, as in tribals, as most advanced tech owned by them was probably a sharp stick, meaning he goes straight from conquering borderline cavemen to launching a war against a close to modern army, and B: he actually use ressources to kill Kimball. Seriously, no, Kimball alive is borderline useless if not a near foil to the NCR war-effort. Kimball dead could be a martyr for the soldiers to assemble around and unite. House know that, and he is not a warlord, he is a buisenessman. If Caesar really wanted to hurt the leadership of the NCR army, he'd need to start picking off more minor leaders, the like of Hanlon, Moore or Hsu, which is exactly how the NCR beat Graham troops the first time.
      • A couple things wrong with that. Caesar is a cunning strategist -because- he is taking on a modernized army with little more than sharp sticks and simple firearms. It's a self-imposed limitation, and he makes up for it by training better soldiers. This goes back to parallels with the more technologically advanced Western armies taking on far-less advanced troops in various conflicts, and the more advanced armies losing. As for the NCR military leadership, there's a hierarchy. If Oliver dies, Moore is the one who takes his place, if Moore dies, someone else takes her place. As for the minor officers, like Hanlon and Hsu, that's what the Courier can do. The Courier can take the initiative and kill a lot of NCR officers. Caesar doesn't need to order the deaths of minor officers, he concerns himself with heads of state like House and Kimball.
      • Second, the Legion's failure at Hoover Dam is a result of a failed Zerg Rush, compounded by the loss of field officers being picked off by sniper fire. NCR doesn't fight the same way, even if it sounds like Oliver just wants to slug it out. For Caesar, Kimball is a far more valid target than the hundreds of "inferior" NCR officers who oppose Lanius (who is not repeating the tactics used by Graham - he is changing them, remember) at the Second Battle of Hoover Dam - Hanlon, Moore, and Oliver present or not. Kimball is the figurehead, a symbol for a nation that is fighting an unpopular war with his own people. Hanlon is an officer, not the one in charge of the defense the first time, but took up Command at the end. It was Graham's responsibility to handle that matter, and he failed at that. If Kimball dies at the place where he sent countless soldiers to die hundreds of miles from home, the repercussions back in NCR will be extraordinary, with the people of the NCR losing faith in the government and army and, thus, weakening the support and resolve for New Vegas' occupation. It's more of a political and ideological win for Caesar, showing that Caesar is both the god-king of the Legion whose ideals are superior and that the NCR is too weak to defend their leader.
      • I agree with the notion that Caesar's cunning doesn't extend to military strategy. As a general, he's no better than Oliver (motivated by a sense of pride and prestige rather than well thought out tactics). It's much more apparent in how he has been able to create an entire society which follows his ideals unquestioningly and fight a war against a 20th century era (in temrs of technology anyway) power using only 'sharpened sticks' as the above poster puts it. He's manipulative, but not as intelligent a tactician as he likes to think he is.
        • Tactics are the responsibility of Caesar's Legate. Joshua Graham was self-admittedly a terrible strategist and tactician, who mostly got by on sheer combat prowess and brutality. His job was originally just translating Caesar's orders (which worked while uniting the 86 tribes), before he took on more responsibility and started leading the troops into battle (the "up front" approach ended poorly for him at the First Battle of Hoover Dam). Lanius, on the other hand, seems to have a good grasp of warfare - his plan for the second Battle of Hoover Dam involves spreading out the NCR's defenses and attack in different areas like Camp McCarran, using artillery to soften up the NCR, and invading through the water ducts at the Dam. It's a good strategy, only affected by the Courier's involvement. Caesar's strategy of taking Hoover Dam is necessary, for the reasons already stated above - logistics and psychology.


The effects of killing Caesar

  • Murdering Caesar really doesn't have much of an effect on the game when i expected to get major brownie points with the rest of the non legion aligned Factions. Many armies held together by egotistical generals almost immediately fell apart when his legion which had a leadership designed specifically to work under him haven't caused it to fall apart.
    • Firstly, just because some armies fall apart once their leader dies, doesn't mean they all do.
      • Unless that leader is a charismatic military genius who created the entire Legion from the ground-up, and to whom the entire army were beholden to - as it is made clear that Legionnaires are more devoted to Caesar than his ideals. Caesar is to the Legion what Adolf Hitler was to the Nazi Party pre-1933 - the cement that held it together. At the very least, you would have thought his death would have caused the Legion to delay their assault on Hoover Dam, since launching a major military operation following a leadership crisis isn't exactly a good idea.
    • Presumably Legate Lanius took over whatever remnants of Caesar's Legion still existed, since you can't fight him until the end.
      • If you ask Legate about this when confronting him he will say something about how the Legion follows "Caesar's will" even if he is no longer alive.
    • Also, if you go Ides of March on Caesar with Boone and talk to him afterwards he says that NCR intel found out that Caesar established a full line of succession after his death.
      • Crap that's a lot smarter than I thought he was!
        • It really shouldn't be that surprising if you've talked to members of the Legion and especially to Caesar himself in any length. While their behavior bears more than a passing resemblance to the Raiders, they are probably closer to Ashur. They do NOT want to be just another petty warlordom springing out of the chaos: they want to be the ones to create the lasting civilization to reemerge from the nuclear war., and pretty much everything they do is geared towards achieving that. And considering the scope of this project, it isn't surprising that Caesar has set up his state with an eye towards long-running operation (including naturally orderly lines of succession).
        • It also helps that 'Caesar' itself is a title that gets passed down. Caesar was brilliant: he knew that Caesar's Legion will always need a Caesar, and also knew that he was ailing.
          • Isn't it a family name?
            • Caesar was a title and form of address for the Roman emperors. The German "Kaiser" and the Russian "Tsar" titles are derived from Caesar. Apparently it originally was named after Julius Caesar, though.
          • I posted that in my first playthrough where I went NCR.
        • Too bad the Legion is very brutal toward women, using them as nothing more than cattle.
    • Caesar wasn't commanding the Legion's military actions in the Mojave, Legate Lanius was. The battle plan didn't change with Caesar dead, the army was still there and Lanius was terrifying enough to keep it together. That said, with Caesar and Lanius dead and most of the forces they sent west routed, the Legion held lands to the east will probably fall into disarray rather quickly. Caesar's death is a big deal, it just doesn't resolve the rather pressing problem of thousands of dudes in red gearing up to mob the dam.
    • Some other characters in the game (House especially) mention that Caesar's death will have serious long-term consequences, most likely the complete destruction of the legion due to infighting and such, but in the short term not much will change. The Legion will keep going on momentum under Lanius' rule and will probably even fight harder than before, seeing victory as a way of honoring Caesar's memory, but once everything has died down (whether they win or lose) some factions will start making power grabs and so on. You can even see some potential foreshadowing for this with the captured Legion officer in McCarran; the Legion isn't nearly as unified as they want everyone to believe. That said, from an in-game point of view, basically nothing changes after killing Caesar and yes, it really is quite a let down (especially given the difficulty of doing it in the first place).
    • And besides, would Lanius really tell the rest of the Legion Hey, our god-king died. Sorry about that. Don't worry, I got this shit.. It's not unlikely to say that Lanius masked it from the rest of the Legion by saying that Caesar doesn't want to talk right now or something along those lines. At least until he gets crowned the new Caesar, it's probably smarter not to tell the rest of the Legion about it. I doubt they'd be happy.
      • Probably not, considering literally everyone in the Mojave, no matter what backwater, obscure little slum they live in, know about Ceasar's death the minute he dies. Not to mention the Legion member Karl (the one at the Khans camp) also knows about it, and says he'd attack you if you weren't on Khan soil.
    • Graham did think the death of Caesar would mean the end of the Legion, and since he is one of its founding member, I'd trust him that.
    • Yeah, I agree. There have been many governments and ruling powers that have established a line of succession, but that has never stopped countless wars over who takes the throne; we even have a whole trope for it. Besides, it's mentioned that ranks in the Legion is decided by strength rather than something more concrete than alliances or blood, where it's fully possible for one warrior to challenge another for his position. That is very shakey ground for a successful line of succession.


Benny's reasons for digging a grave after shooting the Courier

  • Why does Benny&co even bother to dig a grave for the Courier? A shoddy joke of a grave even. Were they fearing the CSI: New Vegas crew?
    • Benny has the Affably Evil persona down pat. Burying his enemies is just part of his faux-mob-chivalry style.
    • Part of his plan involved the disposing of evidence. He didn't want you reporting to Mr. House (as he stated in 'All Roads'), hence why he killed you, and burying you would buy him extra time to enact his plan. Leave your corpse, and House launches whatever contingency plan he might have because he knows someone has the chip. Bury you, and your arrival appears "delayed" for days, possibly weeks before House even suspects something is up.
      • It would've worked too, if House didn't have Victor follow you around in case such a thing happened.


Lack of romantic options with Veronica

  • Veronica doesn't have enough lines she was my absolute favorite character in the game and I even started over the game as a woman in the hope that she could become a romance option. Yet she doesn't say much stuff when you enter most regions and in general doesnt effect the game.
    • Heh. I wish Bioware handled the inter-character relationships in every game.
    • Veronica's a member of the Brotherhood of Steel initially, a group that very rarely attempts to have any significant influence on anyone unless it is to acquire technology. If you do her quest and have her leave the Brotherhood," you should know exactly why she doesn't have much influence over the game.
    • Bethesda appears to have a policy of no character love interests in their games, which contrasts to bio-ware's apparent policy of stuffing every game full of them. As Publishers I think Bethesda would have enough influence to keep romance down to a minimum, and heck in fallout 1 and 2 most relationships really didn't get much past the friends with benefits stage. So not having such an option would make a bit of sense given the companies and the franchise.
    • To be fair Knights of the Old Republic 2 also didn't have much of a romance option (Obsidian have better things to do than to make a "lights out" cutscene between you and your companion going at it and the companion making a comment on what happened last night between them, cue Boone musing about how you almost reminded him of his wife). Guess they don't want that to detract from the gameplay.
    • This is a post-apocalyptic, pessimistic, cynical game world where prostitution runs rampant almost everywhere. Virtually any quest revolving around two characters in love ends very poorly (though there are a handful of exceptions). It should not be that surprising they don't throw a happy love story with a companion into it. No matter what the setting, Bioware games tend to be overall optisimistic. Black Isle and Obsidian tend to be very dark humor oriented and love stories don't work in dark humor unless they get severely twisted in the process.
  • Umm is everyone forgetting that Christine from Dead Money is Veronica's soulmate and Veronicas still hurting from the breakup caused by Elijah's influence over Christine.
    • "Soulmate" is taking it a bit far; all we really learn is that they were romantically linked in the past.
      • Not even; it's never confirmed ingame that it was Veronica and Christine, just hinted at and implied.


Benny disappearing from the game after you freed him

  • Where the hell does Benny go after you free him from The Fort? I tracked this guy across the whole damn wasteland and now he just up and disappears?
    • Presumably he fled due to fear that Legion Assassins would hunt him down. Kinda shit, I wanted to rule side by side with the most awesome character in the game =<
    • I was disappointed, too. I had to reload three times before I successfully saw him safely out of the Fort. I was hoping he'd be somewhere, but nope. :(
    • It seems that when Bethseda makes WRPGs they have a habit of just disabling (PC Console Command) NPCs when you free them i.e The Survivors of Mothership Zeta.
    • What's worse is that he had offered to work with you, though he then sends his goons to kill you before fleeing. Especially after reading 'All Roads,' I wanted this awesome character to stick around.
      • Except Benny is both a compulsive liar and has the mindset of a child: he wants Vegas and he's not going to share it with anyone else, least of all you.
    • Originally, if you rescued Benny from The Fort, he would later ambush you in an attempt to steal back the Chip, and sneer at you about how being such a little goody two-shoes has finally come back to bite you on the ass.
    • Benny managed to either provoke or double cross most of the major factions, including his own Chairmen, at that point. It isn't shocking that he would choose to leave the area. Even if the Courier had forgiven him, it doesn't mean Legion, NCR, Mr. House, Chairmen, every other New Vegas family, the Great Khans, Mojave Express, and just about everyone else he came into contact with would probably want him dead.
  • Maybe this sets up for the next installment, it would be pretty neat to stumble onto Benny in some future game.
    • That's really doubtful. There is only one, highly specific way to prevent Benny from dying. Based on past history of canon endings, one of the steps required to be in the position to free him would be dodgy to have the Courier perform. If it ever gets acknowledged in canon, he is almost certainly going to be dead.


The source of bombs and fuel for the Boomer

  • Where did the Boomers get the bombs and fuel used at the end?
    • They built the bombs and the planes are nuclear powered.
      • The planes are not nuclear powered. They use alcohol for fuel, there's a still just by the workshop and museum.
        • That's not all; the sheds out in the cornfields have bio-diesel production plants.
      • Nellis is also an airfield. The bombs were already there. You can even see them when you're clearing out the ants. I imagine they also had fuel, too.
        • Everthing else in this setting is nuclear powered and the setting itself is very Atom Punk they very well could have a nuclear powered planes.
          • No, that's not true. That was a shoddy detail added by Bethesda because of Rule of Cool that only appears in Fallout 3 so they could use things like vertibirds and not explain the massive amounts of electricity in use. Virtually nothing in the other games is nuclear powered. It is not unrealistic for an airfield to have enough fuel to allow a bomber to fly a few times. There was also an active oil well until 39 years before New Vegas and there is some fuel stockpiling as a result. Vehicles are fuel powered or electrical. Power generation tends to favor renewable sources, but there is one nuclear power plant (Gecko) and the Vaults.
            • Objection. The car in Fallout 2 was nuclear. Not saying the bomber would be nuclear (that makes no sense), but Fallout was definitely Atom Punk from waaay back in the Black Isle era.
              • Objection Overruled. The Highwayman in Fallout 2 was Electric, as evidenced by the parts that you can acquire for the vehicle, as the materials you use to recharge the vehicle are used as batteries (either microfusion cells or small energy cells used to charge the engine) than nuclear fuel cells.
              • Further overruled. The Gecko plant proves how impractical nuclear power is within the Fallout world. The radiation levels are so high that only ghouls can be in close proximity to the plant and it is a significant danger to nearby settlements.
                • Lastly, the Great War was fought because over the last oil reserves on Earth (the whole of Operation Anchorage is because China invaded Alaska to take the oil pipeline). If oil wasn't the resource of choice for commercial and military vehicles, why are we supposed to believe China would invade the US for it when they could just build nuclear engines? They have nuclear capability afterall.
          • The B-29 Superfortress that the Boomers rebuilt was a World War 2-era bomber rebuilt and refitted with parts from a museum piece. As it's quite unlikely that a museum would keep a piece of history that's been heavily modified with modernized engines, the likelihood of the new engines being anything other than combustion dwindles quite rapidly.
          • Yes and no. Fallout is an alternate history line, so similar technologies are not required to have the same mechanics. However, vertibirds have combustion engines, so it is unlikely a Superfortress would have anything more advanced.
            • Definitely yes. Fallout's history diverges at the end of World War 2, which ends with the invention of the atomic bomb and the harnessing of nuclear energy (this much is even said during the introduction to Fallout). Again, the B-29 was designed as a combustion aircraft well ahead of the implementation of the atomic bomb. Remember that Fallout is based around the concept of what the Nuclear Age would have thought the future would look like. World War 2 is history for that era. And specifically, the "Lady in the Water" is most likely a -real- B-29 that crashed into Lake Mead.


Lack of romantic option with Arcade

  • It just bugs me that I'm totally in Arcade's Friend Zone. Prostitutes are all well and good, but a guy wants some stability. With someone who knows Latin. ;)
    • Prostitutes could be better for us, ah, Confirmed Bachelors. I don't find Santiago very fabulous, I gotta say.
      • Recruit Old Ben (by the North Strip Gate) instead. Much better.
      • Unfortunately, due to a bug, if you recruit Santiago before you recruit Old Ben, you are unable to use Old Ben's "services" or have any further dialogue with him. On top of that, you need to pass a Speech check for him. However, there is also Jimmy in Casa Madrid, whose an improvement over Santiago and will even give you a discount if you have the Confirmed Bachelor perk.
    • Same here with Veronica. Felicia Day as a companion? A gay companion? Aweso- oh wait, I'm in her friend zone. You're teasing me game, aren't you?
      • You want a leggy brunette, Veronica? But my courier is a leggy brunette! D:


Cleaning up the Lucky 38

  • I know it's a very careful, conscious visual design, but it just bugs me that everything is in such disarray. I went around the Lucky 38 putting all of the bottles and empty ashtrays into garbage cans. I suppose having to scrape by day to day means you're not overtly concerned with tidying up.
    • The lucky 38 is inexcusable but the rest is justified especially in houses there being an ashtray or two.
      • Maybe the Lucky 38 was closed and sealed up tight the morning the bomb fell, and stay that way until Victor unseal it. Much like the Sierra Madre, there was utterly no one in it to clean up the garbage.
      • Ashtrays were a bad example, but, like, the scads of papers on the floors. Why does no one put their bent cans into a waste basket. Come on, fellows. Pick up your trash. The first step to reclaiming the mantle of humanity is not living like animals... ;)
        • No, the first step is having reliable food, water, and shelter. Once we have dependable farms, clean water, and buildings that aren't going to collapse in a couple years, then we can start talking about trash etiquette. :P
          • Damn you for making so much sense. :P
          • But they do have dependable farms, clean water and buildings that aren't going to collapse in a couple of years.
          • Let's wait a couple of years and see if the buildings are still standing shall we? Besides, how about we try to survive against the deathclaws, raiders, cazadores, NCR & Legion, slavers and a lot more before we grab our brooms?


Why the Wild Card ending is considered to be the best outcome?

  • Why is the Wild Card Ending considered the best? The NCR ending seems perfectly equal to it, if not better in a few respects.
    • I'm guessing the idea that the Wild Card ending is "best" is someone's opinion masquerading as impartial fact. YMMV Trope and so on... it's a complicated story, I don't think there's any way to measure what outcomes are "best" in anything but the broadest terms, and that's all still subjective as hell.
      • But I think we can all agree on what is the worst ending. Victory for the Legion is pure Nightmare Fuel for everyone living in the region.
      • Wild Card is considered the best by many as it allows you to NOT have to be a Kingmaker for someone else. Especially refreshing after the railroaded ending of Fallout 3.
      • Well, if the normal Caesar is still alive, the Legion's rule is brutal, but it creates order. NCR becomes somewhat of an occupying force, and it's implied throughout the game that they're already overextended and thus need to tax the living hell out of their new territory. The Wild Card ending is the best provided you upgrade the Securitrons and make nice with most people. Otherwise, anarchy descends without the NCR MPs to help the Securitrons keep order.
        • Basically, my personal opinion on the gap between the NCR and Wild Card endings is not unlike the meeting of Garibaldi and Victor Emmanuale at the end of the Expedition of the Thousand, where Garibaldi turned over control of the conquered Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in order to pave the way for Italian unification, with the player naturally being Garibaldi. On one hand, handing power over to the NCR allows for it to continue expanding East and thus have a better possibility of reuniting the US into a functioning nation (and making New Vegas more sustainable by reorganization into the whole) run by fairly decent people on pretty damn good principles that often aren't implemented to the degree they should be at the cost of forfeiting your right to control it and guide its destiny. On the other hand, refusing to hand power and becoming the ruler of New Vegas means that control is now in your hands (for better or worse) to develop New Vegas as you see fit rather than in the hands of some fairly untrustworthy politicians and Bureaucrats on the coast at the cost of it being surrounded on all sides and now having to stand up and become sustainable on its own with threats on all sides. In the end, it really comes down (IMHO) to exactly how you think your character will govern and how New Vegas will fare in either case and how badly you want to see the US reunited.
    • The "best" ending is subjective, especially without a significantly longer epilogue of the events.
      • NCR is overall a fairly idealistic country with potential for unifying a large part, if not the entire, country under their rule. However, they are inefficient, overextended, and have some bureaucratic corruption.
      • Legion is incredibly pragmatic and has the best chance at unifying the country into a single, civilized society. Their brutality in the game is more to do with the fact they are attempting to integrate New Vegas into their society, which requires stamping out any other tribal or national identities in the process. Very brutal, but somewhat justifiable because the exact same strategy worked for Rome. It might be difficult to sympathize with them due to their tactics, but for the most part, they aren't as arbitrarily evil as most people seem to think.
            • As long as conquered peoples paid their taxes, the Roman Empire left conquered provinces largely to their own devices where customs and beliefs were concerned, as long as these practices didn't contravene Roman law. Caesar's Legion is taking it a step beyond, forcibly extinguishing local customs, languages, and so on. The Legion's platform is culturcide. The actual Roman Empire was more measured, inasmuch as they recognized the value of both the carrot and the stick, showed the people that they were better off under Roman rule, and let natural assimilation run its course. I don't disagree that there are many many shades of gray in this game, but drawing such an exact parallel whitewashes Ceasar's Legion a good deal.
              • Except the Roman Republic and Empire lasted for a long time and did not use the exact same standards for conquered people. Yes, in some situations, they left conquered provinces alone, but this was primarily pragmatic than policy. Those regions that were left alone were too far out there to be reliably supported in the event of a revolt. In addition, the Romans were very well known for committing genocide and culturcide. Caesar in particular is notable for using genocidal tactics, his campaign in France is particularly notable. The current French civilization has very little connection to the original inhabitants of that area.
              • Unless the Legate takes over who turns it into a "warrior's paradise" where only bloodthirsty warriors (unaddicted ones at least) prosper and survive. Compared to Caesar's rule, the Legate's conquest shows even less mercy.
      • House is pretty practical option. He'll keep New Vegas running, but has no other goals beyond that.
        • You might want to actually go through the conversation trees. House has extremely ambitious goals; he intends to use the tourist revenue of New Vegas to expand his infrastructure to research and build colony ships that will take the species off their nuclear-blasted, ruined homeworld. If you believe he can follow through, and if you believe him when he says he has no intention of oppressing the individuality of people, siding with him is a very attractive option indeed. He makes a very good argument against the NCR [paraphrased:] "If you want to see where democracy takes you, you need only look out the window."
          • Well, if you choose the ending, House ruthlessly oppresses the people of New Vegas. Anyone who expresses dissent mysteriously disappears and his Securitrons brutally suppress any organizations against House. Indeed, the best option seems to be the Courier taking over New Vegas, as with the upgraded army he maintains order after the NCR and the Legion are driven out and turns Vegas into a paragon of independent freedom in the Wastes.
      • Independent is potentially the best or worst option depending on the actions of the Courier during the game. The Courier is the only "faction" leader that can be completely evil (if the player chooses him to play in that manner), which means it is not automatically the best option.
      • Yeah, Independent seems to be the most role-play-ey option of the four. It really relies on the player to just imagine what they build as the future of New Vegas based on how they wanted the game to play out. So in theory, it could be the either the best or worst ending depending on your imagination.
        • There's only that little problem of Yes Man becoming more "assertive." So you've just put Vegas into the hands of a possibly psychopathic AI (remember how he never questioned the morality of your choices?). Yes Man is in control. You are not.
          • AI can go either way in Fallout, but I'd remind you that Yes Man is Yes Man. Question your choices? He keeps reminding you that he can't criticise you. That gives him something to be bitter about, though.
        • Well, this troper's courier has killed his far share of robots, one more? That'll be at best, a foot note.
        • You may be a level 50 {soon as the last two dlc are released} Courier but as Yes Man says if you talk to him about killing you and destroying him. his personality will move to another securitron even if you destroy one. say you maxed your science and try to write a virus to destroy him he can seriously screw you up if not with securitrons, self destruct sequences, or blowing up your dam.
        • There's also the implication that Yes Man is learning from the Courier. He goes along with whatever he's ordered to do, and in the end become more "assertive" - which is exactly what the wild card ending is about! The Courier is the goddamn mailman, yet you decide that the Platinum Chip falling into your hands(the ability to decide the fate of the Mojave) brings with it the right to use it to your ends. And when Yes Man discovers coding in the Lucky 38 databases granting him free will, he decides that that brings with it the right to use it to his own ends as well. Yes Man is following in the Courier's footsteps! If you're a vicious asshole in conquering New Vegas, Yes Man will continue in that vein, leading the Securitron army on a conquest of Earth. If you're pragmatic, just out to consolidate power for your own ends, Yes Man will turn New Vegas into a fortress town. But if you hold to "the ideals of independence" and go out of your way to save as many people as possible, Yes Man will maintain New Vegas as a utopia!
        • Word of God has now confirmed that the 'assertiveness upgrade' just means that Yes Man will only serve the courier, not just any shmuck that comes across him. So that means the future of the Mojave rests on just how good and competent the courier is. And if a player did everything they could to make the Mojave a better place, then who's to say that's not the best ending?
      • For the Mojave, anyway. One could argue that the NCR is in a better position to bring civilization and democracy (dysfunctional democracy, but still democracy) to other areas of the former US (including Arizona and Utah, should the Legion collapse)... but that doesn't the Mojave will be better off than in the Wild Card ending. Indeed, under the Courier the Mojave might be one of the most important areas of the former US, while in the NCR the Mojave would merely be one state amongst many (an important state, to be sure, but no more than Shady).
    • The Wild Card ending, I found a bit...contradictory, the first slides saying the Securitron MK 2 quickly put down the Chaos with minimum bloodshed, only to have the following saying the mess got worse than ever (Freeside, a safe haven!?). What.
      • The "Freeside a safe haven" thing is probably intended to suggest that NCR citizens are not looked on kindly in the rest of New Vegas (Freeside is pointed as a safe haven for NCR citizens, and only if the Kings and the NCR made peace), rather than Freeside being safe for average people, compared to the rest of New Vegas.
        • It's explicitly stated that NCR citizens are generally not welcome in other parts of New Vegas. For example, most folks who venture into Westside tend to disguise the fact that they're outsiders, for instance, as locals have had to protect themselves from outsiders, no thanks to the NCR or Mr. House. Stuff like that has lingering resentment. On the other hand, if the NCR and the Kings patch things up, it becomes a safe haven as NCR citiznes aren't targeted for violence by locals or vice versa. Nobody said an Independent New Vegas was a Happily Ever After situation, just the best they can do.
    • If you do all of the peace treaties with NCR, you do manage the get most of the tech-heads (including the Office of Science and Industry I suppose) in the Mojave under the same banner and cooperating (the Boomers doing trade, natch), and the Followers get security and resources to expand healthcare and education. Wildcard is Wildcard, though, so as far as we know Independent Vegas can end up anywhere.
    • Hell, that's pretty much the whole point; maybe the Mojave will prosper, maybe it will turn into a hellhole, but at least it has a chance to decide its own destiny rather than have it chosen for them.

Companions staring at you as you have sex with prostitutes.

  • Why are all of the companions creepy voyeurs; every time you hire a prostitute they just sort of stand there watching you. It creeps me out when I have Lily there. Couldn't they just wait outside?
    • Worse when you sleep with Sarah because the second you go past a certain spot it immediately stops you from being to influence the game.
    • You can just ask them to wait somewhere else, then go back and get them when you're finished, you know.
    • Eh at this point I don't stop them because it is hilarious to have all the companions in the game (I'm on PC and have a mod) standing there watching.
      • That and a voyeuristic Felicia Day is Fetish Fuel to the nth degree.


Lack of information about the other couriers.

  • Who is the person who turned down delivering the Platinum Chip once he saw the Courier's name on the list? Benny? No, why would he do that? Besides, he doesn't seem to actually know anything about you. House? But he only seems to take note of you after you manage to survive a gunshot to the head and tracking Benny all over the Mojave. Nash seems to think it's someone who knew the Courier beforehand.
    • Yeah, that thread is just left hanging at the end.
    • It is particularly bothersome if one happens to stumble across the "Canyon Wreckage" location west of Primm. Whole place is covered in graffiti directed at Courier Six (i.e. you). Set-up for some DLC? Holdover from a dropped plot line? In-universe example of Nothing Is Scarier, leaving the Courier wondering about some unknown element in the Wasteland that knew what was going to happen? Yes? Arggghh...
    • The Dead Money DLC heavily foreshadows two future DLC packs will address this very thing, right down to a Courier vs. Courier battle
    • Rumour has it that it was Ulysses, the cut companion.
    • It's DLC foreshadowing. If you look on one of the pieces of wreckage, you see 'Lonesome Road' written. Lonesome Road is the name of some upcoming DLC. In addition, there's also 'The Divide', which is mentioned several times in Dead Money.
    • It's now confirmed that Ulysses was the original Courier Six and that Lonesome Road resolves that.


The absence of an NCR run radio station.

  • We know from Fallout 2 that one of the reasons why the NCR managed to expand peacefully most of the time is because they have a very good propaganda department that wins over the hearts and mind of the population. And in New Vegas we can see that the NCR has nailed up propaganda posters all over the place so we can think that the republic plans to do the use the same trick to gain the support of the people in the Mojave Region. So why didn't they set up their own radio station in the area? Radio can be a very effective way to get the support of the locals and increase the moral of their troops. It isn't like that they lack the money or resources to do so, they can easily broadcast from one of their military base or their embassy. I can't think of a reason why they haven't done so.
    • Maybe they're not allowed to per their treaty with House? It would make sense, since House would logically forbid such a useful tool in their propaganda machine.
    • Yeah. House has near complete control of the Strip as is, and the NCR presence is only there because he allows it, and even then he forbids them to have weapons. Anything resembling laying the groundwork for a takeover would result in House giving them the boot.
    • If they ever decide to NCR Radio should have surfer music or something equally "Californian".


Why do people consider the Bitter Springs Massacre to be NCR's fault?

  • The entire situation with the Great Khans just bugs me a lot. I know the Bitter Springs Massacre is suppose to make us feel sorry for the Khans and question the NCR. But the Khans feel more like an Asshole Victim instead of victims of NCR rule. Just look at the Khan's actions in the older games. They are NOT good people! The Khans has been enemies of NCR before the republic was even founded. If it wasn't for the Vault Dweller's intervention in the first game, they would have wiped out the NCR in its early years. Even after the republic was founded, the Khan have spent years trying to overthrow their government and sabotage them from within. Sometime after Fallout 2, the NCR finally got strong enough to kick the Khans out of California and into Nevada. And what do the Khans do? They cry about how they were being 'oppressed' by the NCR. Seriously, do they expect a group of people that they have been repeatedly bullied and attacked for more then a century to treat them kindly?
    • After the NCR expansion reached Nevada, what was the Khan's first reaction? "So, the NCR is moving into the area, this is awesome! Lets rob, murder, pillage and rape their civilian settlers as they struggle to get a foothold. Just like we did in the good old days! On top of that, lets sell highly addictive drugs and make the wastelands an even worse place to live!" But to the Khans surprise, the NCR refused to just sit there and take it like they did back when they were still Shady Sands. They fought back and attack their main settlement. The battle resulted in the deaths of some of the Khan's children and elderly (Which was an accident that the NCR actually feels sorry about). And even if it was a deliberate attack, it was just like what the Khans has been doing to the NCR for more then a century.
    • Overall, the entire situation is a major Kick the Son of a Bitch moment for me. NCR's actions were at worst, an example of Pay Evil Unto Evil or to show us how Good Is Not Nice. But in no way were the Khans sympathetic at all.
    • The NCR's actions were regrettable, and disgusting if they were deliberate and not the result of miscommunication, but as for the Khans... The children were innocents and it's deplorable, but a society that lives by the sword, dies by the sword. Behave as the Khans do and they shouldn't be surprised when innocents get caught in the cross-fire. I don't feel zero sympathy for the Khans, but you can't make a decision to be raiders and thugs and cry foul over the consequences. Not much sympathy at all.
    • I think you're mistaking the fact that we have the option of hearing the Khans' side of the story for meaning we're supposed to feel bad for them. We're not supposed to feel anything in particular for anyone present. Yes, the Khans' feel wronged by what happened in Bitter Springs. That's because the people you're asking to tell you about Bitter Springs... are the Khans. They're not going to go, "Oh, yeah, we totally deserved that awful massacre because we're HORRIBLE ASSHATS. Have I told you how evil I am today?" Ask anyone involved in an event and his opinion will be biased by which side he's on. That doesn't mean you're supposed to agree with him. That's just his side.
    • Have you guys ever talked to a NCR official higher up about the Khans? They knew most of the Bitter Springs victims were innocents and ordered their troops to kill them all anyway.
      • That was Lee Oliver who is genuinely off his rocker.
      • The fact that it was a veritable war crime is only reinforced by people who aren't Khans showing hatred for the NCR after Bitter Springs (Manny mentions this). For most of the Wasteland, it was like the 'Battle' of Wounded Knee. It didn't matter if the Khans were a belligerent organization: the NCR still rolled into one of their biggest settlements and slaughtered it.
    • The Great Khans are a splinter faction of the original Khans, not the same group. Presumably the more belligerent ones would have joined the New Khans. Granted, they were by no means an innocent group, but they weren't as aggressive as the actual Khans either. So it can go either way.
      • On one hand, the NCR had no real way of differentiating between the Khans and Great Khans, so it is only natural they would try to wipe them out as soon as they could.
      • On the other hand, the Great Khans probably would not have attacked the NCR as a whole like the actual Khans. They relocated to Bitter Springs to get away from the NCR. It could be taken as a bit mean spirited to wipe them out at that point.
        • It's not mean-spirited, it's good tactics. When you finally have an enemy on the run to their safehold, you don't give them time to recover or regroup their forces, you take the chance to defeat them once and for all. And that worked well - except for the tragic discovery that kids where there.
    • Talk to Bitter-Root, a former Great Khan who was there at the time of the "battle", and he'll tell you that the group got what was coming to them, even if his adoptive father and everyone else thinks otherwise. Read from that what you will.
    • Granted I haven't played any of the previous Fallout games, but the Great Kahns...didn't actually seem that bad. They're not your usual raiders who kill you on sight for your 50 bottle caps and clothes. (If paid by Benny, but not for 50 caps and your clothes!) They're actually talk to you and civilly too. Yeah, their initiation ceremony is cruel, but Jerry is an example that it's not "Join Or Die". And Bitter Springs was a horrible event, the Mai Lai of the NCR that proved that thier faults were doing more than getting thier own troops killed, they were getting innocent civilians killed too. Talk to Jack and Diane, and you'll see a deep abiding love within the group.
      • Did you talk to the leader? He explicitly tells you they attacked the NCR as soon as they showed up near New Vegas. At best, they are Affably Evil about the situation.
        • True, but they've been driven out of the NCR before, they probably weren't interested in taken the NCR's new arrival sitting down.
        • But the reason why the Khans were driven out of the Republic was because they started the war on the NCR in the first place. They repeatedly attacked their original founding town, kidnapped and possibly tortured their most popular president when she was still a teenager, and even tried to over throw their government in its early years. So the NCR have ever reason to think that the Great Khans are no different from the original Khans. If they really want to change, couldn't they at lease send out an emissary to have peace negotiations with the NCR? But no, they just attack random NCR civilians the moment they showed up. Honestly, the Khans have no rights to cry about their brutal treatment anymore then ex-Nazis have about getting hunted down by the Mossad.
          • Actually, we don't know who really started the conflict between the Khans and the NCR as it predates either group. Both (Along with the Vipers and Jackals) are descended from different factions in the Vault 15 Civil War. Also your comment makes no sense. THE ORIGINAL KHANS WERE BAD SO THERE'S NO REASON TO THINK THE GREAT KHANS ARE DIFFERENT. Plus, I mean, Nazi War Criminals were alive when the holocaust happened. They were actually culpable. The current crop of Khans? Not so much.
            • The Nazi comparison is invalid. The Nazi's were always a minority in Germany. Virtually every war crime was exclusively committed by Nazi paramilitary and military groups, but some units never actually participated in them. The term "Nazi" can refer to non-combatants, but the German military was mostly made up of people who were not members of the party.
            • On the other hand, all the Great Khans are waving around the same logo as the original Khans, except they added the word "Great." They attacked the NCR as soon as they entered the area, which actually marked them as the most aggressive variant of the Khans from the point of view of the NCR (the original Khans weren't that aggressive and the New Khans spent a lot more time plotting rather than actually attacking).
            • Also, keep in mind that the Great Khans would still be culpable for their raids against NCR settlements, which means, they also almost definitely killed, murdered, raped and captured non-combatants and children.
            • And they have a trading alliance with the Fiends, ensuring that they can be drugged-up enough to commit all their horrible atrocities. Even Diane, who seems pretty okay, is upset that a horrible bastard like Motor-runner is dead because he was a great customer; nevermind that his Fiends slaughtered every innocent person in Vault 3.
    • The morality issue isn't that the NCR attacked the Khans in retaliation for the Khans attacking them, it's that they knowingly (well the people giving the orders knew, the ones actually carrying them out didn't know till it was to late) slaughtered innocent women and children while doing so.
      • During Boone's side quest, he points out what is actually kind of obvious in hindsight: the Great Khans are all combatants. They're trying to be a Proud Warrior Race - they only give someone a name after they've had a "beat down," they pick a fight with anyone they don't trade with, and their raiding parties have just as many women and boys as they have men. Just look at Bitter Root - he was a child at Bitter Springs, and had not only enough rage built up from his violent treatment to turn on his own parents, but the physical and psychological ability to kill them. A bunch of female and young-looking Khans running at you does not make you think "don't shoot," it makes you think "shoot faster."
    • Furthermore, if you talk to Bitter-Root, he will tell you that his father taught him how to shoot a gun via taking potshots at NCR civilians -- including children. Karma is a bitch?
    • Isn't it because the NCR is supposed to have the moral high ground, being the de facto "good" faction? I mean, yeah, it was possibly a big case of Kick the Son of a Bitch, but the "good guys" aren't supposed to cut civilians down in swathes, regardless of who they are.
  • I'd just like to add that If you don't remember any of the stuff from fallout 1 or 2 or tactics or vanburen or the bible or anywhere else involving the khans. The story has a familiar ring to it. Longhouse and teepees and an "evil" governmental organization bent on screwing them every which way but lose. When you hear stories about white men raping indian women and stealing their land and giving them diseases and such you start to see the great khans in a similar light especially considering the fact they are a tribe. and colonel moore says if you manage to ally them with ncr "And if we need to kick them out and take their land later" You really pity the great khans. This troper has native american/indian relatives but I remember that the khans and other groups were all from Vaults according to the intro. And why should we weep for them considering all the dead people who didn't make it into vaults
  • Also we probly shouldn't take Bitter-Root's words as 100% true, half the things he says comes form the fact that he had crappy parents and the fact that he keeps insistening the khans are to blame seems to be more of him trying to cope with the truma was seeing dozens of people being cut down and the fact he started killing them too. Look how messed up Chance, another Khan who was there, was. Also a few of you seem to forget that the Khans's arn't like the Raiders form Fallout 3 or the Fiends they don't rape and murder for the lulz for the most part they try to avoid needless killings (no one will trade with you). Which is why people, even members of the NCR don't seem to mind them that much. So in the end what really happen was the NRC shows up, the Khans start harassing there carvans who came too close to Britter-Spring in a "don't come here" matter and NRC goes "mess with us again will yeah?"
    • What are you talking about? You clearly didn't play this game well enough. NCR has always hated the Khans because they were drugged-up raiders who have always been historically vicious and brutal and hateful. Prior to the Bitter Springs massacre, way back in Fallout 1 - yes, the Khans were exactly like drugged up raiders, raping and pillaging. Fallout 2, even the survivors, the New Khans, were completely devoted to the idea of destroying the NCR over the destruction of the original Khans. Why do you think the Great Khans started attacking the NCR in the Mojave? The Great Khans had taken to raiding NCR outposts, and killing caravans, out of spite against them. The NCR attacked Bitter Springs as retaliation and to put an end to the raiding against the NCR. The -trauma- was for the NCR soldiers to open fire on women and children, who would be non-combatants in civilized conditions. The Great Khans are not civilized, and women and children would take shots at NCR women and children just as much as an adult male combatant.


The abuse that the FOA have to suffer through.

  • Can the Followers just not get a break? I mean at best they get to be an extension of the NCR's goodwill, one of the things they hoped to not be. Other options are an 'encouraged' withdraw by the NCR, a permitted retreat by Caesar, annihilation by the Legate, regulated by House, or swamped due to Independence. Not to mention how the Brotherhood slaughtered a group because Veronica DARED to leave, and how Benny exploited and used one of them to make Yes Man, the Kings treat them like an annoying little sibling, and the only people willing to help them are the Garrets who are pretty much part of the problem!
    • Nope. In Fallout, wry cynicism permeates every narrative thread. Blessed are the cheesemakers! No feel-good, Kumbaya Gene Roddenberry shit here. *sigh*
    • My problem is that the NCR had no fucking reason to push them around. They provide medical assistance and teach the people who live in your country and you don't even need to pay them so what do you do push them around.
      • I think it's an issue of loyalty, if the Followers decide to be good little NCR subjects and heal and teach who the NCR wants, then there's no problem. If they continue to stay neutral, and help anyone and everyone (For example, how they hook up with the Khans in the Northwest in one ending) then the NCR isn't going to want them around, plus let's not forget that Caesar was a Follower, maybe a little resentment there.
      • There's also the issue of the Followers obstinately demanding more independence for New Vegas, which they prioritize over anything else - even stability. Hell, one of the Followers even murders an NCR Corporal because he discovered that the Followers were re-routing NCR water supplies to Westside, which was undermining the NCR farms. The Followers and the NCR share a similar outlook; they'd get along fine if the former would just stop whining all the time.
      • On the contrary: if Caesar wins, he allows the Followers safe passage from New Vegas out of respect for his origins, even if they themselves are ashamed of having produced him. The NCR allows them to stay (maybe), and they do fairly well under the Wild Card ending if you upgrade the Securitrons to keep order.
      • And to be honest, the NCR offering an olive branch to the Followers is a sign of things getting better for them, with more resources means they will be able to do a lot more than usual. They can't expect to save the wasteland themselves but every bit of help is good for them. Even with strings attached.
    • The Followers' good ending (involving the NCR) is just bugged due to bad scripting. Kind of like Fallout 1 and 2! Thankfully, it's easy to fix.
    • It's not really just the Followers getting picked on. They are pretty much the definition of Good Is Dumb, taking absurd stands on issues on principle, no matter how obviously moronic it is. On top of that, Good Is Not Nice members are also rather common, which is really bad for a group that is primarily pacifist. This tends to make situations they get in worse. As a whole, the NCR isn't that much less idealistic than the Followers, since the FOA had a big impact on the founding principles of the NCR, but, and this is the reason the NCR does much better than the FOA, the NCR leaders are smart enough to realize when they need to be pragmatic about certain issues.
      • It shouldn't be surprising that using all their resources to fix short term issues ends up causing the group to fail over the long term.
        • The Followers are essentially most successful group in their field in the mainland of the NCR actually they are the group that trains almost all of the doctors in the entire NCR it just so happens that one mission is not to successful due to the war making it harder for them. How is that failing?
          • That's a not quite accurate assessment of that situation. They are training almost all of the doctors in the NCR, but virtually every doctor leaves the Followers immediately after they finish training. These doctors are in no way contributing to the Followers. At most, the Followers are partially successful because one of their goals is to help the wasteland, but their more important goal is to spread their ideals, which the doctors they train mostly do not.


The lack of option to unite Veronica with her lover.

  • Why couldn't you reunite Veronica and her nameless former lover or romanced her that would be a big crowning moment of heartwarming that as The Woobie she could sorely use.
      • Because she's in another state.
        • Not exactly...although she's not in the Mojave, but she's not one who will voice much of a complaint.
      • Actually, it's implied that her lover is Christine from the Dead Money DLC. However, since she chose to stay there, it's pretty unlikely that you'll ever get to reunite the two.
      • She was a brotherhood assassin, send in to kill Elijah, who Veronica considered a mentor figure, maybe Christine simply do not want to be reunited with Veronica, and that's before you factor in how messed up both the Think tanks and Dean Domino left her.
    • It bugs me that you couldn't even ask Christine about Veronica. You can connect the dots and figure out she had a lover in the BOS, so why couldn't you ask her? Even if she said she couldn't go back, for whatever reason, at least you'd know why.


The NCR Ranger Combat Armor.

  • So about that NCR Ranger Combat Armor. It's plastered all over the promotional material, it's on the cover of the game, it was even one of the first things you saw during the Teaser Trailer (aside from Victor and the city of New Vegas itself)!!! Obsidian MADE you want that armor, MADE you try to get it as one of the first things you did upon starting the game. But three things made it slightly not worth it: First, you couldn't get it until you were at least 17, because that's the level the only people wearing it (NCR Ranger Veterans) spawn. Second, said Veterans don't spawn until you've progressed significantly far in the Main Quest (long after you've finally visited the Strip). And third, wearing it counts as an NCR disguise, so you can't wear it all the time lest you have people shooting at you when you're trying to be allies. But still, it's not only the most powerful non-power-armor armor in the game, but it's also (arguably) the best-looking one, too. I just wish they could have made it easier to obtain.
    • There is another, easier way to get it. In Novac, there is a character called Ranger Andy in one of the bungalows. He sends you to check on a nearby ranger base which has been wiped out by the legion. You can find the armour on one of the corpses there. I don't think it's equipped, so that's why you missed it, if you did the quest.
      • the corpses are probably wiped clean by now in my game, but I'll keep that in mind.
      • Nope. You find Ranger Medium armor, or at least that's what this troper found. It's basically combat armor, but not the Badass Longcoat and riot gear that the promoted Ranger gear is.
        • Checked again. Shame on me...
    • The game has the player make their own character. What else were they supposed to use? It was either that or using Power Armor for yet another cover.
    • Also, contrary to popular belief, its not particularly useful armor. The higher mark Combat Armor provides equal to better protection and can be cheaply and easily repaired with requiring the Jury Rig perk.
      • It's not that the Veteran Armor is particularly good, it's that it's freakin' badass while providing a decent protection. The Veteran Ranger Armor's FO3 equivalent, the Regulator Duster, provided 10 less protection so it was rather Awesome Yet Impractical. The Regulator Duster returns in New Vegas, but unfortunately it has a DT of 0...
        • The NCR Ranger Armor definitely qualifies as Awesome but Impractical. It provides 2-4 more DT than high end light armor you can easily get before it even shows up, while having essentially the same effective weight as heavy armor or power armor (technically, they weigh more, but the +Strength most have increases carry weight). You could take light armor with barely a noticeable drop in DT, which is lighter and has special perks tied to it. Or you could get easier to find, more effective power armor. Even if you have to use medium armor, higher end combat armor has the same DT, is significantly lighter, easier to find, and much easier to repair without Jury Rigging. Oh, and all of those don't count as a disguise, so NPCs won't shoot you on the principle because "shoot person in NCR disguise" trumps your actual reputation.
          • I found the NCR Ranger Combat Armor to be Awesome Yet Practical. No light armor in the game comes close to providing as much protection except the Sierra Madre Armor, Reinforced, (18 DT compared to Ranger Combat Armor's 20), and your not likely to get that armor until near the end of the game since your likely at least level 20 by the time you start Dead Money. Also, it provides very high DT, so much so that Legion and raider enemies shooting you with anything smaller than an Anti-Material rifle pretty much do 20 % damage. It's pretty easy to find early even if you do side with the NCR (like I did). Take the Abilene Kid LE BB Gun. Go to Camp Forlorn Hope after destroying/activating the Securitron army. There should be 4 sniper nests scattered around the camp. Go in the nests. There should be an NCR Veteran Ranger in each one of them. Get behind the Ranger, crouch and move until 'hidden' (extremely easy), then shoot the NCR Ranger in the back of the head. Rinse and repeat for all four of the nests, and use the armor to repair each other. The Rangers also happen to have 150 .308 rounds (each), and all carry sniper rifles. So with one visit to Forlorn Hope, I had fully repaired NCR Ranger Combat Armor (the best non-powered armor in the game), 600 .308 rounds (also used by This Machine), which I had just gotten), and a fully repaired sniper rifle (essentially 3000 early caps). With the armor and This Machine, I just went around killing everything. It was really easy, I hardly took any damage. And yes, this combination looks awesome.
    • Another quicker and easier way to get the armor is to just power level your NCR rep as fast you can, once you hit idolized you get a key to the NCR safe house that has a set of the armor stashed in it.
      • There's (Or at least there should) be a trend here. Brotherhood Power Armor was the cover star of Fallout, and actual usable suits of that was rare. Enclave Power Armor was the cover star of Fallout 2, and actual usable suits of that was rare (Heck, if you had a fair amount of followers with you, some still had to put up with Advanced Brotherhood Power Armor while you and your bestest friends hogged the few suits of Enclave Mk.II). Tactics... Well, the trend falls apart here to the point where everybody and their dogs had their own family set of Power Armor in the closet (I couldn't have been the only one that reversed-pickpocketed the entire Lyons squad with Hellfire Armor for the assault of the purifier). Granted, NCR Ranger CA isn't Power Armor, but anything that makes a player pick up the box thinking "I want that" ought to be pretty damn rare.
    • One of your complaints is partially rectified in the Honest Hearts DLC. A personalized version worn by the Desert Rangers, the NCR Ranger's precursors, can be found in a cave near the Sorrow's camp. It has an arguably cooler reskinning, no faction affiliation, and is a couple of points higher in DT than the normal armor. It's still hard to get if you're underleveled, though.
      • Fully solved in The Lonesome Road -- full Riot Armor and helmet are available -- the stuff the NCR looted for designs.


Chief Hanlon's goal of sabotaging the defense of Hoover Dam.

  • Okay...so in 'Return to Sender' what exactly was the goal of Chief Hanlon? As far as I understood it, he thought that Gen. Oliver was a moron who's battle plan for the dam would get a lot of NCR soldiers killed. (True.) So, why exactly was he sending erroneous data to the NCR Ranger stations?
    • He thought that he could rattle things up to tip the scale of the fighting in someones favor.
      • He also thought that a drop in morale caused by the erroneous data would help convince the NCR to pull out of what he thought was a hopeless fight. If you let him continue, he ends up attempting to sabotage the Hoover Dam during the endgame to render it useless to the NCR.
    • I have to add onto this. Why the hell was his data so stupid and childish? Great Khans training deathclaws? Legion Super Mutants!? Who would believe this crap?
      • The Deathclaw remark was a reference to Fallout Tactics and wasn't meant to be believable. Legion Super Mutants Caesars Legion are huge fans of martial prowess Super Mutants are giant hulking monsters that could kill a man in a punch Caesar's Legion was never going on about purity just destroying the cultural identity thus they would probably become Elite Mooks for the legion if they joined.
    • I took the dialogue with him as an implication that he is both very tired of the war and not completely clear of mind. Heck, with his possible suicide in mind, and the fact that no speech option exist to convince him to stop the bullshit (it take the death of goddamn Caesar to do that), I believe he was in fact seriously depressive.


Arcade's combat lines

  • Petty petty petty but one of Arcade's combat lines is "I should have stayed in NCR" without an article and it hits my ear like a sledgehammer every time. "I should have stayed in the NCR", right? I mean, there are cases where one says, for example, "US" without a "the" but not in that construction. A lot of characters say "the NCR". But this is a small quibble and it's not grammatically incorrect, I guess, because geographic names and articles are governed by all sorts of precedents and vary from language to language anyway... It Just Bugs Me.
    • The capital of the NCR is simply called NCR in Fallout 2, and it's never referred to as Shady Sands by anyone else.


Lack of a flashlight.

  • I felt this in Fallout 3 as well, but...a flashlight, a flashlight, my kingdom for a flashlight. Or rather, my Pipboy for a flashlight. I died a solid three times of radiation poisoning in Vault 34, having depleted all my RadAway and even taken a few Rad-X, and was eventually reduced to running, howling with rage, through the vault, trying to find some way out through the already maze-like structure made all the worse by all the damn cave-ins. But worst of all was how dark it all was: the Pip Boy illuminated whatever was a few feet in front of me, which ended up inevitably being whatever wall or debris barrier I'd run into. I finally got out, with the contents of the armory, but Jesus H. Christ. It was a whole lot of Fake Difficulty along with a Dethroning Moment Of Suck that almost ruined the game for me. And all because the developers decided to irradiate the entirety of this pitch-black vault.
    • Did you try using your Pip-Boy map of the area?
    • Turn your TV/monitor brightness up a couple notches. Seriously, I had no trouble at all seeing in Vault 34, or in any other part of the game.
    • I didn't have a problem with the darkness either, though vault 34 was incredibly maze-like and confusing, and I don't even use my pip-boy light because it's annoyingly bright.
    • It's dark in that vault? I left my brightness and gamma on default settings and the entire inside had a lot of red light everywhere. If you have a problem seeing you might want to stock up on Cateye (or just turn up your damn brightness.)
    • you have a flashlight, just hold down your pip-boy button for a few seconds to turn it on.
    • Even limited to just the supplies in Vault 34, you should be able to last hours in the vault. Also "I went storming into the radiated vault without supplies" is a player created issue. You can clearly tell the Vault is irradiated even if you completely ignore the Geiger counter due to all those glowing barrels.
    • Also, you have the Pip Boy light, a perk that improves your vision in the dark (albeit you could only use it if you entered the vault at night), a drug that does the same thing, and several weapons with night vision scopes.
    • Pop a Catseye, or take the Friend of the Night perk. Problem solved.
      • And after Old World Blues, don ye old Hazmat Darklight Cowl.


No Legion/Khans friendly companions.

  • I was annoyed we didn't have a Legion friendly companion, a Khan/former Legion soldier who is now working with the player and has an amiable relationship with the Legion's soldiers and the only one who the Legate treats as an equal of sorts. The idea is that he is the only one who would benefit from a Legion Ending while suffering under House or NCR's rule of the wasteland. A bloody good shame. Hell we didn't get a Token Evil Teammate while we have a companion who gets pissed off if we have low karma. Why not a companion who won't join if you have high karma
    • Why can't it be a high karma member of the Legion who is incredibly cynical and believes Caesar is a better ruler than the NCR.
      • Most quests with the Legion involves massacres in some way, there is very little room except for the Courier to have a Legion member to be high Karma.
    • That would have been cool. Maybe a Legion member who you really, really impress once your standing with them is high enough, inspiring that fanatical loyalty that they have for their commanders. (Characterized nothing like the Biggest Fan dude from Oblivion of course.) You could have been given a kind of... honorary rank in the Legion. And this guy could have been your right-hand man or something, always ready to do whatever you commanded.
    • Apparently there was a Pro-Legion companion, Ulysses. He's on one of the cards coming with the Collectors Edition, and his suit is the same as other Legion members, though he was cut from the game for unknown reasons and may return in future DLC.
      • Other than sharing a suit with Legion, there is no indication he has even interacted with them, let alone is actually loyal to it. Legion is the most likely antagonist to the player. Ulysses is designed to be antagonistic to the player. That alone might be why they shared a suit.
      • Ah, cool. Hope he makes an appearance in some DLC.
      • As much evidence there is that Ulysses was Pro-Legion, I can't see it happening. He's extremely loyal and patriotic to pre-war America, not the Legion. Which could make him the survivor from Vault 11...
      • He's mentioned in Dead Money, where he's apparently something of The Rival/Arch Nemesis to The Courier. Honest Hearts hints that he's a member of the Frumentarii.
      • Word of God is he was the Legion-friendly companion, but they ended up having to cut him out. The recycled Ulysses of the DLCs... has another outlook on things, though he used to be a Frumentarius.
    • Or, perhaps a Legion deserter who's lost faith in the doctrine but feels like he has nowhere to go because he doesn't automatically believe non-Legion civilization is any better than he was taught, whose quest involves convincing him otherwise or, if you sided with the Legion, convincing him to go back and/or turning him in to be punished. Maybe a modder will see all these ideas...
      • Possibly someone who has been with The Legion for a long time, supporting Caesar, but has lost faith in them as they are becoming less focused on creating order and now instead causing more chaos. Perhaps a True Neutral character who believes that order must be created, but sees that The Legion are way too extreme and has since left.
        • Anyone fitting that description would be executed. Even minor infractions result in execution. Silus not killing himself immediately after being captured gets him executed.
        • Or Kicked Upstairs after being deemed "Too Bloodthirsty" by the Legate, seeing as someone trying to upstart him as a master of Atrocities as after he had single-handedly killed a village of tribals, he took his slow time to feast on their dead remain and then ordered several legionaries who did not achieve a single kill in their name to eat with him. A Legion Friendly Companion would have been someone who wanted to join the courier in a path of bloodlust and hopefully redeem himself in the eyes of Caesar by helping him do what Graham failed.
    • You know, I really thought Silus was leaning in this direction when I was interrogating him at Camp McCarran. (High INT, tricking him into thinking I was sent to assassinate him before he could talk.) He eventually shows some cracks in his devotion to Caesar (if not the Legion). It seems like a great jumping-off point for a mod or something.
    • Though you probably won't think it counts, my sister had what was sort of a legion companion...when you do the quest for the Kings that give Rex a new doggy brain, one of them that you can get (My sister's preferred choice, since it had the better effects) was Lupa's brain, and Lupa was a legion dog. So my sister had Rex following her around with a legion brain. This also did make her doing the legion ending easier on him...
      • As well as Raul who admits the Legion while brutal at least managed to maintain order where the NCR had failed to deal with the convicts. Lily would have been ideal for Legion players who wanted a Legate Legion.
    • It's been hinted at that Joshua Graham, Caesar's Legate before Lanius, could feature heavily in a future DLC. Maybe...
      • Except Joshua Graham in Van Buren (which still seems to be his current characterization) would be hated by Legion and the Khans. In Van Buren, you wouldn't even be able to interact with either faction with Graham in your party.
      • With the new DLC, it is safe to say Joshua is as anti-Legion as Boone was, hell he wants to disconnect himself almost completely with his past in the Legion. He thinks the NCR was better than the legion (not by a long shot, he finds the greed of NCR's citizens a problem and would start another war)
    • Rex was Caesar's old dog. It's more of a connection to the Legion then any other companion. And giving him Lupa's brain would be a bonus.


Gamblers at Old Mormon Fort

  • What are gamblers doing at the Followers' Mission? Have they lost all their chips and the keys to their hotel rooms, so they're crashing at the Old Mormon Fort? Do the Followers provide a 12-step program to break people of their dice addiction? I know the Followers are Wide Eyed Idealists who have love and a smile for all of God's shiny-coated creatures, but when you've got chem addicts and slaves limping in and gunshot victims littering the streets, it's odd that gamblers make up about 40% of the patients we see at the Mission.
    • Two words Gambling Addiction its a huge problem in modern Vegas and probably is a problem in New Vegas.
    • It's even funnier if you talk to one of them while they're sleeping in a tent and they still say that they're living the high life. If you say so, bud.
    • Aren't they just drunk or injured?
    • Perhaps because most of the people in New Vegas that needs help are gamblers that are down on their luck? And the FOA does have doctors that specializes in physiology.


Pistols being under powered

  • I understand stats are more important this time around, but why does it feel like pistols are so weak no matter what? I preferred them in Fallout 3, but this time it seems to force you to use nothing but rifles.
    • If this was a deliberate choice by the designers, I'd say it's for realism. In reality, it's pretty rare for a pistol to outclass a rifle in anything but portability. Old Military Proverb say, "A pistol is a weapon you use to fight your way back to your rifle." Another one, as far as accuracy and power goes, simply states, "Pistols are pistols, and rifles are rifles."
    • Outside the obvious, realistically pistols are inferior to rifles as a combat weapon, there is another issue with the complaint. There are numerous pistols in the game that outclass the vast majority of rifles. That's without factoring in the SMG's.
    • The latest patch balances some of them out a bit more. The whole idea was that pistols were weaker, but allow you to run at your full speed and maintain full mobility, while rifles and other two-handed weapons slow you down but are more powerful.


The real meaning behind Mr. House's comment on democracy.

  • House's line, as mentioned above, "If you want to see where democracy takes you, you need only look out the window." Fittingly cynical sentiment, but devoid of much actual substance. I thought it was, you know, the Great War that got Fallout 's world where it was. (A war fought because of a clash of both political and economic ideology, and the natural propensity of humans to engage in dick-waving competitions.) A more accurate summation would be something like "If you want to see where human nature takes you, you need only look out the window." Am I misinterpreting House? Perhaps he's talking about ... the fact that the Mojave is nominally under NCR control but still a mess?
    • House is actually talking about free-market economy, which pretty much goes hand-in-hand with democracy. The weakness of the free market is that while it allows for unfettered growth based on human ingenuity in both business practices and invention, you have to pretend that the non-renewable resources used to accomplish these things are unlimited (or you would have to deny growth in the name of conserving them) and hope technology will make it as such before they run out. If technology doesn't solve that problem, the inevitable result is conflict over those resources as they run out, and the Great War in Fallout is explicitly the final stage of a long and bloody resource war, as the intro to the very first game spells out. The timeline on the Fallout wiki also has quite a few bullet points about various dates where the world got worse in various places specifically because of resource shortages. We could have a long and bloody debate on whether or not this interpretation of how things work and will work in reality is actually valid or not (it's probably obvious at this point what my view is) but it doesn't really matter, it's what House believes; your choice is whether or not you agree with him on the subject.
    • I think it is highly unlikely that Mr. House was talking about free-market economy, he himself is a self-made capitalist and the free-market economy is the only reason why he managed to to achieve the wealth and influence that he has. Also, if he is against the free-market economy, then why did he govern New Vegas in a mostly Laissez-faire manner? He is actually talking about the pre-war US government. Which he sees as a system that can easily be taken over by extremist (the Enclave), extremely in effective, and cannot even control its own population (the riots and civil-disorder right before the Great War).
      • The problem is that he tells you to your face that he intends to rebuild civilization as an autocracy (this is actually the word he uses) that he can rule. We know he predicted the bombs falling with a 24 hour margin for error years before it happened; he planned to rebuild the world as such before it even ended in the first place. If he was ever a believer in capitalism, he simply changed his mind when he started seeing where the world was going and realized current methods of economics were to blame and methods of government did nothing but encourage it. If anything, capitalism was just a tool for him to get into a position (getting the needed resources, etc) to set his plan in motion. An autocracy under House wouldn't be a free-market, because he intends to specifically manipulate the economy so that he'll get the money and resources he needs to achieve his ends.
        • However, my point is that although democracy equals capitalism (or at lease the private ownership of property), capitalism does not equal democracy. For example, look at Singapore in real life. The Singaporean friends that this troper have once admitted that Singapore is more like a dictatorship then a real democratic republic. However, their economic system is in every way capitalist. My understanding of Mr. House's plans for New Vegas is like an extreme version of modern day Singapore. He and his inner circle (the Courier) will maintain absolute control over all military and and political matter, but the citizens will be allowed to have economic freedom, protection from the wasteland and social benefits as long as they pay their taxes and not become a political opponent to Mr. House. On a final note, assuming that the entire world got stuck in the 1950's way of thinking in the Fallout universe, then China never gone though the market reforms under Deng Xiaoping during the 1980's in Fallout's timeline. Therefore China was still operating under Maoism politically and have a centrally planed economy by the time the Resource War and the Great War took place. It seems like planed economy was just as responsible for the Great War as capitalism is.
    • Or another possible interpretation of the statement is that he is talking about the anarchistic state that most of the pre-war world is in. He might be one of those people that considers anarchy as the ultimate form of democracy. Therefore he sees the terrible living conditions that most people in the wasteland is having as 'proof' that anarchy (and by an extension, democracy) doesn't work.
    • There is also the NCR to consider, it's attempt to bring things like Democracy and order to the Mojave failed quite spectacularly. Unable to keep it's convicts in control as well as causing one PR disaster to another since Hoover Dam, this was proof House felt the Democracy was a failure. Even the Legion can maintain order back home while NCR is fighting a drawn out war against slavers and raiders.
    • A simpler explanation is that Mr. House, knowing that The Courier has no idea that by the time the Great War rolled around, the United States was pretty much a democracy in name only, with The Enclave running things behind the scenes. Mr. House, being the CEO of Rob Co, had to have at least known of The Enclave's existance, if not been one of it's many business affiliates. He doesn't actually believe democracy is what caused the war, he just lied to The Courier in order to get win him/her over.


Can't be friendly with the NCR in the Yes Man ending

  • I am disappointed that there wasn't more possible options for the Yes Man path. I feel that there should be an extra pro-NCR option in which you use your Mk. II Securitron army to help the NCR defend Hoover Dam and defeat the Legion. Afterwards, by using your new position as the ruler of New Vegas and the dominating military power in the area, you negotiate favorable terms of annexation for the Mojave and get yourself a sit in the NCR Congress. If you are a good karma character, you will introduce legislation that fights corruption in the Republic and eventually become the new president, bring a era of peace and prosperity to everyone. If you are a neutral character, you will keep things as they were and finally retiring from politics with lots of money and political connections. Finally, if you play as an evil SOB, then after a few years in the Congress you will start a coup d'etat and ruthlessly take control of the NCR, abolishing democracy and transforming it into a military dictatorship.It just feels much more satisfying if you can make a large difference for not just the Mojave, but the entire West Coast in the end. Plus it just feels silly for a pro-NCR character to just leave the Mk. II securitrons in a basement instead of putting them to good use.
    • I know, after I did a whole bunch of NCR supportive side quests to the best of my ability (Everything at Camp McCarran, Camp Golf, and Forlorn Hope) I'm a little peeved as to why despite my good karma character, most of the NCR is forced out of New Vegas. Why can't I take control of New Vegas while still allowing the NCR to keep the power it has. Basically it'll be like the agreement they had with Mr. House, only with even more freedoms for them and their citizens. And if they ever think of trying to seize power from me, I'll have to remind them that I have control of a sizable, upgraded, army of killbots.
      • There's still room for these options in the future, just not under President Kimball's administration. This is also why the dialog for Mr. House and the NCR to remain friendly was probably removed. Mr. House says that the only reason why the NCR agreed to a treaty in the first place was to prevent adding another element to their fight with the Legion, with the idea that the NCR was willing to fight the Legion, but not willing to fight the Legion -AND- House's Securitrons. Otherwise, the NCR's administration would probably invent a reason for the NCR to simply try and take New Vegas by force. It's important to remember, even though you kick the NCR out of Hoover Dam, you can still tell General Oliver that you're willing to share the electricity and remain in a trading relationship. With your new position as leader of New Vegas and the Hoover Dam's electricity under your control, you now have the economic leverage to make the changes suggested in the original post, without the threat of military action from your robot army. Otherwise, what's preventing the NCR from saying you're a terrorist, too, and ordering another war and causing suffering for all?


The harsh treatment of Arcade for being born into the Enclave

  • In one ending, the Followers find out Arcade was once affiliated with the Enclave. So the Followers kick him out. Yeah, I'm sure they're just overrun with highly skilled doctors willing to hike it to the arse end of nowhere to live up to his knees in the dregs of society. Ungrateful bastards. I mean, dude makes it clear he never agreed with the Enclave. Navarro fell when he was quite young. It's like branding someone a Nazi and persecuting them for having been a (mandatory) member of the Hitler Youth in 1945. When they were like six. Now, I can see the NCR getting pissy about the Enclave armor, and the way their system works his incarceration was probably at least partially politically-motivated ... but the Followers? Jeez. They're apparently a bit Knight Templar, at least when it comes to self-policing.
    • This is mostly politics if the word got out that the followers allowed Ex-Enclave members to work for them the NCR would probably look very harshly on it. Think about it this way if you went to a hospital and you found out your doctor worked in a death camp would you not complain. Im not trying to invoke Godwin's Law im just saying its the same principal and the Enclave was inspired by the Nazis.
      • I understand what you're saying. No need to worry about Godwin's Law, the parallel is deliberate. :) My point was Arcade's situation is more analogous to the millions of German children who were members of the Hitler Youth, not someone who worked in a death camp. One of these ex-Hitler Youth is current Pope. However, you make a good point that the Followers would fall under intense NCR scrutiny. I'm not sure it's exactly justice that the Followers didn't keep it stumm, but, well, one can hardly fault transparency and honesty ... so many shades of grey, I guess!
      • What i had meant was that people would believe that if there is one then they could all be former Enclave members and thus paranoia would set in and they would be mistrusted.
      • And remember that despite being an independent organization, the Followers still needs the NCR's approval in order to operate. Their main headquarters is located in the LA Boneyard (a major city under NCR control) and if the NCR really wants to, they can just outlaw the FOA and force them underground.
        • That's interesting. I finished another play-through and went the NCR route, and at the end they forced the Followers out of the Old Mormon Fort and Freeside... but simultaneously the slide for the Kings told me that "The alliance between the NCR and the Kings blossomed into a full relief effort for the people." So the NCR is on the one hand telling the Followers to piss up a rope, and on the other is doing basically the same thing as the Followers with the help of the Kings. Who staunchly refuse to submit to NCR rule, according to the end roll. What is the NCR's problem with the Followers? You'd think The Kings + the NCR + the Followers == even better relief effort for the people, but no. *grows more confused every day*
        • That is just one of the bad endings for the FOA. There is a good ending for them in which the NCR allows them to stay in Vegas and provide aid to the poor in thanks for the medical aid they gave the NCR during the Battle at Hoover Dam.
        • Also there is a major difference in the two organizations. The Followers are a more established group with a long antagonistic relationship with the NCR. Whereas the Kings are based around the King. All they need to do is get into his good graces and there will win the hearts and minds of Freeside. So when the King dies, they will be able to slide into power effortlessly.
        • Look how much damage the Remnants are fully capable of doing when motivated. It isn't surprising most factions are very, very wary of them.


The Brotherhood not having an issue with a pro-NCR character

  • How come the Brotherhood of Steel doesn't have an issue with a pro-NCR character joining them? I understand that Hidden Valley was at a state of lockdown when you first arrive there, but after you complete the scouting missions for them they should be able to get some intel on your dealing in the wasteland. I was surprised that a hard-liner paladin didn't confront my pro-NCR character and say something like, "I found out that you have been working for and NCR and are best pals with them! How dare you work for our enemies! You must be a spy!"
    • Also, why didn't the NCR's network of informants catch wind of you working for the BOS? You might say that it is because they can't even get close to Hidden Valley, but they could somehow find out that you have been working for Yes Man. How does that work?
      • Er...Because you have your discussions with Yes Man right out in front of The Tops?
      • True. But the same can be said about you working with the Brotherhood. After all, wouldn't the NCR spies get curious about what you are doing around an area that have frequent reports of their scouts disappearing?
        • McNamara wanted an emissary someone who could put a good word out for the Brotherhood your better suited to the job when your in the NCR's good graces.
        • How about a hard-liner like Hardin? Why didn't he had an issue with you being good friends with the NCR? And why didn't the NCR have an issue with you working for the BOS before the peace treaty was negotiated?
          • A true hard-liner BOS like Hardin is not anti-NCR. He would be neutral. Hard liners don't care about other factions. Assuming the NCR-BOS war from Van Buren is canon, the Elder that started it is not a hard-liner.
          • You never say you are working for the NCR or BOS at any point in the dialogue. There is no reason either group could definitively identify you as working for either group. NCR scouts die if they go near the BOS. The BOS scouts are not keeping tabs on you.
          • If you where NCR faction armor into Hidden Valley, the Brotherhood will open fire on you. Vice-versa from Brotherhood Power Armor and NCR territory.
    • The Brotherhood doesn't have the NCR's massive network of informants. The NCR, meanwhile, really aren't that anal-retentive, at least at this point. If you're an individual mercenary (who happens to command a mid-range power equal to the Remnants or the Boomers; details details) who isn't actively stepping on NCR interests, the NCR won't care if you take jobs for the Brotherhood. Actively signing on with one side or the other and putting on their armor? Yeah, that marks you as an enemy.


Victor digging you out of the grave slowly.

  • In one of the teaser trailers, you see Victor digging you out...very slowly. Um, Victor, I don't mean to seem ungrateful for all you're doing, but I kind of need to breathe, you know? Also, when you return to your grave you see Victor dug a rectangular section of earth. Did he just dig around me while I was laying there is serious need of medical attention?
    • Maybe Victors AI has OCD syndrome and has to dig up the grave or else he thinks the fabric of the universe will be misaligned.
      • Point, I mean, he was programmed by someone based off Howard Hughes.
    • If you examine the gravesite more closely during the opening cutscene of the game, you can see a shovel. Presumably Mr. House contacted him and informed him that digging out the sand like that is not the best idea, so he got a shovel from the local store and dug him out with that.


Why did Caesar choses to name himself Caesar?

  • Why was Caesar called Caesar. Out of all the effective Roman leaders Caesar simply was the first with the best being arguably Trajan the third and last emperor to be Deified after death and the only emperor that later Christians agreed was just as good as the Romans thought he was.
    • Because Caesar is the single most recognizable figure in Roman history. Caesar has been the subject of numerous works (including a Shakespeare play), he wrote a few things himself (beginning Latin students often translate selections from his Commentaries), and his name is synonymous with authority all across Europe (every Roman emperor after Augustus added his name to their titles, and it has been adapted into multiple languages - kaiser, czar, etc.). By contrast, Trajan is known only by a small group of people and mainly remembered for putting an awesome column in the middle of a plaza in Rome. One might well make the comparison that although James K. Polk was the only U. S. President who actually accomplished everything he promised, everyone remembers George Washington because he was "the Father of His Country."
    • Caesar was probably just being used as his title.
    • Let's not forget that there isn't exactly a wealth of knowledge on the pre-war world left, either. Remember the museum in Rivet City and how the NPC running it honestly thought the Declaration of Independence was delivered by plane? Knowledge about the Roman Empire post-war would be incomplete, at best. They could think Pompeii was abducted by aliens. The Legion isn't meant to accurately reflect the Roman Empire, just what they think the Roman Empire was.
      • Wait you mean Pompeii wasn't caused by Aliens?
      • That's certainly true for the rank and file Legionaries. Caesar himself, though, was educated by the Followers, who are headquartered in the LA Public Library. Presumably large portions of the collections there would have been lost during the initial disaster and in subsequent looting and such, but there's still a wealth of knowledge available. Caesar (and Arcade) are very well-versed in Roman history and know exactly what titles like "Caesar" and allusions to the Rubicon and the Roman Civil War mean, even if the everyday Legion troops and most other people wandering around the post-apocalypse don't. I agree that Caesar is probably sacrificing accuracy for convenience, though, with a side order of A God Am I. In answer to the original OP, he's using "Caesar" because it probably rings a bell in at least a few people's memories, and his goals are closest to those of Julius Caesar: unite a fractured society, quell chaos, and bring strength to a decayed body politic. At least, that's his story.
    • Becuase Caesar wasn't basing the name off Julius Caesar directly, but becuase Caesar was also a title given to the Roman Emperorers following Julius.
    • Or perhaps because just as Caesar (in-game) has subjected the tribes of Arizona and created the Legion, Caesar (Julius) subjected the tribes of Gaul and Caesar (Augustus) created the Empire.
    • I always took it as a sort of jokey reference to Caesar's Palace. Obviously, Obsidian took the idea and REALLY ran with it.
      • This is what I always suspected, other well-known casinos like The Sands and The Stratosphere are represented, it wouldn't be a stretch to say Caesar's Palace got represented in the most literal way imaginable.
    • Or he just liked the title Caesar, We don't know how much informaion the LA public library. Julius Caesar full name was Caius Iulius Caii filus Caii nepos Caesar Imperator/Gaius Julius Caesar son of Gaius, grandson of Gaius, Imperator. Caesar wasn't his title but his Cognomen, a second last name to identify which branch of the family. In this case the "Caesarian" branch of the Julius family. Also could have served as a nickname as Caeso was given to children born from Caesaran Sections. Another possible meaning is caesaries which means hairy. Anyway Imperator meant Emperor not Caesar. Caesar was part of his name as successors being relatives took the name Caesar and it eventually became a title. However it signified Heir not reigning emperors. So Caesar as a title is more akin to Prince than Emperor.
  • More or less, it's probably because the books Edward found included Julius Caesar's Commentarii. This led to him developing a massive hard-on for conquest.


Who are the "Battle Cattle"?

  • Ok, this one has kept me up at nights, had me playing for hours, and all around driven me crazy so I need to know! Exactly what are the "Battle Cattle"?
    • Brahmin.
    • They could also be the legion, since Tabitha also says to watch out for the "two-headed bear people".
      • Can't be the Legion, the NCR are the ones represented by a two-headed bear flag.
        • Legion's flag has a bull on it. If Tabitha is referring to the NCR by the animal on their flag, presumably she might do the same with the Legion.
          • It's almost certainly this.
    • Possibly the Bighorners?
    • Doesn't she out-right state that the 'battle cattle' are humans? Reprimanding the 'dumb dumbs' for running away from a human. The way I figured cattle is a term for humans and the battle cattle are the Brotherhood of Steel with their powerful weapons, and their power-armouring, and all the killing for technology.
      • Tabitha's broadcasts make mention of the 'two headed bear people astride battle cattle', so it's unlikely that it's humans. It's possibly NCR cavalry, as horses exist in the Fallout universe as evidenced in the canon comic "All Roads". Since Super Mutants may not have any experience with horses, they might mistake them for some strange one-headed variant of brahmin who are only ridden into battle. Of course, brahmin may be a much more likely candidate, with the attacks at the McBride farm being the work of a lone Nightkin who is killing Brahmin because his schizophrenia makes him believe the brahmin are working inside his head. This belief may extend to other nightkin like Tabitha. Again, crazy people thinking crazy isn't unheard of.


The differences between the NCR Rangers and Desert Rangers.

  • Can someone explain the difference between NCR Rangers and Desert Rangers? I mean, after their treaty did the Desert Rangers just become a higher rank unit in the Rangers or something?
    • They have been fighting for longer.
    • The Desert Rangers are an elite unit within the NCR Rangers (which is the elite of the NCR military). So basically Desert Rangers are the elites of the elites, the best of the best for the NCR army. Being in charge of the most dangerous or important missions.
    • Ok, I get it now. But does that mean that the Desert Rangers also answer to Chief Hanlon?
      • Chief Hanlon is the leader of all the rangers.
    • the original Desert Rangers were a seperate group of elite peacekeepers in the Mojave, after the unification treaty (the statues at the NCR camp in the SW of the map are commemorating it.) they became memebers of the NCR Rangers corp.
    • Additionally, the Desert Rangers (which pre-date the NCR) were first mentioned in Fallout1 by Tycho, and are a reference to a Vegas-based organisation in Fallout's spiritual predocessor, Wasteland.


Caesar's choice of his successors.

  • Caesar's taste in successors is a bit questionable. Why choose Lanius, a cruel and brutal man who does not really understand your higher goals, and generally behaves like the Stalin to your Lenin?
    • Asskicking Equals Authority?
    • You can ask Caesar this question in person. His answer is that Lanius only loyal to Caesar himself out of respect, and not loyal to the Legion. Meaning that Lanius is not afraid to sacrifice the lives of the Legionnaire to achieve what he thinks Caesar wants. Plus, he is an effective military leader.
    • This is exactly what Lenin did when selecting his successor. He supposedly chose Stalin over Trotsky because Stalin wasn't afraid to do what was neccesarry to get the job done. Trotsky on the other hand was too "bookish". I guess leaders believe that brute force is the only way to keep their subjects in line.
      • It would be exactly what Lenin did, except it wasn't. Far from choosing Stalin, Lenin warned the rest of the Soviet leadership about him in a will released after his death. Trotsky looked like he would easily replace him, but he was out-maneouvred by Stalin. And I don't see how anyone could describe Trotsky as "bookish"; he built up the Red Army from scratch, led the Bolsheviks to victory in the Russian Civil War and was generally ruthless and brilliant in equal measures.
    • He could be trying to pull a Tiberius he will be remembered as the best leader of the Legion ever because the person who came after him was so cruel that literally anyone could be a better ruler.
    • Lanius is much more intelligent than the legend spraid by the legion let think. It does take a lot a speech and barter to convince him to back down, but the mere fact that he respond to intelligent arguments, he is a far better strategist than Graham, know more logistics than Caesar, he is a more reasonnable military leader than Oliver. All in one, he is a perfect choice to keep the legion going in one piece.


The fan's real life hatedom against the NCR

  • Perhaps this is just another case of Ron the Death Eater for the fandom, but why is there so much hatred towards the NCR by gamers in real life? So far on the both the Bethsoft & NMA forums, I have seen lots of people hating the NCR for various reasons, some even go as far as to say that it is the 'worst possible ending' for the game if you let them win the war. Augments that bugs me the most is that some gamers actually consider crucifying prisoners and slavery for women to be morally identical (in some discussions that I have seen, some even go as far as to say that they are most preferable and morally justified) then having to pay the republic's taxes. Seriously, I understand that the point of the game is that it is mostly grey vs grey morality. But can these people actually can't tell the difference between being ruled by a social contract under a democratic republic compared to being ruled by fear by a madman that likes to play roman dress-up with this soldiers. I can understand why many people will prefer the Yes Man/Independent ending even though personally I don't like it as much. But how can anyone honestly look at the situation from an outsider's perspective and think that the Legion is morally identical or even superior to the NCR? A real life example I can think of is the World War 2. It is like someone saying that Nazi Germany is the same as the Allies. Although the allies did engaged in some really morally questionable actions, they are in no way morally identical to the Japanese Unit 731 or the Nazi death camps.
    • It's because Fan Dumb thinks that Mr. House's line "If you want to see how democracies end, look outside the window" is some profound wise insight on the world and how "benevolent" dictatorship is better than democracies, rather than a power-monger trying to justify his reign.
      • I take offense at this. The reason many people (the non-Fan Dumb of us, yes, we who actually analyze the entire situation instead of fixating on single quotable lines actually do exist) who go for the other endings hate the NCR isn't because the NCR has some sort of bad evil nasty side, it's because the NCR doesn't sell itself to us as the better alternative despite its problems. You can list what you think makes the NCR a better choice as much as you want, but the key phrase is "what you think." As much as everyone doesn't want this to be true so they can call their ending the best ending, the game is specifically written so that no faction can be objectively called absolutely better than the others. It's not just the leaders' arguments, there are little signs of this everywhere. This is why there's dialog about how despite the NCR being OMG SO EQUAL by treating women no differently than men compared to the Legion's misogyny, the Legion is more accepting of homosexuals. That's not in there just to give you the funny Confirmed Bachelor dialog with Major Knight. Even the Legion has certain appeal depending on your values; does absolute safety trump equality and cultural identity? If you think yes, you should side with the Legion. Does a future planned out for more than the next few decades based on what's good for everyone instead of on the interests of economic and political elite trump the fact that you can never be completely certain a benevolent dictator won't change his views or leave someone worse as a successor? If you think yes, you should side with House. Does democracy as we have it today trump the fact that there will always be corruption in such a government? If yes, you should side with the NCR. Do you not believe for a moment any of these have a truly positive outcome and only serve the interests of the elite? You should take the independent ending. Also, let's stop pretending and downplaying the fact that yes, every faction does have disadvantages. The Legion's are pretty obvious; slavery, misogyny, and death of cultural identity. The fact that the Legion isn't a popular choice means that most players aren't sold on the idea that their absolute security is worth that cost. House is a dictator; he severely punishes anyone who isn't loyal to him either directly or by proxy, like levying heavy taxes or land-grabbing on groups who sided with the NCR before they're kicked out. Independence causes stagnation; nothing will ever actually come of the Mojave wasteland, it will simply stay stuck as it is with the Courier in House's dictatorship position, without plans for the future. And yes, the NCR, despite it's democracy, does have corrupt and incompetent people in positions of authority, where their corruption and incompetence tangibly hurts others who don't deserve it. The game spells this out. The reason some of us explicitly dislike the NCR ending is that we do not believe the NCR's democracy is worth that, especially considering the pre-war American government. Actually taking the setting into account puts a bit of a different spin on the New Vegas-era NCR; not only are the not as pure of heart, relatively speaking, as they were when they were smaller circa Fallout 2, they show parallels with pre-war America. Again, you can believe that it will better police itself at some point or you can believe it's repeating history; the game gives absolutely no evidence either way, it's up to the individual to decide what they think is more likely. And this is also where the Fan Dumb comes from; it's part of popular culture in America right now to rage against the government, but being part of pop culture means that many people do so in completely uninformed fashion without educating themselves on the actual matters at hand. Plenty of people who do this play video games, and plenty of those play New Vegas, so their natural reaction to the presence of the NCR is to hate the government without actually examining the larger picture just like in real life. It's still Fan Dumb to point at the NCR and say "DEMOCRACY SO IT'S THE BEST okay there are some problems BUT THAT'S THE BEST OPTION AVAILABLE." There is no best option. There is simply an option.
      • TL;DR
      • (From the OP) The usual augments that I have encountered on forums against the NCR are basically the following: (1) They are only concerned about protecting/feeding/empowering their own citizens, (2) The heavy taxation that they collect from their citizens are no different from slavery, (3) The NCRCF is slavery, (4) They goal is to annex the whole area, which is the same as slavery, (5) Keeping all woman as slaves and crucifying your enemies is the most effective way to form a government in a post-war world, (6) In the Fallout universe, democracy resulted in the Great War, therefore the NCR is just going to repeat the same mistake, (7) They are too much like the Enclave.
      • (Also from the OP) In responds to those augments, (1) How is that a bad thing? It is the responsibility of any government to place the needs of their own citizens first before giving out free handouts to outsiders. The FOA is perfect deconstruction for an organization that give out free hand outs to random people, (2) Seriously? So you would prefer to live your live as a slave instead of paying taxes? I am not a fan of taxation myself, but that is just stupid, (3) The members of the Powder Gang are actually dangerous criminals that deserve their sentence. They are not political prisoners like the ones in the Gulag. Plus the just of convict labour is legal even under real life international law, (4) The NCR ending stated that they negotiated terms the annex the area. And they are not anymore of a police state then Mr. House or the Legion. Plus the NCR is actually a democracy, after the region is safe, they will likely allow the people of New Vegas to select elected representatives to join the NCR Congress. Plus in world full of raiders, mutant monsters, and that everyone can own laser weapons, is there anyway to have a functional government that isn't a semi police state? (5) Things such as slavery and sexism failed in the past for a reason, it is because they are NOT the values in which you should found your nation on. (6) Not it didn't. Post-war US was much more of a Fascist police state then a democratic republic. (7) The NCR never claimed to be the successor of the US government, nor did they committed any genocide.
      • It is really sad for me to see that people who consider the Yes Man/Independent, Mr. House, or Caesar's Legion path to be the ‘best’ ending for New Vegas so desperate to find reasons to hate the NCR. So far on the Bethesda and NMA forum I have seen people making claims about how the NCR being communist, or that they are secretly using slavery, or how they are worst then the Legion by collecting taxes, and my personal favorite, about how the NCR is bad because everyone should become tribal and return to nature… etc. Anything that ranges from examples of Did Not Do the Research to Blatant Lies. Can’t the NCR haters find any legitimate points to support their debates?
    • (Not the OP) I'd like to add that the NCR ending is potentially the only one that ends well for all factions. The good Yes Man ending comes close, but that ending still has the Brotherhood harassing travelers, and the FOA being overwhelmed.
    • Most people never played the original games, which means they are less familiar with the NCR. Also, many Fallout 3 fans are also Bethesda fans and Bethesda is very much oriented to "these are the good guys and these are the bad guys." Any moral gray area tends to make them think that group is bad guys.
    • I dislike the NCR, mostly because the parallels that the game loves to draw between it and the beginnings of the U.S. and how characters comment that they "round up tribals" and "domesticate them". It just reminds me waaaaay too much of how the original colonies "rounded up" the Native Americans and "domesticated" them. Also when you talk to one of the higher-ups at Bittersprings about the Khan killing refugees and you're snarky about the massacre there she says something akin to "yeah, well we *let* them have the area up by Red Rock" to which I really wanted to respond "oh really? You LET them? Truly, the NCR's generosity knows no bounds." I realize it's sort of irrational, but that's just how it feels to me. Also I wouldn't trust anyone who hired Fantastic.
      • Yes they WHERE being generous for not utterly destroying the force that had over multiple times raided their trade caravans disrupted army movements and tried to burn down their home city that is actually very very stupid they shouldnt hold any NCR territory after that kind of action. They also treat the Tribals they bring in pretty well as can be evidenced from the planned town in the original planned Fallout 3 where Arroyo and the Vault 13 residents peacefully joined together and became a thriving settlement in the republic.
      • Your Mileage May Vary, but I don't think the Great Khans should be punished for what their ancestors did.
      • Even then they are allied with a group that the NCR is at war with and supply groups that are trying to kill an entire city they probably shouldnt be allowed to stay where they are just for those two things.
      • Then again, they joined up with the Legion only after the Bitter Springs Massacre, probably to try and get revenge (And they clearly didn't know the Legion very well if they were unaware of the stuff they tend to do to tribals). Selling drugs to the Fiends could be justified since no one else seems willing to trade with the Khans.
        • Again they started the conflict when they where attacking caravans because they where undefended thus after the NCR crushed them at Bitter Springs and the Khans retreated to Red Rock they joined the Legion in the hopes of revenge. Unfortunately that limited the groups they trade to to being just legion allies which there are very few of. They are ore at fault for their own situation and even the Khans know it.
          • The NCR attacked Bitter Springs after the Khans attacked the caravans.
        • It's worth noting that originally the game was set up to have Play-After-MQ. The specifics of how whatever ending you chose played out would be seen in-game. All that really survives is a dialogue with Colonel Moore that serves as an exposition dump for what happens after an NCR Victory. Moore, if you remember, is the bloodthirsty, vindictive Colonel who sends you to massacre the Brotherhood of Steel and the Khans. You know, the one who gets Anderson sacked if you make peace with the Brotherhood? She's promoted to Brigadier-General and placed in charge of the occupation while Hsu, the only decent Officer in the entire Army, gets passed over for the position because of The Fiends (in the accessible dialogue it's because he refused to take credit for killing their leaders, which the Courier did). So the worst elements of the NCR are the ones that come out on top, just like in Fallout 2. Also, I think fewer people would side with Caesar if a cut dialogue with Arcade where he breaks down exactly what is wrong with Caesar's Hegelian view of history were left in the game.
        • If I remember well, it was reinstalled by one of the later patch.
        • The issue with the NCR isn't about good or evil it's that their ineffective. They have had control over the Mohave since 2274, the game occurs in 2281, and have not only failed to secure the region, nether economically nor literally but have failed to improve it in any way. They are over extended and don't even have the man power to reign in the Fiends, Powder Gangers or the Khans. Who due to said negligence have come to control the Western half of the Mohave. In Legion territory things are so secure that caravans don't even need guards. Yes there are reduced freedoms but the stability, considering how fractured the Mohave is, is worth it. Finally not everyone is a slave, Dale Barton for example is an independent trader, Raul lived in Arizona and frequent remarks on how the legion has improved it. Finally the Courier has a coin minted in his or her honor for their contributions. Slavery is an industry it only works if their are people to buy and sell. Women do get the short end of the stick but it's probably a status thing, I seriously doubt high ranking Legion members allow their daughters to be sold into slavery. The Legion has shown to work with women, dealing with Jeanne May Crawford and the Courier if female.
      • Safe is a relative term. Safe for Legion patrols? Sure. Safe for sell outs like Dale Barton? Sure (Sorry if I'm being overly opinionated here). Safe for the children and women, who have no rights what so ever, especially given that Siri and Melody imply rape and paedophilia are accepted practises? Not at all. Some may argue that the abuse of slaves is not standard Legion practise, but either way that kind of dooms them. On the one hand if they do not endorse rape then it shows they're no less immune to disobedience and corruption than NCR, and since Siri implies its a pretty common occurrence, we can assume they're no better at ensuring safety than NCR. If they do endorse it, well, bring back the Super Mutants and radiation poisoning.
      • The historical precedent for Roman stability is debatable as well. Surprisingly enough, Caesar somehow neglects to mention the emperors who burned down their capital city while playing the fiddle, made their horse co ruler of the largest empire in the world and were murdered by their own bodyguards. Hell, it took less than 3 centuries after Augustus for the Empire to split in two. Oh, and of course that General who declared himself dictator for life, only to be killed by his own followers. Now, if only I could remember his name...
        • You forget to mention that Julius Caesar was killed by upper class aristocrats who did not care about the Republic, but rather their own personal influence in the political scheme of things. (though Brutus could be an exception) Also the fiddle wasn't invented yet for Nero to play as Rome burned and also you combined him with Caligula. And 300 years is a pretty long time for an empire to last. Basically what Caesar is doing is creating his own intereptation of the Roman Empire by looking at the positives and rolling with that. Surely after he conquers all that is to conquer he has a plan to create his own Pax Roma which would probably relax the brutality of the years of conquest. (Not saying he is going to release the slaves, but maybe allow them chance for freedom. And also they may give women more rights and be less sexist)
      • Sorry about that, I did bugger up about the fiddle, though I already knew Nero and Caligula were different people. Besides, Nero was to busy dealing with revolts caused by his men buggering Boduica, starting a rebellion that lead to the burning of multiple cities.
          • While you make some points you rely far to much on maybes and surely's. While Nero did not play the lyre while Rome burned he certainly looked pretty suspicious when he took over all the burned land and made the worlds largest pleasure palace over the entirety of the burned ground. Also the goals of Caesars assassins are unknown his assassins did not write down their reasons and after Augustus took power the records on them are questionable at best. The Roman Empire existed for over a thousand years but was only stable for two hundred with occasional resurgences like the ones during rules of Basil The Bulgar Slayer and Justinian I. Caesar clearly does not know very much about the Empire though, seeing as he mistook it for Sparta.
      • Another issue is Casear himself. With Ashur I good buy the mean justify the ends line of thought since he is clearly a good man and will likely try to do the right thing. I don't totally agree with him since I can't see him keeping his raiders under control well enough to make them submit whaen he wants to change things, but overall he had an understandble postion. Casear on the other hand? He may not be a complete monster, but he sure as Hell ain't no anti villain. While Ashur was a good man trying to acheive alturistic goals with questionable means, Casear revels in the violence and pain he causes. If you ask him to relase Benny he'll actively scold you for lacking sadism (Apparently he won't even let you have a psotion of power unless your a blood hungry psycho) and after the execution he contemplates on how few things can compare to destroying an enemy. If you tell him your done working for him he'll threatean to chop you to pieces for his amusement. Just compare Ashur's anguish over what he had to do in the holotapes compared to Casear's sumg bragging about how he wiped out entire tribes. Frankly I can't see things getting any better under Casear, not only because of sheer logistics (he is after all, one of the more agreeable members of the Legion) but because he wouldn't want them to change. Under a guy like Casear, life would likely be every bit as harsh and painful as it is in the Wastes, but now it will be enforced by law. Ironically, Benny's words on NCR sum up Casear and his goons perfectly, 'They just pass laws to make their crimes legal.' maybe the ends justify the means, but even then you have to keep in mind just how it will end.
      • NCR's held down by all sorts of rules and limits, and even that doesn't act as a full proof net against corruption. Therefore, why should we expect the Legion rulers to be any better without any sort of limits or controls? After all, Centurion Aurellius's cannibalism, smoking and drinking (the latter two are against Legion principles) show they aren't immune to corruption, and given that their power cannot be contested unlike NCR, the risk of power abuse from the Legion is likely even worse. Raul's reliability is shaky at best. He's a loner who rarely interacts with the outside world, so he likely has very limited experience on how the Legion treats people, especially slaves and women in most situations. Moreover, he has reason to be biased in favour of them given their ruthless stance against the gangs. Given what said gangs they did to Claudia, the only person Raul had been close to in possibly centuries, we can see that he'd be quite likely to be biased in favour of the Legion.
          • The NCR are ineffective in the Mojave because they are overextended. They are far more effective within their actual territory, as shown in Fallout 2.
          • Most of their elite troops are kept at home to guard brahmins by the cattle-barons. It's like saying the USA only sent some poorly equiped infantry to invade Irak because the tanks and aircraft were needed in the homeland to protect some cows. Now that some pretty baddass corruption. Either that, or the competition in the meat sector has become so fierce you'd need soldier with miniguns and stripped down power armor just to contain it.
      • Point of order: the Khans women are sold into slavery if Caesar integrates them, and the Khans let it happen.
    • Gonna throw in my two cents here as this is a debate I've had with my friends several times; the NCR is an expansionistic empire that annexes places regardless of their desire to be annexed providing they have something they want. Now I'm not saying they are as bad as the legion, and honestly as far as morality goes they're generally good people. But they have no right to march in and take Vegas. I support the wild card and House endings because they're the right things to do; insure the independence of New Vegas from foreign conquerors. House and/or the Currier have an army of securitions at their disposal, upgraded to extreme combat effectiveness with a range spanning the Mojave. They can insure its security better than the NCR could. House has plans to bring the old world back, and providing Yes Man doesn't go Skynet on our asses, the Currier will have access to those plans through House's records.
      • That... doesn't make any sense. Did you pay attention to the ending at all? Let's start with your accusation that they annex you whether you like it not. If you got the Kings to stop attacking NCR citizens, it states that they let Freeside stay independent, and if you didn't slaughter the Bright Brotherhood and installed Meyers as sheriff of Primm respectively, the ending also explains that Novac and Primm also stayed independent (despite the fact that Primm is a major trading post and therefore important to the NCR). So, you say the NCR have no right to march and conquer New Vegas (i.e. provide it with security, strong production, democratically elected leaders, and advanced technology), what exactly gives House or the Courier the right to conquer New Vegas for themselves? House is an unopposed, brutal, despotic tyrant who will do numerous cruel things out of spite (kill off the Kings unless they attack innocent NCR civilians, heavily tax Primm if they accept NCR rule instead of descending into anarchy, kill off the Brotherhood, etc.). The Courier can either be a good guy or bad guy depending on your playstyle, but regardless s/he will still rule as an absolute dictator, make New Vegas a more violent and generally unstable place (as explained in the Followers ending slide), and place control of the securitron army into an insane AI he just met a few weeks ago. As for the robots: this is exactly the same trap the Brotherhood fell into, and they are much larger than the Couriers/House's robot army. The Courier or House have, at most, a couple hundred robots. The NCR have a population of 700,000, and a large portion of these people are in the military. Sure, you've driven the NCR out of New Vegas, but Oliver himself said they'd be back. Bottom line, you have no of replacing your robots. They can always get new soldiers. Finally, about the robots providing better security than the NCR military: If you get the ending where the NCR allies with the Kings and Followers, it says quite clearly that Freeside becomes a better, safer place, whereas if you drive the NCR out, the ending explicitly says that, directly because of your actions, Freeside and the rest of the Mojave become much, much worse places. Basically, the NCR ending is good for everyone in New Vegas, whereas the House/Yes Man endings are only good for the people on the strip.
        • Yes, General Oliver said they'll back, but it would have been out of his Patton-esque character to say anything else. Once he get back in NCR proper, his ass will be on a grill with Kimball's. Can you imagine? Years of war, of occupation, thousand of lives lost, litterally tons of money burned down for utterly nothing. They just got their ass handed on a silver platter by a fucking delivery boy. That's not a PR disaster for Kimball's govermnent, that's a PR apocalypse. I wouldn't expect the NCR to military try a come-back for at least ten years in this situation.
      • One important thing you are overlooking is that New Vegas did not exist in the form you see it until after the NCR had already started moving in. Forming New Vegas in its current form was performed only a few years before the game started. It was basically a Hail Mary play by Mr. House to keep himself in power. It doesn't say exactly how soon, but it was recent because every full member of the White Glove are founding members and Benny became leader immediately after the Boot Riders, the tribe that became the Chairmen, encountered a Securitron. Also, in the flashback panels of All Roads, Benny is not noticeably any younger. Basically, the NCR was annexing a highly useful area that was in complete anarchy and Mr. House went "wait, wait, wait look, we are a city now, you can't annex us, we've been functioning like this since last Thursday, you can't just overlook that history." As much as he talks about how Vegas used to be, he was dormant most of the time between the war and the events of the game.
      • The NCR does annex the Mojave whether anyone likes it or not. Sure, the NCR ending might not be all bad, but pay attention to the NPCs. Many of them are angry that the NCR are waltzing in and kicking them off 'their' land, not respecting them or their way of life, or only helping ordinary people if they see a benefit in it. And on the other side, you can find some NCR farmers walking away from the Mojave in disgust and calling it a hell-hole, or others who think the NCR is wasting time trying to 'civilize' these people. The situation is more complex than what the ending slides say, and tellingly, the opinions of the ordinary person don't have their own slide; probably none of the big powers care what they think. Fact is, many people make it clear that they don't want the NCR ruling over them for a variety of reasons, but it's obvious the NCR doesn't give a shit. The Yes Man ending isn't the greatest ending, but it's an ending that actually has a shot of actually giving ordinary citizens what they want.
    • My two cents here: The NCR gets flak because a lot of gamers tend to be anti-authoritarian and suspicious of liberal democracy; I know I've got more than a bit of that, though I'm not going to call them "evil" by any means (it's Grey and Gray Morality, after all). The NCR are led by a bunch of jingoistic assholes, the Mojave is filled with homophobic hick conscripts, and their people want to have their cake and eat it too (have the Hoover Dam's cheap electricity without spending blood to acquire it). Also, the fact is that they are expanding their territory into an independent region, by means of a war of aggression, for the primary purpose of acquiring control of a power-generating natural resource, and they are annexing communities by force wherever they see it necessary, as Goodsprings learns to its sorrow; these are tough old salts who can take care of themselves and really have no use for the NCR. Ditto the Strip tribes, though obviously they deserve less consideration (setting the Omertas aside because they ought to be wiped anyway, they do need to be kept under control by someone or the Strip will go to hell till they learn to play nice). The NCR ending is good for taking care of people who can't take care of themselves; it provides infrastructure, aid and modern democracy, but brings along with it taxes, corruption, a bunch of half-trained soldiers who're pretending to be police officers, and all the pains in the ass that civilization brings. The Wild Card ending, meanwhile? It's an ending that supports the people and communities that can mostly take care of themselves. Traders get the benefits (open roads, low taxes, all the large bandit gangs wiped out) that the Legion would provide, and they get them regardless of whether they have a penis; Goodsprings' tough old sots get along fine, the Strip and the independent communities prosper, the raider gangs are wiped off the map. But the Followers take on way too much responsibility for themselves, the Brotherhood can't be kept honest without wiping them out (this is something of an oversight), and it sucks to be a junkie or a poor, sick guy without family or community (since there's no relief a-coming).
    • ...And leaving out the poor and destitute is good while leaving everyone else on their own is good? (1) The NCR Army is not composed of jingoistic, half trained hicks. That's pretty big evidence you've never talked to an NCR soldier in game, or seen them fight with the Legion. First of all, in an engagement with the Legion, the average NCR soldier will nearly always win against the average Legion soldier or Powder Ganger in random encounters (and that's the main thing they're trying to keep away), but more importantly, NCR soldiers are not hicks. They're not violent, they don't have funny accents, they're not sexists, racists, homophobic (that one throw-away line by Knight does not count since they're are actively gay soldiers like The First Reon Sniper, and no one seems to care) or rapists (that would be the Legion). They're just people who want to make the world a better place (in the case of Hsu, Jackson, Monroe, Hayes, etc.) or who are just doing their job. I would also just like to point out that you can do all those things in the NCR ending. Every community can stay independent except Goodsprings and the Strip, which joined the NCR by choice after negotiations according the ending (though, in Primm's case, allowing them to stay independent leads to them being policed by a real half-trained violent hick). (2) When you say War of Agression that implies that the war is against the locals, which it isn't. It's against the actual bad guys on the other side of the river. The NCR never actively attacks any of the locals, except raider gangs. They actually protect the locals from the Legion, and if the locals join them, random raider groups. (3) The towns of the Mojave are not "tough old salts" they're just ordinary civilians. When you start the game, all the towns in the Mojave (that are not destroyed) are under threat and completely incapable of taking care of themselves (Goodsprings is being extorted by the Powder Gangers, Primm has been captured by the Gangers, Nipton's been destroyed, and Novac is under threat from the feral ghouls to the north). They obviously have no way of getting by unless the Courier helps them, and the ending doesn't say the Courier sends securitrons as security to their towns, so what's exactly stopping them from coming under threat again? Even if you wipe out nearly every raider gang, there's no wiping out the Jackals or Vipers, who are very active on the road to Novac... (4) "Pains in the ass that civilization brings"? You mean medical care, protection, and advanced technology at the cost of taxes? I swear, why does everyone say the NCR is bad for making people pay taxes? Where do you think they get the money to outfit those soldiers who protect you? They are not half trained soldiers pretending to be police officers, they have better equipment and are moral then any other base grunt in the Mojave (Viper, Jackal, Powder Ganger, Recruit Legionary, Fiend, Khan) except Brotherhood Paladins and Securitrons (which, once again, don't protect anything but the Strip). (5) The Wild Card ending is not for helping the people. It's not like anyone asked some random Courier to raise a robot army, take over the Strip, and drive out the NCR. It's for helping the strip. The supposed benefits of having large raider bands wipe out (which is also possible and actually easier in the NCR ending, since the NCR will wipe out the NCRCF Powder Gangers if you don't) are negated by the fact that the ending specifically says Vegas turned more violent and anarchic (Followers, Kings, and Boomer's ending slides). I'm not sure any trader is going to want to go to a place like that. (6) Goodspring also gets along fine in the NCR ending. Really, it only ever said that a few old people moved out because they didn't want to pay taxes, and that's at worst a neutral ending, the only non-happy ending in the entire NCR ending. (7) What you say implies that the Followers and Brotherhood are a lost cause, which they aren't. It's easy to get happy endings for them in the NCR ending.
    • My reason for disliking the NCR is their sheer incompetence combined with their inherent illegitimacy as a government. Of their top officers in the Mojave, one is a jingoistic General Ripper, one is actively working to subvert the NCR's war effort and get the men nominally subordinate to him killed, and the last - the man in overall command of the forces there - bides his time while the Legion exploits the weaknesses the NCR's defense that he created. Their basic ground troops get a few weeks of training and are used as cannon fodder. They only win because of the Courier's intervention and are set to keep blundering East. Their Mojave campaign can be compared to the Vietnam war, and they will just keep entering into it again and again as they expand. And on top of it all, they aren't even a legitimate government outside of their home territories. No one invited them into the Mojave and they have no right to commandeer the resources and installations they control at the game's start. The Enclave has more political legitimacy than the NCR.
      • The only NCR officer in the Mojave that is actively trying to get the men nominally subordinate to him killed is a Legion spy (there is one other working to subvert the NCR's war effort, but his plan doesn't at any point kill the men subordinate to him, and in fact culminates with manipulating Oliver into placing those men in a position to cover a retreat), someone did invite the NCR into the Mojave (the Desert Rangers - who had been there for more than a century), and the NCR has a proven track record in one area of great import: rebuilding (they have cars back West). As for their "inherent illegitimacy", there is nothing inherent about it. If the expansion had been more as that of the early days of the NCR, there would have been nothing illegitimate about it. Even now, they still act through treaties, negotiations, and will grant representation to the people of the area. Besides, there is nothing illegitimate about capturing installations belonging to the enemy, so there is one installation in Nevada that was a perfectly reasonable target, Legion or no Legion.
      • The Desert Rangers don't speak for the whole Mojave. People in Goodsprings and Primm will talk disparagingly about annexation by the NCR, and elsewhere Primm is referred to as "giving in" if the player so chooses that route. The NCR actually creates more problems by setting up shop in the Mojave. The Powder Gangers wouldn't exist if the NCR hadn't thought to move in and, overextend themselves and start housing convicts without ability to properly secure them. As a government, they are illegitimate. No one in the wasteland elected them, despite Kimball's insistence that they are "spreading democracy" and few in the Mojave actually want them there. Further, the fact that they spread themselves so thin, make no allies but dozens of enemies, and rely on poorly trained troops to fight makes their conflict in the Mojave a bloodbath. However good they are at rebuilding doesn't mean anyone wants them to move in and start charging taxes where everyone was getting along fine enough. And for all their support of negotiations and treaties, they have no qualms about obliterating groups throughout the wasteland, supporting the idea that they are aggressively expansionist and imperialistic. Other individuals even comment that they "domesticate" tribals which, given their track record, would seem to indicate more wholesale extermination.
        • Which section of their track record turns "domestication" into "extermination"?
        • The Desert Rangers where the closest thing to a government with House still dormant so they effectively did speak for the whole Mojave. Primm has one character that is really complaining about joining the NCR and that was the deputy who lost his because they didn't think three months of experience as a deputy and one day as a Sheriff where useful to them, according to the ending they didn't like the NCR's taxes but where prospering enough for it to not be an issue, the only town that suffers problems from the NCR is Goodsprings which is a town with barely any people there. You keep saying that they are illegitimate despite the fact that there was no legitimate government other than the Desert Rangers who asked them to help them because Caesars Legion was coming, House didn't stop being dormant until the NCR was nearly at Hoover Dam and instead of fighting him they tried to work with him only attacking when they found out he was planning his own takeover of the Mojave. The NCR is probably the best trained army in the entire Mojave conflict, they have the best armor and weapons out of anyone else, almost always win against the Legion unless they use a huge Zerg Rush of troopers to overrun them. the NCRF prisoners are there fault but even if the Courier doesnt kill them the NCR destroys them fixing their mistake. On your point about them not bothering to make any allies, have you played any NCR missions? Every single one of their missions involves making allies. Also they weren't just moving in to take over they where also there to stop Caesars Legion who where the real violent and cruel imperialists who the no one in the Mojave wanted to take over and who would do far worse than tax the people of the Mojave, because the Legion was coming they where not "perfectly fine" they where weeks away from being enslaved and killed en-mass. I hate to also keep bringing this up but the NCR treats tribals well, Arroyo is still a tribal group who where integrated into the NCR peacefully and there is no reason to think they dont treat other tribes worse.
      • The Desert Rangers were not a government. They certainly defended the Mojave from various threats but they in no way governed the Mojave or its people. One might even go so far to say that they had no right to make the governing of the Mojave a term of the Ranger Unification Treaty. It's random dialogue in Primm for citizens to complain about being annexed by the NCR. Point of fact, there is no citizen in Primm that actually says they want you to have the town put under NCR protection. The situations in Primm and with the Powder Gangers were caused by the NCR in the first place. Whether or not the NCR cleans up their mess doesn't really matter too much to the people that were killed or who otherwise suffered because of it. Neither the Desert Ranger or the NCR - or House or Caesar or you - were legitimate governments in the Mojave. The Desert Rangers more so, because they were not functioning in the capacity of a government. Towns like Novac, Goodsprings, Primm and Nipton governed themselves. Whether or not the NCR military is the best in the Mojave is debatable. The backstory has them having won several major victories, but in-game it's stated that the basic grunts have little training and that they suffered huge casualties against both the Legion and the Brotherhood (and sizeable losses against the Fiends). Every NCR mission that deals with "making allies" has the option of exterminating them just the same, with no one apparently caring too much either way. In fact, it's Colonel Moore - one of a handful of senior officers in the Mojave, and implied to have capacity above Crocker - outright orders you to exterminate the Brotherhood and the Great Khans, and is less than thrilled if you don't. You even partake in the state-sanctioned assassination of Mr. House if you take the NCR path. Granted, he was planning a takeover of Vegas and Hoover (though that was only because he was sure the NCR was going to kill him; see above) but that doesn't change the immorality of the act. If asked, Colonel Hsu (the senior officer in command of the forces in New Vegas proper) outright states that the NCR intends to annex Vegas and that their only real obstacle is the Fiends and General Oliver's incompetence preventing the NCR from acting offensively, so they aren't just there to defend from the Legion. The Legion is the polar opposite of the NCR, granted - an overtly bad group with some good aspects under the surface, whereas the NCR is overtly good with bad aspects under the surface - however, each faction was intended to be fairly ambiguous. And even so, the presence of the Legion doesn't change the fact that the Three Families, the Kings, The Followers, Westside, Freeside, North Vegas Square, the Khans, the Boomers, the Brotherhood, Goodsprings and Primm don't want the NCR to annex the Mojave (nor do the Fiends, but I'd accept their opinions don't count). Or that the game makes a point of showing that the NCR's leaders are some measure of incompetent, with Hsu being the only reasonable commander of the bunch. Further, given the number of parallels drawn between the NCR's Mojave campaign and the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, one can also find many of the same complaints of the invasion apply to the NCR occupation.
          • The NCR in the end benefits every single city state in the Mojave from their occupation, had they not done anything the Legion would have taken over and then attacked the NCR but in a much better position where they wouldnt have to get through Hoover Dam to attack California, The NCR had no other real choice in the matter other than taking over, note how it is because of the Courier's interferance that Primm, Freeside, North Vegas, and the Boomers joined the NCR and for all those I mentioned they have the option of remaining independent but in a worse situation.
      • Whether or not these groups benefit doesn't affect the fact that the NCR's expansionism and incompetence a valid point of contention. None of the groups you mention wanted to be a part of the NCR. Also note how it's solely because of the Courier's interference that NCR are even able to take control of these places.
        • The NCR could have easily forcibly annexed all of the territory that can remain independent but they didn't the only group that I could even see the NCR having difficulty conquering are the Boomers but the NCR still has the force of numbers necessary to crush them and take Nellis so the simple fact that they are allowed to remain independent speaks to their urge to work through treaties and genuinely help the people that are part of them. I also dont see as much incompetence as you see there are two commanders in the Mojave who are of questionable, Colonel Moore who despite being a might makes right asshole was Properly Paranoid about the Brotherhood and Mr. House and whose offensive strategy probably would have been more effective than Lee Olivers "wait and see" method. Oliver is the one truly bad commander out of all of them, he has Colonel Moores outlook on the world without her tactical sense, Chief Hanlon wants to withdraw from the region and is trying to convince the leadership that its justified but with minimal loss of life, and Hsu was genuinely one of the best commanders in the region.
          • Oh and I just noticed this but the point about House depends entirely on who got it in their head the other was trying to kill them my money is on House because he is possibly the most paranoid character in the game besides No-Bark but a case can be made for the NCR planning against him first.
      • Every NCR quest comes coupled with the option to force a takeover. A few quests come with that as a preferred method. And, just for the record, one ending for the Boomers has them defeat every NCR attempt at forcible annexation. The fact that there is incompetence in command is made clear - in fact it would seem as though part of the "point" being made about the NCR is that they aren't led by the best of people. The only reasonable leader they have is Hsu, and even he admits that he's perfectly willing to follow his orders to the letter. Kimball is the hawkish warmongering president, Moore is the bloodthirsty kill-em-all type (note her willingness to fight the NCR's way through the Mojave, despite the instances where discretion would be the better part of valor), Oliver is outwardly a jingo but obviously a very poor commander (he's willing to stack his troops up in Hoover Dam like a boardgame, forgetting that this creates severe problems in logistics and security throughout the Mojave - as evidenced by the capture of Nelson, Nipton and Cottonwood among others), and Hanlon is actively trying to subvert the NCR war effort (which is akin to treason and absolutely will cost soldiers their lives). Just the fact that it's stated the basic troops receive a few weeks of training and that their victory at Helios One is implied to have been through sheer force of numbers shows that the NCR's military strength is in its ability to draw recruits. And none of this affects whether or not the NCR has the right to be in the Mojave, which was my original point. Each faction was written with the intent of being morally gray. I'll grant you that the NCR has a number of great qualities and that I usually side with them as a "lesser of two evils" deal, but that still leaves the fact that their whole attitude is a cross between Iraq and Vietnam. Kimball's "spreading democracy" speech smacks heavily of the rationale that led to both the Vietnam War and the Iraq War.
        • Perhaps a more appropriate parallel would be the Korean War (which occurred during the 1950s). Both conflicts have had a long period of a stalemate, with frequent skirmishes and battles. The NCR forces are spread very thin along the Colorado River in a stalemate with the Legion, much like the U.N. Forces were spread extremely thin along the 38th parallel (which allowed a "volunteer" Chinese force to easily repel them). Involvement in the War for the NCR is the Hoover Dam. Involvement in the Korean War for the US was protecting interests in Japan (which was within striking distance from Korea). Both wars are fought publicly for the purpose of "spreading democracy." The General in charge of the whole operation is ready to use tactics others consider wasteful and dangerous, while he himself was in a rather safe and secure area - Oliver wants to slug it out with the Legion at the cost of untold numbers of casualties and then even invade Legion territory, while he's locked up nice and safe within Hoover Dam (General Wait-And-See). In Korea, MacArthur wanted to invade North Korea and even China, while he himself was directing most of the war effort from Tokyo, Japan. One big criticism of MacArthur is that he never spent a night in Korea.
          • I don't think that the NCR ending means paradise for everybody, it is Grey and Grey like that. And of course they are an illigitemate government for the Mojave since nobody elected them to be there. That doesn't explain preferring any other ending, though, since neither House nor Caesar nor the Courier carry any ligitemacy with them as well. I would guess that preferring the Wild Card ending is inscripted in the blood of players, you get the maximum power and it is arguable whether the people suffer or prosper more or less under your command than with the NCR. But how can any of this defend Caesar's Legion as a good ending? You don't have to be a fanboy of NCR, but comparatively speaking, they're okay in this setting which is never going to be paradise in the near future. And not being a fan should differ from denigrating everything they do. Pointing out their flaws is okay, turning a blind eye to their good points and the flaws of the other factions isn't. And excusing Caesar with speculation that he might be nicer to the slaves after he took control (for which there is no in game evidence at all) is not a valid point in this discussion which has to rely on canon.
          • Freaking seconded. I've got no problem with people who have fun doing pro-Legion playthroughs, but thinking that the Legion being victorious is the best fate for the Mojave? Where there's a chance that a woman like me has a tiny chance at being treated decently instead of a Fate Worse Than Death? Oh gee, how generous! No. Any faction that says treating 50% of the population as lesser-than is a bunch of assholes, period.


Why do the Khans never die?

  • Speaking of the Khans, don't they ever die? I wiped them out in Fallout, I wiped them out in Fallout 2, I wiped them out in New Vegas, and the epilogue tells me they're still alive and kicking up in Idaho. What makes these brigands so resilient that being destroyed three times can't stop them?
    • So long as you missed some of them somewhere, they'll come back. You cannot feasibly hunt down and kill every single Khan. The people you're killing are essentially a small selection as a gameplay limitation. The Enclave were holed up on an oil rig that you blew up but it didn't keep them from crossing the continental United States and setting up shop elsewhere.
    • Canonically, at least a few Khans survived the Vault Dweller's massacre in Fallout1, who went on to lead the New Khans in Fallout2. By that time, the Khans (along with the Jackals and Vipers) have become huge organisations that stretch across the southwest - the Great Khans in New Vegas may be their Mojave outpost, but it's not the entire organization.
      • Nope killing (most of) The New Khans is canon, as its stated that Papa Khan took what's left and went to the Mojave. Also the Vipers and Jackals are stated to be nearly gone.
    • It is possible for you to wipe out the Khans once and for all by either helping the Legion win the war (in which case the Khans will either be culturally assimilated into the Legion or exterminated down to the last man) or get them to take a path of destruction and make a suicidal attack on Hoover Dam.


A female Legion character

  • Is anyone else bothered by the fact that you can play through the whole game with a female character, help the Legion to take over the Mojave Wasteland and that the game ends with you being rewarded with your face on a coin rather than by winding up in a Slave Collar? It totally flies in the face of the Legion philosophy for them to treat you as an equal in the first place, let alone honor you after you single-handedly lead them to victory and prove their whole philosophy of Macho Superiority to be a total sham.
    • I Gave My Word... and why put you in a slave collar? Both Caesar and Lanius are very pragmatic and would probably rather have you fighting any resistance to their regime.
      • In real life, there's many sexist people who believe a single woman could be very different.
      • I Gave My Word is not how Caesar operates. People who ally with him are, if they're lucky, annexed by force, and if not, slaughtered. That said, the pragmatist argument is valid. You and your companions represent a military force that's even more powerful than the collective Enclave Remnants. Caesar already said "let's not mess with these guys" when the Remnants got out of Dodge, so if the female Courier is a match for anyone short of possibly Legate Lanius, Caesar will accept her as his Dark Chick rather than probably get himself killed and his Legion shattered by trying to collar her. Still could have been better dealt with in-game.
    • I like the idea that since Caesar made the myth that he is a son of Mars, he could have spread a similiar myth that the female courier was sent by the gods themselves, either as a child of a god or a minor diety. Recognizing you as a powerful ally, it would suit Ceasar to set you up with a place in his little mythology, to honor one who serves him awesomely. Even your average incredibly sexist Ancient Greek male would bow down in servitude if he met a female goddess. So if God > Goddess > Male Mortal > Female Mortal then the equation can go Mars > Caesar > Lanius and Female Courier > Legionari > Slave > Profligate.
  • Look at it like this. That woman, nomatter how womanly and according to the legion inferior she is, is still the Courier and has still accomplished all the various feats in the main queast. Up to and including surviving being shot in the head and singlehandedly assassinating a man surrouded by a literal army of Protectrons. Considering that Caeser still fears the Burned Man, a person who has done comparatively far less impressive or badass shit than our Mojave-trotting hero, do you he'd dare try to fuck with her?
    • I find this point hard to agree with considering Graham is your basis of comparison. The dude survived getting sniped at least five times by 1st Recon, survived getting lit on fire, survived getting thrown into the Grand Canyon, and was a Legate renowned for his brutality. I'd say the Courier has nothing on him so far. Furthermore, Caesar dares to "fuck with" Graham, sending frumentarii, assassins and entire tribes after him. If he actively tries to kill a man as feared as Graham, what would stop him from doing the same to a woman he fears comparatively less?
      • Look at what happened in the game. The Courier accomplished so much BEFORE meeting Caesar. He even remarks on every bit of it. He knows how capable you are before meeting you, and you continue to prove it during his quests. You convince the boomers and the White Gloves to help him. Given that the stalemate is broken by the Courier's action alone, would it not be in the realm of possibility that Caesar would avoid crossing the courier because there's at least a chance she can escape, and either rally a force against him or whittle down the legion by guerilla warfare. (The former one being more probable since the boomers have a bomber, they can literally rain death on Caesar and his Legion at the Courier's bidding if she so chose.)
      • I do think it makes sense that Ceaser wouldn't want to cross the Courier if he can help it. He doesn't want to create another Graham, and he knows that the Courier has already survived certain death at least once, and has allies who are definitely not associated with the Legion backing her up. Betraying the Courier at best will result int he destruction of one of his most potent allies, while at the worst it will create a new enemy who has the ability to literally wipe out armies of Legionaries without trouble. Caeser's not a moron.
      • You this troper thinks that if the legion wins and takes over the whole political landscape, that the whole culture of Legion would start to really change into Caesar's image of a new Roman Empire. Maybe women would get more rights since there would be no more need of breeding stock and maybe there would be laws to allow slaves gain their freedom (you know? Like in Ancient Rome)
        • Caesar pretty much outright states that's his plan once he makes Vegas his Rome as right now he wants an army and the best way of replacing losses is using women as bady makers also odds are if Lanius takes over he would most likly make reforms seeing you has a Worthy Opponent.
          • When does Caesar ever say that "replacing losses is done using women as baby makers"? I think you're just Wild Mass Guessing or making stuff up here.
          • Women in Legion society are either breeding stock or caretakers. And historically, that's what women were expected to do in warrior societies - pump out as many strong warriors as she possibly could. You're outright told that women are considered lesser-than in the Legion; what else do you think they believe women are good for?
            • No, that's not what I'm saying. Caesar doesn't rely on children to replenish his forces (It would simply take too long to do so). Instead, he assimilates the outside tribal cultures who already have warriors, which he deems fit to replenish the losses on his campaigns, integrating them into his army. If Caesar relies only on childbirth, he runs into the problem the Enclave and the Brotherhood of Steel have of having a limited supply of fresh soldiers who require some 15 years to grow and mature enough to start fighting for the Legion.
        • Caesar isn't interested in a real copy of the Roman empire. He gleaned off the bits that he liked (glory to Rome, slavery, militancy) and ignored the parts where he didn't (democracy, culture, medicine). There's no reason to believe that he'd try to change a society that, to him, clearly already works. And besides, it'd be a bit hard raising a whole army to see women and slaves as lesser-than and then suddenly try to give them rights. If that ever happened, it'd take generations.
        • Umm what the hell else do you think they use the female slaves for if not sex, the resulting kids may not be on purpose but they would definately happen after all a strictly tech free society means no latex for condoms. They have male slaves to do hard labor and so I doubt that that they are often specifically appointed for that.


How to pronounce Caesar's name

  • Caesar's name. Is it pronounced 'SEE-zur' or 'kiy-ZAHR'? Consistency is your friend, Obsidian.
    • This is lampshaded in the game with one of the first characters you meet. ("I'm not sure if it's pronounced Ceasar or Ceasar.") People within the game pronounce it differently depending on whether they're Legion or not. Legionaries use the correct Roman pronounciation. Except for Karl, who should know better but says "See-zar."
    • Not just Karl, but other minor Legionaire NPCs are prone to using the soft C, as well. The whole "kiy-ZAHR" business also Just Bugs Me, since how does Caesar know the proper pronunciation? We live in a world with far more common knowledge on Ancient Rome, and yet everyone - from academics downwards - tends to use "SEE-zur". So how did someone reading The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire and Commentaries manage to figure this out?
      • If you look in a Latin dictionary or textbook they have a pronunciation guide according to current academic thinking on the subject. Caesar trained as a linguist with the Followers, who probably had such dictionaries/textbooks in their libraries. He probably thus actually studied the language itself and is able to read and speak it, not just the obvious quoting most everyone else is doing. I don't think he just read Gibbon or something. (Arcade, too -- even though everything he says to the player is a well-known quote, I think the idea is he's fluent. Informed Ability, in a way? I dunno.)
      • Arcade claims to have learned Latin from, among other things, Gladiator movie holotapes. I doubt he's actually fluent, and just tells people he is because it's not like some random stranger is likely to call you out on it.
      • The Fallout Wiki says that he based the Legion off what he read of Gibbon's Decline and Fall and Caesar's Commentaries. It is possible that he had access to a Latin dictionary, but its not explicitly stated.
        • Point ceded, largely. I would venture in answer that knowing a language and knowing the history of its speakers are different things. If he was reading the Commentarii (title non-Anglicized) I would gather he had some working knowledge, but maybe not.
      • It should be noted that Caesar does pronounce all of his Latin in proper classical pronunciation. As a linguistic anthropologist and being well-read, it's implied he does properly speak Latin.
    • Direct word of god from a developer post on the Something Awful forum:
      • RE: pronunciation: I asked that all Legion folks pronounce Latin according to classical rules of pronunciation. Caesar learned Latin out of textbooks and would pass on those rules of pronunciation to everyone else (Caesar is essentially the tribes' only source for such knowledge). People who are not part of the Legion pronounce Latin using popular American (usually based in ecclesiastical/Catholic rules) pronunciation. Because Arcade learned Latin from various sources, both popular and academic, his pronunciation depends on how culturally mainstream the phrase or figure are. He says "see-zur" and "kay-to" but he also says "wee-trix" and "noh-wee".
  • Just as a matter of interest, Ceaser is the root word of the German word Kaiser (king), which shows how the English/Latin pronounciation has abandoned the hard-C over the past two millenia.


The condition of New Vegas compared to DC

  • Here's something I haven't been able to shake: According to in-game lore, Mr. House saved Las Vegas from 70-odd nuclear missiles. Not only is 70 over-kill, but you'd think he would have managed to save the surrounding area too. Instead, it's all a wasteland! Las Vegas itself is still mostly dilapidated buildings save for a few key structures, and the strip, which is REALLY annoying because of the huge deal that was made of "The huge, glowing city un-touched by the Great War". This MIGHT be Fridge Brilliance in that no one's been taking CARE of the other buildings in the last 200 years, but then why's there still mutated monsters and ghouls around? It's just jarring seeing "New Vegas", which wasn't hit, looking exactly like the Washington DC in Fallout3, which got DIRECTLY hit in SEVERAL places (maybe that's a problem with THAT game in that there's still structures standing at all...)
    • I think your problem may actually lie with Fallout 3 rather than New Vegas. The area surrounding Vegas is in pretty good condition for having little to no maintenance for the last two centuries. Washington D.C. is in ludicrously good condition for being hit by multiple warheads and having no maintenance for the last two centuries. Plus 70 nukes isn't that many considering how large an area Mr. House is reported to have defended.
    • Because the New Vegas area WAS hit by some bombs, just not many, House only managed to shoot down/redirect most of, not all, the bombs, because the war started a few hours early and he hadn't gotten the platinum chip yet to upgrade his defenses to the point they needed to be. And as for the amount and damage per bomb observed, the only real explanation, taking 3 into account as well, is that the nuclear bombs in the Fallout-verse were much, much weaker then current ones are.
    • The issue is with the Fallout 3 lore, not New Vegas. Washington DC should have been completely destroyed. There is never any explanation in Fallout 3 as to why Washington DC's level of destruction was less than what was seen in the much smaller, less strategically important areas used in the other games in the series.
    • Well, it's entirely possible that Washington had some sort of missile defence system also, though obviously not as effective as Mr House's.
    • I've always assumed that it's because, in the Fallout-verse, wartime nuclear warheads were far from the multi-megaton city-busters of the modern age, but smaller-scale warheads that could either be used for precision strikes or to blanket a whole area. Quantity, rather than quality. The Glow was created by a single nuclear warhead that punched a rather neat hole through the centre of the entire facility, and yet it was still explorable. A multi-megaton weapon would have obliterated the facility. And everything around it. Hiroshima and Nagasaki proved that kiloton nukes could do the job of crippling an entire city, and even in this age a few megaton warheads would be considered overkill for a single city. Returning to the Fallout-verse, remember that the entire world was prepared for global thermonuclear war, even if the actual event caught everyone by surprise. Defences against ICBMs and bomb drops would have been common, and the ideal counter to that would be to spam as many nukes as possible at the target to overwhelm the target. If you are going to throw nearly eighty nukes at a city, does it make better sense to send in eighty very heavy megaton nukes, or as many kiloton nukes that would do the same job if several of them hit but would be able to travel faster and thus stand a greater chance of hitting their targets? Quantity has a quality of its own.
      • This is actually the theory behind current MIRV's. Hiroshima and Nagasaki aren't good examples of the destructive power of nukes considering they spared most "hard" buildings in the vicinity (most of the destroyed ones were made of wood).


The lack of a peaceful solution between Mr. House and the NCR

  • Why isn't there any option for a peaceful solution between the NCR and Mr. House? If you look at it in the long-run, they goals are not really in conflict. The NCR doesn't really think that the Strip is really strategically important and Mr. House acknowledge that his entire plan depends on New Vegas being supported by the NCR's caravan trade and tourist economy. Why couldn't they work out some kind of a deal?
    • There is even a document in the game's files that seems to suggest that a peaceful outcome was intended to be possible. But it got removed in the final release for some reason.
      • Maybe they took it out because it wasn't very believable? I doubt the man would have painfully achieved 200 years of survival and preparation just to become a servant to a group that he can't stand.
        • But Mr. House himself admitted that despite their ideological differences, he doesn't actually mind the NCR that much since they are his best customers. Also, with his wealth and knowledge, by joining the NCR he could have easily dominated the republic's economy within a few years and within a couple of decades, become the unofficial leader of the NCR Congress by means of buying out and absorbing the caravan and brahmin companies into his business empire, becoming a monopoly of critical resources in the entire core region. His long term plan requires that the Strip remains open for business and the NCR tourist economy, but it doesn't really require New Vegas to remain independent. Especially considering that a single economic embargo from the NCR can destroy his entire plan. Wouldn't it be easier if he is on the republic's good side?
    • What House is afraid of is that once the Legion has been dealt a more convincing defeat, the NCR can fabricate a reason to remove House from New Vegas and simply annex the entire Mojave, levy it's laws on the land, tax the hell out of both him and the people to pay for it's war. Mr. House explains that his treaty with the NCR is one of both necessity and convenience. He knew his plan was flimsy from the start because of his own circumstances, but he had the advantage in that the NCR didn't want a two-front war over Hoover Dam. The treaty is essentially there for the NCR to be placated and give House time to put his real plan into motion (scouring the world for the Platinum Chip, to start). His plan is one to encourage trade without giving up control for his idea of New Vegas. With him in control of Hoover Dam, he will still trade with the NCR, and he'll have economic and political control of the region without real fear of an NCR takeover.


The Strip divided into three sections

  • It seriously bugs me that there are two very ugly metal gates dividing the Strip into 3 sections. What's the practical reason for that? It clashes with the bright atmosphere, and must have taken a lot of work just for nothing. Besides, it makes me have to load more screens.
    • To devide the NCR embassy away from the rest of New Vegas. Its to allow strategic superiority to the Securitrons.
    • From a tactical point of view, it makes the city more defendable when confronted with an invading army. There movements will be contained to only a single section of the city as the defenders fortified their position at the gate. Forcing the attackers to attack three fortified locations before they can overrun the entire Strip.
    • From a gameplay point of view, it is just to give you a shorter loading time for each section of the city.
    • There are no actual barriers on the Strip; they're just in there for loading time. In the cinematic intro, the Strip was one continuous road.
    • Engine limitations - most modern game engines would be able to load up the Strip no problem, but as it is (especially with the various NPCs wandering about) it pushes the engine to its limits. I'm just thankful that we only have split-second load times between the sections rather than full loading screens.
    • JE Sawyer says its because the Xbox and Play Station 3 cant handle all the things that happen on the strip and only the PC version would have supported a single zone strip. They did try to do it though as a one-zone strip remains in the code, they just couldn't fix it.


The un-Roman-like behavior of the Legion

  • As someone who started FNV wanting to side with the Legion out of a love for Roman-ness, I cannot help but say that I was sad to find that I could not side with the morals of the Legion. If it had only been an issue of democracy and monarchy, I would have quickly embraced Caesar's tyranny. If only Caesar's destruction of tribal culture in favor of Roman culture had been an issue, I would have also embraced it. If slavery had been an aspect of their culture instead of one of its most important part, I would have cringed a bit, but accepted it, especially since it is an accurate representation of Roman culture. But the Legion's complete reliance upon slavery (when the Imperial period, in fact, saw a decrease in slavery), misogyny that goes far beyong Roman ideals of sex roles, and a culture that seems to be entirely martial, with nothing of real Rome aside from titles and outfits. There seems to be nothing good to come out of citizenship in the Legion - everyone is a slave, either to Legionaries or to their commander. The Legion's often lauded safety comes at the cost not of a lack of political freedom or even servitude, but complete lack of the self. We do not see the homefront, which could make me wrong, but I do believe we are informed that every man is either a miles (I don't know the term they use, so I'll use Latin) or a slave and, of course, all women are slaves or priestesses. Why couldn't Caesar and his Legion just be more Roman! Why couldn't Caesar have read Livy and Cicero instead of Caesar and Gibbon! In all, I can see why to pick every other path - NCR leads to modern democracy and a large, powerful state capable of defending the desert, Mr. House leads to a very stable dictatorship that is generally benign and allows for substantial freedom, independence either leads to the Courier's dictatorship or small scale democracy, but the Legion leads to everyone becoming slaves or soldiers who will be unleashed to the West to create more slaves and soldiers. The Legion is just makes no sense to me, which is particularly annoying, since, as stated at the beginning, I wanted to love them.
    • You could argue that Caesar is in love with superficial Romantic trappings, emulating the look rather than the spirit of the Roman Empire. Your level of disappointment probably depends on which one of those two things you find most exciting and inspiring. ;D I mean, if you love "Roman-ness" it seems fine to side with the NCR, because as the vestige of representative democracy and republicanism that comes down from ancient Greece and Rome, they're the true spiritual inheritors of Roman ideas? Depends on whether one thinks the anima of a society is more fully expressed in the style of their uniforms or the content of their doctrines. I tend toward the latter, thus the NCR seems more "Roman" to me than the Legion, despite Caesar's cute little Latin phrases and his declaration that he's descended from Mars and whatnot. Mostly I think of him as playing dress-up. Robs him of much of his malice, haha. Caesar's got his own interpretation of the Romans, but I'm not sure I trust his hermeneutic or his historiography.
      • Well, the idea that Roman republicanism is anything like French, American, New Californian republicanism is sort of... wrong. Don't get me wrong, the bourgeoisie of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries did a good job using the Roman republic as a propaganda piece and as a precident for what they were doing. Roman republicanism was more about the interests of the warrior elite, at least in the beginning, and eventually ended up serving the interests of a political elite who were simultaneously war-like and cultured. Also, considering that the guy is calling himself Caesar and not Cato or Scipio, I sort of assumed it would be more like Imperial Rome, which would still have at least had the whole cultured, elite aspect to it. But you are right, he basically is playing dress-up.
      • Roman republicanism was more about the interests of the warrior elite, at least in the beginning, and eventually ended up serving the interests of a political elite who were simultaneously war-like and cultured. What part of that doesn't sound like what we've got now? ;D The Roman Senate was perhaps more similar to the House of Lords (not exact analogy obv.), the formula of balancing between the ruling agencies (of powerful, influential men doing their own thing), notwithstanding shifts in the Zeitgeist, strike the ear quite similarly. But, yeah, Caesar's model is not so much The Roman Republic as The Roman Empire.
      • The difference is that while the Roman Republic's elite fought with their soldiers and were schooled in philosophy, rhetoric, and history, a modern republic's elite don't and aren't (alright, maybe that's a bit too harsh ;D ). I would agree that the House of Lords was pretty similar to the Senate (though, not anymore, since voting has polluted it). And yes, Caesar's model was the the empire, not the republic, which is part of why I'm bugged, but there were still awesome aristocrats during the empire - Agricola and Pliny the Younger are the first that come to mind - who were still very important politically, socially, and militarily (the Year of Four Emperors could not have happened if they didn't exist).
    • The Legion is not intended to be an exact replica of Roman culture. Caesar's knowledge of Roman culture is limited and fairly superficial, which is mentioned by Arcade who has the same level of knowledge in Roman culture as Caesar.
      • I know, but that just bugs me, since I was hoping for something different.
      • Caesar seems similar to Mussolini in the superficial use of Roman imagery combined with a Fascist ideology.
  • Keep in he Caesar's Legion is also basically roving barbarians as well, I imagine Caesar envisioned building a capital with a grand palace, theater, arena, and other public works that would generally make FNV look more like the Oblivion , but for now he has to make due with tents and little huts made out of scrap.
    • Exactly if the Legion win and reach a point of relative peace and not constant warfare, then maybe Caesar will take the time to truly create his grand dream of a Pax Roma that might include the decreasing acts of genocide, sexism, and even give slaves chances of freedom. The legion at some point needs to settle down because once there is nothing left to conquer you are left with an army of disciplined beasts, just give the legionaries some denari and land to settle down.
      • Or maybe like with Sparta the only thing keeping them alive is war and when they finally stop fighting they find out no one is competent enough to run it in peacetime.
        • you could argue that Caesar is smart enough to realize the mistakes and problems in doing that and Caesar if he is alive would groom his successor in understanding how to run a state in peace. I mean Caesar is not some kind of hick, he is pretty intelligent and know doubt read books on infrastructure, which would make a fascinating DLC to go in Arizona to see how exactly does the Legion run not on the warfront.
          • I really doubt he planned on that this is the guy who thought Lanius would make an amazing successor, which is a lot like thinking Hitler would do an amazing job as the Prime Minister of Israel.
            • I don't think people give Lanius his due, sure he is a mass murdering blood knight, but he understands a lot about trade routes and you can show him the follies of burning and pillaging every city or village that the Legion comes across. No the Legion I think is a case of the And it worked trope, in which while brutal and cruel, the Legion does provide security and in the post apocalyptic world, surviving is more important than personal freedoms.
              • I'm sure there are a lot of women who would argue against what the Legion does.
              • Exactly. It's easy to just say that 'safety is better than freedom' when you've never been faced with spending the rest of your life being raped by violent assholes for the rest of your life, because there are things that are A Fate Worse Than Death. Especially since most of us already live in countries where people died for our freedoms. Those freedoms are not things to be tossed aside lightly just so an egomaniac can keep you 'safe'.


The light step perk

  • The light step perk. Sure, you can avoid to set off all of the enemies floor trap only to have your partner set them off about 5 seconds later, with you standing 2 feet away. Sure, it inflicts less damage BUT the "point" of that perk is so you DON'T take damage.
    • Waste of a perk, anyway. It's all around more profitable to watch where you're going and disarm traps of XP. Plus, as noted, your companions don't have it.
    • You can still disarm the traps even if you have the perk. It just makes it a little easier to do so.
    • This perk is also significantly more attractive for non-VATS users, since the perk list is much smaller after you remove VATS perks, perks related to different playing styles, and perks, like Swift Learner and Explorer, that give bonuses that really don't matter.


The blurry screen when drugs wears off.

  • When your jet/psycho/alcohol/Super Stimpack/ANYTHING wears off and the screen gets blurry and less colored for about 5 seconds. You can't see and that's REALLY inconvenient during a battle. Which is when you tend to use healing items.
    • Or more fun. On Hardcore mode, my absolute refusal to pay for a doctor has resulted in clearing entire caves/vaults/what-have-you with a crippled head. I may not be able to see you, but my Super Sledge can still hit you.
      • You could still use Doctors Bags.
    • That is intentional. The positive effects of those drugs are offset by negatives like addiction and inconvenient screen blurring.


Backup power for Vegas

  • During the Wild Card quests (I think it was installing the override chip at the El Dorado power station), one of the options Yes Man suggests is to wreck the Hoover Dam's turbines, making the dam useless to the NCR. What happens to Vegas if you take that option -- where does it get power from?
    • Helios One is supplying power to New Vegas, and Mr.House likely has contingincies in place for that sort of thing anyway.
    • Mr. House have two generators underneath the Lucky 38. The reason why he wanted you to install the override chip at the El Dorado power station was because he needed the energy to jump start the generators as a back-up in the event that the power from Hoover Dam gets cut off during the Legion's attack. But even then, they don't have enough power to supply both the Securitrons army and keep the all the lights at the Strip on. So the option of destroying the turbines at Hoover Dam is a case of sacrificing the Mojave's best chance of economic propriety and self-sufficiency to ensure that the NCR will not try to gain control of the region ever again.


Inconvenient location of safe houses.

  • It Just Bugs Me that my safehouse is in probably the most inconvenient spot in the game. I can't Fast Travel to anywhere inside of the Strip. So if I want to change Veronica out for Boone because it's time to snipe some Deathclaws, I have to Fast Travel to the Strip gate, probably get attacked by a suddenly-spawned Freeside Thug, wait for a loading screen, run to the Lucky 38, another loading screen, ask Victor to open the damn elevator, yet another loading screen, and then finally get to my hotel room. I seriously thought about just relocating back to my crappy Novac motel room with the blood stains on the carpet and the decomposing corpse of Jeannie May outside on the rocks; what it lacks in atmosphere it makes up for in being able to get there with three times less loading. I appreciate that they gave us somewhere to gather all our companions, but couldn't it have been a little more convenient (and maybe with a little less creepy wind noise)?
    • Freeside thugs get shot by Securitrons if they get that close, and most of the safehouses are not all that better. Novac is good but the water is irradiated, and the faction safehouses are surrounded by enemies half the time. The Lucky 38 may take a bit longer to get inside, but it makes up for it by having a ton of space to store stuff.
    • Want a convenient spot to store your stuff? Try the Goodsprings cemetary. No, really, you practically spawn right on top of a grave if you fast travel there. No hassle with multiple loading screens, and the worst you'll face is a couple Botflies, at best.
      • Umm sorry but this troper at a high level was collecting snowglobes fast traveled to the cemetary i forgot. and guess what was waiting.. oh it had wings and flew but wasn't a bloatfly. CAZADORS!!!
      • The latest DLC Old World Blues just solved this problem.


Were the BOS Paladins that massacred the Followers outpost rogue?

  • Were those brotherhood of steel paladins who massacred the followers outpost rouge? It seems so, as killing them does not effect your reputation with the brotherhood and no one else in the brotherhood bunker (including McNamara) seems to acknowledge that there was a horrific massacre of unarmed doctors.
    • I think it was made unclear deliberately. On one hand, the group of paladins that committed the massacre are clearly extremist that does not represent the entire Brotherhood. However, they did say 'In the name of the elder, we sentence you to death!' before attacking you and Veronica instead of something like 'For the Brotherhood!' or 'In the name of the Codex!'. So it does imply that they have some kind of authorization from McNamara. It is really up for you to intrepid it. My understanding is this, McNamara has known Veronica for his entire life and he knows that she will likely use her knowledge to help another group once she has left. He is forced by the codex to prevent this, yet he cannot bring himself to kill the young women that he once treated as his niece. Then he remembered about the group of extremist paladins as his solution to this problem. He ordered them to keep an eye on Veronica, fully knowing that they will very likely engage in some very extreme actions and kill her. This way, he never officially given them the orders to commit the massacre or to kill Veronica, but the logical assumption is that they will. So he and the Brotherhood at large can officially keep their hands clean.
      • This would be completely out of character for McNamara. For one thing his views are nearly identical to Veronica's, but he is actually responsible for his chapter and realizes the pragmatic aspects of the Brotherhood. He would have just ignored Veronica's defection entirely.
    • They're rogue. When you meet them just outside the bunker and first threaten you, you can ask if the Elder knows what they're doing, and they say something along the lines of "No, but his job is to follow the Codex, so as long as we do the same we don't need to ask permission." Basically they're assuming that either the Elder agrees with them or the only reason he disagrees is because Veronica has poisoned his mind with lies.
      • But the paladins did say 'In the name of the elder, we sentence you to death!' before attacking. If they are doing it without the elder's permission, why would they say that instead of 'In the name of the codex!'?
      • Doing something "in the Elder's name" is different from asking him for permission. They're using his name because they're sure that, if he had all the facts and was rational, he'd agree with them, so clearly they're acting for him. It's the usual Insane Troll Logic you get out of fanatics.
      • Actually there are real world parallels. For example, in the Catholic church the idea of demonic possession is cannon. Some Bishops, however, are often afraid to be perceived as superstitious or are themselves skeptical of the phenomenon and thus will not grant exorcism faculties (permission) to any priest in their diocese. There exists a sort of side step around this method that acts on the principal that, if the Bishop believes all the teachings of the church. he would authorize an exorcism in certain cases. Since the bishop is required to believe in all church dogma, it must be authorized. This logic is considered hazy at best by cannon lawyers, of course, as cannon law has no conception of Insane Troll Logic.


The unsatisfying outcome for the independents ending.

  • Why were the Wild Card endings for most factions so unsatisfying? The Brotherhood kills people for technology, the Boomers remain isolated, and the followers get overrun with patients. Why is there no way around this? What if my character was nice and reasonable, and as the ruler of New Vegas chose to use his pull with the Boomers to get them to trade a little bit (most players have "Idolized" reputation with them by the end of the game). What if I wanted to take the extra money earned from the Casio's to fund the followers? What if I wanted to use some of those hundreds of Missile launcher and gattling laser toting robots to keep order in Freeside (with help from the Kings, of course)? What if I wanted to trade control Archimedes II and the Helios power plant in exchange for the Brotherhood (which "Idolized" me) in exchange for stopping their attacks and keeping the plant (and Hoover Dam, if they had the manpower) running for New Vegas? Why couldn't I negotiate with the NCR to let their troops leave peacefully in exchange for the salvaged power armor for the Brotherhood? WHY?
    • Because the Wild Card is implied to be a pretty horrific ending. Yes, Man practically tells you outright that he, not the Courier, is in charge. It is also fairly strongly implied that Yes, Man uses the Securitrons to brutally put down resistance against him. That's why not upgrading the Securitrons leads to a long period of anarchy. The reason its negative is because you do not actually have control over New Vegas, Yes, Man does and Yes, Man turns out to be a lot less nice than he says he should be.
    • And to be fair, the game does give you a fair amount of warning that freedom and independents will not come at a cheap price. Mr. House and Yes Man did warned you that all their predictions point out that there is no way in which the Brotherhood will tolerate the idea of New Vegas becoming a center of technology defended by robots. The Boomers have their isolationist beliefs because that they were attacked as they originally left their vault. Without an organized government to keep order, it is likely that many people will try to penetrate Nellis Air Force Base since it is full of technology that is worth a lot of money. This will only serve to convince the Boomers that all outsider (other then you and Janet) are the savages that they were told since at a young age. When you deal with the NCR at Hoover Dam, General Oliver even calls you out for actually thinking that you alone will be able to build an entire nation by yourself.
    • The Courier does not have the resources that Mr. House and the NCR do. Yeah, you can take over New Vegas and Hoover Dam with your Securitron Army. However, consider this. The NCR has the manpower and money to build infrastructure in the Mojave, particularly when working with the Kings and the Followers, because they're the entire, mostly-rebuilt State of California. The Courier and Yes Man are essentially starting from scratch without even the NCR's military to keep the peace; they have neither the resources to help the Followers (who really have no business trying to help everyone like they do) nor the spies and manpower needed to patrol the Mojave or keep the Brotherhood honest. That said, it's really not a bad ending in general if you clear out the Powder Gangers, the Fiends, Black Mountain and the Brotherhood (and the Brotherhood really have it coming, before anyone complains about that). Look at the traders who prefer to deal with the Legion rather than the NCR, because the Legion keeps the roads safe and doesn't tax them to death. The Courier can do the same, without the Legion's more dickish traits, just by cleaning out the various uncooperative sorts and telling everyone else "Don't Make Me Come Over There." There's lots of prospering communities in the Mojave. Of course, if you want lots of relief efforts and a modern democracy, then why aren't you backing the NCR in the first place?
      • I did back the NCR, in 2 out of 4 of my playthroughs, but I decided in one playthrough to go for the Wild Card ending because everyone was going on about how great it was, and I was really dissapointed by how shitty an ending it is. I also did personally clear out the Powder Gangers, Fiends, Black Mountain, and the Vault 19 Convict Gang (not the Brotherhood though; I don't care what you see, jerkassery in a few members does not justify mass murder), that doesn't stop you from handing over money from the casinos (which make a ton and are completely loyal to me after I replaced their leaders, by the way), but this doesn't let me handle the issue with the Brotherhood peacefully, give just a little of my massive funds to the followers, or keep order in the rest of Vegas, since pretty much every part of Vegas outside the strip and the independent communities are completely screwed, according to the ending narration.

Boomers End Narration: Though the wasteland became anarchic after Hoover Dam, the Boomers show of force...
Kings Ending Narration: Following the battle of Hoover Dam, Freeside came to be known as one of the safer areas in New Vegas, unlike the other sections outside the strip, where resentment towards the NCR still lingers.

      • The only thing the ending does - the only thing it can do - is inform you of the situation after the Battle of Hoover Dam. The whole point of the Wild Card ending is that now it's all up to you, the player, to imagine how you'll tackle these problems. One player might, like you said, donate a lot of the Strip taxes to the Followers and try to fix up Freeside, or they might rule the Strip like a king just like Mr House. The game can't guess that kind of person you are. You've kicked out all other factions; it's your call now.
  • I do agree that there could have been methods to arrange for a peaceful alliance with the Brotherhood instead of solving the problem by superior firepower (if you so choose; personally, I find that this is a case where the Wulfenbach Doctrine can be productively applied), that the Boomers should be willing to come out and trade if you complete Volare, and that it's a bit silly to say that "the wasteland is more unstable and anarchic than before" when you've personally taken out or otherwise pacified all the organized raider tribes in the Mojave. On the other hand, you don't have enough boots on the ground to police the Wasteland as a whole, the Scorpions, Jackals and Vipers are still roaming the place, and with the NCR gone, there is no law outside of the various communities. Regarding the Followers, Being Good Sucks, and With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility. Like Spider-Man, they're taking on far more responsibility than their resources and personnel can handle, and they suffer for it. Finally, I would disagree with your characterization of the destruction of the Brotherhood as mass murder; I consider it an act of law enforcement. If they're going to start kicking around wastelanders who use technology that they don't like, then they have to be brought under control, and at present the only available means of doing so is by eliminating them.
        • If you get them to ally with the NCR first, the ending says they "harass" people over their technology. Not kill, harass. Steal at worst. Last time I checked, the NCR or any civilized society didn't react to theft by locking someone in their family inside a bunker and blowing it up. Because it still is mass murder, no matter how hard you look at it. Some of the people in the Brotherhood Bunker are actually pretty nice. Yet they apparently deserve death like the rest? Also, the wasteland did get more anarchic if you went independent. The ending narratin says so falt out.
      • A: Yes, the NCR does respond to theft in the Mojave with summary execution; this is explicitly stated. Even if we ignore this (and the fact that it's the Wild West), "seizing" items (as it says in the no-truce ending, and please don't tell me that Elder McNamara will somehow be nicer about it and send patrols out to lecture people instead of taking their stuff) is armed robbery, which is not just theft, it's a violent felony (so they prefer to threaten you with their guns first instead of just shooting and looting, there's no real difference). So in other words, those nice scribes are still part of a bandit army, and they're the people who build and repair the power armor that Brotherhood Paladins are using to seize technology from travellers. So this is precisely the same thing you're doing with the Fiends and the NCRCF Powder Gangers: a police action against bandits. Bandits hang, and the fact that there's some civilians inside a military base doesn't mean you don't bomb it. War never changes. B: Yes, the narration says that New Vegas becomes more anarchic, I'm saying that, at least for New Vegas proper, that's extremely ridiculous (and I think we agree there; that's the point of the IJBM).
        • My real problem is the only solution was to kill them, when there is tons of other ways to stop them. Also, the wasteland got more anarchic because the NCR wasn't around, which makes sense, but I thought it didn't make any sense that I couldn't just have any interaction with any faction in the Yes Man path that would influence the ending outside of killing them or getting them to kill other people. There was no solution to send securitrons into Freeside, and if anything Westside should be doing better, since I annihilated the fiends and they were entirely self sufficient anyway. Also, yeah, the Brotherhood kind of deserves it, especially when you consider they have produced people like Elijah, but its still kind of Disproportionate Retribution, and I just couldn't bring myself to kill them all because it makes the ending for Veronica even sadder and it's kind of cold blooded considering that I'm a member and all by the end of the game. And yes, it is mass murder to kill all of them for armed robbery (which is not punishable by death, if the NCRCF is any indication, the whole "shoots at you for stealing tin cans" thing is just a handwave of the bad AI when it comes to that. Certain members deserve it, but the entire organization doesn't).
      • Handwave or not, even if the NCR didn't do it (and I don't think it's a handwave that they shoot thieves in the Mojave, I think it's Gameplay and Story Integration), it's still standard practice to kill bandits in any Wild West setting, which the Mojave (sans NCR or Legion) is. Anyway, obviously we have different opinions on the amount of force that is justified to put a stop to the Brotherhood, so I'll leave that for now. I agree that the Mojave Wasteland going anarchic with the NCR gone makes sense, though that would be counterbalanced by the fact that the Powderheads and Fiends (and if I'm running things, the Brotherhood; YMMV) have been annihilated, the Khans have evacuated, and there's multiple One Man Armies (Arcade and Raul, and Boone working as a caravan guard) policing the wastes. Outer Vegas turning anarchic, however, not a chance; in the House ending, House sends securitrons to maintain order in Outer Vegas, and since we already know that you can stop rioting on the Strip (with lethal firepower), policing the 'sides and the rest of Outer Vegas should not be a problem. Honestly, I think that the problem is that the game lacks a postgame sequence; when you go to Hoover Dam, the wasteland is stuck as you left it and assumes that you won't continue to build the peace.


Can't fill up empty bottles with water.

  • It's nice that I can fill Empty Soda Bottles with Cactus Water, although other empty bottles would have been cool, too. But why can't I fill them with water from, a tap, a well or a lake?
    • Gameplay and Story Segregation is the best I can come up with. It really wouldn't kill Obsidian to put it in. However, being able to make as many useable items as you have tin cans could be a Game Breaker in itself, which could be why they decided against it.
    • If they make that an option, that bottled water will effectively become useless. Again, it is an example of Gameplay and Story Segregation.
    • Problem solved. In the Old World Blues DLC, you can fill up empty bottles at a talking sink in your base. Turns out, a sink is the only one with the skills to do so.


The point of Yes Man becoming more 'assertive'.

  • What's the point, story-wise, of the whole Yes Man upgrade thing in the Wild Card ending in which Yes Man says he's found an upgrade that will make him more "assertive"? I realize that it's entirely logical for something like a Klingon Promotion to be possible for Yes Man, considering the position he'd be in at the game's end, and it would be an interesting twist, but on the other hand...this occurs right before the ending. And since it's been confirmed by the devs that there's no way to play after the ending, all this essentially accomplishes is planting a seed of doubt in the minds of everyone going for the Independent ending, doubt that may or may not be justified, but there's no way to find out which it is seeing as the game is basically over. It really feels like the Wild Card quest ends with a sour note instead of a bang.
    • This is a bad thing? There's ambiguity in each of the other endings, and the Wild card ending would feel awfully idealistic without the possibility of you facing the same issues that the other leaders you've deposed to get where you are.
    • When you think about it, it actually make sense. By choosing the independent Vegas ending, you have effectively replaced Mr. House. And part of the price that you have to pay is that in order to maintain control, you will have to rely on Yes Man, an AI with an unclear agenda (which is very similar to Mr. House relying on you to make his plans work). You will never know if he is going to turn on you any second or start disobeying your orders and go after his own agenda. If the player made the choice of working with Yes Man because they want to become the absolute ruler of New Vegas, this is a final note to remind them that there is a heavy price behind that choice.
      • Then would be a good time to apply those Science skills to Yes Man.
      • Someone over at the Fallout wiki has suggested that this is a way for the developers to justify a given outcome if the Wild Card ending is treated as canon in later installments, independent of how the Courier is played. It can also be justified in-story with the upgrades being programs left behind by Mr. House to ensure the continuation of his plans in the event of his demise.
    • I don't why everyone is everyone is so horrified that Yes Man will become more assertive. To quote Wikipedia:

Assertive people have the following characteristics: They feel free to express their feelings, thoughts, and desires. They are "also able to initiate and maintain comfortable relationships with [other] people" They know their rights. They have control over their anger. This does not mean that they repress this feeling; it means that they control anger and talk about it in a reasoning manner. "Assertive people ... are willing to compromise with others, rather than always wanting their own way ... and tend to have good self-esteem". "Assertive people enter friendships from an 'I count my needs. I count your needs' position".

      • Sound like a pretty good attitude to have as far as I'm concerned. Unless Yes Man is completely lying or never opened a dictionnary (figuratively), someone will explain to me where exactly is the problem.
      • It could certainly be a euphemism for "out of the player's control." I guess it depends on the type of courier; if you played "No Gods, No Masters" because you really wanted an independent New Vegas, this is a neutral or good thing, if you played it to screw over everybody and be the next Mr. House, this is an unmitigated disaster.
      • If you pay attention to what Yes Man actually says, just about every conversation he has with you contains numerous ambiguous, Skynet-esque comments. For someone that is supposedly only capable of doing things under direct orders, he creates a very elaborate plan. The only part of his plan that he considers mandatory is installing him so he completely controls all of the Securitrons. Taking the "assertive" comment at face value rather than skulking in a dictionary seems the more logical way to deal with that.
        • Yes Man cannot lie, and he took the time to choose his words carefully in that scene. My guess is that there is something he is trying very hard to not say.
        • Also, don't forget that Yes Man isn't a human being, one that can be killed or reasoned with; he's an AI wielding a lot of power. Name one AI with that much power that ever turned out good.
        • ...Helios? Cortana?
        • Perhaps it might be better to look at artificial intelligences of science fiction closer to the era Fallout bases its SCIENCE! on. So, Multivac would be one example. There's also, to a lesser and perhaps more ambigious degree, the Machines (Of course, that was also Asimov).
      • When questioned about this, J.E. Sawyer stated that betrayal wasn't the implication that they were trying to go for with Yes Man, rather that he'd be capable of functioning by himself without some random schmuck pulling the same thing you pulled on Mr. House.

Traveling from Cottonwood Cove to Fortification Hill?

  • How did the raft get from Cottonwood Cove to Fortification Hill? Lucullus says that you'll be going "upstream" but there's no viable landing sites on the east side until you reach Hoover Dam, and I'm pretty sure you don't paddle over that.
    • Did you arrive at a dock? No, you just arrived at a gate. It's most likely you just sailed to a concealed zone, where you went up a hard-to-see pass until you arrived at the top. That could also be why you aren't asked to disarm until you actually get into the fort, as you could encounter beasties just outside the fort's walls that could attack you. Or it could just be that you teleported there, because it's something the developers assumed you just wouldn't think about.
    • If you look behind you when you are at the Fort, you will see that there are an endless sea of tents that you don't get to visit, meaning that the section of the Fort which you get to visit is just a small part of the entire camp. If you look closer, the parts of the camp that you can't visit extends all the way to the river bank. So it is Gameplay and Story Segregation that you don't get to see yourself first getting off the raft and walk all the way across the camp.


ED-E getting healed by stimpaks?

  • How exactly does using stimpaks on ED-E heal him?
    • Acceptable Breaks From Reality is in full force here. ED-E would be a lot less appealing as a companion if he couldn't be healed. Then again, he heals immediately after combat is over, so maybe he has some kind of on-board repair nanobots, which could be stimulated by the chemicals in a Stimpak. Mr. House says something like that when he talks about the onboard repair system on Mark-II Securitrons, which ED-E may have too.
    • Maybe he processes the the stimpaks and burns them to run internal repair? It would make sense for him to have something, but micro-circuitry was never very prominently researched before the nuclear war, though there's a lot prototypes in Nevada.
    • A lot of robots in the Fallout universe have biological components. ED-E is not a stock model eyebot, so his method of construction is basically unknown to the player.
      • WMG: ED-E is secretly a geth construct. I mean, medigel does work with Legion.

Using ED-E to fly around.

  • If Ed-E can carry up to 200 pounds, and I weigh less than 200 pounds (if being of a light frame and carrying minimum to no equipment) why can't I just hold on to ED-E and just fly around the whole game?
    • Gameplay and Story Segregation. What would even be the point? ED-E can barely fly above head level, and isn't even that fast. The developers didn't think of it, and even if they did, it wouldn't have been worth their time. Anyway, I'm sure there's a Game Mod out there that can help you.
    • That would look silly. Plus your arms would get tired.
    • ED-E travels slowly and, while more durable than his Capital Wasteland bretheren, still explodes when he takes too much damage. What would be the point when on foot, you are usually faster, better-armed, more durable, more agile, and are going to blend in better with the locals?


Why does the wasteland omelet require lakelurk meat?

  • Why does a wasteland omelet require lakelurk? In gameplay terms it means you have to haul in inventory an ingredient that's useless for anything else when the egg is already exotic enough, tough enough to get, and weighs 7 units. In story terms, there's no way the original recipe could've called for it; there weren't any lakelurks in the California valley.
    • How do you know there were no lakelurks in California? Just because they weren't seen in the first two games, does not mean they weren't there - you only explored a handful of settlements, after all. Besides, if mirelurks (which are almost genetically identical to lakelurks) can evolve on the other side of the continent, I'm sure lakelurks and their relatives could exist on the East Coast.
      • Maybe, but there definitely weren't any lakelurks in Modoc. The place was suffering a drought so bad that a glass of water was $1000.
      • All of you are overlooking a fairly simple explaination: The lakelurk meat is a substitution for things that can't be had in the Mohave.


The Karma system

  • Why do I lose karma for stealing from the legion? I don't lose karma when I steal from the van graffs? On a bigger scale why is It when I take something off some ones corpse 5 seconds after death no one bats an eye?
    • Most likely because this game is much more focus in Reputation instead of Karma, so that the developers just doesn't care or part as much attention to it as they did before.
      • That implies that they ever paid attention to the karma system... in truth, it's always been fairly broken. By its nature it assumes that certain actions are automatically "good" or "evil" regardless of context or motivation, which doesn't really fit with Fallout's Grey and Gray Morality. In Fallout3, karma essentially reflected your reputation with the Wasteland as a whole, but this is obviously now redundant thanks to the reputation system.


The small scale of the final battle at Hoover Dam.

  • Why was every factions contributions at Hoover Dam so small? The Brotherhood sends like 3 guys, the Khans send 4, and the Boomers only go on one bombing run. I know it's implied that the battle is bigger than what you see and that the factions are aiding each other in a battle that's actually happening across the map, but it feels like it should be more rewarding for getting everyone to cooperate, especially if you gurantee NCR victory.
    • If you listen to the NCR Emergency Radio during the battle, it mentions that the road to Hoover Dam was blocked, meaning that each side are only gets the few units that they have already stationed at the Dam to help without any reinforcements. Also, depending on how you handled some of the quests, the Legion would launch simultaneous attacks against Camp Forlorn Hope and Camp Golf, the Fiends would attack Camp McCarran, the Kings would start riots in the streets on Freeside and Westside, the Omerta would start a coup at the Strip, etc. Meaning that Hoover Dam is actually a small part of the entire battle for the Mojave.
    • But what if I killed all the fiends leaders (and most of the fiends too, for that matter), destroyed the legion outposts at Nelson and Cottonwood Cove so they'll have no positions to attack from, stopped the Omertas, and brokered peace between the NCR and Kings? Because I did that on every playthrough, it feels like it should have some sort of impact on the final battle.
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