I dunno what section to put this under.... I.W or L.E ... anyways its in here so what does it matter...

what i want to find is a compolation of known solid fuels for rockets...

so far i know of Amonpulver, Estes rocket powder [unsure of what it actually is]

could anybody here please enlighten me on this subject... and yes this may have been discussed in some other msg board, but then hasnt half of the H.E , L.E and E.P sections been over the same material... just a re-cap

my friend has made his own powders before but he simply refused to tell me how he made it... it worked fine... his rockets were quite impressive and the powder seemed to be of a high standard.

Also... does anyone know what i could do to find out the height reached by the rocket at its apogee, and possibly determine velocities... is there some kind of small mechanism i can put in the nozzle/head of the rocket to determine the height reached... if i can determine approx. values for this i can then work out velocity and all that shite... i wana compile some work together with notes on powder types, velocities and heights obtained for particular powers in relation to different weights of the rocket etc etc... this way everyone on here could determine what is a suitable fuel for a solid fuel rocket for their particular experiments.
Any information regarding powder compositions or height measuring devices will be greatly appreciated. NOTE - i have some kind of ancient device to determine the height, but im not too sure on accuracy. Its a triangle shaped thing which sits on the ground and yer does something... more on that later... :( :confused: <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<small>[ April 16, 2002, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Azazel ]</small>

You can buy all sorts of data acquisition boards for high-power rocketry, including altimeters, accelerometers, and even miniature cameras. Search around for rocketry club pages & suppliers. The device you're referring to is most likely a sextant. You can use it to determine the angle between the horizon and the apogee of the rocket. You then make the assumption that the rocket went straight up (or you figure in the estimated drift), and use the angle and the distance between you and the launch site to determine the vertical distance: height = (distance to site * tan(angle of inclination). Crude, but it works pretty well when you have decent distances involved, as that tends to minimize the % impact of any error.

I hate to be petulant, but there is so much information on rocketry on the web - sooooooo much.

Also, you need to kick this "friend" up the arse - how does he expect you to have rocket duels if you can't get one to work?

To measure the height, you need some geometry (it's a lot easier). HAve a friend 500m away measure the angle the rocket reaches and it should be simple to work out the height! :p

If you know the angle from your rocket to the ground and the distance between where you measure the angle to the launch site you could calculate the aprox. height(if the rocket flies straight up).

This is only one of the sites out there: <a href="http://nakka-rocketry.net/" target="_blank">http://nakka-rocketry.net/</a>
Search and you'll find hundred of other good pages, covering everything you ever wanted to know.

Edit: You post too fast for me!

<small>[ April 16, 2002, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: xoo1246 ]</small>

I heard that S=1/2AT squared (don't know how to make the little exponents). S=Altitude, A=32 (gravity), and T= the time it took to fall. The fall time is, of course, if you don't have a parachute and begins at the apogee. So lets say I launched one that fell for 17 seconds. 17 squared = 289, times 32 = 9248, divided by 2 = 4624. This is in feet by the way. 5280 feet in a mile. And you can order an altimeter from <a href="http://www.pyrotek.org" target="_blank">www.pyrotek.org</a> for 90 USD's. It will let you seclect the ejection delay in incriments of 4 seconds (I think) and up to 12 seconds. Sounds fancy, but before I get one I will have to prove to myself that I have a reliable parachute (90 dollars is a lot to me)! Also, to The entire Forum, my cousin has recently bought the HRP guide thing from Pyrotek.

HIGH POWER ROCKETRY - COMBO PACK

You get a beautifully printed fully illustrated 160 page book which includes lots of photos. You receive a video so you can see the motors being cast and assembled right before your eyes!

"TEST SHOTS, HIGH POWERED LAUNCHES - record altitude flights by amateurs. The tape is awesome! Also included is a software package for your computer that has everything you ever wanted to know about rockets - propellant formulas, how to design your own motors from scratch, figure out center of gravity, static and dynamic centers of pressure that will insure your rockets will fly straight - So much included we can't list it all here. If your not into designing things by yourself don't worry many proven motors and model rockets designs are included in the book - so you know they'll work the first time."

"ROCKET ALTIMITER (COMPLETED UNIT)
User can set to fire main parachute at apogee (peak altitude
User can set to fire a small drogue chute at apogee with a backup if necessary
User can set to fire main chute at apogee with a backup if necessary
User programmable Mach flight inhibit timer (switch selectable to 4, 8 and 12 second delays)
Reports peak altitude - accurate to the foot upon recovery
Ejection charge continuity verification before flight
Igniter test mode to pre-test and pre-fire on ground before flight
Operational status LED indicator - lets you know which mode the altimeter is set for
Surface mounted parts on a preprinted circuit board - very compact - ready to install in your rocket. All you need is a 9 volt battery and electric igniter. Ship wt.1 lbs."

70 USD's, sounds worth it. Anyway, I will be there in a little over a month so I can burn the CD, copy the tape and I don't know what do do with the book except read it. And I have seen a rocket at my school where the nosecone has a little lump in it and it had a camera in there. Really cool. I can't remember the name now so I will tell you tomorrow. I think it had an X in it. Well good luck and I am sure you know this but never use chlorates (well if you wanna keep your launch rod/pad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ). Bye.

<small>[ April 16, 2002, 08:27 PM: Message edited by: Cricket ]</small>

You can easilly predict the max altitude of your rocket, but it will take sophisticated measuring equipment to measure the exact area of your rocket at all points, so instead, grab a fat straw, and a protractor.

This is probably what the people above are talking about.

Attach the straw to the top of the protractor with lots of tape, try to make it as straight and paralell with the protractor as possible.

<img src="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/protract.jpg" alt="" />

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/protract.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/protract.jpg</a> (copy and paste link)

Place a 20cm string through a hole just like in the picture, tie it to itself then tape the string to the back of the protractor. If theres no hole, just lay the string flat against the protractor (even with 90deg.) and try to tape it as neatly as possible. At the other end of the string tie a washer of a decent size (I used 1/2") then tape the washer to the string securely.

If you intend to use a high powered rocket, and are assuming it will go very high, you could also attach the protractor to a zoom lens from a camera, or a rifle scope, or a monocle.

First measure the baseline distance, this is the distance between the person holding the altitude measuring device, and the launcher.

Now Follow a test rocket of the exact same proportions/weight up into the sky as its launched, keeping the rockets nose sighted in the straw. When its about to flip over, it has reached its peak altitude, hold the string against the protractor exactly where it is at this moment, record this angle, then subtract from 90deg.

Okay, now that you've lauched the rocket, and recorded its angualr ditance (the protractor deal), and you know the baseline distance, you're ready to calculate its height.

Height = B x TAD

Or Height = Baseline x tangent of angular distance

Example;

Baseline = 200ft
Angular distance = 70deg.
tangent of 70deg. = 2.75

So;
height = B x TAD, or heigth equals 200ft. x 2.75
height = 550ft.

To find the tangent of angular distance, use a calculater, or use this plagarized graph from Estes;
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/tabletang.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5421/tabletang.jpg</a>

So in other words, assuming you have picture perfect 90deg. flight, and you are standing 200ft. away, the distance from the launcher to the rocket, is its height, and you observing this rocket from a baseline of 200ft. forms a triangle of sight, which can be measured.

And since Velocity = Acceleration/distance traveled you can also determine the speed of the rocket fairly easilly.

<small>[ April 17, 2002, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

that device rules...thanx guys :)

Here, this looks good. <a href="http://www.hpr.org.uk/science/qref.htm" target="_blank">http://www.hpr.org.uk/science/qref.htm</a>

Estes Rocket fuel is pressed BP. My friends and I are working on a rocket as we speak. After doing quite a few burn rate tests with KN03 and NaN03 oxidisers we found that a 1-1-1 (KN03/Sucrose/Sulfur) burns fastest for KN03 based and a 1-2 (NaN03/Sucrose) burns fastest for NaN03 based. Out of the two the 1-2 NaN03 based burnt the fastest. Hopefully in a few days we can finish a rocket so I can post some results.

Here is a large list of pyrotechnic rocket comps:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/extremepyro2/compoDB.html#chapter1" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/extremepyro2/compoDB.html#chapter1</a>

I just finished the engine of my rocket. Its 1-2 NaN03/Sucrose. I mixed it with 91% alchohol and fit it into a 1'' Diameter by 1' long pvc pipe. Im planning on just attaching the wings to the engine the first time, just because im testing more the mixure than the Design. The core is 3/16 ''.

Photo(s) *More in the next few days*
<a href="http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?selected=35959" target="_blank">http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?
selected=35959</a>

UPDATE: Ive uploaded the final product. For scale Ive placed a quarter in most of the pictures. The other picture is of my launch equipment.

<small>[ April 26, 2002, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: HOOPS123 ]</small>

The pics look extremely similar to what im making -- I look forward to seeing the rest of the pictures -- damn I wish I had a digital camera...

I'm doing some testing with BP rockets currently, thinking of moving on to some Ammonium perchlorate/PVC/Al rockets later.

Today I bought a little cheap stove so I can use the Nakka Method. The other method failed terribly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

When you guys make rockets you might want to try spinning ones. They are called "stinger missiles". They are like a normal rocket motor but usually shorter. They have an extra nozzle in the side of the rocket to make it spin and provide stability. They go very straight and far. Dan Williams has a good procedure for making them on his site. I dreamt I used rammed ball milled meal powder added to KNO3/sucrose as the grain and it worked very well. I don't like using melted sucrose/kno3 because it goes bad quickly and is hard to pour into small rockets. Even kno3/dextrose (dextrose is used in beer making) is hard to pour and burns slower but it does keep better.

As for rocket fuels, the space shuttle uses ammonium perchlorate/aluminum and something -butadine (polyisobutadine?) as a binder. When I dream of making rammed black powder rockets, I have only had success with them without nozzles and of course with a core. There are zinc sulfur rockets that some people like. Some people even make H3 rockets (potassium perchlorate and charcoal I think)! Look for the "comp-db.html" that some people have on their sites (I think practical pyrotechnics has it). I think it was Noltair who did some great work on smokless powder rockets.

Try signing up at passfire, if you search google in rec.pyrotechnics then you will be able to find information for a guest account. It has a number of formulas for drivers and I think rockets too.

<small>[ May 25, 2002, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Sparky ]</small>

Since no-one seems to notice my post in "rockets", I'll post it here instead:

I have been experimenting with small BP rockets for a while.
Core burners in plastic pipe with PVC nozzles.
Since I have access to ammonium perchlorate(AP in this post) I'm planing to test a AP/Al/PVC engine when I get my ball mill and some milling media.
Dhzugasvili: When you casted your engines, how do you avoid bubbles in the cast?
Here is some pictures of a protype nozzle, it should be longer and maybe contain some internal steel parts in the core to avoid too heavy nozzle erosion. Maybe one could add Al (or dry, milled clay powder) to the PVC in the nozzle to make it more heat tolerant, what do you think?
Here are the pictures:
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/nozzle01.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/nozzle01.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/nozzle02.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/nozzle02.jpg</a>
<a href="http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/nozzle03.jpg" target="_blank">http://w1.478.telia.com/~u47802930/nozzle03.jpg</a>

Has anyone got a hold of the formula for the HTPB/ammonium nitrate rocket motors that Cricket mentioned above?
I've got the ingredients but I need the formula. If anyone has it I would appreciate it they would post the info. Thanx

I can call my cousin and ask what all the book and CD says. He is never home, but I can get to him somehow. I may also need to include the way to make it, like how to mix it all up. I'll see what I can do.