Hi all. The sten has been talked about before but I am wondering if anyone has succesfuly made one.

The plans in the PMJB vol.1 look pretty good but is it worth buying all the neccesary tools and materials to make one? Thanks eveyone.
PS Its good to be back.

Historically, several assasination attempts have been delayed/avoided because these fuckers jam so often.

Also, the thumb hole stock is kind've gay, this is probably to make the weapon concealable, but it probably hurts like hell, and would leave a tell-tale ring around the shooters finger.

Its a simple, cheap design though.

<a href="http://www.homeusers.prestel.co.uk/history/sten/index.htm" target="_blank">This</a> site has a history of the Sten. Note how the unreliability was usually down to the magazine design, not the actual gun itself.

As to whether anyone's actually built a Sten, there's a mailing list dedicated to it <a href="http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sten9mm/" target="_blank">here!</a>

J

I can't attest to the accuracy of those blueprints,but I have experients with this weapon(I began to reverse engineer one awhile back but hell knows where I put the figs)Are these the prints that were available on wetworx.com?

The sten mk2 is a reliable weapon provided that healthy mags are used.There is not much to go wrong with this design mechanically.However the loop stock is more comfortable(but slippery on the shoulder) on the hand than the t-design.I'm a lefty so the mag port was always a hazzard I watched for.
I wore leather gloves when fireing this weapon.
If one were to build a sten gun,use your imagination and simplify the trigger mechanism to only trigger and sear(fa only).I feel the sear design is little more work in milling op than nesseccary=simplify the lines.
The improvsed barrel latch looks kind of flimsy and somthing to watch out for.but then I would press fit and pin the barrel on a homemade design.

Actually, I'm working on a sten gun right now.
I downloaded the plans availdable at <a href="http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/" target="_blank">http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/</a> but found that the sten requires quite a bit of turning and milling, since I don't have acsess to a milling machine and can't use the lathe at work for anything more than turning a simple blank for the bolt, I decided to simplify the drawings. And as I was allready going to alter it's looks, I decided to incorporate some of my own design ideas, proper pistol grip, retractable buttstock, M16-style carrying handle which also acts as a guard for the cocking lever, verticle magazine and a safety which blocks the sear. I'm planning on posting these machinist drawings on the web for free when I'm finished along with the plans for a MAC10 copy made from rectangular steel tubing (the mac only requires welding and hand tools). Let me know if this sounds interesting.
If anyone has the drawings of the MAC10 selective fire trigger group I'd be grateful, if not I'll have to design my own.http://home.no/sosanthjemmeside/Bilder/Warthog.gif

Yes, I'd be very interested indeed. Please keep us all informed :cool:

J

I have been told by a buddy of mine that, "The Sten gun has only 7 moving parts". is this true?
The Stens seem to be all 9mm. Are making yours of the same caliber? do you have any aspartaions to make it a supressed weapon?is it going to be a claw used to extract the spent shell?
I am very interested in seeing your plans aswell as hering about your progress. keep up the good work.

It is Possible that that is true, I do not know much about the sten gusn but I can name some of the moving parts the sten gun will have: operating handle (aka cocking lever), trigger, sear assembly bolt/firing pin assembly, extractor (may be part of bolt) trigger, recoil spring"s"? and of course you have the magazine clip and the bullets themselves, but I can't think of any else right now.

Originally posted by Xtramad
I'm planning on posting these machinist drawings on the web for free when I'm finished along with the plans for a MAC10 copy made from rectangular steel tubing (the mac only requires welding and hand tools). Let me know if this sounds interesting.

I'm interested. Could you post them please?

Well it looks like he can't post them, he is banned. I have no idea why.

The tendency of the Sten to jam at crucial moments might not be such a bad thing...the 2 Czech SOE parachutists tasked to assassinate Reinhard Heydrich in 1943 experienced such a jam and one of them had to lob a hand-grenade into his open-topped staff car. The explosion didn't kill him immediately, but some of the horsehair filling in the car's luxurious leather uphostery found its' way into his bloodstream and caused him to suffer an agonising death by blood poisoning quite some time later.

Hurrah for jamming stenguns is what I say.

I just got a firearms licence and I bought a second hand Winchester Lever .44mag, it has to be the meanest thing I have used other than 12G solids, it puts inch holes in 1/2" steel!
Sorry about that, I am still getting over how powerful the rifle is, anyway since I got 250 rnds of .44mag I was thinking about a .44mag subgun design. This at the moment is entirely conceptual, but I got inspired by the H&K UMP45. Has anyone got suggestions or compliments on how stupid this idea is? I would want to use a locked closed bolt for accuracy(high pressures caused by magnums) and safety and a custom barrel of approx 10", folding stock, open iron sights and semi and full auto operation; I am guessing I'll be using gas operation too...
Is there other magnum firing subguns out there or are they just too expensive to run??

Making any kind of homemade gun to shoot a .44mag is a very bad idea. Its a very high energy high pressure round, and is guarenteed to burst just about any pipe you come across.

If you want it to fire a fairly large bullet, go with the .38 special (standard pressure). Its a relativly low pressure round, and its rimmed. Im hoping to make a .38 special single shot handgun sometime soon. I already made and test fired a .22 zipgun. I just havent taken any pictures yet.

As NickSG said, the .44Mag is a very high pressuere round and shouldn't be used in homemade firearms unless you know what you are doing. If you use a commercial barrel you should be OK though, you should be able to get one here. (http://www.mab.com.au/products/barrels/default.htm)

Most subguns use rimless ammunition types, the .44 Mag is rimmed so you would need to design a new extraction mechanism for whatever gun you are basing yours on.

9mm or .22LR are the cartridges of choice for homemade subs, you should read the "Home Workshop Firearms" volumes 1 to 5 (on the FTP) if you want to learn more about homemade subs, handguns, and machine pistols in these calibres.

This was only a concept as such, but I have made several succeessful and reliable .22lr "zipuns".
I know of Australian barrel suppliers, for the 'conceptual' extraction mechanism I got inspired from the breech block of the Winchester lever gun, This has a lip that catches the rim of the cartridge and opposing this there is an extractor hook which graps the opposite rim. As you move the laver through its unloading/chambering path (imagine that the chamber is empty) as the lever comes back, the breech block (bolt) moves back until it clears the first round in the tube magazine allowing the round to rise up the face of the breech block, the rim slides into the lip and the extractor hook. blah blah fire the weapon, pulling the lever back after firing pulls the cartridge from the chamber until it reaches a point when the extractor hook is released from the rim and the shell is flung out the side opening.
I do undestand what I a proposing here and this would be more than just an improvised firearm, it would be a serious approach to constructing a reliable home defence weapon because current regimes in this country (parts of sydney are becoming rather dangerous)

xyz:

"Most subguns use rimless ammunition types, the .44 Mag is rimmed so you would need to design a new extraction mechanism for whatever gun you are basing yours on."

"9mm or .22LR are the cartridges of choice for homemade subs"

Try to avoid contradiction, although your sentiments are very correct. I wouldn't fire .44mag in an smg, the rim will cause problems not only in extraction, it will also make it more difficult to design a magazine for. However, you could gain some information on smgs feeding rimmed ammunition through the Bill Holmes Home Workshop book on the .22LR machine pistol, and also on the informational (thanks for uploading it jelly) Home Workshop Prototype Firearms.

You really need to decide what you actually want - a pistol calibre semi-automatic carbine, or a SMG. Btw, for information on using larger bullets in an SMG (.45ACP) check the minuteman blueprints.

Let's not forget the 7.62X25 round. A few old combloc SMG's use this hot round such as the PPSH
series, the CZ-24 and 26 series for a few. I have found that the 7.62X25 round to be quite a hot, almost magnum power round. Some STENs were made in this caliber using a different barrel and the original 9mm mag. The 7.62 fed better since it is basically a necked down 9mm round with easier feed config due to its shouldered cartridge case.

Hi there,

Ammonal, I just bought a Marlin .44 U/L, the cowboy model. Haven't managed to shoot it yet, though, since I can't find anywhere that has .44 in stock! :( You are right about the cost - in the UK, 100 .44 magnum rounds costs a staggering £70! That's 70p each. I am beginning to doubt I can afford to run the U/L, let alone anything more fancy. .22 can be got for £30 a thousand!

You might want to look at getting a reloading press, but I hear Aus has some pretty stiff restrictions on everything now. Very like the uk, except we don't have controls on *all* ammo components yet, and you have a vague chance of getting a pistol.

Anyway, hope she shoots alright! You can crank the rounds through your u/l pretty dammed quick once it is a bit worn in. It takes a lot longer to reload!

Back on topic, I would agree that firing a .44 Magnum on auto would be bad, but you could always cut the charge down to that of a .44 Special (much the same as .357 Magnum becomes .38 Special) and use those. They are subsonic, too, which cuts the blast and noise quite a lot.

I would stick with .22 if I were ever going to try something like your suggestion, otherwise you will barely be able to pick it up fully loaded! 100 .44 weighs a hell of a lot more than 100 .22! Also, consider the recoil. You will soon get used to shooting the .44 as fast as you can aim, as that really is the limit, with the recoil from such a powerful round (Yes, I know it isn't like a 7.62 or anything, but it is still the most powerful common hangun round in the world!) you can have worked the action before you get your sight picture back.

Yes I must apologise for using the term subgun (.44mag pistol round) when this concept would be a select fire carbine, I think that the .44mag is a great round and in a good barrel of approx 10-14" barrel the cartridge would perform very well in close quarters and at slightly longer ranges.
I guess you could say that this is employing a 'shock and awe' tactic, for if someone decides to pull a 9mm handgun and start firing, unless the shooter is seasoned to the blast of a .44mag then I think that a shot or two in their general direction or just over their heads is going to send them into a state of shock let alone if you shot the person then they are in a whole world of bad.

Yes I already have a magazine design sketched out and I am looking into higher capacity feed options like snail mags and drums. I would not be thinking of sustained fire, just higher capacity for the sake of less reloading in a situation when having 50 rounds loaded ready would increase my chances of survival somewhat instead of reloading in 20 round box mags one at a time (I wouldnt like to find myself in that situation that I would have to rely on 50 rounds but in the unstable world that we live in, the chances of that are increasing).

What kind of penetration of body armour does a .44mag achieve? From 25 meters it puts a 1" diameter hole in 1/2" steel, so I figure it has got some sting and knockdown power.

Yes Jacks complete thankyou for the statement it is the 'most common handgun round' this makes it easier for me (with my firearms licence, because I own a pistol caliber rifle I can buy ammo) and reloading is alot easier to get equipment and munition components legally.

Im pretty sure a level III vest can withstand .44 magnum FMJ bullets.

I'm no ballistics expert, but I'm pretty sure a hit on the chest from a .44mag, even one that doesn't penetrate the vest, would probalby put a man down. Internal bruising, maybe a spinal injury. At the very least, he has something to think about as he tries to breathe and stand back up.

Sorry about that Zaibatsu, I was just pointing out that .22LR is a good choice for homemade subs.

The thompson is .45ACP so you should also be able to get some info from those blueprints.

All standard pistol calibres can be stopped fairly easily by body armour because the bullet is low velocity (compared to rifle calibres) and has a high frontal area compared to it's overall mass.

If you want an armour piercing weapon, you will need to use rifle ammunition types (.223, 5.45mm) or high velocity pistol ammunition types (5.7mm, .224 Boz, .221 Fireball, etc.).

Yes it was as I suspected - the effect of a .44mag would be reduced by body armour, but this has me thinking. What about the higher velocities achieved by the longer barrel, would this give you a slightly better chance of penetration?
I certainly believe Kid Orgo's comment about the stopping power of a .44mag slug (all my rounds are hollow points) that even if body armour stopped it, the person would surely be shocked enough to allow time for a follow up or escape.
Another issue I have is with the degree of muzzle rise I get on a 20" barrel is about 2.5" rise at the muzzle, this prompts me to research and probably design an efficient muzzle compensator. For even in the case of firing semi auto, I do not wish to have to pull the gun back down to earth after each shot. And in the event of full auto firing I would certainly hope that the muzzle compensator is highly effective.
I have finished researching reloading my own brass and overall it appears that it would cut the cost of buying loaded rounds by AU$0.40, currently it would cost AU$48 for 50 rounds of .44mag hollow points, that would save me about AU$20 / 50 rounds! This would also give me the option of using the suggestion of Jack's Complete to reduce the loading of the cartridge from magnum to .44 special.
Another thought that I have been considering is a using a custom barrel from an Australian barrel supplier that would thread into the receiver, this would allow me to possess a series of barrels for different pistol calibers. This of course would mean that each barrel would have to be tapped for the gas operation but that can be arranged ahead of time and then when the situation arrises requiring the use of the weapon the barrel is changed to suit the ammunition and the conditions.
The action being driving by a piston system similar to that of the AK series would be unaffected by utilising magnum load cartridges but for standard, more common cartridges adjustments or slight modifications may have to be made to the action and/or gas regulating system.
Since I am finished my major exams I might do some working drawings and sketch some ideas that I have.

How much time will take making sten if I have everything (tools, materials)? Maybe someone has shopping list :D with parts (ex. 0,5m of steel pipe, etc.). I want to make one, but plans I found are incomplete or too hard for me...

If they are too hard then maybe you shouldn't be doing it.

Radon has already warned you one more useless post and he'll ban you, you better hope he doesn't see this one.

Ya, they are hard, if I can't see anything on the plate, they are. I started making Sten, but I don't have all of materials. I'll tell you when it will be finished.

xyz: I thought this forum is for helping, not flaming. You are making this site "The Explosives and Flame Forum". I don't think you can count posts with only flame. Go to water cooler if you want to chat with me about my faults.

Steyr,

It isn't about flaming you, it is about the fact that we don't want a forum full of things like:

"Yeah, I tried that but it didn't work" or "plans I found are incomplete or too hard for me..."

because it tells us nothing, and adds nothing. Fill your post with details, otherwise it isn't worth my time reading it. Example: What does
"Ya, they are hard, if I can't see anything on the plate, they are."
mean?

A post that said

"I have Luty's book, but I can't get a taper reamer anywhere, has anyone got any ideas?"

would be far better, as then we could help you, and others thinking of following your work would maybe think "Well, I should see if I can get that before I buy anything else on the list." or perhaps they would look at other sets of instructions, rather than Luty's.

Anyway, on with my post:

I just bought two books off Amazon, purely for something I am writing. One is "Bazooka: Build your own" and the other is Luty's book, "Expedient homemade firearms: The 9mm machine gun". The main reason for getting Luty's book was that it was mentioned on the forum, and it is a masterpiece. The design is absolute genius! Of course, it could be flawed, but I don't see any. Of course, I haven't made it!

I also bought it as a measure of support to the guy... If the News of the World get away with making guns out of deacts to show how "easy" it is, then Luty should have had the same "Public interest" arguements accepted by the courts.

The homemade bazooka book is pretty short, and quite interesting. Anyone else seen/read it? Anyone else got thoughts on Luty's design?

Ok ok end this flaming! I have downloaded right now Home Workshop firearms: The 9mm machine gun, with "resistance manual" in html. I must say that is great. It has simple drawings for someone who can't understand structure of Sten or Thompson. I'll give an example:

http://steyrphotos.w.interia.pl/shotgun.gif
Simple Improvised 12 gauge Shotgun
Materials Required:
Wood 2" x 4" x 32"
3/4" nominal size water or gas pipe 20" to 30" long threaded on one end.
3/4" steel coupling
Solid 3/4" pipe plug
Metal strap (1/4" x 1/16" x 4")
Duct tape or metal strapping and screws
3 wood screws and screwdriver
Flat head nail 6D or 8D
Hand drill
Saw or knife
File
Elastic Bands

It's easy, and making trigger for it isn't a problem


EDIT:
Now I realised that zip I downloaded contains also Expedient Homemade SMG - That's GREAT!!! And easier than Home Workshop firearms: The 9mm machine gun. 64mb of pure knowledge.

I am currently working on one of these it will be sorta short that is the length of pipe I had o well I will post what happens sorry no videos

Dana, it's hard to understand you. You are working on Sten, other Smg or shotgun?

Tommorow I will start making stock and collecting stuff needed to make my own shotgun, then simple semi auto, and then SMG. I'll make photos, and post them here. Bye

"I have Luty's book, but I can't get a taper reamer anywhere, has anyone got any ideas?"

Jack what type of reamer you looking for?
I may have one around the house if its the type im thinking of.
Contact me and let me know the specs of what you want.

Steyr as for your interest in the sten plans there are several ways to find them,
The links i posted on the 12ga ammo thread give both the sten plans along with a reciever printout as well as the mac.

If you buy the parts kit it only takes basic mechanical skill to make the reciever or if you are skilled in metal working i also have the complete plans for you to machine your own from scratch.

Thanks Phaid, but I'm not skilled in mechanics :D . Now I'm working at shotgun and collecting stuff for the Expedient Homemade SMG (book is very, very good - 31mb/pdf). Go to thread Weapons Plans (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=655) and if you want something, mail me

PHAID,

Thanks for the offer, but I was just using the taper reamer as an example for how to post a good post!

I ain't making any of these things, as I don't fancy doing prison time, when I have or have access to all these things and more! I leave it to others who want to run the risk.

As it stands, however, there is no law (yet) in the UK about helping people work on theoretical ideas. :)

Hi, Steyr do you have a URL for the download you specified earlier "Home Workshop firearms: The 9mm machine gun"...?
I have some stuff scanned and other interesting things I would like to upload but it seems the FTP (either of the ip's I have found on here ) are not working,nor any of the torrents...
Please excuse my ignorance as I am new here and rather paranoid...!
Thanks
aj

Why fabricate a copy of the sten? There exist better constructions. E.g. the swedish Carl Gustav SMG is a more simple construction, was in use in a lot of armies and worked well. According to homemade guns I would prefer this construction but there exist more simple plans like the Minuteman SMG (cal .45) and the SMG of Luty. I´m of the opinion that a combination of Lutys model with the Minuteman (bolt ) with a rifled barrel in cal 9 mm would be the most convenient solucion.

Steyr,
your profile doesn't mention where you live. This information is definitely crucial to building a sten. WHY??? because here in the good ol'USA, you can buy a parts kit and then buy a bonded template receiver tube. cut the holes in the tube and then use the plans as an assembly guide, no machining required. There is a bit of welding involved but hey, thats a cake walk. Both items can be had for less than $100 total from various dealers in Shotgun News. magazines are also available starting at $9.99........

However let me point out something to all the newbies and any kewl lamers who maybe lurking.

In the USA, the construction of a full auto weapon, the possession of an unlicensed buildable receiver, or the possession of a parts kit and and a bonded template receiver tube (which qualifies as intent and therefore prosecutable) can qualify you for the grand prize of:

3 hots and a cot for 10+ years in a FEDERAL prison.
a $10,000 fine plus all assorted legal fees
a close personal relationship w/ a large, hairy and probably bad smelling cellmate
and who knows what else under the new homeland security act......

all that for a lousy hundred bucks.....

building an unlicensed full auto is not something you can brag about (even here....nobody and I mean NOBODY should know. Ask P.A. Luty how he got caught....), show off, or really enjoy as you will always be looking over you shoulder when you take it out of its hidey hole. This is serious business and should be left to those who fully understand the ramifications and potential consequences of their actions, and are willing to pay them. Because if you get caught, it WILL come down to lethal gunplay, and if you get away they will NEVER stop hunting you.

food for thought.........

Guns are tools to be used for a specific job, and then immediately disposed of, NOT something to keep around!

Weapons lock their users into a predictable pattern of usage. This is how I've overcome (bare-handed) gun armed wanna-be thugs several times, because they thought that a gun made them invincible, a delusion they suffered from until they meet me. :)

They less often you use a weapon, the less habituated you become to using it, thus the less likely to develop patterns that can be used against you, or that'll make you predictable.

And something like a sten gun is really inappropriate for the most part. It's highly inaccurate (spray-and-pray), gobbles up ammo, and is a life sentence nowadays (thanks to Patriot Act).

Better to use a semi-auto, regardless of caliber, and develop excellent marksmanship skills so that you are 'One Shot, One Kill' lethally accurate. All the true gunfighters of the western era were. Become a master of your weapon, don't let it master you.

good points!

full autos are best obtained thru legal means and used for ammusement.
however, reading and examining all the various plan books is quite fun in itself. at least for a gadget nerd like myself......

A good quality pistol or shotgun will handle all your defensive needs....


combined of course w/ a fair amount of practice.

A STEN submachine gun is a selective fire weapon, it can be fired full or semi auto.

And a STEN gun or similar submachine gun is one of the easiest to build guns, You don't even need machine shop for building one. Combine Luty's design with the simple trigger group of a STEN. You got a multi shot weapon which can be switched between semi and full auto by just pressing a button and which could be handled with ease.

I really would like to see a similar simple design for a multi shot shot gun.

Btw, most shootings occour within a distance of 5 m or less so a rifled barrel isn't necessary.

you will need a mill and or a lathe if you start from scratch building a sten.
but not if you start w/ a parts kit. you will need to weld either way you go.
heck you can build a full auto weapon w/ a hacksaw and a file as your primary tools.....it'll just take longer.

as to the selective fire part. I am not disputing that. most full auto designs are in reality selective fire. (full or semi) some even have burst options.

my points all have to do w/ the legality and consequences of possessing an unlicensed class 3 weapon. Also, I completely agree with NBK's stance that you would be better served by a *legal* semi auto weapon or (my preference) a pump shotgun.

possessing a kit or plans is just part of the equation. building is another part. fully understanding what it is you are doing (a highly illegal act) is an equally important part.

You are talking about the legal situation in the USA. But there are just a few other countries around the world as well.

You might think about to consider that there are places where one cannot legaly obtain a firearm might it be semi or full auto.

I'm wondering usually there is very little discussion about legallities in E&W. To make myself clear I'm talking about the technical aspect of building a gun not the legal thingie.

As you said it by yourself it is possible and feasible to build a STEN gun or at least a very similiar design from scratch with out a lathe or mill even without a welder (I'm not talking here about an exact copy or replica of a STEN). Have look at Luty's design and use the simple trigger group of a STEN as I wrote in my previous post.

Btw, the Luty as well as the STEN can be build as a semi auto only weapon by just not grinding the bolt body flat at one side. Only the flat side of the bolt body provides for full auto capabilty in the STEN.

Hi all. The sten has been talked about before but I am wondering if anyone has succesfuly made one.

.


I'd have to say ...ehhhummm!!!! A close personal friend of mine has assembled both the Mk.2 and the Mk.% and to tell you in advance...... unless you have some excellent welding skills or are quite handy with a mig or a tig wire feed welder... your gonna run into only one main hurdle to climb....
The ejector hook that needs to be as solid as hell to insure a working sten replica arm.
4130 seamless steel tubing is thin shit to say the least and aything aside from an experienced welder will either burn through the reciever or weld it into place only to have it cycle 2 to maybe 32 rounds before it gets stripped off the reciever and at $5 a pop it's a bitch of a lesson to learn. Try taking the stripped reciever (preferrably before you cut the bolt handle slot or weld on the front barrel bushing ) down to a local trustworthy looking machineist and with only the ejection port and the magazine port cut, ask him to weld it in place and be sure to show him exactly how it needs to be. $40 with no reciept was all my local machinist charged and I told him it was for a paintball gun I'm looking to redesign.

But aside from that...FUCK the Mk.3!!!!!! unless you care to have the extra bullshit un-removable barrel on your felony waiting to happen machine-gun...oooopps! I mean machine gun replica...heheh :)

Tomu,
I realize there are other countries in the world. I didn't fail world geography....it was close but I did pass....lol!

Seriously though
My point is simply that you must be aware of all local and national laws pertaining to what you are doing regardless of which country you live in. Finland ( for example) has much more lenient laws about full autos, BUT , the U.K. is actually more strict.

building an illegal firearm (regardless of country) has very sever consequences if you get caught. I am not saying "don't build", I'm just saying this isn't a game for the faint of heart. This is quite serious and you should think twice ( maybe even 30 times) before you jump in....

Most of what’s discussed at E&W can get you a felony charge and land you in prison. I totally agree with you that everybody should know what he is doing and what consequences could come out of this.

Laws are made by mostly corrupt politicians some laws make sense others don’t. In my opinion most gun laws which prohibit the aquireing, possesion etc. of guns are rubbish this laws won’t prevent the illegal use of guns by criminals at all.

To guerrero:
>>I´m of the opinion that a combination of Lutys model with the Minuteman (bolt ) with a rifled barrel in cal 9 mm would be the most convenient solucion.<<

I managed to download the plans for the minuteman submachine gun and looked it through. The bolt for the minuteman smg as it is shown in the plans need to be machined with a lathe and with a mill.

Luty’s bolt is a very much simplified design of the minuteman bolt. His redesign does away with machining you just have to drill two holes and even they can be omitted, it also does away with the extractor. So Luty’s bolt is much more easier to build than the original minuteman bolt. I really don’t know what you are talking about or better what do you think you would gain by the use of the original minuteman bolt.

As to the use of a rifled barrel if you can get a rifled barrel blank use it but if you don’t have access to a rifled barrel it’s just not worth the effort to rifle one by yourself, for a smg firing from an open bolt like Luty’s, the minuteman or the STEN. Those guns aren’t precision weapons they spray bullets everywhere with or without a rifled barrel, for the short distance use of a smg a smoothbore is good enough.

Tomu,
I agree completely about the gun laws and their detrimental effects.

as to rifling a barrel, here is food for thought....
IF!!!! ( and that is a big one, I'll admit) you can aquire/make a smoothbore barrel that is of the proper bore for the projectile used, you should achieve 5"-10" groups @ 100yds. Most shotguns will provide 5" groups w/ smoothbores. 5" to 15" or even 20" is perfectly acceptable if you train yourself to aim center of mass.....

Chamber,trunion and bolt tolerances are your next big accuracy variables, also dont forget trigger pull. stiff gritty triggers will cause the gun to move before and during firing.

K,

If you want to read about someones attempts to build Luty's creation try http://home-smg.pochta.ru/ Luty's are about the simplest plans I've seen, and it looks like a long, difficult and very illegal trip. For what is basically a fun toy.

That site has a new address, it was originally posted here by a person going by the name of "xload".

It does seem to be taking him a while as he first posted the site here last summer.

A STEN submachine gun is a selective fire weapon, it can be fired full or semi auto.

:cool:
Well this is kinda true. Even the best sten mk.2 swim has built and/or shot, (in semi or R ) always seemed to let two or even three shots rip out the muzzle with one pull of the trigger. When shooting, I'd grasp the ventilated barrel shroud, never the magazine like every single idiot I ever let shoot them with me. Even though the repeating shots in semi were probably builder misalignment errors rather than the sten mk.2 being prone to discharging rapid fire in semi auto mode.

Also, I read above that someone said using a sten or a full auto weapon will get us citizens life inprisonment in the usa due to the patriot act....Is this true? :eek:

All the more reason to leave no witnesses !

"I have Luty's book, but I can't get a taper reamer anywhere, has anyone got any ideas?"

JC

I know you weren't asking about the reamer but I had a similar problem and someone suggested a novel dream(?) solution.

Get a length of @9mm steel rod and cut a notch in one end (like an arrow notch). Next saw off a piece of that 3mm saw blade you used elsewhere in the plans and grind it to the chamber measurements in the book (9.65mm - 10mm) - actually it would be better to get some additional measurements from the web. Then put a cutting edge edge on opposite sides. Silver solder or JB Weld it into the notch so it looks like and arrowhead with a blunt tip. This should work for one or two barrels. I could never find a 1:50 taper reamer in Aus in the correct size nor are 9mm reamers around to borrow. Beside this method really is expedient.

Another idea I had was to take a standard 10mm drill bit and using a diamond stone attached to a jig/frame set to the correct angle grind it until the end is 9.65mm and using this an an expedient reamer.

Crucible

If the chamber isn't cut to the right dimensions a lot of trouble happens. Feeding, extraction, ignition problems abound.

Without proper (special) machines and a lot, really a lot of experience in tool making it is almost impossible to build/grind a chamber reamer to proper dimensions from scratch by yourself which will cut a proper chamber for a semi or full auto gun.

Just buy a chamber reamer from Brownells, it's easier and most of the time cheaper. I don't know if buying a chamber reamer is illegal anywhere in the world, but customs know shit about chamber reamers anyway, a 9 mm Luger chamber reamer looks just like a normal 9 mm reamer, nothing about it looking funny or special in anyway.

If you will go by Luty's way ask a machine shop where they buy there tools any tool supplier who sells machine tools can get a 1:50 tapering reamer for you but it will probably cost much more than a chamber reamer ordered from Brownells, ebay might also be good source for reamers of all sorts.

Hello, I'm back :), I'm making the Luty SMG, and i've all parts(you can read all in may web).

To make the chamber i bougth a 9mm luger chamber reamer in ebay whitout any problem.

I was thinking here... If you're making a mac 10, sten and that style of guns, maybe you could tell me, can I make SMG in a pistol style layout, like mac 10 has it, but with 7.62x25 TT ammunition, becouse I don't have many great possibilities of purchasing ammo, I'm in Latvia, I know a few dealers, that could get me some TT or PM ammunition (only russian made ammo), but I'm thinking that 9x18mm PM wouldn't be enough for my needs. And another one, how can I know what kind of recoil spring to use, won't it be too soft or otherways - too powerful, thet the gun won't be full auto...
And I don't have any access to any books, so I have no idea if the bolt will work, so I'm in real trouble, can you help me? Some blueprints, some instructions, maybe, I'd be thankful. I just die to get SMG...

Tribal,
There are several ways to get blueprints. One is to hang around here long enough to gain access to the ftp and download the plethora of goodies there. Another is to actually buy the plans. You will find books for sale at:
www.amazon.com
www.paladinpress.com
www.thehomegunsmith.com (appears to be down at the moment)

Modifying the gun for 7.62x25 shouldnt be too complicated. Change measurements accordingly and this should be pretty basic. As far as the recoil spring goes....follow the instructions in which ever book you get a hold of and just make it a little longer. This would increase the force of the spring. You could also try adding a secondary spring. It will take a little trial and error but not too much. As to a pistol grip fed design, the Metral sould be a perfect starting point..

Another starting point would be to begin with a dissassembled smg kit, like the sten kit I bought at www.interordnance.com. I am unaware of Latvia's gun laws so I don't know what options you have at your disposal. I do know where to buy disassembled CZ 26's which are chambered for the 7.62x25......if you can import them anyway.....

Unfortunately www.interordnance.com do not send any kit outside USA.
Tribal, you must read the P.A Luty books, there are very easy to make firearms.

Yeah but how common and expensive are 7.62x25's?

There is not that much difference in ballistic values between 7,62x25 TT and 9x19 mm (a.ka. 9mm NATO, Luger, Parabelum).

You just have to alter the magazin esp. the feed lips and of course the barrel and chamber dimensions, may be the bolt where it fits over the magazin, that's all. You don't need to adjust bolt weight or main spring tension, there is much leeway in both of these, they are not critical.

Well, the problem is, that i don't have any VISA creditcard or so on, so i need to get some for free. And I only have access for TT Tokarev, Makarov pistols, maybe PPsH-41, AK-47... but that'll cost and I've allways dreamed of making my own SMG.

As about the gun laws: 21 years old with a gun licence, that can only be get if you're a cop or a bodyguard. So there's no much possibilities.
I'm just a fucking student, I can't get the cash to by an AK illegally, so - time to make my own gun.

But I was wondering, if I had the blueprints, can I make the barrel from tool steel?

I've got the idea of a full auto SMG, but I was wondering, how does the extractor and ejector work, when i would have this, I might try figure this out and draw it myself...

Thanks anyway, If i'll succeed, I will certainly post it here...

I'm beginning to build the firearm, but i've got a question - how to build and where to put the extractor, how does it work? I understand everything else except that... Could you please help me?

Your extractor is a springloaded part which resides in the bolt and grips (or rather hooks) the groove in the rear of the cartridge upon loading into the chamber. When the round is fired, the gas piston or the blowback operation causes the bolt to slide back upon it's spring and the extractor assures the spent cartridge comes with it. The ejector is usually a non moving part on the left side (usually) of the bolt housing or reciever of the weapon which the bolt allows to pass thru via a groove (in the bolt) and strikes the spent shell during the rearward movement of the bolt, thus ejecting the shell to the right. Usually, the ejector and the extractor are on opposing sides of the cartridge shell.

Not sure if I'm being clear about this but I hope it helps. I've gotten no sleep and am a little bit on the groggy side.

I'd try to check out some diagrams from some earlier patents or download some manuals from biggerhammer.net to see what I mean. If you have access to even a bolt action rifle, the principal is the same, just the operation of the bolt and trigger grouping is different for a semi or full auto.

I didn't quite understand... The actual problem is the the ejection of an empty shell. I understand how the cartridge could be mover into the barrel and then shot, but how to make it go out, so the gut won't jam. Something like PA luty's in a pistol layout and 7.62x25mm TT ammunition is the one I want to make. No literature avaliable, no VISA available, home workshop available. And want to make SMG. problem with empty case ejection. HELP!!!

P.A. Luty SMGs don't have extractor and it works perfecty.
An extractor is needed only if the round have any problems and the SMG can't fire it.

The extractor in Luty's design is the frontwall/rim of the springpin which envelops the cartridge base, thats why in his design the cartridge stands out a few milimeters at the base from the chamber.

The ejector is a flat filed screw which is screwdéd in the side wall of the receiver and rides in the slot of the springpin which is part of the bolt. He shows clearly in his book how to widen the slot with a hacksaw in which several sawblades have been fastened side by side.

I don't quite understand, but as I understand - I only need a magazine, bolt, mainspring, barrel, and a screw? So it would fire... The problem is I don't have his book, i've only seen few of his drawings. But i'll certainly post a drawing of my own designed bolt in few days, so you could tell me if that will work or blow up in my hands.

You will need an upper and a lower receiver too and some other parts as well. Like a magazine well and trigger parts.

Yes I understand, but I think, that the main part is still the bolt, so here's my bolt design, I only wanted you guys to look at it and tell me - will it work?

Yeah but how common and expensive are 7.62x25's?

Where I live - I can get 7.62x25mm anytime, i've allready got 200 rounds at home. It only cost me 10 LVL, that would be about 18$. That's a common ammunition in post soviet countries as 9x18mm makarov and 7.62x39mm is.
Cheap, deadly and allways available from dealers, you just can't get them in shop.

Why does everyone save computer drawn graphics as crappy JPEG's, instead of nice 'n' neat .GIF's, like they're supposed to be? :rolleyes:

Yes I understand, but I think, that the main part is still the bolt, so here's my bolt design, I only wanted you guys to look at it and tell me - will it work?

My guess is No. It will probably crash the sear when the bolt moves. Why do you want to make it so complicated? What's the reason why you just don't use a simple fixed firing pin and an open bolt design?

Look at eDonkey there is a copy of Luty's book floating around, look for 'Expedient Homemade Firearms 9 mm Submachine Gun' by P. A. Luty. There are plans for STEN's and other submachine guns as well you might consider reading/looking at.

Btw. do you have champer reamer for the 7.62x25 mm round? This is a bottleneck cartridge, so I really wonder how you go about reaming a proper champer for this round. If you don't have a champer reamer and can't manage to buy one, you might consider using the 9 mm Makarov cartridge instead.

If you know some black marketeer you also might consider buying a Stechkin, quite an interessting little pistol it is.

Thanx, I guess i'll take a look, but about that stechkin - it costs! a lot! I'll look for PA Luty, without you, I could have built a gun, that wouldn't work. But I can allways use a 7.62x25 instead of 9mm, right? Just making the barrel and a few
parts different.

The eDonkey doesn't work for my PC, perhaps you know other place, where I might get this book, perhaps you could e-mail it to me?

Well, of course you can use the 7.62x25 mm cartridge but you must be able to cut a correct champer for this bottlenecked round. This is certainly not easy or better this will be a really pain in the butt if you don't have a proper champer reamer for this cartridge.

Try http://www.thedisease.net/lib-armorer.html for this and other books.

There is not that much difference in ballistic values between 7,62x25 TT and 9x19 mm

I hadnt the foggiest. One of the main reasons for not snatching one of the CZ-26's being sold here and there online was mainly due to never actually seeing a box of 7.25x39's at the local gun show/shop or even the pawn shops. And them pawners usually wind up with some good shit. Anyways , good luck on your smg venture. If it's anything as easy as a sten can be, you'll be buckin' lead in no time'tall.

I hadnt the foggiest. One of the main reasons for not snatching one of the CZ-26's being sold here and there online was mainly due to never actually seeing a box of 7.25x39's at the local gun show/shop or even the pawn shops. .

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Ther is no 7,25x39 mm cartridge, but I guess this might just be a typo. There is a 7.62x39 mm rifle cartridge for the AK Kalashnikov rifles and ther is the 7.62x25 mm TT or Tokarev pistol cartridge.

If you think that the dimensions of the 7.62x25 TT are the same as the 9x19 mm this is N O T repeat NOT the case. Both cartridges are NOT interchangeable!

The 7.62x25 mm TT is a bottlenecked pistol cartidge and the 9x19 mm Luger is a cylindrical cartridge with totaly different dimensions.

I was talking only on ballistic values not dimensions, balistic values are similar but not equal.

Have a look at

http://www.ppsh41.com/TT2.html

for an Articel about 7.62x25 mm Tokarev with pics. or at

http://www.ppsh41.com/reloading.htm

for data of both the 7.62x25 mm TT and the 9x19 mm Luger.

Thanx Tomu!
That page helped a lot, going to the workshop... And what do you think of PM, it's just that there is a cheap one...

Then i'll have to get it, Yes it is russian made and i suppose it'll be about 50$-60$

Festergrump!
And I'm sorry about not editing my older posts... Whenever i'll have the edit button, from now on - I'll certainly use it...

In russia 7.62x25 is often used as a murder weapon, actually next to a sewed-off shotgun. I don't know about your question, actually I think they are quite similiar and with some drilling - might work...

Do you mean Pistolet Makarov?

Well, personnaly I really like it. It's just great for self defence. It's not too big, easily concealable, not too heavy to carry, it' has a double action trigger which means it can be carried ready to fire safely loaded but not cooked, the 9x18 mm Makarov round carries enough punch. Just a great pistol. If the price is reasonable its a great buy. If it's russian made the workman ship and the material is alright, if it's a bulgarian or chinese copy check it out before buying it.

Having fired lots of ammo through various chinese remakes I must agree with Tomu. Feeding and extraction problems are all too common. Of course, the ammo I shot was purchased through a supplier advertised from the Shotgun News and was most likely old or military surplus (ie: OLD. I know not the supplier as these weren't my pistols).

I did once own a CZ-52 which chambered the 7.62x 25 round and found it to be an excellent round, indeed. Not exactly too common of a cartridge to find at your local store, but they can be had pretty readily still in the USA.

Here's a theoretical question I hope someone can answer: If one had a weapon with a barrel which chambered the 9mm X 18, could one safely modify this weapon to shoot the 9mm parrebellum (9 x 19) round assuming one could ajust the headspace?

I hope this thread gets split to it's own topic to preserve the original idea. We're way off, no?

Tribal, I have nothing against your enthusiasm for information on putting together a working firearm, but would you please make use of the edit button? You double post quite regularly in a few threads and it becomes annoying. In fact, I'm very surprised I'm the first to bring this up.

[EDIT: Tribal, check your private messages.]

festergrump,
have a search, and if there isn't anything, start a thread. I'd keep it quite broad, something like "Easy up-gunning - a guide to not re-chambering cartridges" or something. There are quite a few that people have mentioned, like shooting .410 shotgun cartridges out of a .44 magnum (or was it the reverse? You know, I posted it, and I can't remember!), that sort of thing.

Tribal,
edit your post. Unless you are replying to someone who has responded to you. In the case above, your reply comes two posts before the question!

Here's a theoretical question I hope someone can answer: If one had a weapon with a barrel which chambered the 9mm X 18, could one safely modify this weapon to shoot the 9mm parrebellum (9 x 19) round assuming one could ajust the headspace?



No it wouldn't work. The bullet dimensions of the 9x18 mm Makarov and the 9x19 mm Luger/Parabellum are different.

Even changing the complete barrel wouldn't be working because, at least all 9x18 mm Makarov pistols I know of have an unlocked breech, they are straight blow back. The slides of this pistols are too leight weight to operate as a straight blow back with the Luger round. The 9x19 mm Luger needs a locked breech or a heavy breech block. There was an old german Walther and at least another spanish pistol that used an unlocked straight blow back breech with 9x19 mm Luger but in both it didn't work too well.

But it is possible to change the barrel/caliber of the Makarov to .380 ACP or 9 mm Super Police. The .380 ACP is considerably weaker than the 9x18 mm Makarov, the 9 mm Super Police should be about equall in ballistic values.

In submachine guns which in the majority are of the straight blow back design the breech block aka. bolt is more heavy than it's the case in normal pistols.

There are quite a few that people have mentioned, like shooting .410 shotgun cartridges out of a .44 magnum (or was it the reverse?


It's .410 shot shells out of .45 Long Colt or vise versa.

As far as the 7.62 X 25, I just went to the range and tried out 3 different batches of Russian and Bulgarian (surplus, old!) and Czech ammo. Only the modern Czech was reliable, the others were between 10% and 30% duds... With modern Sellier & Belot ammo, the CZ-52 ran like a top. Best $119.00 I've ever spent on a gun. A sten in that caliber would be quite entertaining.

JC, Good idea. I will probably do this once I get some ideas straight in my head. Bert is right. The .410 and .45 Long Colt are completely interchangeable and IMHO make for a nice caliber for a derringer. A nice snake gun for the woods and will keep many poker games honest.

Tomu, What you say makes perfect sense to me. I was assuming the bullet dimentions were the same. Thanks for pointing this out. My thoughts were as such:

In the case of a SMG where the barrel is pinned inside a trunion, the barrel of a 9x18 could be moved forward within the trunion 1mm and re-pinned or welded in place. The mainspring could perhaps be replaced with one of more some more power and trimmed down to fit until exacting responce achieved.

I figured that a 9x18 is just 1mm shy in cartridge length than a 9mm Parabellum (I never had the two side by side for comparison). The bullet should be the same as a .357, .38, 9mm, .380, ect (when one adopts the american way of thinking in calibers). Were I correct, then the shell would merely stick out the back of the barrel when loaded and mate up to the bolt and extractor perfectly (with luck and some skill). Surely the pressures involved would not be much to consider with only 1mm difference. Not like anyone can or bothers to reload the 9mm, either, which is good as the shells might be weakened by the nature of such a hybrid expedient weapon. (I do not know this for certain, though. If you ever look at how a 7.62x 39 fits inside the chamber of a Kalashnikov, it makes you wonder).

All of this was for food for thought only, anyway. I have my own projects which I have put off for far too long. Thanks for the input.

[EDIT: The more I think about this, the more I think it could possibly work. Even if the barrel of the 9x18's ID was slightly smaller (1000ths of an inch, perhaps) the islands of the rifling would perhaps delve deeper into the 9x19 bullet but the end result would be the same. Lead ball ammo would be the way to go in this instance and all jacketed ammo shunned (I haven't exactly seen any 9mm ball ammo for sale of late), but still...

Locked breech would cause more of a problem (which would be taken care of by the offset of the barrel) but the sten is a prime example of an unlocked breech parabellum weapon that works extremely well. Who are we kidding? ;) Thoughts?]

Fester,
ok here are the differences between the 9x18 (makarov) and the 9x19 (Parabellum,luger)

bullet diameter is not the same. the .380 (9x17) and 9mm are .356 in diameter while the 9x18 is really a 9.2mm as it is .364 to .365 (depending on barrel manufacturer)

as to length, yes the brass is only 1mm longer BUT the 9x18 is loaded with a 80 to 100 grain bullet at 23-24,000 psi while the 9x19 is loaded with a (usually) 115 to 147 grn bullet at 27-32,000 psi.......the .380 cand handle the same weights as the 9x18 but is usually only loaded to about 126,00 psi

The heavier bullet will result in a longer overall cartridge length and your chamber must take that into account. Not to mention the extra pressure.....

However you could make it work ( i think) but only in a weapon with a locking breech or something like a Hi-Point. I would think that any otc 9mm could have another barrel made for it in 9x18 and yo might have to play with the recoil spring to get it to cycle reliably

Much info can be found at www.makarov.com

Aha... I concede. Thank you for setting me straight, and as I said before... it was merely food for thought. A good link you provided, also. :)

Everyone has their "lemon" of an idea every so often. This happened to be mine. :) Oh, well...

Regards.

But it isn't a bad idea at all.

If you did do a conversion, it might be better to use a different couple of rounds, but there is always the option of downloading the 9mm Para/Luger to half the powder charge with a lighter bullet.

Ammoguide says:
9 x 18 Makarov - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=189
SPECIFICATIONS [not much for this cart on ammoguide]
Bullet Diameter:
.364 in.
Max Overall Length:

Rifling Twist:

Rifling Lands:

Case Capacity (est):
15 gr. water

NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
Bullet Weight:

Muzzle Velocity:

Muzzle Energy:

"When Nikolai Federovich Makarov conceived his pistol, he ignored the specifications for a 7.62 or 9mm caliber, and built it around a new cartridge, the 9x18 Makarov.

Some speculate that the 9x18 Makarov was simply an adaptation of the German pre-WWII 9mm Ultra. However, there are important differences between the two. The 9mm Ultra is simply a lengthened version of the tapered 9mm Kurz (.380 ACP) with a standard 9mm (.356") bullet. The 9x18 Makarov uses a nearly cylindrical case and 9.2 mm (.363"-.365") bullet. The result is a cartridge that offers performance nearing the 9mm Parabellum in a simple blow-back pistol.

The 9x18 Makarov is neither a high accuracy cartridge, nor one with tremendous knock-down power. It is a medium performance cartridge built for simplicity, reliability, and adequate stopping power in a service pistol.

- from http://www.makarovpistol.com/mak01.html"


9mm Luger (Parabellum) - http://ammoguide.com/?catid=3

SPECIFICATIONS
Bullet Diameter:
.356 in.
Max Overall Length:
1.169 in.
Rifling Twist:
1-in-10 in.
Rifling Lands:
6
Case Capacity (est):
16 gr. water

NOMINAL PERFORMANCE
Bullet Weight:
124 gr.
Muzzle Velocity:
1110 f.p.s.
Muzzle Energy:
340 ft-lbs.

" The 9mm Parabellum was developed for the Luger autoloading pistol, which became the standard sidearm for both the German Army and Navy. It's worldwide acceptance by militaries (including NATO) and law enforcement agencies is testimony to the 9mm's effectiveness as a field round. Detailed historical info about the 9mm is available at http://www.cartridgecollectors.org/intro9mm/

In 1955, when NATO adopted the 9mm as it's standard sidearm cartridge, the U.S. kept the M1911A1 .45 Automatic pistol in service. In significant part, the decision was made based on the fact that decades of .45 ammunitions and pistols had been stockpiled.

To the dismay of Colt Auto fans, in 1985 the U.S. retired the M1911A1 .45 ACP and adopted the Berreta 92 in 9mm. The debate as to the wisdom of this change seems to have momentum to carry it well into the next century.

Being a smaller cartridge, an infantryman can carry more 9mm ammunition (or travel lighter). The handgun magazine alone, in the Berreta holds 15, whereas the Colt tops at 7. Each pistol may have an additional round in the chamber.

Factory listings include a 115-gr. bullet exiting a 4" barrel at 1155 fps., with 340 ft-lbs. of energy."

This is quite interesting, knowing that 9x18 PM is weaker than Luger, that is a worthy conversion... Stechkin pistol would be even more beatiful and deadly artwork than now.

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Ther is no 7,25x39 mm cartridge, but I guess this might just be a typo. There is a 7.62x39 mm rifle cartridge for the AK Kalashnikov rifles and ther is the 7.62x25 mm TT or Tokarev pistol cartridge.

If you think that the dimensions of the 7.62x25 TT are the same as the 9x19 mm this is N O T repeat NOT the case. Both cartridges are NOT interchangeable!

The 7.62x25 mm TT is a bottlenecked pistol cartidge and the 9x19 mm Luger is a cylindrical cartridge with totaly different dimensions.

I was talking only on ballistic values not dimensions, balistic values are similar but not equal.

Have a look at

http://www.ppsh41.com/TT2.html

for an Articel about 7.62x25 mm Tokarev with pics. or at

http://www.ppsh41.com/reloading.htm

for data of both the 7.62x25 mm TT and the 9x19 mm Luger.


That was an interesting read and for the price of both the cz-24 and 26's I'm surely going to grab one or the other. Probably the cz26 since it's got the collapsable stock.

Just wondered what magazines one would use for these two "Replica" :rolleyes: kit guns? As I dont believe they are supplied with the kits I saw. ??
I'm sure theres someone in shotgun news who'll be slanging 7.62x25 32 rounders for a reasonable price. Ya think?

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Ther is no 7,25x39 mm cartridge, but I guess this might just be a typo. There is a 7.62x39 mm rifle cartridge for the AK Kalashnikov rifles and ther is the 7.62x25 mm TT or Tokarev pistol cartridge.

If you think that the dimensions of the 7.62x25 TT are the same as the 9x19 mm this is N O T repeat NOT the case. Both cartridges are NOT interchangeable!

The 7.62x25 mm TT is a bottlenecked pistol cartidge and the 9x19 mm Luger is a cylindrical cartridge with totaly different dimensions.

I was talking only on ballistic values not dimensions, balistic values are similar but not equal.

Have a look at

http://www.ppsh41.com/TT2.html

for an Articel about 7.62x25 mm Tokarev with pics. or at

http://www.ppsh41.com/reloading.htm

for data of both the 7.62x25 mm TT and the 9x19 mm Luger.


That was an interesting read and for the price of both the cz-24 and 26's I'm surely going to grab one or the other. Probably the cz26 since it's got the collapsable stock.

Just wondered what magazines one would use for these two "Replica" :rolleyes: kit guns? As I dont believe they are supplied with the kits I saw. ??
I'm sure theres someone in shotgun news who'll be slanging 7.62x25 32 rounders for a reasonable price. Ya think?

I'm not sure what you are talking about. Ther is no 7,25x39 mm cartridge, but I guess this might just be a typo. There is a 7.62x39 mm rifle cartridge for the AK Kalashnikov rifles and ther is the 7.62x25 mm TT or Tokarev pistol cartridge.

If you think that the dimensions of the 7.62x25 TT are the same as the 9x19 mm this is N O T repeat NOT the case. Both cartridges are NOT interchangeable!

The 7.62x25 mm TT is a bottlenecked pistol cartidge and the 9x19 mm Luger is a cylindrical cartridge with totaly different dimensions.

I was talking only on ballistic values not dimensions, balistic values are similar but not equal.

Have a look at

http://www.ppsh41.com/TT2.html

for an Articel about 7.62x25 mm Tokarev with pics. or at

http://www.ppsh41.com/reloading.htm

for data of both the 7.62x25 mm TT and the 9x19 mm Luger.


That was an interesting read and for the price of both the cz-24 and 26's I'm surely going to grab one or the other. Probably the cz26 since it's got the collapsable stock.

Just wondered what magazines one would use for these two "Replica" :rolleyes: kit guns? As I dont believe they are supplied with the kits I saw. ??
I'm sure theres someone in shotgun news who'll be slanging 7.62x25 32 rounders for a reasonable price. Ya think?

That was an interesting read and for the price of both the cz-24 and 26's I'm surely going to grab one or the other. Probably the cz26 since it's got the collapsable stock.

Just wondered what magazines one would use for these two "Replica" :rolleyes: kit guns? As I dont believe they are supplied with the kits I saw. ??
I'm sure theres someone in shotgun news who'll be slanging 7.62x25 32 rounders for a reasonable price. Ya think?

At first I was a bit confused, the cz 24 and cz 26 are old models of czech semi automatic pistols. A google search however showed that the czech SMG's sa 24 and sa 26 are sold under the totally wrong designation of cz 24 and cz 26 in the USA.

Look at:

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg46-e.htm

to find out more about these SMG's. The sa 23 and sa 25 are 9x19 mm luger.

Use only the mags which are build for the weapons, do some googleing and you will find suppliers of complete part kits with mags. For example http://www.akparts.com/index.htm for a complete parts kit with mag but there are other places as well.

Same for the 7.62x25 mm Tokarev Ammo, it's widely availlable at different prices. Do a google search and you'll find many suppliers.

For fun shooting with a SMG look for military surplus ammo it's cheaper, the czech made Sellier and Bellot ammo is of high quality, the S&B brass is reloadable. For reloading data see the link in my previous post.

That was an interesting read and for the price of both the cz-24 and 26's I'm surely going to grab one or the other. Probably the cz26 since it's got the collapsable stock.

Just wondered what magazines one would use for these two "Replica" :rolleyes: kit guns? As I dont believe they are supplied with the kits I saw. ??
I'm sure theres someone in shotgun news who'll be slanging 7.62x25 32 rounders for a reasonable price. Ya think?

At first I was a bit confused, the cz 24 and cz 26 are old models of czech semi automatic pistols. A google search however showed that the czech SMG's sa 24 and sa 26 are sold under the totally wrong designation of cz 24 and cz 26 in the USA.

Look at:

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg46-e.htm

to find out more about these SMG's. The sa 23 and sa 25 are 9x19 mm luger.

Use only the mags which are build for the weapons, do some googleing and you will find suppliers of complete part kits with mags. For example http://www.akparts.com/index.htm for a complete parts kit with mag but there are other places as well.

Same for the 7.62x25 mm Tokarev Ammo, it's widely availlable at different prices. Do a google search and you'll find many suppliers.

For fun shooting with a SMG look for military surplus ammo it's cheaper, the czech made Sellier and Bellot ammo is of high quality, the S&B brass is reloadable. For reloading data see the link in my previous post.

That was an interesting read and for the price of both the cz-24 and 26's I'm surely going to grab one or the other. Probably the cz26 since it's got the collapsable stock.

Just wondered what magazines one would use for these two "Replica" :rolleyes: kit guns? As I dont believe they are supplied with the kits I saw. ??
I'm sure theres someone in shotgun news who'll be slanging 7.62x25 32 rounders for a reasonable price. Ya think?

At first I was a bit confused, the cz 24 and cz 26 are old models of czech semi automatic pistols. A google search however showed that the czech SMG's sa 24 and sa 26 are sold under the totally wrong designation of cz 24 and cz 26 in the USA.

Look at:

http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg46-e.htm

to find out more about these SMG's. The sa 23 and sa 25 are 9x19 mm luger.

Use only the mags which are build for the weapons, do some googleing and you will find suppliers of complete part kits with mags. For example http://www.akparts.com/index.htm for a complete parts kit with mag but there are other places as well.

Same for the 7.62x25 mm Tokarev Ammo, it's widely availlable at different prices. Do a google search and you'll find many suppliers.

For fun shooting with a SMG look for military surplus ammo it's cheaper, the czech made Sellier and Bellot ammo is of high quality, the S&B brass is reloadable. For reloading data see the link in my previous post.

[QUOTE=tomu;70320]There is not that much difference in ballistic values between 7,62x25 TT and 9x19 mm (a.ka. 9mm NATO, Luger, Parabelum).
QUOTE]

What a nonsense !

There is a great difference, the biggest is in penetration capabilities of 7.62x25mm which makes that round incapable for civil or law enforcement usage, and could find its usage only in military.

To see the penetration power take look at this facts:

If you put 5 people in a row, between each people 4 meter distance and shoot one round at them from distance of 25 meters between the chamber mouth and 1.st guy,
the bullet will pass through 4 people and wound the fifth one !
Cases are documentated in which somebody shot at someone with that round, the bullet went through him and only wounded him and hit another guy in the head and killed him.

That is why this round is not good for police use.

I was imagining the use of a heavy caliber pistol round for an SMG one day and was looking for a good round to use (I was thinking of .45, but that just seemed a little to blase' and cliche to have fun with). What I came across during this search looked rather fun and cheap to buy the recoil spring and barrel for. Sorry for all those that won't be able to order this stuff outside the U.S., but for those of us who are able, I present for your perusal the .460 Rowland;

http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt460r.htm
http://www.clarkcustomguns.com/rowland.htm

A .45 based cartridge with the punch of a .44 magnum? Sounds like a winner to me!

One of the more obscure reasons for the transition to newer cartridges from the 45 was that it had so much bulk. I had hoped that the 10mm would rise to the occasion due in no small part to it's size within a staggered magazine. A hot loaded 10mm is no small threat and the construction of an SMG for such a cartridge would be within existing barreled actions designed for the 40.