Now that WE, the people, won the recent SCOTUS ruling on the second amendment, should a felon be allowed to own firearms? The ruling had nothing to do with this, but I'm just asking...

Nowhere within the US Second Amendment do I see anything regarding the loss of such rights as an individual (or a member of the militia, for that matter) if one breaks the law to such a degree as to become what we now know as a felon. (nor do I see any such thing as registration spoken about in the amendment of discussion, but perhaps thats a topic for another thread). In the 19th century and the early 20th these rights were not taken away if one were to ever be convicted. (were there even "felonies" back then?).

My question is: If an American was convicted of a felonious crime... should he lose his second amendment right to bear arms? How about if it DIDN'T involve a firearm while allegedly commiting such a "crime"?

I do understand that many felons are in and out of prison NOW due to gang related activity (which usually includes some guns as well as selling drugs, etc.), robbery, or otherwise nefarious behavior, but what about those who messed up early in life and have since made changes to become more grown-up and "wholesome" within their life?

Can they not be good citizens, too, and learn from mistakes made so early?

I was a kid once (weren't you?) and I messed up as a 19 year old. I'm a felon. I'm soon to be 38 and have had no major infractions of the law since (speeding, etc., yes!). Can I not handle a firearm? According to the law... NO!

Remember, always, you may not be a felon NOW but you may be one soon, if even for your political beliefs... :rolleyes:

I'm not only interested in what Americans think on this, but other "non-Americans", too. While you may not have any "firearms rights" left, it's still good to hear your opinions.

We ALL want to fight for rights to freedom, so this involves EVERYONE across the globe... as IMHO, America is the last vestige of hope for true freedom from what I am reading (and even that is laughable!)...

Freedom will always involve weapons to keep it.

Discuss.

Once someone has paid their dept to society they should regain their full rights.

If someone screws up it should not be held against them in later life. Even if th felony involved a gun, there would be maybe a 5 year period where you are watched, and if you dont commit any felonies during that time then you can get a gun.

One thing I really despise about american gun law is how one cannot own a silencer. A silencer does not instantly make someone an assassin or criminal. It makes one have better hearing.

Also the whole assault weapons pile of shit is pointless too. Over here in ireland I have personally fired a civilian owned weapon that would definately be an assault weapon or otherwise banned. It was a shortened ruger mini 14 with a pistol grip, front pistol grip, silencer, folding stock, more picatinny rails than you can shake a stick at, a 30 round mag, and a fuckload of other tactical stuff.

I am all for gun control, but the army and police can surrender theirs first. I cant remember who has said that phrase, but credit to mega for the words.

Suppressors are not illegal in the US, you just have to pay some sort of tax to get one.

The way it works is to develop a dividing line; a cut off of those people who would be deemed "trustworthy" or "productive". I understand you are a father and you certainly care for your child. I also understand that at 19 people do some really fucking stupid shit. Should they continue to pay for that at 38?......Who knows, as cases are individuated. but we have only to look at prison populations to see serious reason WHY they do have some concern that these "people" are monitored. The ATF has some method to challenge this and it's a long tedious process. But it CAN be done. It's a fuck-bone hassle.

Why they do this is that the recidivism rate of felons is unbelievably high and the people who populate prisons are animals of the lowest untermenchen order anyone could possibly imagine. I could say a lot of patronizing shit about you personally but I wont insult you. That life in this world because the human shit in penitentiaries is so vile that to even consider trusting them with a job working with most anything has been rewarded with betrayal after betrayal.

A single non-firearm felony is actually very appeal-able to the ATF. Especially if it happened at 19 and the track record was there, etc. If it mattered to you, you could try it. Personally I don't believe that the "Law" is the element that allows me to defend myself or my family. That right comes from being a human being. But the mere fact that you want to do it legally is generally looked upon favorably. I actually know of one person who had their rights restored, but I don't know the whole story so I won't go there.

The biggest issue that appears on the restoration of rights for the ATF is "why" someone would want to be able to own a firearm. That question is a very potent crystal ball for the decision. Coming down on that question like a bitter, angry "ex-felon" gives them ammo to rubber stamp the shit "NO". Tantrums are hallmarks of children and it's an adult's right to own a firearm.

From a big picture overview the applicant has to realize that he is in the company of fuck-wits who are "gang" members, killers of the innocent, drug traffickers, extortionists, and general scum that makes life less productive and frightens the population.....that is who felons ARE to the general public. That's just the hard facts.

He MUST separate himself from those social retards and distance himself from the unproductive assholes who steal what they do not earn, take advantage of the weak, profit from misery, & lend not an ounce of effort to the betterment of society.

If you can do that; it gives you a fighting chance. There ARE people who specialize in the Restoration of Rights.

My opinion is that if society can't trust a person with a firearm, then they shouldn't let him/her out of prison.

Charles Owen Picket: I had been led to belive that while there is a legal way to restore ones right to keep and bear arms, the BATFE hasn't gotten any funds for that since the early 90's? Is there another way besides that?

No simple answer....

There are people who committed a felony at some point in their life, but for them it was a "one off" event that is in no way indicative of the nature of their personality. There are others who are simply career criminals, who prey upon the trusting and tolerant nature of society....

In the latter case, not only should they never be allowed guns, but after they have clearly demonstrated their nature and chosen lifestyle they should not even be allowed air, IMHO.

For the former, I agree with the prior post that some sort of banned period after the conviction should be in place. Five years without another felony minimally, but maybe 10 years would be better.

I say this while keeping in mind that many of these measures are simply attempts by the anti-gun crowd to lower the number of people who can have guns. Piecemeal gun control...... For example, in many states now even a conviction of a "violent" misdemeanor will now bring with it a lifetime ban on firearms possession. For example, a bar fight with a misdemeanor assault conviction could ban one from gun ownership. I think that is ridiculous.....who hasn't encountered some asshole in a bar who needed their butt kicked?:p

This topic leads to some VERY challenging questions and opportunities to alter one's world view....

It has been said that "Once someone has paid their dept to society they should regain their full rights." And that view is quite popular in areas wherein we see "victim-less crimes".

Would we feel that way about a "light sentence" to a child molester. He does his 18 months at a minimum mental health facility and is released. Even though that crime has the highest recidivists rate of most all person-to-person crimes.....should he be brought back to enjoy a teaching career in an elementary school?

Self examination is the hallmark of maturity.

I thought about this even more after I initially wrote about it. There is a lot more here than meets the eye. This topic emcompasses the level of forgivness and individualtion that a mature society can display. This can be a VERY challenging subject if addressed in an open & honest discourse.

Every society has to have lines that are not crossed. In this Forum we Ban members for LIFE who cross a line that is just too much to deal with any longer. Do they (those who are BFL) learn a lesson? Perhaps MANY do! Should they be allowed back in? NBK used to say (more than once, as I remember) that to go back and allow someone a "2nd chance" would appear weak. Megalomania knew that a few folks came back with another Email or whatever.

Did they make the same mistake twice? I really don't know the ratio. (This even leads to the question of were some people banned for unjust reasons....Science Madness didn't happen in a vacuum) Perhaps some of them learned that some behaviour would not be tolerated and that's all for the good.

Giving you back your rights as a full citizen would not be appearing "weak" to me personally, IF what that meant to you was something deeper than simply owning a weapon. There are those (possibly in the ATF) who think like NBK. But life and people are more complex than an all inclusive simplistic statement. As we grow and mature we start to see the shades of gray in the black and white / good and bad world of children. Kids are very elemental because that type of thinking makes them feel safe and that's the limits of their experience. There is a Hell of a lot of injustice in "black & white thinking".

Society (like individuals) has two responsibilities basically: to be productive and to grow. Bitterness & hatred limit our ability to see the greater expanse of human potential. The man who lost a daughter to some rapist/killer piece of shit can live with that hatred all his life & be consumed by it. Or he can grow past it to enjoy what's left to him after tragedy has taken it's toll. He may never forget, but he doesn't have to smother himself with blind fury (except for that one individual perhaps). Because life has more to offer than hate. When shit happens or we make mistakes, we always have a choice to either grow from them or live in them. Personally, I've had to face that choice too many times to count.

Here are some very valuable links on this subject:
http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/06-6911.ZS.html
http://www.usdoj.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm02452.htm
http://www.hwylaw.com/CM/Articles/Articles88.asp

Under The Gun Control Act Of 1968, the misdemeanor doesn't have to be
violent, only punishable by more than 2 years in prison. I'm in that category.
My misdemeanor is punishable by 3 years in prison therefore I'm not allowed
to own any modern firearm.

As for Relief From Disability under ATF guidelines forget about it. The
antigunners succeeded in having all funding removed years ago. This means
there is no money available to ATF for investigating the applicant. The only
other means is pardon from the President for a federal offense or from a
governor for a state level offense.

I've requested and received the application for a pardon from Maryland.
It is an incredibly long and complicated form. The last DoD security
clearance form I filled out wasn't that fucking long ! Beyond your name,
address, social security and phone numbers this is what they ask with all of
the details required:

- Offense(s) for which the pardon is requested
Date, location, penalties
- Work history
- 3 letters of reference to your character
- History of all offenses(s), including traffic, whether convicted or not
Date, location, court disposition, penalties
- History of alcohol, drug, tobacco use
- History of treatment for mental illness and/or medication
- Names, addresses, phone numbers of family members
Also, have any family members ever been charged with a crime ?
- Is the pardon for gun ownership ?
- Why is the pardon needed ?
- Finally, in your own words WHY you deserve a pardon ?

I'm still trying to collect all the necessary information from the courts and I'm
not holding my breath as this state is run by a very antigun governor. I also
still need 2 more letters of reference. Only one person has done it so far.
Three others(antigunners) have refused !

Well we can place a good bit of blame on the NRA for writing or helping shape said legislation.

I have no experience being a felon.

I do have a close friend who was caught via a CI growing and selling high grade cannabis.

He was convicted of a felony on the State level.

A year later he successfully petitioned the court, via his attorney who was relatively well connected politically, to have his record expunged.

Point being the ability for relief exists. But like everything its about your network and your money.

He was given all of his handguns and other guns back. If I can just get him to stop voting Dem.

Some really good replies here, folks. I appreciate it.

I'm really not interested in getting my second amendment right back, to be honest. I live by a higher set of laws in which rights cannot be taken from me (I call those laws... morals). I just thought it would make for interesting discussion how the second amendment has been trampled on by laws which strip a person of their rights due to past transgressions of unrelated laws.

Anformula really hit the nail on the head with "piecemeal gun control", IMHO. I think we ALL will be felons before you know it because they can't really ban firearms without a major uprising.

The concept of a 5-10 year waiting period for a "felon" to again be able to own a weapon does seem pretty fair to me. The fact that it is not in line with the Bill of Rights, though... that's another story.

In Festerworld EVERYONE carries a gun... "An armed society is a polite society". That old chestnut. ;)

Under The Gun Control Act Of 1968, the misdemeanor doesn't have to be
violent, only punishable by more than 2 years in prison. I'm in that category.
My misdemeanor is punishable by 3 years in prison therefore I'm not allowed
to own any modern firearm.




TMP I am confused by this. I thought misdemeanors are by definition crimes for which the maximum punishment is one year county jail......?

Can you expand?

I was completely thrilled with the supreme court ruling and have read through the verdict. If your pro gun it is very, very, very positive. But just for the record, it does mention prohibiting "felons and the mentally ill."

Charles does have a good point, but I would like to talk about his reference to NBK and the BFL system. While there is some comparison there, NBK was the judge and did not hold absolutely to any one set of rules. There is no blanket rule where if a user commits x crime then they are BFL. For instance, if Charles commited a bad I/i failure (entire post) we would be more inclined to forgive/forget than if a newbie did it.

I think this should be the same. Yes, most felons are filth and don't deserve to breath, I know there are some that have changed. For that reason, I think that the firearm ban should be a judicial decision, not a blanket decision by the law.

While that still wouldn't solve the problem, it would help some. If the crime involves firearms, then perhaps a ban is necessary. But if it is the lowest level felony possible, non-violent, no firearms involved, then I don't think a life ban is necessary.

Having a life ban in place is like saying that if you commit offence x for whatever reason, then you will be punished for the rest of your life, regardless of the future.

I also think that 3 strikes thing is bullshit too, but perhaps that is just me...

For that reason, I think that the firearm ban should be a judicial decision, not a blanket decision by the law.



The problem with that is the judges. They are human and highly flawed. Liberal judges would take guns from everyone, regardless of the crime. I personally would not want to allow a basic constitutional right to be decided by one judge....

Difficult to come up with a solution with no huge downside.....:confused:

Most States have a Law on the books that allows a "First" felony conviction to be expunged from the records. In Michigan it's 8 years from date of conviction, as long as you've kept your nose clean you can go back into court and have you first and only felony expunged from your record.

A call to any criminal lawyer's office and you should be able to find out if your State has the same thing on the books.

Georgia has a similar thing, TSF. They call it the First Offenders Act.

An example would be if someone got convicted for a felony offense and sentenced to 5 years, they would likely spend 6 months in jail with the remainder of the sentence suspended to probation (if time spent was in county jail). After completing the probationary period without any more felonies commited, the records would supposedly be automatically sealed and rights restored. That's the way it's supposed to work, anyway.

I'm fairly certain that the First Offenders Act only applies to nonviolent offenders. First time murderers need not apply, hehe. :D (edit: NO, I'm NOT a murderer!).

Anformula, I'm almost positive in all 50 states that a domestic abuse charge disqualifies a person from second amendment rights. Possibly some other misdemeanor charges, but that I'm not so sure of. I think in the case of a domestic abuse one loses his rights even while the charges are still pending...

Thank you for those links Charles, I found them to be quite informative.

I am in a similar boat; a federal felon, convicted in the late 90's of a type of bank/wire fraud (non-violent, I used a computer to steal $$ basically). My punishment was 4 years of probation (no jail/prison time), with no computer usage! I was able to petition the court to shorten the sentence after 3 years (of good behavior), which they did. Before my conviction I was a gun owner, owning several handguns and shotguns. My probation being long over, I am just now starting to consider getting my rights back, including the right to own a firearm.

I have been looking into annulment, and while state annulment of misdemeanors is common, state felony annulment does happen too, albeit rarer. I have yet to find any good reference to annulling a federal felony conviction. (Other than a presidential pardon, which I really don't think is going to happen.) Consulting a federal lawyer is next on my adgenda.