megalomania
March 4th, 2003, 01:52 AM
Spudgunner
A new voice
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 11, 2001 10:42 PM
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Well, just to let you know, I started a new topic so we could focus just on this, and not how whatever magazine has good jokes. Well, my first attempt was a primer glued to skirt of pellet, with a steel pin (stiff piano wire) glued to skirt, with a half inch of pipe glued to front end of primer. Before I attached the pipe though, I rammed some tissue paper down in there pretty dense, then used CA to harden the whole thing, both sides of paper. Then I filled with a grain and a half (.1 gram) of good flash powder, then glued open end to fire end of primer so it would ignite the flash. I set up at a 90 degree angle my trigger pull (rope around a stake) so I was in my garage with the door down and fired. It hit the armor plate I have been testing my AP pellets on. But, with the primer in back, it just didn't go. Maybe I will find it tomorrow, but I dremt this all up earlier when parents were not home. Then, in my room, I shot a pellet skirt and primer assembly at the plate at point blank basically. I wrapped a junk jacket around it to contain any peices. It left a heck of a dent in the metal. I scavenged and found 3 lead scraps of the skirt, the anvil of primer, and the cup, all separated. Well, that I deemed a sucess. Just now, I had a dream where I built another one, this time with primer on front. You have to be very good at doing this though. The gun I use is .22 pellet. The reason you have to be careful, is because when these exploding things are 3/4 of an inch long or a little over that, it is very easy to make it crooked and not go in barrel. But I was careful of that and they go in no problem. Since these are so long, and fairly heavy, I am sure they will not stabilize right, so I would be range is under a couple yards (meters). Dont know until I make a few though. Oh, and before I forget, not only do I glue the edge of the primer to my brass pipe, but I also put a little CA on outside, and wrap that tissue paper around the pipe and primer a few times, and make sure it has plenty of CA to harden the whole thing. That should keep anything from coming apart other than by throwing or stepping on it.
Spudgunner
A new voice
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 14, 2001 10:48 PM
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Wow, thats about all I have to say about the pellet. I didnt know a grain and a half of flash could be so loud! However, i dont think that the pellet actually did much. It just shot the primer off the front and my endplug out the back. But there was a lot of hot gas going one direction or the other. And a big dent was left, but nothing like shrapnel or anything was done. The brass tube the flash was in bulged at one end, thats all. I am sure if I had a welded endcap on and a primer that I could find out how to secure better than CAing it on, the thing would be much more impressive. If i were really wanting it to explode, I'd simply use AP like some others would have, and then it would be real awesome with all that extra on.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 14, 2001 11:42 PM
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Several months ago I also did some expirimenting. I had a .22 pistol barrel (from a fucked up, but new, pellet gun). I stuck a large pistol primer in there. I aimed it at a soon to be pipebomb (I dont know what metal {most likely an alloy} it is, but its EXTREMELY VERY strong) and blew hard. It exploded shooting the anvil about 1/2 in. under my left eye where I had to pull it out. I was like "Woah, fuck, hehe my eye, is bleading" (I was high). Nothing serious, just an eye opener. I have done many expiriments with my .22 pellet gun and primers. I was doing an ability to detonate test once. I opened this cabinet where 2 mice hung out. I glued a bb to a primer and shot one mouse (he was in the corner) and it penetrated, and detonated because the wood on the other side. It blew the mouse out of the cabinet on the floor. Pretty cool. Very unreliable detonations with this method though. I need to go soon, so one more thing. I sometimes would put a pellet in backwards for it to be a hollow point. I usually did this for fairly close range rabbit hunting (I always aim for the head).
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 11:52 AM
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The Windowbreaker:
This is an interesting technique that my nephew and I discovered when we were screwing around with his airgun. All you have to do is load one pellet in the breech of the gun like normal and another in the muzzle of the gun, pushed down with a cleaning rod about 6 inches. Aim and fire. That loud bang you hear is the pellet you rammed down the barrel going supersonic. We tried this on a gun that averaged 550 fps, so that's a considerable power gain. The accuracy wavers, but your groups will open up to about 2 or 3 inches at 20 yards. This sort of shot is suitable for close range hunting where you need that power boost (Racoons and the like. I took out a fox with a headshot using the same gun once.) The farther down you ram the second pellet the more accuracy and less power you get out of it. Inserting the pellet backwards, like Cricket said, does some rather spectacular things at these speeds...
~Zero the Inestimable
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 15, 2001 01:42 PM
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How do you know its going supersonic?
It doesn't seen possible to me...
[This message has been edited by HMTD Factory (edited February 15, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 15, 2001 03:08 PM
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I'm guessin the bang is the pellet smacking the other pellet. If anything it should lessen power since not only is the "projectile" twice the weight, but energy wil be lost when the first pellet strikes the second.
Inserting pellets backwards is damn difficult, that's why I just buy hollow points...
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 15, 2001 04:14 PM
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I rarely had trouble putting it in backwards. But I bet our guns are different. Mine was a rifle and it was like a bolt action, but a little different. When the bolt was open, you had almost an inch to lay the pellet in the barrel. I would just put it between my fingers backwards and lay it next to the bolt. Then just roll it in the barrel. It requires practice, but works. Sometimes you will still get one stuck, so just straiten a hanger out and poke it in the barrel. I miss my gun. I especially miss shooting out all my neighbors street lights! Thats what they get for calling the police on me for "testing" stuff.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited February 15, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 15, 2001 06:33 PM
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I've just got a break barrel springer and the breach is quite tight so it's probably just me then. I have trouble fitting some pellets in the right way round, my finger ends up looking like the Olympic flag
One more thing about the double pellet idea, I'm surprised it doesn't get jammed. Because the head of the first pellet would fit into the skirt of the second, expanding the second pellet in the barrel.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 15, 2001 06:38 PM
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Be careful putting pellets in backwards, clearing a jam without a cleaning rod handy is a bitch.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 15, 2001 07:55 PM
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Maybe the first pellet acts like some kind of high speed piston creating a pocket of high pressure air behind the first pellet?
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 15, 2001 09:00 PM
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I learned a neat trick from my brother during one of them boring Sunday morning church services. I would get a plastic Bic pen. I would degut it to where its nothing but a hollow tube. Then I would get a pice of paper and chew it til its nice and soggy, but not all tore to hell. Make another. Then we would have to get something that fits inside the tube and it strong. I get hangers and chop off about 8 inches of it (the straight part on the bottom) and round the ends with neetle nosed pliers. Then poke the spitwads in the ends extremely tight. So if you understood connectly, you have a pice of a hanger (much better if you make the ends round so it wont poke through the spitwad), a pen (hollow), and two spitwads. Hope this is clear enough. Poke the ramrod through as fast as you can (I just hold the pen in my hand and slam it on my hand or somehting). It should make the first spitwad make pressure and blow the second one out the end with a surprisingly loud "pop" (not loud, just louder than you would think). Its really fun to shoot people with this, makes school worth going to. I bet this is whats happening in the barrel when you put in two pellets. I bet it would be better if you could make the pellet at the end of the barrel get stuck a little bit. So it would build up more pressure before it shoots out.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 09:22 PM
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That's exactly what happens- You get all the pressure/force/whatever you call it from the pellet in the breech compressing the air between the two pellets. On top of this the air that it compresses heats up and expands even more, creating more pressure. The pellets never hit each other unless you ram the second one down way too far. The first pellet (the one you load normally) takes a different and much shorter trajectory since it loses most of its power, usually landing someplace strange and doing neglibable damage. Sometimes you can even see it fall out of the barrel.
Another fun one is to load up a pellet and then several BB's for a shotgun effect. I'm sure we've all figured that one out already, though.
Framing nails have interesting effects on crows, too.
~Zero the Inestimable
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 15, 2001 10:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, I used to do that. I would fill my whole barrel up to the top with bbs and shoot that shiny spinner thing on top of my house (hey, it was 2-3 years ago). It wont spin now needless to say, after several 5,000 packs of bbs. I remember when I did that, I would get some recoil off of it. More than a .22 it seems. Its much slower though, like ANFO compared to NG. It just lobes them out the end, but a .22 blows it out. If I had time to and was close enough, I would put in an extra 2-3 bbs to give me more knock down power (wich I dont understand, its a bird not an elephant). Also, at my grandmothers house I would go to the dock and feed the fish. When they would come close to the surface, I would slowly put the barrel of my rifle bb gun in the water. I would move it to where they are about 2-3 inches away and shoot them in the head (usually). Then they would swim really fast and you couldnt even tell where they go. Pretty funny.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 16, 2001 12:11 AM
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I used to do that with a brass tube, a bamboo skewer and orange peels.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 19, 2001 09:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Orange peels? I used to have a Chinese springer rifle with a seal that I think was made from orange peels...
~Zero the Inestimable
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 20, 2001 01:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably leather, which can stand petroleum
lubricants.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 20, 2001 08:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually that was a reference to how cheap the gun was, but never mind...
~Zero the Inestimable
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 20, 2001 10:31 PM
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I'm still unsure of how this could work. All energy for the shot must come from the spring/piston, transfering the energy from the piston to a pellet, then from the pellet to another pellet can only result in a loss of energy.
Another consideration is that if you ram the second pellet half way down the barrel, the effective barrel length (the amount of barrel the second pellet travels from zero to muzzle velocity) is drastically reduced.
The only thing I can think of that explains it is, that there is not restriction of the gas that pushes the second piston, unlike the restriction that were would be from the piston pushing the first pellet. This would only have a small effect however and could be simply gained by drilling out the air transfer port from the piston chamber.
One more factor I just thought of, the compression between the first and second pellet allows dieseling of any oil in the barrel between the two pellets.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 21, 2001 06:04 AM
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No way, it doesnt take much to push a pellet down a pellet gun barell, as soon as the pressure built up enough for the pellet to move it would be pushed out of the barell.
Of course if the velocity of the gun is high, then yeah, its probably one pellet smashing into the other.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 22, 2001 02:47 AM
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Solve the myth with very simple logic.
The second pellet will travel slower than the first pellet.
The first pellet will travel slower than a pellet which is forced out as the only projectile .
There you have it, the second pellet is not
travelling any faster than one-projectile pellet.
The pop comes from released pressure between
the two pellets, not from sonic boom.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 22, 2001 10:40 AM
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Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at, just didn't word it very well
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 23, 2001 04:00 PM
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Now if you'll just explain why pellets I load like that penetrate more, everything will be peachy...
~Zero the Inestimable
Spudgunner
A new voice
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 23, 2001 10:54 PM
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I thought of this a while ago, but was not sure if this is right. What I am thinking, is when you push the pellet down the barrel, backwards of the way you normally push it (I think this is what you mean)then it expands a little, so it is a little tighter than normal. When you fire, the pressure is building from the air and the pellet traveling very fast. The pressure keeps building until BAM! the first pellet farther down the barrel has to release. So, more air is behind it than would normally be behind the pellet. That, or I could be talking without having a clue (probably the latter).
Spud
Ps, forgot to spell check, this is going to take some getting used to.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 24, 2001 06:31 AM
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Careful, if this turn into an argument the Mods. will lock it.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 24, 2001 06:01 PM
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Tighter pellets don't neccessarily mean higher FPS since you're wasting energy to friction.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 24, 2001 08:26 PM
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Well, I am sure that an air rifle has more energy than that is needed to just fire one pellet and as such can use this "reserve" to help this occur (ie, high speed piston). The air rifle doesnt just have exactly enough energy to be used to fire a single pellet.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 24, 2001 08:53 PM
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No formal test is shown to prove that the
second pellet actually penetrates more so there won't be explaination as well.
Spudgunner's explaination will work for gunpowder firearm, but not a piston gun.
His idea is that if the peak-pressure is high
then there is more "area under graph" there will be more "punch" stored in the pellet.
(There won't be more air inside piston chamber though).
But the pressure of the piston reach the first pellet first. That is the piston will start to move the first pellet before it can
"feel" the resistance of the second.
When the pressure reaches both, the piston simply "feels" like pushing two pellets.
Those who are interested in testing can shoot
at a phone book under the same condition and
tell whick pellet penetrated more pages.
[This message has been edited by HMTD Factory (edited February 24, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 25, 2001 03:39 PM
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Airgun pellets are designed to make maximum use of the energy release in each shot. A lighter pellet will go faster a heavier pellet will go slower. So two pellets will have the same effect as a pellet twice the weight.
A heavy pellet would create a higher peak pressure inside the piston chamber though, but the heavy projectile would still limit the velocity. The gun will also become damaged from using heavy projectiles.
Testing is the only way to get a definate answer, preferably over a chrono as well as the yellow pages test.
A new voice
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 11, 2001 10:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, just to let you know, I started a new topic so we could focus just on this, and not how whatever magazine has good jokes. Well, my first attempt was a primer glued to skirt of pellet, with a steel pin (stiff piano wire) glued to skirt, with a half inch of pipe glued to front end of primer. Before I attached the pipe though, I rammed some tissue paper down in there pretty dense, then used CA to harden the whole thing, both sides of paper. Then I filled with a grain and a half (.1 gram) of good flash powder, then glued open end to fire end of primer so it would ignite the flash. I set up at a 90 degree angle my trigger pull (rope around a stake) so I was in my garage with the door down and fired. It hit the armor plate I have been testing my AP pellets on. But, with the primer in back, it just didn't go. Maybe I will find it tomorrow, but I dremt this all up earlier when parents were not home. Then, in my room, I shot a pellet skirt and primer assembly at the plate at point blank basically. I wrapped a junk jacket around it to contain any peices. It left a heck of a dent in the metal. I scavenged and found 3 lead scraps of the skirt, the anvil of primer, and the cup, all separated. Well, that I deemed a sucess. Just now, I had a dream where I built another one, this time with primer on front. You have to be very good at doing this though. The gun I use is .22 pellet. The reason you have to be careful, is because when these exploding things are 3/4 of an inch long or a little over that, it is very easy to make it crooked and not go in barrel. But I was careful of that and they go in no problem. Since these are so long, and fairly heavy, I am sure they will not stabilize right, so I would be range is under a couple yards (meters). Dont know until I make a few though. Oh, and before I forget, not only do I glue the edge of the primer to my brass pipe, but I also put a little CA on outside, and wrap that tissue paper around the pipe and primer a few times, and make sure it has plenty of CA to harden the whole thing. That should keep anything from coming apart other than by throwing or stepping on it.
Spudgunner
A new voice
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 14, 2001 10:48 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, thats about all I have to say about the pellet. I didnt know a grain and a half of flash could be so loud! However, i dont think that the pellet actually did much. It just shot the primer off the front and my endplug out the back. But there was a lot of hot gas going one direction or the other. And a big dent was left, but nothing like shrapnel or anything was done. The brass tube the flash was in bulged at one end, thats all. I am sure if I had a welded endcap on and a primer that I could find out how to secure better than CAing it on, the thing would be much more impressive. If i were really wanting it to explode, I'd simply use AP like some others would have, and then it would be real awesome with all that extra on.
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 14, 2001 11:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Several months ago I also did some expirimenting. I had a .22 pistol barrel (from a fucked up, but new, pellet gun). I stuck a large pistol primer in there. I aimed it at a soon to be pipebomb (I dont know what metal {most likely an alloy} it is, but its EXTREMELY VERY strong) and blew hard. It exploded shooting the anvil about 1/2 in. under my left eye where I had to pull it out. I was like "Woah, fuck, hehe my eye, is bleading" (I was high). Nothing serious, just an eye opener. I have done many expiriments with my .22 pellet gun and primers. I was doing an ability to detonate test once. I opened this cabinet where 2 mice hung out. I glued a bb to a primer and shot one mouse (he was in the corner) and it penetrated, and detonated because the wood on the other side. It blew the mouse out of the cabinet on the floor. Pretty cool. Very unreliable detonations with this method though. I need to go soon, so one more thing. I sometimes would put a pellet in backwards for it to be a hollow point. I usually did this for fairly close range rabbit hunting (I always aim for the head).
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 11:52 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Windowbreaker:
This is an interesting technique that my nephew and I discovered when we were screwing around with his airgun. All you have to do is load one pellet in the breech of the gun like normal and another in the muzzle of the gun, pushed down with a cleaning rod about 6 inches. Aim and fire. That loud bang you hear is the pellet you rammed down the barrel going supersonic. We tried this on a gun that averaged 550 fps, so that's a considerable power gain. The accuracy wavers, but your groups will open up to about 2 or 3 inches at 20 yards. This sort of shot is suitable for close range hunting where you need that power boost (Racoons and the like. I took out a fox with a headshot using the same gun once.) The farther down you ram the second pellet the more accuracy and less power you get out of it. Inserting the pellet backwards, like Cricket said, does some rather spectacular things at these speeds...
~Zero the Inestimable
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 15, 2001 01:42 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
How do you know its going supersonic?
It doesn't seen possible to me...
[This message has been edited by HMTD Factory (edited February 15, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 15, 2001 03:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm guessin the bang is the pellet smacking the other pellet. If anything it should lessen power since not only is the "projectile" twice the weight, but energy wil be lost when the first pellet strikes the second.
Inserting pellets backwards is damn difficult, that's why I just buy hollow points...
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 15, 2001 04:14 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I rarely had trouble putting it in backwards. But I bet our guns are different. Mine was a rifle and it was like a bolt action, but a little different. When the bolt was open, you had almost an inch to lay the pellet in the barrel. I would just put it between my fingers backwards and lay it next to the bolt. Then just roll it in the barrel. It requires practice, but works. Sometimes you will still get one stuck, so just straiten a hanger out and poke it in the barrel. I miss my gun. I especially miss shooting out all my neighbors street lights! Thats what they get for calling the police on me for "testing" stuff.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited February 15, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 15, 2001 06:33 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've just got a break barrel springer and the breach is quite tight so it's probably just me then. I have trouble fitting some pellets in the right way round, my finger ends up looking like the Olympic flag
One more thing about the double pellet idea, I'm surprised it doesn't get jammed. Because the head of the first pellet would fit into the skirt of the second, expanding the second pellet in the barrel.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 15, 2001 06:38 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Be careful putting pellets in backwards, clearing a jam without a cleaning rod handy is a bitch.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 15, 2001 07:55 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe the first pellet acts like some kind of high speed piston creating a pocket of high pressure air behind the first pellet?
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 15, 2001 09:00 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I learned a neat trick from my brother during one of them boring Sunday morning church services. I would get a plastic Bic pen. I would degut it to where its nothing but a hollow tube. Then I would get a pice of paper and chew it til its nice and soggy, but not all tore to hell. Make another. Then we would have to get something that fits inside the tube and it strong. I get hangers and chop off about 8 inches of it (the straight part on the bottom) and round the ends with neetle nosed pliers. Then poke the spitwads in the ends extremely tight. So if you understood connectly, you have a pice of a hanger (much better if you make the ends round so it wont poke through the spitwad), a pen (hollow), and two spitwads. Hope this is clear enough. Poke the ramrod through as fast as you can (I just hold the pen in my hand and slam it on my hand or somehting). It should make the first spitwad make pressure and blow the second one out the end with a surprisingly loud "pop" (not loud, just louder than you would think). Its really fun to shoot people with this, makes school worth going to. I bet this is whats happening in the barrel when you put in two pellets. I bet it would be better if you could make the pellet at the end of the barrel get stuck a little bit. So it would build up more pressure before it shoots out.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 15, 2001 09:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That's exactly what happens- You get all the pressure/force/whatever you call it from the pellet in the breech compressing the air between the two pellets. On top of this the air that it compresses heats up and expands even more, creating more pressure. The pellets never hit each other unless you ram the second one down way too far. The first pellet (the one you load normally) takes a different and much shorter trajectory since it loses most of its power, usually landing someplace strange and doing neglibable damage. Sometimes you can even see it fall out of the barrel.
Another fun one is to load up a pellet and then several BB's for a shotgun effect. I'm sure we've all figured that one out already, though.
Framing nails have interesting effects on crows, too.
~Zero the Inestimable
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 160
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 15, 2001 10:20 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yea, I used to do that. I would fill my whole barrel up to the top with bbs and shoot that shiny spinner thing on top of my house (hey, it was 2-3 years ago). It wont spin now needless to say, after several 5,000 packs of bbs. I remember when I did that, I would get some recoil off of it. More than a .22 it seems. Its much slower though, like ANFO compared to NG. It just lobes them out the end, but a .22 blows it out. If I had time to and was close enough, I would put in an extra 2-3 bbs to give me more knock down power (wich I dont understand, its a bird not an elephant). Also, at my grandmothers house I would go to the dock and feed the fish. When they would come close to the surface, I would slowly put the barrel of my rifle bb gun in the water. I would move it to where they are about 2-3 inches away and shoot them in the head (usually). Then they would swim really fast and you couldnt even tell where they go. Pretty funny.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 16, 2001 12:11 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to do that with a brass tube, a bamboo skewer and orange peels.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 19, 2001 09:35 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Orange peels? I used to have a Chinese springer rifle with a seal that I think was made from orange peels...
~Zero the Inestimable
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 20, 2001 01:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Probably leather, which can stand petroleum
lubricants.
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 20, 2001 08:57 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually that was a reference to how cheap the gun was, but never mind...
~Zero the Inestimable
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 20, 2001 10:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm still unsure of how this could work. All energy for the shot must come from the spring/piston, transfering the energy from the piston to a pellet, then from the pellet to another pellet can only result in a loss of energy.
Another consideration is that if you ram the second pellet half way down the barrel, the effective barrel length (the amount of barrel the second pellet travels from zero to muzzle velocity) is drastically reduced.
The only thing I can think of that explains it is, that there is not restriction of the gas that pushes the second piston, unlike the restriction that were would be from the piston pushing the first pellet. This would only have a small effect however and could be simply gained by drilling out the air transfer port from the piston chamber.
One more factor I just thought of, the compression between the first and second pellet allows dieseling of any oil in the barrel between the two pellets.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 21, 2001 06:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No way, it doesnt take much to push a pellet down a pellet gun barell, as soon as the pressure built up enough for the pellet to move it would be pushed out of the barell.
Of course if the velocity of the gun is high, then yeah, its probably one pellet smashing into the other.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 22, 2001 02:47 AM
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Solve the myth with very simple logic.
The second pellet will travel slower than the first pellet.
The first pellet will travel slower than a pellet which is forced out as the only projectile .
There you have it, the second pellet is not
travelling any faster than one-projectile pellet.
The pop comes from released pressure between
the two pellets, not from sonic boom.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 22, 2001 10:40 AM
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Yeah, that's kind of what I was getting at, just didn't word it very well
Zero
Frequent Poster
Posts: 93
From: ...
Registered: DEC 2000
posted February 23, 2001 04:00 PM
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Now if you'll just explain why pellets I load like that penetrate more, everything will be peachy...
~Zero the Inestimable
Spudgunner
A new voice
Posts: 33
From: MO,USA
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 23, 2001 10:54 PM
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I thought of this a while ago, but was not sure if this is right. What I am thinking, is when you push the pellet down the barrel, backwards of the way you normally push it (I think this is what you mean)then it expands a little, so it is a little tighter than normal. When you fire, the pressure is building from the air and the pellet traveling very fast. The pressure keeps building until BAM! the first pellet farther down the barrel has to release. So, more air is behind it than would normally be behind the pellet. That, or I could be talking without having a clue (probably the latter).
Spud
Ps, forgot to spell check, this is going to take some getting used to.
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 651
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 24, 2001 06:31 AM
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Careful, if this turn into an argument the Mods. will lock it.
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 24, 2001 06:01 PM
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Tighter pellets don't neccessarily mean higher FPS since you're wasting energy to friction.
vehemt
Frequent Poster
Posts: 580
From: Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 24, 2001 08:26 PM
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Well, I am sure that an air rifle has more energy than that is needed to just fire one pellet and as such can use this "reserve" to help this occur (ie, high speed piston). The air rifle doesnt just have exactly enough energy to be used to fire a single pellet.
HMTD Factory
Frequent Poster
Posts: 217
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted February 24, 2001 08:53 PM
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No formal test is shown to prove that the
second pellet actually penetrates more so there won't be explaination as well.
Spudgunner's explaination will work for gunpowder firearm, but not a piston gun.
His idea is that if the peak-pressure is high
then there is more "area under graph" there will be more "punch" stored in the pellet.
(There won't be more air inside piston chamber though).
But the pressure of the piston reach the first pellet first. That is the piston will start to move the first pellet before it can
"feel" the resistance of the second.
When the pressure reaches both, the piston simply "feels" like pushing two pellets.
Those who are interested in testing can shoot
at a phone book under the same condition and
tell whick pellet penetrated more pages.
[This message has been edited by HMTD Factory (edited February 24, 2001).]
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 25, 2001 03:39 PM
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Airgun pellets are designed to make maximum use of the energy release in each shot. A lighter pellet will go faster a heavier pellet will go slower. So two pellets will have the same effect as a pellet twice the weight.
A heavy pellet would create a higher peak pressure inside the piston chamber though, but the heavy projectile would still limit the velocity. The gun will also become damaged from using heavy projectiles.
Testing is the only way to get a definate answer, preferably over a chrono as well as the yellow pages test.