6 & 10 rounds in a detachable magazine for the Mossberg 12 guages.

http://www.knoxx.com/product/sidewinder.html

Not an improvised weapon, but a nifty add-on for those fortunate enough to be able to have a shotgun. They're working on conversions for the 870 too.

With a drum, even a super short shotgun that'll fit under a coat can have firepower. Add a duckbill choke and dragon rounds and you got a serious room sweeper.

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"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

I wish I knew how pump shotguns worked in the first place...

Looks good, mind you.

Excellent post NBK, thanks.

That would be a nice add on to my Mossburg shotgun. Cheaper than a Saiga 12 (AK shotgun). My only concern would be how it reliable it feeds. It is hard enough to clear a jam out of a rifle even worse out of a shotgun. Well atleast it would make changing from buckshot to slugs a lot easier. I might just have to order this after I get my reloading set. But looking at the hype of the company's other stuff like claiming "Even beginner shooters could consistently hit a 12 inch gong at 25 yards with Buckshot--one-handed" with there special stock. Sounds like they hype up their products or bullshit the tests by using buckshot in those 1 3/4 rounds.

When I saw the drum, I thought "This would go great with a super shorty shotgun".

http://www.travellerguns.com/shotguns/shotgun_shorty.gif

http://www.serbu.com/shorty.htm

Small enough to fit under a coat, several 6 round stick mags each loaded with different ammo like flamethrowers, tear gas, flechettes, buck, etc.

Great for hold ups and hits.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

What would be really nice is a Vang Comp barrel on that shorty. It should then hold buckshot groups out to 40 yards. The Vang Comp barrel has a very tight choke. But for hold up type sitations you need either a SMG or a carbine that you can fire one handed.

You can always add a duckbill choke to scatter shot in a nice horizontial spread parrallel to the ground. That and the short barrel insures a nice wide spread, very hard to miss. Something like this isn't a long range weapon, it's strictly room ranged.

That and blowing off locks are for what something like that is for. It is a specialized tool. Some people take the shotgun as the all purpose weapon. I just wanted people to realise it's limitations. Plus the fact something like this must be in a team situation. You won't be able to fire it single handed or if you can you won't be able to reload it. That is very important for tasks that need you in action other than a firefight.

This shotgun would be more useful under a coat if it was on a kind of sling that kept it just below your arm so it can be concealed and pulled out just when you need it. Also a sling would allow you to reload it easyer and you could allow you to dso other things than shoot, I beleve with a properly lengthed sling it would make police rushing tactics less effective and more dangerous to everyone (if you are at that stage you are pretty much fucked anywaye) it would also make unarmed rushing tactics less applicable too.

Yea I had forgot about the attached sling. *I should of remembered that cause I have on my tec-9. *My last and final grip about a shotgun like this is no body amour penetration. *Yea slugs will cause blunt trauma but with such a short weapon how can aim the weapon. *And to control it's large shot pattern you would probably have had to put a choke that won't allow slugs. *As I said it is a special tool and requires a team effort. *It is best for the entry people. Then they switch to better weapons that have been stored. *

if you aim it at neck or knee level you dont have to worry much about body armour

Yea of coarse you can do that but that weapon makes it more difficult because it is harder to aim and remember they have gun to. Trust me I have been trying with my Mossburg pistol grip. It isn't the fastest way to aquire a target. That is why I promote the idea of having a carbine or SMG along with you. That would offer you higher rate of fire. Plus if you are facing guys with armor more than likely he has a buddy. That is why your rate of fire is important. I am not saying shotguns are horrible in CQB but they have to be backed up. Heck a glock with a stock would be a good option. Epecially the 10mm Glocks. 10mm is such a hot round. Or even cheaper and better is a CZ-52 pistol. It's 7.62x25 round is very hot and will penetrate body armor. The shotgun a long with one of these makes a great CQB combination. Just look at any CQB team like SWAT. They use a pistol for point man, shotgun for breecher and MP-5's or some shorter barreled AR for the rest.

what about a vertical choke? a line of lead from head to crotch, it wouldonly take out one person but it would probably hit an unprotected area even if a bullet proof vest has one of those tabs that tucks into your pants to protect your crotch I dont think it'll feel too good.

The vertical choke would be good. As I am trying to say the shotgun would have it's limitations. It isn't imposible to take somone out who has body armor. Just not easy. It is easy to do on the paper but when they start blasting with their MP-5 and the lead is flying it isn't so easy. A carbine you can aim under stress. Well alteast better than a short pistol griped shotgun. I train under stress with the carbine but can't simulate the complete adrenline rush you get. Well I can get close to the rush with some "supplements". There is no way of safely getting away with just the shotgun. If you don't beleive me go to an IDPA event. See if the shooters in CQB prefer the shotgun or carbine. Try going through the coarse with a pistol gripped shotgun only taking headshots. Then try it with a carbine. You will feel more confident in the carbine. The conclusion you will come to is that the shotgun is good for the entry man entering a room.

If you want the adrenaline rush you get in real battles, play paintball. you could also drink seven or eight cokes http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif I just did.

Yea I use to play paintball but I don't get that rush anymore and hurts realism in CQB training. But for my rush I use Thermicore CRT and Andros 7. They are legal supplements. I think they work great.

Flechettes can penetrate soft body armor. Also there's the shotshells shown in my PDF that use hardened steel quarter round sections that will also shred vests. And point blank from a flamethrower round has got to hurt.

I believe the reason the IDPA people use the carbine instead of a shotgun is because they'll get points deducted if any "hostage" targets get hit by a stray bullet or pellet. With this you're not going to get a tight group, it's going to be nice and wide, which is good. And at room range you're going to be hard pressed to miss with a scattergun.

I would certainly hope that anyone who went through the expense of making a gun like this would go through the effort to learn how to use it properly.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

NBK there are different events. Some involve hostages. Some are just blasting the bad guys. Main reason is you can fire and reacquire a target out of a carbine a lot faster than a shotgun. Fleclettes lose speed fast so they aren't recommended for ranges where buckshot can be used. You are right about the room range you won't miss. But if they are armed you will be in trouble unless you have back up. Try to get the follow up shot in about 1 and a half secs to neck or head. It is hard but can be done. And to your point about people going to the expense would train with it. Look at the North Hollywood shot out. Those guys didn't hit crap. Well, neither did the pigs but most cops can't shoot anyway. And you would be suprised how many people in the patriot movement have expensive AKs, H&Ks, AR-15's, FN-FALs and M1As and don't practice one bit. Hell I practice almost every day on mag changes on at least one of my weapons.

The LA bank robbers hit 15 people so they certainly hit something! But the problem was they used AP bullets which just whizzed through the targets leaving nice clean holes. If they used hollowpoints there'd be a lot of dead people.

Ammo selection, not marksmanship, was the problem.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

Is it possible to turn an ordinary round-nosed lead into a hollow-point ? Would a shallow cut with a drill bit work do you think ? Or how about a deeper cut with a steel-core inserted in the hole ?

You can get little miniture lathe machines that make hollow points out of regular rounds. Or maybe just cut a cross into the head of the bullet, you'd have to experiment to make sure they didn't break up in the barrel though.

Look at this shotgun rig http://www.stellarrigs.com/Stellar_Shotgun_Rig.html would be perfect for this. They also offer ones for bullpups, and M11s in .380. The M11 set up is what I have for my Tec. NBK, I didn't know they were using AP ammo. Standard steel core FMJ ammo is sometimes called the most humane bullet. So if it was AP it would be even more clean. But still 15 wounded unless they wounded to make people have to take care of them. Who knows? Bitter, You could take lead target loads and make them into Dun-Duns by taking a knife and hammer and making an X in it.

nice rig, I think I know what I want for antichristmas.
Actually I think it might be better on a bullpup semi
Isnt that dum-dum, and if it is, I thought that was a copper striped bullet

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"I'm not an assassin. killing is more of a hobby with me."' Robert A. Heinlein

[This message has been edited by Heavy Recoil (edited July 17, 2001).]

Found this site with info about another drum fed assualt shotgun. Unfortunately it's in finnish.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/haulikko.html

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

They designed it off the AR-15 appearance. Also looks like the bolt goes back into the stock like an AR-15. That would cut down on recoil big time. But alas I doubt any exist in the good ole US of A. Maybe I can settle on a SPAS-12. That kinda looks like an AR.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nbk2000:
Found this site with info about another drum fed assualt shotgun. Unfortunately it's in finnish.

http://guns.connect.fi/gow/haulikko.html

</font>

I can tell what the article says:

The ASG is an assault shotgun developed and built by gunsmith Maxwell G. Atchisson.

It is not a Finnish weapon. Only the article is in Finnish because the author is Finnish(he writes in English too but that article has never been published in English).

Caliber: 12 /70 mm
Load: Mini-Magnum/ Mark 5
Year of production: 1972
Degree of manufacture: hand-made (of course not, machined http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif)
Quantity produced: Unknown. Possibly only 1 piece
Principle of operation: like in an ordinary SMG, shooting from open-bolt position, but system BECKER/SEMAG/OERLIKON hammer strikes before the round has fully entered the chamber
Modes of Fire: Semi-auto & Full Auto selector.
ROF: With shotshells 360 rounds per minute. With slugs about 380 rounds per minute.
Choke and caliber: Cylinder bore 18.50 mm

Full length: 991 mm
Barrel lenght: 457 mm (18") = "The MORGENTHAU minimum"
Weight: Without an attached magazine 5.2 kg
With an empty 20-round drum 6.1 kg
With a full drum magazine 7.3 kg
With a full 5-round clip 5.8

The standard load: Plastic shell, shot 42.5 grams 00 Buck or 4 Buck.

Bolt's weight: 1360 grams
Magazines: 20-rounds drum and 5-rounds clip

Sights: diopter rear sight. Adjustable front sight. Sights are normally adjusted at 91.4 meters.

Forgot to mention: the trigger mechanism is from a Browning M1918 BAR LMG, the pistol grip is same than in the Thompson SMG (surplus grips) and the front grip is borrowed from an AR-15 http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

Well with all those surplus parts being used that means someone could probably make one in the US. I mean plenty of shotgun barrels, and those parts. I would say the recoil wouldn't be so bad because looks like it has a long spring that takes up a lot of it. Wonder if any blueprints still exist? But alas why fool with that when the SAIGA 12 is avaible. All that takes is modifying mags.

Yeah, recoil can't be very bad... It says the whole 20 rounds could be fired in one burst as fully controlled fire http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/cool.gif

Today I got to know the Saiga 12 is available in Finland too. Hooray!! http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/cool.gifhttp://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/smile.gif

But that super shorty thing is unluckily considered an "any other weapon" here. Why so, you might ask. That's because "any other weapons", especially that kind of, are amongst the most difficult things to get license for. http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

You lucky Americans have a positive meaning for "AOW" http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/tongue.gif

Well super shorty shotguns are considered AOWs in the US too. But I think getting one is the US is easier. That is interesting that you can get the SAIGA 12. Is it the version with pistol grip and folding stock? Can you all get the New Benelli M4 shotgun? Isn't avaible to use mere civies in the US.

[This message has been edited by AR-15 Man (edited August 12, 2001).]

The both versions, but mostly the non-folding model. Getting the folding one can be tricky. It depends where you live, and what kind of firearms you already own and of course you need more and/or better reasons. Quite stupid because the Saiga 12 folding-stock cannot be operated when the stock is folded. And of course stupid in any case http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/mad.gif And the Saiga 12 may of course get banned any moment. There are much antigun ideologies going on now http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/frown.gif

I don't know about the Benelli but possibly... gonna find out some day.

Edit: I'm not sure but I believe overriding the stock-folding-safety can be very easy...

[This message has been edited by SawedOff8gaugeman (edited August 14, 2001).]

Well if you are a US Piggy or an FFL you can get the folding stock version that can fire folded. That locking safety one isn't seen much over here. Oh yea can you all get hi cap mags for it like over 5 rds? I have seen LE only 7 rd mags. Also some custom 10 rd mags.

There is one type of restriction which does not apply here yet. There are no rules on magazine capacity.

The gun comes with 2 pcs 5-rd mags and Full, Mod/Imp and Cyl. chokes. There are also 7 -rd mags for sale. That's no big good news: hunting/game act: You cannot hunt with it if you are carrying the original magazines, because WHEN YOU ARE HUNTING, YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO CARRY MAGS FOR SEMIAUTO WEAPONS WHICH HOLD MORE THAN 2 ROUNDS!! 2 ROUNDS http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/wink.gif That's why 2-round mags are also sold http://theforum.virtualave.net/ubb/smilies/mad.gif I'm getting really pissed... ... ...

Whatever the case may be, I guarantee you that these type of weapon add ons will be banned sooner rather than later. As soon as some politician (thinking fiendstein) gets wind of them, they'll be screaming about "Assault Magazines" and how they don't have any "legitimate sporting purpose".

If I remember correctly, the founders didn't write the constitutional right to bear arms to protect the sporting arms industry, they wrote it to protect the people from domestic tyrants.

Anyways, get them while you can cause they won't last long. Same thing with body armor, 3rd Gen. NVD, .50 rifles, and all other such goodies that make you comparable to the piggies.

------------------
"The knowledge that they fear is a weapon to be used against them"

Go here (http://members.nbci.com/angelo_444/dload.html) to download the NBK2000 website PDF.

Go here (http://briefcase.yahoo.com/nbk2k) to download the NBK2000 videos.

Yea guys stock piling if you can is a very good idea. Even if you don't have a lot of money less than 100 bucks you can get a Turk Mauser with around 480 rounds of ammo. Just buy everything you can. Get a good rifle then night vision then body armor. Well depending on your situation you might wanna get body armor first. But remember agile, mobile and hostile.

Knoxx has just discontinued this magazine system.

http://www.knoxx.com/NewStyleKnoxx/Company/News.htm

Some kits still available, so grab them while you can.

(edited for spelling)

Looks cool, I like it cause, well, It looks like an easy build if you can get the parts, all you really need to do is cut a tube for a receiver, and possibly make a bolt, but I suppose you could find one and modify the mag (if nessacary). I was thinking it would be bad ass in a bullpup configuration.

Sawedoff8gaugeman, doesn't the saiga 12 7 round mag hold 9 rounds?
I bought them under the name " 8 round mag" but i tried to insert 9 rounds and it worked.
The only problem is that in order to change the mag , the action has to be open, but the saiga has no "last round hold open device" that does the job automatic.
And the saiga 12s exp-01 is able to shoot with a collapsed stock.

Sadly the Sidewinder was only ever patent pending. No technical drawings of the drum mag available.

Sadly the Sidewinder was only ever patent pending. No technical drawings of the drum mag available.

You can get patent pending drawings.
US pending Patent 5456153 covers the siderwinder system.
US PP 5600083 covers earlier work on the system.



And some other shotgun drum setups (most require a custom receiver to work:
US Patent 6032395
US Patent 4487103
US Patent 5561258
US Patent 5771620

(edited for my usual spelling errors)

But alas why fool with that when the SAIGA 12 is avaible.

Because not all people have access to the Saiga, and you can build this weapon in a short time, meaning it isn't registered. Plus, the Saiga's just a modified ak 47 (74?), big deal, this guy's an original, despite the fact that it's made from pre-manufactured parts, that is.

In Canada we can't have a Saiga(Bastages!) since the Knoxx Industries unit is kaput, that would leave the Valtro PM-5, but I have heard even these are no longer being made. I did not get a response on this from Valtro USA when I emailed them about a month ago. I opted to get a Remington 870 instead, too bad they didn't make a box magazine kit for these.

I have heard (on the Valtro) that if you cycle the action very positively and don't press the trigger before the bolt/carrier is fully home, they work good, but if you pull the trigger before the action is fully closed, the hammer will drop and you will have to eject the unfired shell to clear. I would like to see a box magazine kit for the Ithaca 37. That would be a bad puppy. We can't have large box/drum magazines on semi auto shotguns up here, but you can have an extended tube mag on an auto.*I'm talking about at the range, not hunting, hunting is 2 shots in the mag. It does not have to make sense, it's Government Policy.

BeerWolf thank you for that info.

The patents you reference give the full developmental history of the Sidewinder unit.

The Atchisson drum mag (Also in the patents above) is a nice design and would possibly be workable on the Holmes pump or semi-auto shotgun designs.

Atchisson had some very interesting designs for weapons and accesories, his patents make for very interesting reading.

Oxbeast- glad it helped.

One can learn a lot just by putting Max Atchisson's name in the patent search engine.
The man invented all sorts of amazing stuff in the firearms field. I have spent hours looking at his patent drawings.

(edited for my crummy typing)

One can learn a lot just by putting Max Atchisson's name in the patent search engine.
The man invented all sorts of amazing stuff in the firearms field. I have spent hours looking at his patent drawings.


US Patent 4553469 which details his magazine fed shotgun should be of use to anyone who is generally interested in detachable magazine shotguns.

The concept he used for the feed mechanism was pretty innovative.

The AA12 Automatic Shotgun (http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=892) is based on an Atchisson design that they bought the rights to after he died.

Very interesting SOF article found from the link in NBK's above post.

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=741

Shows nice pictures and test results of the AA12.

Back in the 80's some Germans tried to get the South Africans interested in the Atchisson prototypes. Tests were very impressive but the drum mag wasn't quite as reliable as would have been liked. Also the SA produced Striker was a cheaper throw-away option at the time.

KNOXX as a company is good to go. I have one of the stocks and it is outstanding. Several SWAT guys bought the sidewinder system and liked it. They like the 8 round magazines instead of drums. It allowed for a quick switch of rounds more easily. Such as breaching rounds to slugs or 00 buck.

Too bad they have halted production it was gaining popularity, however from the sounds of it they have something new coming online soon.

A Stevens Model 58 is a box magazine fed 12 gauge.

It's biggest limitation is rate of fire due to being a bolt action. But it's hell for strong, and surprisingly light. Recoil is very manageable, due to it being chambered for 2 3/4" shells.

While these guns aren't found everywhere, they should be affordable when you do find one.

Fitting it with a drum would be a possibility, as well as a magazine modified for high capacity. That would be very doable.