Hi,

One of my buddies who plays with giant scale R/C tanks was musing about the possibility of using ramset stud/nail gun cartridges to come up with a miniature main gun for his 1/5 scale T-72. This got me thinking about a smoothbore weapon with the Ramset Cartridge set in a breech-block in the style of a Martin Henry rifle. I did some research and found out that MBA Associates of Gyrojet gun fame actually used such a cartridge in their beanbag crowd dispersal baton. Any thoughts on this?

This COULD be accomplished with some fore-thought. The pressure curve of smokeless powder is such that the utilization of RamSet .22's presents some complications. The object being propelled, it's weight and the bore diameter have bearing on that pressure curve. It could be done. The utilization of a smooth bore bbl would decrease the pressure and the trajectory would suffer. Knowing the weight of a given projectile would be key in it's design.

This has already been done, actually one polish guy made a smg that feeds from modified HILTI 6.8mm blanks. And someone made a pistol that uses something similar also.

Pistol using blanks as power source:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xYOW9EZzOBs

SMG using ammunition made from HILTI blanks:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JAyph-wUP0A

And how he made the ammunition:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3eIXGbRTVLs


I'm personally in a pursuit in finding those HILTI blanks in my area.
IF I can get a hold of some and decide to make something similar I might
document the process and compile it into a pdf.

Well ive actually already built something of the sort.
It was a semi-auto .22LR fit inside this big ass R/C tank.
It was not a full sized rifle, rather it was the action of the .22 highly modified to the bare minimum, but it did in fact work... untill that asshole ran it over with his truck on accident :mad:

I can't remember exactly how I put it together as it was a few years ago.
There was an electric motor from another R/C car that did the loading and firing of the gun. It used the Ruger rotary magazine.
When the R/C motor was activated to go in reverse it would push the bolt backwards, ejecting and loading another round while cocking the hammer.
Then the motor would slip off and everything except the hammer goes forward (ready to fire) Now push the motor forward and it hits the trigger and pop. It was something of that nature, also he put a barrel sleeve thing he made on the tank to make it look like a real Panzer barrel. Hope this at all helps.

(cut) Pistol using blanks as power source:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xYOW9EZzOBs
SMG using ammunition made from HILTI blanks:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JAyph-wUP0A
And how he made the ammunition:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3eIXGbRTVLs
I'm personally in a pursuit in finding those HILTI blanks in my area.
If I can get a hold of some and decide to make something similar I might
document the process and compile it into a pdf.
You need to capture the YouTube videos as WMV or AVI or MPG files, for which there are utilities somewhere, and upload them to rapidshare.com or mihd.net.

If you have real player (yes POS program) it has the option built into the program. Just place your mouse over the you tube video and it will ask you if you would like to download it.

Or you could do as I do and copy/paste the URL of the youtube link in a window at keepvid.com and download it that way as a .flv file... Some URL links will allow this and others won't (youtube WILL, though, and googlevid, too), and some you can even download it as .wmv or other better format, but .flv is great for dialuppers as they are smaller.

This has already been done, actually one polish guy made a smg that feeds from modified HILTI 6.8mm blanks. And someone made a pistol that uses something similar also.

Pistol using blanks as power source:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=xYOW9EZzOBs

SMG using ammunition made from HILTI blanks:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=JAyph-wUP0A

And how he made the ammunition:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3eIXGbRTVLs


I'm personally in a pursuit in finding those HILTI blanks in my area.
IF I can get a hold of some and decide to make something similar I might
document the process and compile it into a pdf.


iHME,

Thanks for the links, very interesting stuff, especially using the Hilti blanks and rimming them into a cartridge. I envisaged a seperate blank and bullet configuration much like artillery rounds. All this was done without machine tools according to the comments on Youtube. I have contacted him for more information but yet to hear from him.

By the way, you don't have to stick to Hilti blanks, other brand names like Ramset or any powder actuated tool cartridge will do.

Yes, I could use blanks from other manufacturers, I just personally like the Hilti brand and I know that that particular brand is available here. I just found out that there should be a tool rental shop in a 30min walking radius of my home.
Let's se if I can bring my self for a little expedition. It might tough take some time, I'm afraid that I have frogotten the exact location. :rolleyes:
Well thats just a challenge. ;)

I think all the cartrides are the same. The "powers .27 long" for example works for Ramset and Hilti tools, too.


I made a small drawing on an improvised Ramset cartridge and added some comments. Is it suicidal, genius or somewhere between? Just kidding :rolleyes:

http://rapidshare.com/files/76133692/full_metal_core.pdf.html

Turn left, to read the comments. I hope they work.

As guns and factory ammunition are impossible for me to obtain, I've turned to improvisation. I received a few hundred .22 blanks for a nail-gun or some similar tool from a friend whose father is a builder and uses Ramset tools, as a gift; here is some .410 (except it's rimfire) and .22 ammo fashioned from them.

.410 and .22
http://i15.tinypic.com/8av5em8.jpg

.410 diagram
http://i11.tinypic.com/8c3sj1z.png

.410 components
http://i3.tinypic.com/6luhzki.jpg

.410 gunpowder
http://i2.tinypic.com/8eswu4h.jpg

The .410 was made from a plastic (the plastic is the thick flexible type, not the brittle plastic that shatters) tube from a colouring ink pen that has the correct outer-diameter.
1 - Toilet paper wad pressed into the tube, then the end is heated and bent around the wad to form the 'crimp' part.
2 - Small steel ball bearings poured in.
3 - Toilet paper wad compacted hard above the steel shot.
4 - Four cut-open .22 "yellow" Ramset blanks worth of gunpowder poured above the wad.
5 - The primer end is cut off a blank, and inserted for use as the shell's primer.

The .22 ammo is simpler, the yellow Ramset .22 blank's crimp end was cut off leaving it 15-16mm long, a toilet paper wad inserted, cyanoacrylate glue sqirted in, and a ~6mm dia steel-BB glued on the end.

These cartridges are going to be for homemade guns that haven't been built as of yet. The .410 is not centrefire due to the .22 primer, but I'll make two holes in the breach block so I can change between rimfire and centrefire firing pins so the firearm can use both improvised and factory ammo. The .22 ammo will be used for a homemade smoothbore pistol.

The .410 doesn't have a brass base, and like I said I have no experience using or even touching a firearm, just some reading and researching. It'll still work without the brass base, right? Just be difficult to extract perhaps? Luty's improvised 12GA ammo is all plastic too. Also, the base of the .410 isn't flat and because of that I'm scared that the bit of the base around the primer will explode out since it's not sitting against the breach block. I think that making a 'ditch' in the breach block for the exposed .22 primer to sit in, so that it's all flush with the breach block will work.

So, yeah, in conclusion I haven't tested any of this! I'm just throwing my ideas out to the community, and they may not work or may be dangerous, and I'm open to corrections, thanks.

nice drawing mate.

About your comments:

I don't think half loading is a problem, I used to do it when I was shooting for sports using a Lee-enfield mk4 .303 british. It is a reasonably powerful cartridge, so I used to load them with less powder for matches (20 rounds full powered gave me bruises, and matches consist of 150 rounds over 10 targets).

I would also suggest using some lead projectile instead of a copper one, copper is quite expensive. Just order a lead rod in the projectile's caliber (remember, the bullets be square, not round nosed or tipped. in a fast constructed smg this could cause feeding problems).

There are devices with which you can cast your own bullets, but I don't know how you call these things and where you can order them. I've never had any use for them...

If I'm mistaken in any of the above I've said, please correct me.

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that those are going to be single-shot weapons. The plastic doesn't look nearly thick enough to hold the pressure, and the cartridge is likely to fly backwards out of that when you fire it. Or, does the big long plastic thing get loaded into a steel tube firearm?

As for the comment about the bullets being "Square" what neetje meant (I hope) is that they should be lined up neatly, rather than geometrically cube-related. Square bullets would provide no gas sealing, you see.

Test fire your design with a higher charge than you would normally use, and do it remotely, so that you keep your fingers intact, and you can trust your design when later fired with less powder.

Let us know how you get on. (I assume you are UK based - take a lot of care!)

Hmm, I'm pretty sure that those are going to be single-shot weapons. The plastic doesn't look nearly thick enough to hold the pressure, and the cartridge is likely to fly backwards out of that when you fire it. Or, does the big long plastic thing get loaded into a steel tube firearm?


No, pictured are two different types of improvised ammo--.410 shotgun and .22. The shotgun shell's plastic case is not a .22 barrel, which is I think what you thought. The .410 uses a .22 primer, and the long shell will be loaded into a thick seamless steel tube, and will have a breach block so it won't fly backwards.

As to whether they will be single-shot: the shotgun I'd like to make either single-shot or bolt-action with a magazine. And I plan to build something with revolving multiple barrels ('pepper box') or multiple chambers and one barrel (i.e. revolver) for the .22.

Now I have a glued-on washer around the primer to form a more sturdy rim (the original rim before was just the plastic tube heated, and pressed against the table to form a plastic rim).

See here: http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b205/aspj00/DSCF1800.jpg?t=1199673214

As for the comment about the bullets being "Square" what neetje meant (I hope) is that they should be lined up neatly, rather than geometrically cube-related. Square bullets would provide no gas sealing, you see.

I meant the bullet shape when using a cylindrical rod and cutting the bullets from that. It's not a FMJ of a JHP, the bullet is a perfect cylinder, so the tip is flat, not pointed. If you use Luty's design, such bullets will give you feeding problems, because the cartridge will not go smoothly out of the magazine, causing the bolt to jam.

(I'm sorry for my bad usage of the English language in my previous post, I'm Dutch)


Test fire your design with a higher charge than you would normally use, and do it remotely, so that you keep your fingers intact, and you can trust your design when later fired with less powder.

I've always been told not to overload the first test. Start with low charges and add them up until you get the effect you want to have. Starting with higher loads and not having tested the capabilities of your gun might blow it up.

Remote firing will prevent you getting harmed, but will destroy the gun after the first shot if anything goes wrong...

Perhaps using parts from the Ramset tool might simply construction and have a barrel and assembly designed to take the pressure.

Finally bought some HILTI blanks. Those are some expencive fuckers. They cost 20eur for a box of 100pcs, for reference 500pcs .22lr cost 20eur and 50pcs 9mm jhp cost 20eur. Of course both 9mm and .22lr are not available without proper licenses.

On the good side, I found a piece of pipe where the HILTI blanks fit perfectly :)
I also bought a vise and a stand thing which can be used as a cheap drill press.
It is also easier to file trigger and sear parts if you can secure them firmly.
Thanks to my improvised drill press I can finally drill straight holes. Too bad that my first barrel was drilled of center. Well the second barrel is starting up nicely.

I think we should make a thread about improvised reloading, sometime.

Pic of the blanks:
http://s236.photobucket.com/albums/ff315/iHME/?action=view&current=IMG_5473_this.jpg

I see you got the red variant. The yellow .27 short cost me €10,- for a 100 piece box. I think I'll go get some red and black .27 Long ones this week, so I get a little bit closer to .32 acp/9mm power. The yellow ones are more like a .22lr +P+ (I don't know if these exist, but I think you get the point).

More videos for you Ramset enthusiasts :

".22 caliber rifle" by atomicengineer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEUGQ4K3t04


Gun from some guy DeanORiordanhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bX_YxksEu14

Damn Killy, I was just about to post those videos. Well lets wait till I find time to finish my pistol. Then well see whos the first poster ;)

I've always been told not to overload the first test. Starting with higher loads and not having tested the capabilities of your gun might blow it up.
Remote firing will prevent you getting harmed, but will destroy the gun after the first shot if anything goes wrong...

Years back I built several Black Powder, and a few smokeless, firearms and always "Proof tested" the gun 1st thing. This ensured that the gun was more than able to withstand a regular load. I forget the rule of thumb for smokless powder but for B.P. arms it was a double load (dbl. powder with 2 projectiles) For smokeless it was a lot less, I just can't recall it though.

This established that you had a viable platform to work with. If you tried to ease up on it by using reduced loads, you could waste a lot of ammo if your gun blows up at a less than required load. :(


The .410 was made from a plastic (the plastic is the thick flexible type, not the brittle plastic that shatters) tube from a colouring ink pen that has the correct outer-diameter.

These cartridges are going to be for homemade guns that haven't been built as of yet. The .410 is not centrefire due to the .22 primer, but I'll make two holes in the breach block so I can change between rimfire and centrefire firing pins so the firearm can use both improvised and factory ammo. The .22 ammo will be used for a homemade smoothbore pistol.

The .410 doesn't have a brass base, and like I said I have no experience using or even touching a firearm,

Back in the 70's the Wanda Corp. made commercial shotgun shells out of a rigid plastic. I have them in 20,16 and 12 bauge but don't recall a .410. They didn't go over well because the the bottom 1/3 of the shell would break loose upon extraction., leaving the remainder of the shell stuck in the chamber.

My biggest concern with the base of your cartridges is the possibility of gas leakage past either the .22 "primer" or from the casing fracturing. Blowback thru the firing pin hole could easily blind, maim or even kill the shooter. Depending upon the design of the gun, the bolt/breechblock could become a projectile, flying out the back of the gun.:eek:

I would be very carefull with this as the .410 develops a higher chamber pressure than the larger gauge shotguns.

Very imaginative thinking on your part. Hope you continue to develop and refine your project...

In modern facilities the proof testing is not only a overpressure test but also an examination of the metallic crystalline structure of the chamber/barrel. There are (on occasion) micro fissures (cracks) that cannot be seen with the unaided eye. In fact the use of x-ray photography (that which is used for welding, etc) is used a great deal when evaluating a given manufacturing process. Today the steel used in firearms construction is very unique in a variety of ways.

Strum-Ruger actually developed the stainless it uses (in conjunction with a steel manufacturer) to a greater extent than many are aware of. This material has a unique format of being flexible, yet retaining an "edge" (lands & grooves) in thin sectional proportions. The company has stated several times that more R/D money went into that steel than into unit production itself.

What about the 9mm blanks for blank guns? The only place I can find those Hilti blanks are from work. Im thinking the 9mm blanks are weaker mainly because there just used as noise makers.

9mm blanks have been used tough I'd believe that they have less power than HILTI's.
As a side note I found HILTI blanks in a normal hardware shop only 11,95 eur a box!
Compared to the 20eur for a box and the fact that tool rental shops are sometimes hard to find
this is a marvelous thing. When visiting a hardware shop keep on the look for HILTI ad's and "HILTI ProShop" signs those could lead you to the precious blanks. Too bad that whem I was at the store they had only green and yellow blanks in stock both red and black ware missing. Good thing that I have already a box of 100 red HILTI blanks.