Fertilizer acquisition is about to get a lot harder. There is nothing like swift and decisive government action, and it has only been a mere 12 years since the Oklahoma City bombing, but the fedgov is finally getting around to regulating the stuff.

I was already under the impression that nitrate based fertilizers were watched by the fedgov, but I guess not legally.

Yesterday, the House of Representatives overwhelmingly passed HR 1680 by voice vote.

Basicially the bill says if you buy ammonium nitrate you must first register with the fedgov, and your name goes on “The List.” Your name will be compared with the “List of Known Bad Guys” and if there is a match you get… well, you get fucked.

For further illumination see these websites:
http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5ijxFJjj9U0kTBO67xJPcV4M9gSgA
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-23-2007/0004688278&EDATE=
http://public.cq.com/docs/cqm/cqmidday110-000002611139.html
http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/23/america/NA-GEN-US-Ammonium-Nitrate.php

Now we can be safe and secure in the knowledge that neither farmer nor terrorist (as if there is a difference) will be able to navigate the maze of fedgov bureaucracy to ever again obtain fertilizer. Surly this is the latest strategy to “starve out the terrorists.” If no one grows any food the terrorists will starve. What can possibly go wrong with that plan? What? Everyone else starves too? There are always acceptable losses in the war of terror.

I don't understand why the government keeps on thinking that banning things will solve anything. What's next, banning soap because you can splash it into someone's eyes and it would hurt? Fertilizer does have a number of uses that do not involve blowing things up (surprise!), and there are many, many more ways to blow things up than they could ever prevent by banning everything. And even if they did ban everything, we always still have our ex-commie buddies waiting to sell whatever to whomever for however much they are willing to pay because they need money to pay for their 38 children trapped in Siberia with no food or money. Practically everything is illegal in prison, and yet they still come up with new and imaginative ways to kill each other every day. Criminals are obviously not the smartest people out there (they got caught), so why can't they realize that to a creative and intelligent person, EVERYTHING can be used as a weapon? This forum alone has already discussed how to kill almost anyone with almost anything, and this is just one small group of people in a country of 300 million people (and let us not forget the UK) in a world of 6 billion. Maybe, instead of making everything illegal, they should try to NOT give people a reason to blow everything up in the first place. Now isn't that a novel thought, preventing something from happening by not pissing off people who have demonstrated time after time that they will retaliate if provoked. Maybe we should have a government made up of people who might actually be able to problem-solve on at least a sixth-grade level.

Watch them try to ban water.

Panzer, they KNOW banning it will solve something, just not necessarily advantageous to the US citizen. :) And as for bans, this is only the beginning. If no one does anything, it will only get worse. You have bring up completely valid points. But realize, since when did the (recent) government use logic and reason in their decisions? If considerable masses begin to get upset over their decisions, the fedgov will simply use the 'news' to pacify them, or tell them they are wrong, end of story.

What reason do the feds have to stop what they are doing? This is only making their job much easier! It must be from an outside source who must change this...

Maybe it's about time that someone shows them that fertilizer's not the only thing that can make a big, cheap boom...

Unless they intend on banning electricity and water (probably the last things that they will ban that can be used as a bomb), they will have to realize that they cannot make any headway and that we will win eventually. Even if they do ban everything, who needs anything? People in Africa have been comitting genocide for centuries, even before they even saw gunpowder. And since I last checked, they can't ban trees and rocks, so we can always spear/stone them to death. Maybe, if we're lucky, they will ban trees and the militant branch of Greenpeace will descend upon them like the nature-loving minions of Satan and demons of eternal misery that they are. Then, we could get the abortion clinic bombers to attack the government, and tell the Muslims to keep up the good work and pretty soon, they'll give up. Actually, blow up CNN and you win, first round. What will the government do without their little puppet?

Just an update here: the local feed & grain had already shifted to selling calcium nitrate due to the "Be Aware America" campaign from the Fertilizer Institute. It's been in place for about a year or so. No one needs ammonium nitrate except tobacco farmers or guys who have to shift their crop format from a area that has been scrubbed of top-soil (that means when you've been farming an area with cotton for 12+ years and the soil is sand and now you want to farm a non-grain like lettuce or carrots).

There is also a certain time of year when you nitrate the soil. You try to buy a nitrate when you don't know what you're talking about and it stands out like a sore thumb. Just like a local farmer isn't buying for two acres in bags or has a name like The Prophet or Abdulla.

OK, so I'm "Kevin" or "Johnny" down at the local feed & grain and I have to maintain sales records & check buys against terrorist watch lists. But I don't like to do all that "reading & studying".

Retailers who refuse to sell to customers would be exempt from civil liability lawsuits. So I say "Fuck this, I ain't about to sell to any fucking raghead". But I have a 9th grade education so I don't sell to anyone who has any head covering other than a Baseball cap.

What are we getting with this "LIST"? That's (IMO) the question we should be asking....

This is "feel good" legislation. It won't stop any determined individual. I have a feeling that we should cut to the chase and make all Islamic individuals wear a yellow crescent on their chest (statement obviously is facetious).

Facetious... but a good idea (in principal at least - who knows as well as we that anyone with any intent would just ignore it). Most undesirables have some identifying feature - black skin, slanty eyes, etc - but religion/ethics are all in the head. So some method of knowing who not to sell to is needed, ideally.

As to banning fertilizer... This is just proof that your (the American) government is falling apart at the seams. Admittedly, you're still, in some ways, doing better than the UK... but it's a close thing.

Who's with me on pooling the funds of the Roguesci membership, buying a couple of surplus aircraft carriers, sailing to point Nemo, and declaring ourselves an independent state?

This is "feel good" legislation. It won't stop any determined individual.

Most bans are feel good legislation, in fact a ban is the leftist form of buggery, its a form of action and it may make you feel good, but it will never produce any results.

Who's with me on pooling the funds of the Roguesci membership, buying a couple of surplus aircraft carriers, sailing to point Nemo, and declaring ourselves an independent state?

I prefer to build a platform on a seamount, there is one off of California close to L.A., we could make a fortune selling explosives to gang bangers! :D

What determined terrorist would purchase the ammonium nitrate to begin with? You don't walk into your local redneck shop and buy a hand gun for a murder do you? This is just putting one slightly more annoying hurdle between the skilled demolition enthusiast and a truck full of nitrate. Since buying the stuff is out of the question, stealing it forces the prospective terrorist to use more stealthy methods and provide even more anonymity since no witnesses will be able to finger him later.

Controlling the substance makes sense on paper. Just like marijuana and guns, it makes perfect sense to regulate them, but in practice... you get the idea.

We could declare ourselves an independent state but no one would ratify us, and the second they find our exorbitant sales of munitions to anyone with the cash they'd sink our platform and chuckle about it over their caviar/baby liver dinner while the media makes a killing broadcasting the plumes as our private stockpiles belch from the depths.

No my (only) friends, openly declaring ourselves against the powers that be is folly. Guerrilla tactics are my preferred mode of warfare anyways. What we should be doing is forging a future president, surely someone on this forum is in a position who could influence one of the political parties. Perhaps in 8-16 years we could see a forumite in the house... Lobbyist's is another worthy goal, influencing the government in any way would be beneficial. Perhaps even getting someone on a cabinet or in the secret service where his comments and administration of various chemical agents could work their magic on politically powerful individuals.

Yes the American government is falling apart, yes we'll either unite against a common enemy (china comes to mind) or we'll likely turn on each other, but the current powers will hold it together as long as they can suck wealth out of the failing country(or until they no longer think it's safe for their skins (; ).

The idea of roguesci becoming a political power seems like a good one, get NBK as president of the USA and he can ban the other politicians for bad grammer :)

My first act as President would be to impale Bush for rape of the English language. :D

Defense of the mother tongue notwithstanding, I don't think NBK as president would benefit America in any long-term evaluation. After all, it needs SOME population, and in the USA, once the muds, ragheads, kewls, idiots, low-IQ obese parasites and politicicos have been exterminated, you wouldn't have anything close to enough people for that amount of landmass remaining. Any guesses as to what the proportion of people who would survive is? One in a thousand?

This would apply almost as much to Britain. To think, I used to be so proud that I was British... then I grew up, and realised that we gave away an Empire, devalued a strong pound, are almost half French, collapsed a continent (Africa), and have a population of immigrants exceeding that of people born here. And that our government is led around by the nose by the president of a country only a third of the age of my SCHOOL!

Maybe I should pack up and leave for New Zealand...

All that freed up space becomes happy hunting grounds for the endangered Naturalis Born Killium to hunt roaming herds of feral k3wLz. :)

Maybe I should pack up and leave for New Zealand...

I wouldn’t if I were you, she isn’t so grand down here.

Auckland has more Samoans than Samoa, Asians, Indians and immigrants are on the rise big time while the educated young whites are leaving in their droves.

They banned individual sales of sparklers from Guy Fawks, because of the kewyl bombs. We wont even have fireworks in the next two years at this rate.

Hazardous Substances New Organism Act is here and about to make it more difficult to do anything. They charge duty of lab ethanol products now including meths, unless you have a standing order. Although its now (not recently but within the last 7 years) legal to make ethanol but not sell it.

They arrested Tame Iti (which was good, because who needs a Maori radical) under the Terrorism Act, but then the media went hysterical and convinced a lot of the sheep that it was a good thing. He had a "napalm bomb" and Molotov Cocktails people, clearly if we didn’t get him he would stock pile these deadly and stable explosive devices and kill us all.

We still have nitrate fertilizer, but we will see how long that lasts now.

I have always contended that the arab terrorists are one trick ponies, meaning when they get a plan they stick to that plan over, and over, and over again. I can see why the fedgov might think the terrorists are that stupid to walk into a redneck shop and buy a gun for murder. These guys are completly unimaginative and inflexible. If something works for them once they keep on doing the same thing.

There has not been a major terrorist attack since 9/11 because the terrorists likely have spent most of their time and resources figuring how to hijack an airplane... again. Maybe I am a nonconformist to the terror union, but if I hit a target, I would never do the same thing twice. If they never hit the same target twice in the same way then all the beefed up airport security would mean nothing because they would attack something else. The fedgov is not always stupid, so when they throw everything they have into airport security it's because the terrorists are going to hit the airport... again.

What is to stop a guy from buying a farm and growing beets for three years using ammonium nitrate fertilizer, but on the fourth year using the fertilizer to build a bomb? Will the fedgov analyze the soil to make sure every farmer has fertilizer concentrations commensurate with their ammonium nitrate purchase? Or will they assume terrorists are all impatient hotheads who want instant results.

We really are in trouble if some jihades have been patiently farming produce for the last 6 years and are getting ready to divert their legitimate fertilizers to a bunch of bombs.

As to banning fertilizer... This is just proof that your (the American) government is falling apart at the seams. Admittedly, you're still, in some ways, doing better than the UK... but it's a close thing.

Who's with me on pooling the funds of the Roguesci membership, buying a couple of surplus aircraft carriers, sailing to point Nemo, and declaring ourselves an independent state?

Yep, America is in decline, it should be marked similar to those obsolete parts "Not for free people anymore". Like Ben Franklin said "A society that will trade a liberty for security will lose both and deserve neither."

Regarding declaring independent state, I'll be starting an online group soon with a goal of developing technology for living on an island.

BTW, you can make Am Nitrate from Am Sulfate and Calcium Nitrate. Ca Sulfate should precipitate leaving dissolved Am Nitrate. These are available as fertilizers for a few bucks a 50lb bag. I din't try that yet, but similar reactions worked just fine.

It is theoretically possible (with enough research capital) to build a small scale ammonium nitrate generating machine for agricultural use. I have heard of this being proposed as a very low cost enabling farmers to independently produce their own fertilizer as they need it, thus cutting out the middle man suppliers, delivery, storage, and fedgov red tape. The machine would use natural gas and air as the only chemical sources, reproducing both the Haber process and Ostwald process in a self contained system to produce ammonium nitrate. The incomplete combustion of natural gas forms CO and hydrogen; add more air to burn off the CO leaving only hydrogen, nitrogen, and CO2; the CO2 is scrubbed out leaving only nitrogen and hydrogen; Haber process forms ammonia; some ammonia forms nitric acid via the Ostwald process; the nitric acid and ammonia are combined forming ammonium nitrate.

The chemistry is well known, only the heating and pressurizing components need to be miniaturized into a self contained package that can be operated with no more complexity and maintenance than an automobile. Estimated cost is about $5k to $10k for the machine, but it would pay for itself very quickly.

The trend towards micromanufacturing enables goods traditionally produced by large scale factory complexes to be made locally by small entities thus avoiding the expense of shipping and handling. Technology like this will be the death of cheap labor countries like China because Americans can make their own cheap goods, using locally recycled or harvested materials, using machine labor, without having to get it from the other side of the world.

For a farmer to make his own fertilizer, fuel, pesticides, etc., would be a great boon. It is also very difficult to ban that which you can make yourself. The terrorist implications are also there, but they can just as easily make a bomb out of gasoline and natural gas as to go through all the trouble to make ammonium nitrate. A bomb using natural gas or gasoline might not be as destructive as a conventional high explosive material, but imagine what the government would do to regulate the sale of natural gas and gasoline after that. It would be a nightmare of complexity, maybe impossible to accomplish, and likely would make fuel prices triple overnight. The terrorists win if they can hit us in the pocket book, that's the only way the average American can relate to a terrorist incident nationwide. A few dead New Yorkers is a sad fact of someone else's life, but cause prices everywhere to jump and now we are all pissed.

What I can't figure out is why they chose now to ban the stuff. 911 didn't even use explosives (according to the commission report) and the last incident of terrorists using the stuff would have been Oklahoma city, in our country any ways. Granted people have been working on this a while and the farmers bureau lobbyists have been slowing it down, I just don't see what changed their minds so suddenly.

This shouldn't effect the home hobbyists too much any ways. Unless your into large scale solid fuel rockets you don't really need that much nitrate for the types of tests we do. If you can't help your sexual urges to witness massive explosions, however, I recommend you investigate fuel-air devices or try your luck with thermobarics. In many instances these can be even cheaper than anfo charges for a similar effect.

"The trend towards micro manufacturing enables goods traditionally produced by large scale factory complexes to be made locally by small entities thus avoiding the expense of shipping and handling. Technology like this will be the death of cheap labor countries like China because Americans can make their own cheap goods, using locally recycled or harvested materials, using machine labor, without having to get it from the other side of the world."

Not if corporate America can help it... (i.e. banning everything you need to "DIY").

"The terrorists win if they can hit us in the pocket book" Beautifully said, as cold as it makes the American people sound it's exactly true. However, hitting us in the pocket book doesn't really benefit them does it? Where does that money really go? Faking terrorist attacks sounds like a pretty good idea to me based on this: "and likely would make fuel prices triple overnight". I don't know about you, but me, given the proper political position, I wouldn't hesitate to fake terrorist attacks on my own people. Assuming you could cover it up sufficiently, you could be a god for the remainder of your term in office, and apparently you don't even have to be intelligent to pull it off.

9/11 didn't use explosives, good one.

Governments are always exempt from possession of terrible engines of destruction. ;)

While I am opposed to them, the federal restrictions on AN post little trouble for experimenters. I have made 200 to 500 gram batches easily from homemade HNO3 and drafting room NH4OH. For blasting jobs like tree stumps, I much prefer low-order stuff like rocket candy "sweetened" with potassium ferrocyanide. AP once tried to kill me after a successful stump job; and all of Ragnar Benson's words of warning came back while my eardrum was regenerating for 10 days. AN will always be available, at least with a little effort. "A book does not a cook make...unless it's by Tenny Davis!"

Granted people have been working on this a while and the farmers bureau lobbyists have been slowing it down, I just don't see what changed their minds so suddenly.

Actually I have been following this issue. The substitution of CALCIUM NITRATE for ammonium nitrate in mid-level and larger agri-business has been successful. The only real demand for ammonium nitrate in agriculture is in tobacco farming. There, they need to stick with AN. But CN can be used in [most all other] areas wherein there is a need for strong salt nitrates in soil enhancement.

Calcium nitrate is now freely available in rural areas that once had AN sold in non-bulk (delivered at site) orders or small scale sales. I encourage people to STUDY the availability of materials that they may want to experiment with one day....if you learn where to buy them; do so ASAP! As time goes on they may not be available again. I had found sources of materials that today are gone for good. Had I the foresight to buy them, I would have.

As little as a few years back there were sources for powdered metals, that today are either completely unavailable or ridiculously expensive. Buying ammonium nitrate in "cold packs" for several dollars is strange as the real cost is actually less than a few pennies. The same can be said for a great amount of materials. Either act today or wish you had tomorrow.

This is not available in the agricultural shops in my area. I've gotten some
from cold packs if I need a small amount. What is available, and very cheap,
is calcium nitrate and ammonium sulphate. As someone pointed out, the
metathesis reaction is great because calcium sulphate precipitates out
instantly.

We can still use the available calcium nitrate and drain cleaner to make HNO3 (if you have a still), which can then be used to make AN when it is needed.

Cold packs still seem to be a non-suspicious way of obtaining AN, and isn't too pricey if you search the net.

And for now we still have stump remover being sold in most places (not where I live anymore though :() which gives you KN at $5 a pound :(.

Watch them try to ban water.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO0709/S00211.htm

I think we should start taking bets on what the idiots in charge try to do next.

ROFLMAO ! Once again, a shit-for-brains, fell for a hoax, without reasoning it
out. I bet her handlers are hiding in total embarassment. I used "kewl"
because she's as equally stupid ! A perfect example of the type of person
who shouldn't be allowed to reproduce let alone have a position in
government.

It's kind of sad to think about really, but whats worse is that the other drug she was trying to ban (BZP), which she did equal amounts of homework on no doubt, actually did get banned.
It's the 'stuff is bad, lets ban it!' mentality that really fucks people over, talk to most people about drugs and they will be fine with anything legal, but as soon as you cross over to weed they go on about all the side effects which make smoking it the dumbest possible choice you could ever make in your life.
If they bothered to read up and see that all the legal drugs have most of, if not all the negative side effects and possibly less of the good.

I am not sure if I am correct on this or if it has been mentioned but from what I have been reading the ban (or restrctions of h.r. 1680) on ammonium nitrate has not taken effect yet it still has to be passed by the senate and signed by the president, the only action taken so far is a voice vote by the house so go buy it up in bulk, save it for later, or sell it when it quadruples in price.

Let me explain something about ammonium nitrate & the reason why it was not dropped when Shumer (D-NY) originally proposed it's banning... There are certain soil conditions that for certain crops; demand this particular enhancement and nutrient as fertilizer. As only one example, tobacco, grown in S. Carolina needs ammonium nitrate as the soil conditions demand it, especially after several successive seasons of hard rain and yield from specific acreage.

Farmers in that area would have a tough time substituting most anything else. Representatives of that area would be vehemently opposed to any ban as it would affect their earning ...viciously. There are many, many other scenarios much more politically correct than tobacco, but that's one I thought of quickly.

Ammonium Nitrate (fertilizer) is also used for grape vines along with regular fertilizer (10-10-10) and epsom salt (Magnesium Sulfate).
So if you grow grapes, you need Ammonium Nitrate.

I have a buddy who grows table and wine grapes. I'll have to ask him what he thinks...

I also found this editorial. I think its pretty funny.
http://www.progress.org/fold226.htm

This is my favorite quote:

But defense against violence and terror is a legitimate activity for the governance of a people, and we face greater dangers now than ever before.

What a dork. Ban Acetone now too, because we face greater dangers than ever before!

ROFLMAO ! Once again, a shit-for-brains, fell for a hoax, without reasoning it
out. I bet her handlers are hiding in total embarassment. I used "kewl"
because she's as equally stupid ! A perfect example of the type of person
who shouldn't be allowed to reproduce let alone have a position in
government.

Saying stupid people shouldn't work in government is like saying mosquitoes shouldn't bite.