I hope this is the right section for this question. I was thinking a while ago about torture methods and I thought, "Hey pepper spray is pretty hot, what about injecting it?"
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The two best places I can think to inject it would be into the fluid in the eye and (of course) directly into the blood stream.
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Now my questions are:
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1) Is the "Fluid" in the eye really a fluid that the pure capsaicin (sp) oil could mix in so it would achive its effects on the flesh inside the eyeball, or is the "fluid" more of a jelly that wouldn't mix with the oil and not let it interact with the interior of the eyeball?
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2) I assume that the capsaicin would react with the lining of the veins, etc. but what action would it have on the heart, this is meant as a method of torture and not execution so killing the victim is not what I want.
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So does anyone out there have any answers to these questions and would this make a viable torture method? I can imagine the eye would be quite painful (if it worked) but the victim would have to be restrained to make sure they didn't tear out their own eye.
MONOBLOCKS!
Oh yes, and I am not a sick fuck, just so you know. :D
NBK2000

The main active ingredient of pepper spray is Capsaicin.

It doesn't look like injecting Capsaicin would be a good idea.

LD50 Intravenous Rodent - mouse 400 ug/kg
LD50 Intramuscular Rodent - mouse 7800 ug/kg

You'd probably want at least a 100-fold safety margin (to account for interspecies and intraspecies variation) and even then you'd probably kill a fair number. I wouldn't inject i.v. more than 30 ug into a person that I definately wanted to keep alive (0.4 ug/kg - a 1000-fold safety margin over the animal LD50).


But interestingly (no idea why this would be tested)

LD50 Rectal Rodent - mouse >218 mg/kg

now there's a nasty thought.

An injection of standard white vinegar in the muscles produces crippliing pain, like the worst charley horse you've ever had x100, without systemic complications like injecting an inflammatory agent into the blood would have.

So I'd vote NO on using capsaicinoids as injectables.

Further information on OC:
http://www.zarc.com/english/cap-stun/tech_info/oc/#different

The burning sensation from capsaicin is due to its action on the calcium channel in the nerves. This is why it is used in many liniments. It is also why it loses effect after a short time. The nerves' calcium channel are not given a chance to reset. The calcium channel is seperate from the sodium/potassium channel usually thought of.

An LD50 for rectal application? At least the mouse would die with its hemorroids burnt out.

It doesn't look like injecting Capsaicin would be a good idea.

LD50 Intravenous Rodent - mouse 400 ug/kg
LD50 Intramuscular Rodent - mouse 7800 ug/kg

I wouldn't inject i.v. more than 30 ug into a person that I definately wanted to keep alive (0.4 ug/kg - a 1000-fold safety margin over the animal LD50).


So I'd vote NO on using capsaicinoids as injectables.


Well it was an idea. But what about injection into the eyeball, would the Capsaicin filter into the blood or remain in the viscera?

An injection of standard white vinegar in the muscles produces crippliing pain, like the worst charley horse you've ever had x100, without systemic complications like injecting an inflammatory agent into the blood would have.


Thats in interesting idea, and its a common substance. Are there other subtances that can induce pain without premenant injury?

Further information on OC:
http://www.zarc.com/english/cap-stun.../oc/#different

Thanks I'll look it up.

But interestingly (no idea why this would be tested)

LD50 Rectal Rodent - mouse >218 mg/kg

now there's a nasty thought.

No idea why this has never been tested? Obviously you've never eaten Indian Food. :eek:

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Sorry, I will remember in the future.

I'm sure there are other substances, but that's something for you to find for yourself.

As for eyeball injection, I don't think the eye would feel pain like that inside, but it would very likely blind them. A spoon to the eyeball would achieve the same effect.

Capsaicin causes nerve damage so blindness is a definite possibility. By the way how to you expect to get it in someones eye without ripping off their cornea?

I'm sure there are other substances, but that's something for you to find for yourself.

Self taught is well taught, eh?

As for eyeball injection, I don't think the eye would feel pain like that inside, but it would very likely blind them. A spoon to the eyeball would achieve the same effect.

Yes but a spoon to the eyeball would look like torture, the point of using injectible chemicals it to torture someone without leaving obvious evidence of torture (although I suppose blindness would be noticeable.) That is the great thing about electricity as a torture device.

Capsaicin causes nerve damage so blindness is a definite possibility. By the way how to you expect to get it in someones eye without ripping off their cornea?

Inject it as a liquid into the eyeball with a syringe.

What I mean is someone isn't gonna sit around while you shoot capsaicin into their eye. The struggling and thrashing would probably cause their cornea to tear and/or deep puncture into the optical nerve or braincase.

Learning is like traveling.

If your destination is on the other side of the planet, do you learn more about the world by being instantly transported from where you are at to your destination, or by having traveled by foot across the globe?

With learning, the journey IS the destination.

Now, as regards the spoon, you don't have to use it (most likely) to pull out the eye, as who would not tell you what you want as you begin pushing the spoon into their eye-socket?

Whereas, with a needle, that's a more abstract threat...not as visceral as a spoon, as everyone knows what a spoon is used for, having used spoons for SCOOPING. ;)

Now, as regards the spoon, you don't have to use it (most likely) to pull out the eye, as who would not tell you what you want as you begin pushing the spoon into their eye-socket?
Just think of in Rambo II where the torturer is coming at him with a red hot knife. You dont need to know exactly what the knife is going to be used for just that when it does get used itll make you wish you were dead.:D

QUOTE]What I mean is someone isn't gonna sit around while you shoot capsaicin into their eye. The struggling and thrashing would probably cause their cornea to tear and/or deep puncture into the optical nerve or braincase.[/QUOTE]

I would assume they would be restrained in a bolted down chair, head straped down, but I see your point.

Learning is like traveling.

If your destination is on the other side of the planet, do you learn more about the world by being instantly transported from where you are at to your destination, or by having traveled by foot across the globe?

With learning, the journey IS the destination

Point taken.

Now, as regards the spoon, you don't have to use it (most likely) to pull out the eye, as who would not tell you what you want as you begin pushing the spoon into their eye-socket?

Whereas, with a needle, that's a more abstract threat...not as visceral as a spoon, as everyone knows what a spoon is used for, having used spoons for SCOOPING.

Just think of in Rambo II where the torturer is coming at him with a red hot knife. You dont need to know exactly what the knife is going to be used for just that when it does get used itll make you wish you were dead.

I agree that many people would break under the threat of deocculation (is that a word?) but some people need more of a breaking process, continual pain over an extended period, and traditional torture leaves too many marks.

;)

OH my God, they've spooned you!

The proper term for removal of an eye is 'Enucleation'.

http://www.mammaleye.com/mammaleye-book/enucleation.htm