One can never tell when a situation like Iraq may visit America with its present wild government bent on bankruptcy and pissing off all other nations.

Iraqis are fighting an invading army that invaded them just for the hell of it and to see what they could pillage. All the reasons for them being there have been proven false, yet they stay. So the citizens are beginning to kill them to make the rest leave.

YOU may have to do the same one-day. Therefore know how to make an effective urban fighting weapon.

You want a bolt fed 22-cal rifle and about 5000 rounds of solid tip ammo. For very quiet use you need standard velocity, but for normal silent use any high speed type will work BECAUSE THE RIFLE USES PROPELLANT BURN LIMIT TECHNOLOGY to keep even high speed ammo from exceeding mach 1.

The rifle should be bolt fed to get rid of the rather loud noise of the action working on self-loading rifles. However, an auto still makes a very quiet weapon. Let someone clack the action to slip in another round while you listen from 50 yards. If you could nail the shooter from what you hear, then be wary of that rifle.

To convert it, cut the barrel off 2.25 inches from the bolt face with the bolt closed. This kills the powder acceleration before the bullet reaches mach 1. IF you use a hacksaw, then file the end flat, and de-burr the bore end so no stickers are going to scratch the bullet as it leaves.

Use 1.5-inch ID brass under sink drainpipe at least 12 inches long, for the muffler. Support it by a washer bored to fit the barrel OD and to fit the ID of the pipe. Put one washer on the bbl as close to the breech end as possible and solder it there. Put one on the very end of the barrel. Solder it there. Leave good fillets of solder.

Sand clean the inside of the brass pipe where the washers are going to rest, and wet them with acid solder flux. Slip the pipe over the washers allowing the pipe to slip past the breech washer about a sixteenth inch to give a good solder fillet.

Heat the pipe outside with a torch, till it flows the solder of the rear most washer. Hold it so the washer is horizontal and add enough solder to leave a good fillet to the outer pipe.

Now using a washer that fits the ID of the brass pipe with a 3/8 hole in the center, put it at the 6 inch point (center) if he pipe and solder it there as above.

Now using a similar washer solder it 2 inches from the open end.


Now put crazy glue around the rim of the open end of the pipe, and press it against a clean piece of inner tube rubber till it sets up. Then take scissors and cut the inner tube flush with the OD of the brass pipe.

Next fire a round through the gun with the rubber against a flat board to mark the center of it. Then take a hot nail or soldering iron and burn out a circle around that hole to a diameter of about 5/16-inch.

Next, choose a bicycle inner tube that will slip over the OD of the brass pipe with slight stretching. Put a piece over the entire brass pipe, with about sixteenth inch overlapping the front rubber washer. Crazy glue the front of the outer tube to the edge of the end rubber washer.


Now test fire the gun to see if the noise level is suitable for your taste. Adjust your tactics according to the noise. This is a very quiet design.

Put a scope on it, at the receiver groves if any, for best accuracy, but the scope mount MUST BE LOCATED OVER THE BRASS PIPE exactly over the two rear steel washers so there is NO movement due to temp etc between the bbl and the scope. You will have to cut through the rubber sleeve to solder it in place. OR you can do that before you add the rubber as you wish.

Set the scope so it’s dead on at about 65 yards, and the gun will be slightly high at 50 yds, about on at 15 yds, and a tad low at 75. Don’t use this gun at more than 100 yds, for it may hit the target and bounce off the head really pissing off the target. Often the bounce causes unconsciousness, but not with really hard headed people, (at 100 yds). At 50 yds to 75 it usually breaks through with enough residual speed to circle the inside of the slick brain cavity several times, causing lethal damage.

You can mount a visible laser under the scope, attached to the front scope lens outer metal. Set it to hit at about 25 yards dead on. It’s for panic defense shooting up close, when you and the target are moving. You won’t use it much. Not much point using an IR laser for the enemy will have Night Vision and can see both with that.

Now shoot that gun a lot until it becomes a part of you. Easy to do as it makes no noise in urban places SO LONG AS YOU SHOT INTO A SAND BAG OR OTHER SOFT TARGET. Shooting wood will make a sound like hitting the wood with a hammer real hard. IT IS LOUD.

You can do all the things to make the weapon small, like bull pup it, etc. for all that does not affect its silence or accuracy.

If the Iraqis had this type of weapon you would see a ten-fold casualty rate over there. There is almost no way to tell from where the bullet came, except by trying to reconstruct how the target was standing and judging from the bullet wound. If no exit hole that is of no use. With one it is not accurate because bullets change direction upon impact.

YOU MUST let a friend fire the rifle from about 50 yds at a target at 75 yds, and so the bullet passes with 3 ft of you so you can judge what the target hears if you miss. Adjust your tactics according to what you learn. A bullet below mach 1 makes considerable air noise up close. People can figure out what it is but animals typically think it’s an insect and ignore it.

This technology is illegal to construct while our cowboy government is chasing US hired terrorists, but if they fall flat, you may have to make such a weapon out of desperation, as your only defense against all sorts of armed people who will be roaming around and pillaging or conquering. Such weapons are legal in many countries, and even mandatory in some same as are mufflers on vehicles. They are not legal in free America because the government is playing so many scams that it fears someone would start shooting at them if such weapons existed. Not so, anymore than someone shooting at them with noisy weapons, but government types are not expected to be logical nor intelligent.

Try different brands of ammo. One or two will usually shoot much more accurately in such a rifle. You want to strive for putting them all inside a 1-inch circle at 50 yds, under all shooting conditions. You want the 1st bullet to do the job, then you move, or lay low for a while. A bolt action disciplines you to make the first be the only one needed. You never engage superior firepower up close like this and pick targets to be one or two persons, away from the crowds. Remember modern “soldiers” with an ammo wagon following them tend to hose down all directions when excited.

Remember the statistics. Your body represents an area of about 8 sq ft. At 50 yards and possible shooter between 0 and 30 ft above ground, the area of the circle fence 30 ft high with diameter of 100 yards is about 30,000 sq ft. With one wild shot into that possible enemy location, your probability of being hit is 8/30,000, or rounded off 1 in 3500. That is a very low chance. Even if they cut loose with a spray gun and burn 100 rounds, that is still only one in 35 chance which is getting of concern, except the shooter usually guesses at the enemy location and pours them all in that general direction. His guess is wrong almost all the time against this weapon.

What the above means is your chance of getting shot is low, so don’t panic. Take what cover you can, without attracting attention, and your safety is better than driving a car downtown.

The difference between a skilled shooter and a soon to be dead novice is fear of things that really are trivial dangers. IF you have to, to shut up a panicked companion to the downed target nail him but don’t be in a hurry, take your time, ignore the incoming wild shots, and nail him first shot.

For fully armored enemy soldiers, you must hit throat area, uncovered fact, armpits, groin area; ass is nice, etc. Once down more unarmored areas will be exposed and you can often make a pincushion of the target.

The weapon can be made out of PVC piping as well and you can do it all with washers and epoxy or bondo, same as with the brass pipe. With epoxy mount the scope on the receiver and NOT on the PVC. At the rate of fire you will be using heat is not a problem.

I think we already have, many topics just like this. And if you cut off the barrel off like that, not only have you just decreased your range by a very large amount, you made it so inaccurate that you couldn't hit someone standing a foot infront of you.(trust me I know) I don't know if I should lock this or not. So I'll leave it open for now.

A-BOMB is right, you will not hit jack schitt with it unless he stands very close to you :p .
Also who is going to be able to land an army in the usa ? here there are a few countrys that may be a risk but other than civil war could anyone get close to you ?.
ps I would be buggered if I would let anyone no matter how good a shot they are fire a shot within a few feet of me ;) .

I would be buggered if I would let anyone no matter how good a shot they are fire a shot within a few feet of me

Absolutely the scariest thing I've ever done in my life was be a target for someone firing blanks from an MP5 at about 15m. Fuck that was frightening, hoping like hell a live round hadn't got mixed in with the blanks (it had happened once before, luckily discovered before any nasty accidents ocurred). Never again ...

Rjche does make a valid point about the use of a .22 calibre rifle as an urban sniping weapon, the russians use one: http://club.guns.ru/eng/sv99.html
As do the israelis: http://www.isayeret.com/weapons/sws/ruger/ruger.htm

A-Bomb, while he suggests cutting the barrel off at a rather short length, you could always just leave the barrel longer and use subsonic ammunition. What Rjche suggests is how to convert a very popular type of rifle (at least in the US) that is often seen as a kids gun to something that has the potential to be a useful weapon. Plus, rimfire ammunition is so cheap that you could stockpile a large amount without appearing too suspicious.

The .22 isn't much of a snipers weapon. Trying to kill someone at 50 yards with a headshot is asking a bit much of this round, especially if you reduce it to sub-sonic speeds to begin with.

Rather, use it as a terror weapon. Shooting an enemy soldier in the eye, throat, or nuts with it would leave him screaming in agony, and hopefully blind/maimed/impotent. :)

A soldier who is head shot and drops dead without making a sound is a dead man who is buried and forgotten. But the screams of a blinded man, the sight of blood pouring out the ruined remains of his eye and through his fingers...THAT will remain a vivid memory in the others minds. :)

And so would blasting off a mans 'nads in front of his mates.

This is why the ragheads who are resisting our occupation are fuck ups. Killing americans won't accomplish anything without terror. Blowing up a dozen soldiers with a car bomb hardly registers.

But, if those same dozen had been snatched off the streets in their ones and twos...and returned alive...but castrated...THAT would strike fear in the hearts of the rest. Plenty of men aren't afraid of dying, but I can't think of ANY that would want to live without their sacks! :D

A rifle using .45 cal or .44 would be a much wiser choice, the DeLisle Carbine is a wonderful weapon. .22LR has been shown to skip off the skull and not even penetrate, .45 will most likely kill and at the very least, seriously wound. A suppressed AR-15 would give you the choice of fast follow up shots and the advantage of having more firepower. A suppressed AR with a 100 rd drum would at least be a contender on the modern battlefield. An even better choise is a suppressed M1A. Silent action? in an urban enviroment firepower is your ally, as you may have to deal with a lot of people in a short amount of time. A bolt action is a good choice in the field where range is not important and your enemy has a long walk under fire to get to you.

NBK, in the hands of a shooter who has had several hours practice, a headshot at 50 yards shouldn't be much of a problem with a .22LR. Rabbits can be hit in the head at 100 yards with a low powered scope and a rabbit's head is a lot smaller than a persons. Even with subsonic ammo, .22LR won't drop by more than 5 or 6 inches at 100 Yards, High velocity ammo will only drop by 2.5 - 3 inches.

A hit in the eye with it would kill instantly because the bullet would easily have enough energy to penetrate into the brain because there is no bone to stop it. IIRC .22LR can penetrate 15" of ballistic gelatine at close ranges.

I do agree that .45 would be a much better choice though, as it is already subsonic (no need for special ammo to acheive this), and has a much heavier bullet meaning more projectile energy.

A nasty ammunition would be hollow points with the cavity full of horse manure.

No doubt .22LR can be leathal even at extended ranges, but reliably?

A headshot at 50yds should be no problem, as said, even at 100yds with a target the size of a human head still shouldn't be too hard. Relying on an eye shot is a bit much, do able, but not reliably IMO, especially under the stress of "battle".

I suppose that leathality is going to depend on what profile your target is showing you. If he's facing you then that really only leaves from the eyes up. he forhead might be to resistant at longer range. Above the forhead and it'll probablt skip over as suggested.

Side would be better, just going anywhere at or above the ear. From the rear would be better as anywhere up from the base of the skull is going to be faily leathal and the bone isn't too weak.

I agree with others saying that a .45 would be better, but if a .22LR is what you've got, then you want to be able to use it as effectively as possible, and you're probably more likely to have one kickign about than a .45.

.22lr has always been a Black Ops pistol caliber, a silenced pistol would be more effective in an urban enviroment than a .22 rifle. It would be a lot more concealable and semi-auto, I prefer semi's and wouldn't want to use a bolt action unless I had a lot of distance between me and my target. I just killed a rabid skunk about 15 minutes ago, I shot it about 6 times with my M-4, the M193 FMJ's just went right through it. Also I don't have a bipod to properly sight in the EO-tech I bought for it, so I couldn't get a proper head shot and my shots went high into the body. Our ranch stinks to high heaven right now. That skunk kept charging and even with a back bone shot, still crawled towards me until I took it's front leg off. Luckily our dogs didn't get sprayed or biten, that is the second one today, I think we have a colony that is infected or something.

Back to the topic, now it should have been better to have my rifle sighted in and been using hollow points but, the semi helped me make some rapid follow-up shots that weren't stoping a crazed target. A .223 should be able to kill a person but using FMJ's it couldn't kill a shunk until I hit it behind the head in the neck. I guess always use more than enough, than just enough. Use hollow points and always make sure your rifle is dead on.

22LR has got more power then most people seem to think and can be very accurate even at longer ranges.

Inspired from this thread I took one of my 22s (Brno 452 warmint) for a trip to the woods tonight.
I took one of my trinade targets and made a new head for it and put it on a stand 100m from my shooting position. I was out of my regular ammo (CCI blazer) so I had to bring some CCI standard velocity ammo instead which wasn't zeroed in.

Anyway I began shooting at the target using a homemade bipod (very good one) and a Bushnell trophy 3-9x40 scope. Because of the relatively low magnification it wasn't very easy to keep the sight where it should be but I had no problems putting 10 rounds within 50-60mm(I'll meassure it tomorrow) even though I had to put the crosshair about 40mm to the right and about 100-150mm high. Meaning I had no point at the target at which I could simply put the crosshair and fire making it very hard to maintain a steady zero. The accuracy of the standard velocity isn't really great which might have contributed to the size of the 10 shot group.

After that had been tested I though that I'd smack it with a couple of Remington yellow jacket hyper velocity round, and allthough I have been using them as my standard hunting ammo for allmost two years now I was amazed by the difference in power and trajecory. This ammo wasn't zeroed either and I had to aim about 50mm high and 30 right. But putting a couple of these into the head of the target prooved to be far from hard. And even at that range a yellow will stir your brains up quite a bit, I have tried a butload of different ammunition for my 22s and I have yet not seen any ammo that doesn as much damage as the yellow does, shure the stinger has a bit more bite but still doesn't expand/fragment as much as the stingers lighter bullet. About a year ago I tried sevaral bullets by shooting them into a pipe which I had stuffed with meat and fat. The recovered bullets where examined and notes made. The Yellow jacket leaves most fragment of all bullets and has anly a small plate of the bottom left intact after it has passed a target, the stinger allso leaves a lot of frags but not as many because of the lack of things to leave, the pieace of the bottom that remaines "intact" in one pieace is larger and it has also expanded unlike the yellows bottom which lookes like a hockey puck.

The best choise is the yellow after all because of it's good ability to both penetrate and slice it's target. It is also the beast choise when it comes to accuracy, the yellow shoots well in most gunt whileas the stinger often doesn't because of it's odd construction and higher speed.

Now to the part called noise. I always use ear protection when shooting, even when hunting. I recently bought a couple of peltors newest electronic ear protectors, peltor protac. With these protectors you hear everything as normal only that when you shoot the protectors shut the noise off at a certain level. So after shooting with them on for a while I remambered that I had brought my shity silencer I made som etime ago but never got to reallt work. I put it on and shot a few shots and though that it sounded like any other time shooting the rifle, but I figuered that I would try a shot without protection with the silencer on and so I did. I was stunned by how silence the rifle now was, it doesn't make more noice than my .22 webley tracker air rifle.

The other times I had tried ut using my regular ammo it had been more quiet than normal but not very much. I now realiced that it was the new standard ammo which probably is subsonic or at least close to subsonic that had been the thing that made things so quiet. I have reas many times that subsonic ammo was needed in order to make the silencer fully functional but I never thought it would make such a big difference as it did.

People in this thread has made it clear that they not quite fully understand the power of the 22LR. I shot 10 shots against some wooden boards 150m away, I had to point the gun a bit above it to hit it of cource but that doesn't matter right now. What matters is what the bullets did when they hit the 15mm hardwood board. The bullets easily penetrated the board after some of the bullets tipped over and hit the other 15mm hardwood board 1.5m behind the first one fully penetration it allthough the bullets hit it after rotating 90*. Thing is someones head isn't as restistant to these bullets as 30mm of hardwood is. Point then is that there are no problems killing someone at a range of 150m if hit in the head. I also belive the the bullet would have to hit the head at a place which has a very flat courve in order not to penetrate the skull. Thus if hit 2/3 up on the forehead you are not likely to survive and if you would survive you would at least be severly wounded.

As soon as I get my hand on some roedeer heads I can perform som e tests shootin them from different ranges and angels with a whitness plate behind them to confirm shoot throughs.

Before I wen't home a shot 4 rounds of the new ammo with the silencer and then as a final a yellow unsupressed. Fuck what a difference, I could hear the sound from the yellow rolling out the countryside for more than 2 seconds.


I've got some pics I'll get you of the test tomorrow because now I'm very tired and I'm now going to bead. Good night folks! And please excuse my misspellings, I'm just not up to the task of reading through this post.:o

Anthony, I wasn't suggesting that an eye shot be attempted, I was just pointing out that NBK's idea of shooting in the eye to blind would be lethal instead of just blinding the target.

I agree with DBSP about .22LR often being underestimated. I once saw a site with information about the 5 main rimfire calibres (.22 Short, .22 Long, .22LR, .22 WMR, and .17 HMR) and according to their information, .22LR can still retain enough energy to kill at ranges as far as a mile (it would be far too inaccurate and would drop far too much to be useful, but the appropriate kinetic energy is still there), although I imagine that the rifle would have to be aimed very high to get those kind of ranges.

I personally know of 2 people who hunt dear with .22 LR's. They either shoot the dear in the eye, in the ear, or in the back of the head and according to them the deer almost always instantly drop once they get hit. Even with open sites hitting someone in the head at 50 yards can be done without too much trouble. I can anyway, and im sure anyone else whose had a couple hours of practice could do the same. Also my .22 has a 50 rd clip so I can pop off quite a few well aimed shots in a short amount of time.

I don't know if it would be of any interest to anyone here, But A friend and I did some testing of different .22LR hollow point bullets by shooting a block of clay. Check the site in my sig if you care to see.

Unless your bullets reach velocities above 1500 fps, I wouldnt bother with HPs.

The other day, I picked up some of Federals .22LR 40 grain solid bullets. They are made from pure lead, and reach well over 1200 fps in my rifle. Knowing that lead is soft, I decided to do a test to see how much I could expect them to expand after hitting a skull. I set up a 1/2 inch thick peice of plywood (representing the skull), and a milk jug filled with red colored water (to represent brain matter). Behind that was a large foam target that would catch the bullets after going through the other obsticles. I set up my rifle 50 yards away, and fired 5 times into the wood.

After digging the bullets out of the foam target, I discovered the bullets nearly flattened like a pancake, well over 3/8 inch diameter.

The good thing is that the bullet doesnt expand until after hitting the skull. The increased frontal area keeps the bullet from over penitrating, and at the same time it makes much more tissue damage. You can also expect the bullet to bounce around inside the head, making the round much more deadly. Not to mention bone fragments from the skull will also contribute to the damage.

NickSG, It would be best to keep the bullets below Mach 1 for reduced noise. Match grade .22LR is loaded to stay below the speed of sound so that maximum accuracy can be acheived (the sonic crack can throw off accuracy very slightly, enough to matter in important competitions). I would say that the best .22LR ammunition to use would be Match Grade 40 grain Solid Point.

IMHO, I dont think there is too much of a difference between a sub and supersonic bullet, especially when comparing .22LR.

Even if the accuracy of the bullet is effected, a tumbling bullet would cuase much more damage than a straight flying bullet, wouldnt it?

Tumbling bullets are useful in more powerful rounds, but a tumbling .22LR would only further decrease the penetration. With .22LR self-defense or offensive weapons the idea is to hopefully penetrate the body enough to hit a vital organ. This is why .22LR hollowpoints are discouraged for use against people.

From "The Gun Digest book of Combat Handgunnery":

"The cartridges I consider too weak to justify the use of hollowpoint or expanding ammunition are: the .22 short, the .22 long rifle, the .22 winmag rf in extremely short barrels, .25ACP, .32ACP and .32S&W long"

"The best analogy I can draw is that shooting a human with one of these weak cartridges is similar to shooting elephants with a .30/06. It can be done, but there is only one reasonably effective way to do it. That is to use a maximum-penetration, non-expanding bullet and deliver it accurately to the elephant's brain"

Similarly if these weak handgun cartridges are used against a determined human assailant, there is only one reasonably effective way to do so. That is to use a maximum-penetration, non-expanding bullet, firing it accurately into the person's brain. If the bullet penetrates the skull, an almost certain stop will be achieved. If the bullet fails to penetrate the skull - which can happen, particularly with a glancing shot - there is still a high probability the assailant will be incapacitated. However ..... only skull penetration in the brain area is relatively certain to do so"

Hopefully this will add some info to this discussion, if anyone wants I can type a bit more out of here for you.

Like I said, shoot for the eyes.

If you get a good angle, it'll kill them. If it's a quartering shot, then it'll blind them in at least one eye. If you miss the occular orbit, it'll still hit them in the face, with the resulting disfiguration/blood/screaming/etc. :)

Since you're aiming for the weakest point anyways, I'd suggest using the Trition Quik-Shok bullets. It's a bullet that's split lengthwise into three sections, then swaged back into a solid bullet. On impact, it splits apart into three pieces again, which would make for a very bloody facial wound, or very scrambled brain. :D

I've thought the idea of a suppressed .22 gatling gun very interesting. .22 is pretty weak, but if you're spitting out 6,000RPM worth of .22, and suppressed to boot, than that changes things a bit. If a .22 can be equated with a bee sting, than a .22 gatling would be equivalant to being stung by a swarm of killer bees. :)

Just thought I'd put down a few figures.

From "Automatics - Fast Firepower, Tactial Superiority" by Duncan Long

.22LR HV 32 grain bullet fired from a 2" barrel

Speed
Muzzle - 1146 fps
50 Yds - 971 fps
100 Yds - 827 fps

Energy
Muzzle - 93fpe
50 Yds - 67fpe
100 Yds - 49fpe

Here's a link (http://www.tritonammo.com/products/QuikShok.shtml) to the Triton website although they don't seem to offer any products in .22 LR, they do look effective in larger calibres though.

The .223 rounds used in the M-16 tumble dont they? Anyways its pretty accurate and nice to shoot. The first time I picked one up it was like a toy compared to hunting rifles iv used, recoil isnt much more than a 1100fps BB gun

I always thought that those bullets tumble on impact rather than in flight? This is how I understand it - the bullet has its center of gravity at the base of the bullet. It's stable in flight because it's being spun, but as soon as it hits flesh etc the bullet moves so that it is flying base forwards, where the COG is. Therefore it flips 180 degrees, creating a larger wound channel, with the bullet splitting into two or more pieces, usually at the cannellure (sp??). That's how I userstand it, a bullet tumbling through the air just can't be accurate over larger distances.

I'm pretty sure that .223" isn't supposed to tumble in flight. It is apparently very sensitive in flight though, so that even striking a blade of grass can cause it to tumble.

One of the reasons to why the 5,56 mm bullets tilts so easily is that the bullet is so light and short. When I visited a military shooting area on my vacation the roadsigns there was full of bullet holes. Both 5,56 mm and 7,62 mm, the number of hits by tumbling bullets was quite high for the 5,56 mm. The number of 7,62s that had tilted was very low.

The reason for this is that the heavier 7,62mm bullet is more stable because it has it's COG closer to the tip and can thereby endure physical abuse in flight a bit better than the 5,56.

I know of a guy at a swedish hunting forum that tried using the militay AK4 ammo (7,62x51) in his bolt action, the result was that the bullet hit the target at a 90* angle at 80m. The reason for this is the different twist of the barrel, the bullet wasn't given enaugh stability. The bullets ability to stay straight in fligt is affected by which twist the barrel in the gun has. The weight of the bullet also matters. For instance most 222rem barrels are made to handle ~50gr bullets, if loaded with lets say a 60gr bullet instead the average group might widen from perhaps 20mm@100m with the 50gr bullet to 40-50mm@100m with the 60gr bullet.

Logically the 22LR with it't light short bullet can't take much abuse while in flight. I'm not shure but I wouldn't be supprised if the 22LR would be able to endure more abuse than a 5,56 NATO to some extent in certain situations because of the extreme velocities of the 5,56.

It just depends on what kind of .223 you use. FMJs are designed to to tumble after hitting flesh, but will clip though wood and not tumble.

After hittin flesh, the FMJ bullet tumbles, and when the bullet turns vertically while going forward, the incredible drag forces on it cuase it to explode into fragments. But, if the bullet is travelling less than 2600 FPS, it is unlikely the bullet will fragment, even though it still tumbles.

On the other hand, soft tips and hollow tips are designed to expand, not tumble. I dont remember ever seeing either one tumble after hitting flesh.

There are several other rifle rounds that are designed to tumble. 7.62x39, I think, being one of them.

You can't say that a FMJ is made to tumble when it hits flesh and not when it hits a wooden plank for instance. If you shot a FMJ through a block of balistic gelatine you would only get a clear straight channel through the gelatine. But if you would place something like a bone or a brach in front of the gelatine and fire a bullet through it it is very likely that the bullet would tumble inside the gelatine.

If the bullet hits something like a rib on the way into the chest of an animal or person the bullet might tumble because it's path has been disturbed, however if it doesn't hit anything hard on the way in it will simply pass straight through without as much as tilting a single degree.

The design of the bullet prevent that from happening. The pointy edge of the bullet keepes it straight by distributing the pressure on the bullet even on alla sides of the bullet tip. Would the bullet not have the same angle at all the sides on the front of the bullet it would make it allmost impossible to stabilize in flight alltough it would most certainly tumble upon impact.

It is possible that the military has made a compromise between accuracy and damage(I seriously doubt it though). They might have designed the barrels so that it would just meraly stabilize the bullet making it possible to hit the target and then when it impacts tumble to maximize the damage. I would be suprised of this turned out to be true though because the main objective is to hit the target, not only one but repetedly shot after shot. The bullet has no affect on the target if it doesn't hit it!! In other words it's better to have a bullet that hits the target and makes less damage than a bullet that may hit the target making more damage.

And seriously how many people would still be standing shooting at you after you have shot him in the torso with a FMJ? Its more likely that the person hit will be crowling around on the ground screaming from the pain letting you have a second chance at killing/ hitting him again than him still standing shoooting at you.

You are correct about SPs and HPs not tumbling though, I have pulled hundreds of bullets out of animals and I can't remamber noticing a bullet that has tumbeled through the body even after hitting some hard bones.

I think that I have pulled about 4-5 ~5,56mm out of the roedeers so far this season. Even though some of them has been severly damages I can't remember any of them showing any tendensies to have tumlbed noticably. It has happened that the bullets have been found in positions not straight with the bullet path This does however depend on the fact that when the bullets are found they are found just beneath the skin on the exit side of the animal meaning the bullets have often sort of hit the skin with insuficient force the penetrate the skin and have then been thrown back into the wound channel by the elastic skin then moving them out of axis.

Most FMJs do not tumble until they hit a rib, or something similar, but a .223 (5.56) FMJ will naturally tumble. Im still unsure exactly why they tumble, but there are a few theories posted above. For a reason unknown to me, the military outlawed (the last time I heard) expanding bullets of any caliber, so becuase of this they use mostly FMJ, becuase like you said, an AP round will clip right through you, leaving a small .22 caliber hole, and you will just lay there and suffer.

.223 AP (armor peirceing) rounds do not tumble, even when they hit flesh, and it is unlikely they will tumble even if the hit a rib, the spinal cord, or any other bone. This might have to do with a different center of gravity.

A few years back, I used to hunt medium sized deer with .223 FMJ, but since then I have been using the .308x51 (it is now illegal in most states to hunt with a .223). I cant remember ever seeing a whole bullet, but instead finding 5-15 small fragments.

Check out this site below. It shows the ballistics for about a dozen different bullets, including the .223. It gives an idea of what happens when these bullets hit flesh.

http://www.steyrscout.org/terminal.htm

I think the UN or some such outlawed the expanind/hollow points.

I haven't got time anaugh to thoroughly study that page right now but I will as soon as I get the chance to.

The only reason to why the bullet tumbles and fragments like the bullet on that page doeas is if the jacket is very thin, otherwise a regular FMJ should pass straight through without tumbling and definately without fragmenting.

I'll try to answer all the flak in one shot since I don't get here often.

1. A-Bomb, you are dead wrong. The last inch of barrel controls where the bullet will go. The standard two barrel derringer pistol, has about 2 inches from bolt face to barrel end. Clamp that pistol in a large vise tightly and it will put the bullets in a half inch circle at 25 yards with over the counter ammo.

However the 2.25 inches gives about 850 Fps which is still quite lethal due to the small diameter. It is also well down on the rising wind noise of a projectile getting close to mach one. If you can tolerate added noise, cut at 3.5 inches and get close to 1000 FPS and about ten db more noise.

As for locking the discussion, why not sit back and learn something from people who know something about things. Have you EVER built a silent 22? IF not lay off the heavy hand.

2.Irish is in the same intellectual category as A bomb, as to knowledge of barrel lengths and such.

3. Tutara may be fearful of having a shot fired near him because of his general ignorance of weapons. At the 50 yard range, a rifle will put all rounds in a 2 inch circle if its any good. If the bullet passes about 3 ft from you you are in less danger than if you drive a car downtown. If fearful, stand behind a barrier, you will still hear the noise and learn what it sounds like. Its not something you can imagine, and many people can be shot at and not realize it if there is no muzzle blast to alert them.

4. NBK2000, the 860 FPS bullet is down to about 810 fps at 50 yds, and will punch all but the hardest skulls and have enough residual energy to spin around a dozen or so times inside the slick skull spherical surface. Ask the mafia how they work.

If you put a 4 power scope on the rifle only the most incompetent shooter could fail to hit a under chin shot of a fully armored thug. That frontally causes lethal damage to the spinal cord attachment to the brain.

Of course the suggested targets are excellent. You may want to injure rather than kill, for injury takes out about 4 persons of the opposition, in caring for the injured one.

5. Stickfigure raises a suggestion of using larger calibers. The noise a bullet makes at a given subsonic velocity is directly related to its frontal area. If you can live with the noise you can use closer to mach 1 velocities. As for 22 skipping off skulls that is true so you are supposed to shoot so the impact is close to 90 degrees. Easy to do. If not choose one of NB 2000's suggested target areas.

A rifle that exceeds mach one muzzle velocity CAN NOT BE SILENCED period. It is not much better than the military rule to never fire but one shot per location or they will nail you. There are web sources as to how well one can locate a muzzle blast reduced high powered rifle.

6. XYZ underestimates the drop of subsonic projectiles. For example, a 950 muzzle velocity 22 LR, drops from bore-sight by 21 inches at 100 yards. One can, by zeroing the rifle around 65 yards, keep the up and down relative to a scope line of sight thats 1.5 inches above bore, within about 6 inches or so. Use any freeware ballistics program (search Google for freeware ballistics programs), to get the hang of it.

The rest of the comments were basically off thread, and need no further comment.

The information posted is not well known. There is a lot of crap being posted by persons not very familiar with the subject on many forums. The posted data will let a novice construct a weapon that is very usable and do it first time off. That is what is needed because the world is so full of novices, some of whom think they are experts apparently.

rjche,The drop info I posted was for standard .22LR, not subsonics, oops.
I would definitely want a barrel longer than 3.5", note how the topic is labelled "Sniper Rifle", not "Derringer". A 3.5" barrel is going to be unneccessarily inaccurate at 100 yards. What is the point of a short barrel if you need a stock to be attached anyway? If you are going for compactness and concealability just have a removeable barrel that is the same length as the stock. You may say that this cannot be assembled in a hurry but then you could carry a short barreled version as well for those close encounter situations.

Also, I would like to add that the amount of noise made by the bullet in flight really does not have much to do with the overall noise of the weapon :rolleyes:, don't you think that the noise might just possibly be due to the large amount of highly pressurized gas that suddenly erupts from the barrel? The only bullets that make a noticeable amount of noise in flight are some hollowpoints that "scream" during flight due to the air whistling across the cavity in the front.

Silencing weapons that are over Mach 1 does make some difference, it eliminates the noise made by the escaping gases but the sonic crack is still there. This means they are quieter, but not as quiet as they really need to be.

About the tumbling:
5.56mm does not tumble during flight, there is enough spin on it to stabilize it in air, once it hits something denser however, the spin is no longer enough to stabilize it in the denser material and it tumbles.

How likely it is for bullets to tumble/shatter on impact and how much this occurs can vary a lot from make to make. If you look at diagrams of the wound channels for 5.56mm and 7.62mm, some countries military bullets behave very differently to others. For example, US 7.62mm usually tumbles round 180° and continues intact but travelling backwards, but another countries 7.62mm (can't remember whether it was Germany or Sweden) almost always shatters on impact even at low velocities (it still shattered at ranges of 600m+ IIRC).

"What is the point of a short barrel if you need a stock to be attached anyway?"

The barrel is short, but the effective length of the weapon will still be rifle-like due to the suppressor. Obviously the stock is for precise handling, although you could cut it down to just a pistol grip if you had a good rest.

Anyway, the barrel is that short to keep the bullet speed down. What could be done is to simply port (vent) the barrel at the 2.25" mark from the bolt face. This means the barrel wouldn't need to be cut down as the gas behind would simply escape into the suppressor and not further accelerate the bullet. The suppressor could be mounted to the barrel giving a shrouded silencer design, which I think would be more stable/rugged.

The barrel length would be maintained for all those who believe that hitting a dinner plate at 100yds requires a minimum barrel length of 3 yards. Although it would slow the bullet due to friction.

Deburring the drill holes on the inside of the barrel would be a pain though.

I recall a study for of a .22 rifle that had its barrel progressively cut down and there was no loss of accuracy down to <2" barrel length. IMO the quality of the barrel is more important than the length. Although there might be a reasonable difference if the barrel was choked and a bit sloppy close to the breach.

Even with supersonic ammo, it is wise to use a suppressor. Even though the sonic crack is still audible, it is nearly impossible to locate where the shot came from, since as long as the bullet is going supersonic speeds 100 yards away, it will be just as loud down there as it is where the bullet was fired from.

forget all that 22lr crap, if you want a silent weapon buy a bolt action change the barrel and modify the action to shoot ssk's wisper amunition * its designed to be subsonic* and instead of making a silencer, buy one.



http://www.sskindustries.com/



Here is some military amunition/wounds information for ya'll

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html

Jager:

You miss the point of this thread. This thread is here to discuss the use of a .22 cal rifle as a sniper weapon and its effectiveness. Also we don't want to "BUY" a scilencer as it will leave a big ass paper trail for the feds to follow.

If a person could buy a silencer, than they wouldn't have to make their own suppressed weapon, since they'd be able to buy one, now wouldn't they? :rolleyes:

I also think that an occupational army wouldn't be allowing people to buy things like silencers and such, would they? I don't think so.

This thread is about a home-made weapon, as is the whole Forum actually, since the vast majority of us don't have access to manufactured weapons and explosives, hence the "Improvised" in the section title.

If we were able to buy weapons like this, then we could buy a SAW, throw a suppressor on that, and hose at full-auto. :)

Now get a clue. :p

xyz:
note how the topic is labelled "Sniper Rifle", not "Derringer".

We're not trying to talk about .5 MOA weapons here, we're talking about practical accuracy. In general terms, what's the point of having a rifle capable of .25 MOA when only 4 or 5 MOA is necessary? Also, check the section - "Improvised Weapons", in this case an improvised sniper rifle.

Anthony:

I agree that a "reflex" suppressor design, where the primary expansion chamber extends back over the barrel is a good idea, allowing for longer barrels (assuming velocity can be kept down by some other means). However drilling the holes into the barrel without them creating burrs on the inside is a simple matter. Just have your drill press set to a very high RPM, and it will create metallic powder in the barrel rather than burrs I believe. If that doesn't work, just use a reamer to ream the hole after drilling, that should remove any burrs.

Also, I believe what you are referring to when you talk about the minimum barrel length is not applicable to this situation. The experiment I believe you are describing was conducted by Gerald Cardew and son, and was regarding maximum velocity in a .22 calibre spring piston air rifle. It was found that after 6 inches there was no further increase in velocity. As far as I know, for .22LR rifles there is little benefit to velocity with barrels over 16".

IMO the quality .... is more important than the length

Really? ;)

Jager:

Notice how the topic title isn't "IF u had $1,000,000 wpt hot-shit SnIpA Gun wud u use 2 sho of ur killa SkilZ?" This isn't a pissing contest about the "best" type of weapon for sniper rifles, it's about adapting a common type of weapon to be a *functional* tool for removing an invading force. Note the use of functional. Also, we need something firing relatively common cartridges, so you don't need to dangerously rezero in the middle of an occupied city when your supa-dupa cartridges run out.

Chemical Burn:

I agree, apart from the UK, where you can buy a silencer legally. But at a couple of hundred pounds for a very good silencer, I'd just make one.

If you are using standard velocity bullets, its best to use 16 inch or shorter barrels, but I found that when using high velocity bullets such as Stingers and Velociters (sp? they are new, and made by CCI), it is actually best to use a 18-20 inch barrel for highest speed and tighter groups.

BTW, heres a pretty simple design for a .22 silencer. It looks pretty easy to make, so I might give it a try sometime.

http://www.norcom2000.com/users/dcimper/assorted/duj38k2n.html (All credit goes to Bullwinkle8357).

...apart from the UK, where you can buy a silencer legally...


Um...you mean the AIR gun silencers, correct? Considering how you can't own a firearm in the UK now (without ungodly restrictions), the ability to own a FIREARM suppressor seems highly unlikely.

Drilling holes in a barrel without burrs is usually accomplished by filling it with molten lead or aluminum, drilling the holes, then using a hydralic press to push out the metal filling the barrel. The metal acts as a support for the barrel metal, since it's the "pushing" of the drill bit that causes burring of the barrel into the interior.

Another means would be EDM (Electrical Discharge Machining) which is burr-free.

Velocity of a bullet is affected by barrel length up to the point at which the charge ceases combustion. Once the powder charge is fully burnt, anything longer is just drag. ;)

BTW, it's the west german 7.62mm that fragments after breaking at the cannulare. :)

To clarify 5.56 tumbling questions the M193 FMJ was designed to tumble once it hits. The M855 or SS109 is an AP with a steel penetrator made to defeat body armor and isn't supposed to tumble. These are the two offical rounds used by the US military besides tracers. A new 75gr round is being tested but has not been adopted yet.

As for silencers they are legal to buy in 35 states in the US, fill out a few forms, sign in blood, promise your first born, and jump through the hoop of fire in back and it's yours....

zaibatsu, even though only 4 or 5 MOA is really required, I think that better accuracy than this would be nice, especially if you are going for the eyes like NBK suggested.

NBK, I am pretty sure that firearm silencers are avilable in the UK, it is only handguns that have ungodly restrictions on them IIRC. I have seen a UK air rifle forum where they use rimfire rifle silencers on their air rifles because they are cheaper and more effective than .22 air rifle silencers. So rimfire silencers are available at least.

Also, barrels that are longer than the powder's burn length are not just drag on the bullet, even though the powder is no longer burning, there is still increased pressure inside the barrel that continues to accelerate the bullet. There is a chart on the Remington website about how much extra velocity will be given by extra barrel lengths.

NBK:
Um...you mean the AIR gun silencers, correct?
No, I mean firearm silencers, as in from around .22LR to .50BMG. For an example of this, check this website (http://www.soundmoderators.co.uk). Yes, it's rather strange that you can own any firearm silencer, and unlimited capacity magazines, even make them yourself, but you cannot own a handgun, but laws rarely do make sense.

The method I described using a drill at a high RPM is preferable to filling the barrel with a molten metal, as it has the same effect without changing the hardness of the barrel or the finish. Interestingly enough, you *can* make an EDM machine, although they are not as good/safe/accurate as commercial models obviously. I believe HSM or some similar publication did an article on it, I'm sure I've got a link to the file or article somewhere.

The cannelure represents a weakness on all bullets, as when the bullet begins to yaw, the stress is focussed on this point, although some bullets are affected by it more than others. For example, examine these two wound profiles:
M855 5.56mm NATO cartridge (http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/wound1.gif)
7.62x39 round (http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/ak47.jpg)

xyz:
Of course, better accuracy is always preferable, as even if the rifle is 4-5 MOA the shot locations will still be represented by standard deviation. However, it is not always possible, so trying to compare a weapon designed to do a job with a "make-do" weapon isn't very fair.

Most Reflex Suppressors which are are suitable for use on full-bore rifles can also be used on rim-fire rifles and on air weapons. If the suppressor is intended for use exclusively on a shot gun or air weapon, we can send it directly by mail order, although we prefer to have the weapon here to ensure correct fitting.

Oh man...now I just need to find an airgun that has the same barrel size as an M-14. ;)

But, since they'll also mail them if used for shotguns, I don't think there'd be any problem with using sub-sonic saboted slugs in a rifled barrel. Getting hit with a one ounce slug going 850fps would be more than adequate to do the job, right? :)

A suppressed Saiga-12 with sub-sonic slugs and buckshot would make for an unpleasant day for someone. :D

Do you see what the picture is on this page. http://www.soundmoderators.co.uk/sak22lr.htm
A product display full of silencers! Just wished I could get some :(

Unfortunately NBK that does not apply to the US, as removable airgun silencers are also illegal. From the page A-BOMB linked to
We regret that we can not ship firearm or air weapon silencers to USA, Canada or other countries in which they are controlled or prohibited

A-BOMB:

To misquote someone, "Where there's a member there's a way" ;)

I see several didn't bother to bone up on ballistics and stuff and came back with more wrong comments. I will try once more and then let the reader believe whomever it desires.

xyz: "rjche,The drop info I posted was for standard .22LR, not subsonics, oops.

It was still ridiculously wrong, indicating a fundamental unfamiliarity with external ballistics of firearms.
At a typical 1250 fps for standard commercial high velocity 22 rim-fire long rifle ammo, the drop at 100 yards is 13.3 inches. You probably are confusing mid range rise above line of sight of a rifle shooting the bullet upward to hit a distant target with a much dropped bullet. Drop can be calculated by plugging the flight time of the bullet into the S=.5 A T squared standard gravitational drop physics equation.

Again consult any ballistics program.

"I would definitely want a barrel longer than 3.5", note how the topic is labeled "Sniper Rifle", not "Derringer"

I mentioned derringer to demonstrate that a 2 inch bbl can shoot very accurately if it is aimed well. You were saying a 2 inch barrel is inherently inaccurate, again demonstrating an unfamiliarity with guns.


" A 3.5" barrel is going to be unnecessarily inaccurate at 100 yards."
Again a statement contrary to fact. A 3.5 inch bbl can shoot as accurately as any length. It's your job to point it accurately. If that short bbl is on a rifle stock with scope it will shoot as accurately as any length of bbl with identical bore statistics. Remember that phrase in the original post "It uses burn termination technology". Did you understand what that means.



"What is the point of a short barrel if you need a stock to be attached anyway?"

If you understood ballistics you would realize that a bullet accelerates all the time the pressure behind it exceeds bore friction. In a normal long barrel 22 rim-fire rifle they accelerate down to 16 inches length with normal ammo, then they slow down after, in longer bbls. All smokeless rifle ammo used in 22 rim-fire rifles have about the same buildup of pressure versus the first few inches of bbl. Therefore a bullet which would reach 1400 fps in a longer bbl, will be accelerated only to about 860 fps at the 2.25 inch bbl. length. IF thats the velocity you want you MUST cut the bbl off at that length OR drill large holes in the bore (1/8th inch)both sides of the barrel to cut the pressure of the burning powder, which makes it go out. It accumulates in the suppressor as a tan flake sand like material. Almost all 22 rim-fire ammo will come out of a 2.25 inch bbl at around 850 fps, so you don't have to buy special subsonic ammo but can use anything you can find. The above describes burn termination technology. It means you stop the powder burning at the velocity you want.

A scoped rifle using a very short bbl shoots with the same accuracy as the scope and rifle mounting is capable of regardless of bbl length.

Have you noticed the 9mm sub machine guns thugs carry have only a 4 inch bbl. That's all you need to get the bullet up to speed. More is a waste of space and material.

The only way you will ever appreciate how much noise a mach 2 bullet makes is to fire a well suppressed high powered rifle, OR a suppressed 22 rim-fire that does not limit the bullet to below mach 1. Both make a noise comparable to the muzzle blast, meaning the crack will wake the dead. It echos through mountain valleys same as does muzzle blast.
Also the smack of a subsonic bullet hitting anything makes a very loud pop. Have to hear it to appreciate how loud it is.

ANTHONY:

If you try porting it is very tricky. Things do not go as would seem obvious. Gas traveling close to mach in a down bore direction has considerable difficulty going out ports to the side unless they are countersunk. Say 1/8 inch drilled through the bore to give two holes at the desired distance, then those countersunk with .25 drill till only a thin segment of 1/8 hole is left. Countersink against a #1 drill inside the bore to limit the depth. This will not be the same as cutting the bbl off at that distance. Also the pressure in the suppressor will go out another hole later down, and alter the acceleration. It takes a lot of experimenting with chronograph, and disassembly of suppressor to redesign to get a particular exit velocity. Minimum needed equipment is shop equipment plus chronograph, plus a disassemblable suppressor to experiment with. Not something a makeshift weapon would involve.

Deburring is done with 1/8 in carbide ball in dremel tool via a 1/8 inch hole in the bbl.

If you leave a lot of bbl in front of the gas ports you will run into the slow down of bore friction and exit velocity will be much less than expected.

A comment on reaming to deburr would leave a very sharp edge for the bullet to pass. It would shave it as the lead is under lots of pressure and would squeeze into the hole as it passed and cut come of the tail off. Big inaccuracy would likely result if the holes were not symmetrical to save both sides equally. Best to use a ball cutter and round bore side of the hole enough that no shaving occurs.

Building a silenced weapon in a hurry with no shop facilities is not easy. Most of them end up not silencing, as intuition does not help one much. They "sort of work", but if you are going to shoot at a person with a full auto mil weapon you want to make sure you are really quiet.
If you want to be a suicide shooter, don't bother with silencers, just sneak up and nail the target, and get nailed back, by his buddies. If doing that, I recommend a full auto with 75 round drum mag. You would then be going for body count, to brag about in the spirit world.

From what I read, it's OK if it's removable, as long as it's for shotgun or airgun use.

I also know that they won't send them to the US, but how many UK mods and members do we have? ;) :D

I could send a shotgun barrel that I buy through the mail to the UK, have it fitted for a silencer by a UK member (who gets financial comp for the job), barrel gets sent back in one package, and silencer in another to a dead-drop where gofer picks it up.

Silencer goes in the ground, barrel into the closet, and I'm ready for a time of need. :)

What would be a good disguise for a silencer? I would think that disguising it as a hydralic piston would be perfect and easy to do. Put a piston down the barrel, put some gaskets in, fill with oil, lightly solder on some zerk fittings, and who could tell the difference? :p

A .22LR bullet going 900 fps will NEVER be as accurate as the same bullet going 1400 FPS. As you know, all objects fall at the same rate, and the slower a bullet is going, the more time gravity has to effect its trajectory.

After putting at least 5000 rounds through my old 10/22, I can tell you a 40 grain bullet or less will drop an absolute maximum of 5 inches (as long as it is going 1200 FPS+). I dont see how you could say anything over 10 inches when Ive shot air rifles that get less than 4 inch groups at 100 yards.

BTW, a true sniper will always use a bolt action. They seem more accurate, cheaper, and you can choose when you want the casing ejected. The sound of the casing hitting the ground can be heard much farther than you think, and has got many snipers killed.

I think you could disguise one of the smaller ones as a muffeler for a RC truck just put a 45 degree elbow in one of the ends that is painted the same color as the unit, and put on a label saying (enter japanese RC manufacture name here) offroad RC truck spark arrester/muffler. On in so even if its X-rayed/opened it going to look like a muffler that is if they don't look at it that much.

bullet drop and bullet acuracy are two very different things. in the Marines (semfer fi !!!) a .308 match is used. that round is horably slow at only 2500fps but maintains extreme accuracy at any range. so when my bullets drops 20 feet at 1500 yards but drops right behind your neck into your upper back...you wont complain about bullet drop anymore. accuracy speaks!
berret .50 BMG's only travel at 2600 but are able to hit a coffe can or mans chest cavity at well over 1700 yards.

the bullet may break the sound barrier (mach 1) and still be supressed but you will need a reflex supresor. the shockwave made from the bullet must stay inside the supresor. this makes for one long supressor though. think of a ballon. you pop it....booom. you cover one spot with duct tape and poke it with a needle there....air is slowely and quietly let out. think of supresors as the tape.

oh and btw people use semi autos in the Marine corps. berret 50's are semi auto. they cannot be supressed as well however.

User Name, Barretts can be suppressed if what you are trying to say is that they can't, Look Here (http://www.impactguns.com/store/awc_turbodyne.com).


The sonic crack would still be there but the noise made by escaping gases wouldn't be, the weapon would be a hell of a lot quieter than normal but it still wouldn't be "silent".

rjche, the figures I posted are accurate for standard .22LR, they are just the figures for .22LR fired from a rifle length barrel.

Another advantage to bolt action is that you can choose when the next round is chambered as well, an unfired round sitting in a hot chamber for a while can produce erratic velocities and therefore be less accurate (you don't know how much it will drop). With a bolt action rifle, you can choose to only chamber a new round when you are about to use it.

xyz:

I never even thought of that effect, interesting. But do you really think it matters much? I know machineguns tend to fire from an open bolt because of this, for fear of leaving a round chambered in a hot chamber and it "cooking off". It might have a large effect, I don't know anything on it so I'll be interested to find out. However, would you really be firing at so high a rate as to heat up the chamber? I doubt it if it is supposed to be an improvised sniper rifle, rather than provide suppressing fire.

Would the temp of the round really matter that much in respect to the amount and rate of gas produced by the propellant? Im pretty sure its about the same, iv fired many weapons and havent noticed any difference after heating up the chamber quite a bit.

Its not the gas production rather the burn rate thats effected. The hotter the faster resulting in higher pressures - change in velocities and point of impact.

Id never actually thought of it either in regards to a chambered round, but if you shoot a cooled round over a chronograph you will typically get lowered velocities (I have tried that), not much but its effect will be more on the position the bullet leaves the barrel (barrel whip) rather then its trajectory.

So its not a super important factor, but still a factor.

A swedish hunting magazine zeroed a 6.5x55 swedish mauser at 100m at +20*-C and then shot at the same distance again but at -20*-C the bullet then dropped about 20cm if I remember correctly. Thats more than enaugh to miss a roedeer or a pig at 100m.

I have read that in the winter you should have tha cartidges in you pocket close to the body and load the rifle just prior to shooting to minimize the bullet drop. I don't know what affect the cold barrel will have on the bullet and it's trajectoy though.

Thanks rjche, you've likely saved me quite ab it of time and frustration in the future :)

"A .22LR bullet going 900 fps will NEVER be as accurate as the same bullet going 1400 FPS. As you know, all objects fall at the same rate, and the slower a bullet is going, the more time gravity has to effect its trajectory."

Bullet drop isn't really innacuracy as it's predictable and consistant. If all else was equal and both 900fps and 1400fps weapons were zeroed the same then there should be no difference.

Paralax adjustable scopes aren't very expensive and will allow you to overcome bullet drop either with a graduated reticle or just reckoning, or you could spend a little more and have a side wheel on your scope to dial in the elevation.

Faster bullets have better stabilization, translating to better accuracy. The speed that a bullet leaves the barrel at and how quick the rifling twist is are the two factors that determine how fast a bullet will spin, if it spins too slowly or way too fast then it will be unstable.

This means that if you want a barrel that is only a few inches long to limit the speed of the bullet, you need a really fast rifling twist if you want the same sort of stability as a bullet going at 1400fps.

I think that the best solution is to use a short (but not really short, about 10 - 15") barrel with a slightly faster than normal twist and match grade ammo. Like I said before, match ammo is the most accurate .22LR and is also subsonic, hence no need to chop off the barrel to limit bullet speed.

My choice would be a bolt action with the above mentioned barrel and ammo and a 4x or 6x scope, sighted in for about 75m.

The thing about guns heating up the round in the chamber, it doesn't matter much for hunting etc. unless you are in extreme temperature conditions. It does matter for sniping however and snipercountry has an article about (on a bolt action) leaving the bolt open after ejecting a round and holding the barrel upwards at a slight angle to make a convection air current flow through the barrel, cooling the chamber more quickly.

I think it would be easier however to just wait until you are ready to fire before chambering your next round, the snipercountry method would be better if you needed to suddenly fire a shot without having to get ready.

Sniper country is a very good website. Why would you zero your combo at 75yards and use a 4x-6x scope? At those ranges I wouldn't use something that high for a human-size object, maybe 4x but probably about 2.5x. You're reducing your field of view doing that, and in a busy environment like a city that's to your detriment.

"Jager:

You miss the point of this thread. This thread is here to discuss the use of a .22 cal rifle as a sniper weapon and its effectiveness. Also we don't want to "BUY" a scilencer as it will leave a big ass paper trail for the feds to follow."




You can buy a suppressor if you live in a state that allows them, all you have to do is pay some money/fill some forms and get it from a class 3 dealer and the only way you would have a paper trail would be if you got caught, and then it really doesn't matter anyway, plus you aren't going to be using it in america.

If you want accuracy you cant go and make a silenced gun with a sawed off barrel and some pipe, like others have said in this thread.


And if you really want to kill someone silently, use a knife or a garrotte, something that everyone knows already.

Making a silenced weapon is such a pain in the ass, just make a "pipe bomb" instead and kill lots-o-peaple.

Making a silenced weapon isn't that hard. I made a silencer in about 1 hour, it's really ugly and really large and there is no attaching mekanism other than the hole in the bottom of the wooden plug that I push onto the barrel. Hell there are even some small gaps between the barrel and the silencer and it's still just as silent as my Webley tracker .22 air rifle and still shoots good enaugh to hit you in the head at 60m dispite all the hassle with the bullet drop.

Things doesn't have to be that hard.

And tell me, how would you go about killing someone with a knife witout getting killed by the guys three friends standing next to him? Seemes a bit hard doesn't it? Unless of cource you would like to become a martyr(sp?)?

zaibatsu, those magnifications would be if you were going for the eyes etc. You would only be looking through the scope to aim and fire, not to acquire targets. The 75m was just a range that I thought was a good range to sight in at (as most shots would be at 50-100m)
The best scope would be a 2-6x40 or a 2-6x50 so that you could zoom in, but your field of view was still fairly large.

There are designs for some very simple but effective .22LR silencers out there. Look on HNIW's ftp (the address can be found near the end of the thread called "Forum FTP" in Forum Matters) for books on this subject. Solid point .22LR fired at a subsonic velocity doesn't make that much noise anyway. You would still want a suppressor if possible though.

"Even with subsonic ammo, .22LR won't drop by more than 5 or 6 inches at 100 Yards, High velocity ammo will only drop by 2.5 - 3 inches."



XYZ, I believe you are still not understanding what bullet drop refers to in exterior ballistics. It refers to the distance the bullet drops from the muzzle to where it hits, expressed in inches usually. This drop can be concealed by pointing the muzzle upwards which is what all sights on a gun do. That pointing does not change the drop however.

Your statement that subsonic ammo, 22lr won't drop more than 5 or 6 inches at 100 yards displays this confusion in your thinking. As I explained before, it drops around 20 inches if at about 860 muzzle velocity, and all exterior ballistics programs as well as experiments confirm this. Here is a chart of bullet drop versus range for a "high velocity" remington 22LR round, with 1250 muzzle velocity:
To make this short, first number is range in yards, second is drop in inches:

0,0 30,-1,1 50,-3.1 70,-6.2 90,-10.6 100,-13.3 110,-16.3

130,-23.5 150,-32.2 170,-2.4 190,-54.3

Now for the same bullet on a rifle with scope center 1.5 inches above the bore center, zeroed for 100 yards here are the path of the bullet versus the scope cross hairs at various ranges. Path means where the bullet will hit relative to the cross hair location on the target at the range stated, if the scope is zeroed for 100 yds.

0,-1.5 30,1.8 50,2.8 70,2.6 90,1.2 100,0 110,-1.5 130,-5.7 150,-11.4 170,-18.7 190,-27.6

The above are for lead, 22lr 40 gr bullet with 1250 muzzle velocity, at 0 altitude, 60 deg F.

For this same bullet to drop only 6 inches in 100 yards it must have a muzzle velocity of 1900 fps. To drop only 4 inches it must have a muzzle velocity of 2300 fps.

Of course no commercial 22LR rimfire ammo is made that can do this, nor would the lead bullet tolerate that speed without soldering itself to the barrel, meaning extreme barrel leading, and terrible accuracy.

To better understand what happens to your bullets after they leave the barrel download any of the free ballistics programs. One named PCB.exe is on the net here and there and its excellent (dos which windows will run) and takes up only 90K for the entire program.

Also your second statement:
"rjche, the figures I posted are accurate for standard .22LR, they are just the figures for .22LR fired from a rifle length barrel."

ARe as shown above not accurate at all. Also you misunderstand the effect of barrel length. Length of barrel has zero effect on a given bullet leaving the barrel at a certain muzzle velocity. Long ago when only iron sights existed, barrels up to 30 inches long were used to increase the accuracy of pointing the iron sights. Double the barrel length and you double the accuracy of aiming.

Today with optical sights barrel lengths can be very short.

I have seen the Russian Tokarev pistol, with a good pistol scope on it fire 7.65x25 ammo with 90 grain steel jacket war time ammo, at 200 yards, HAND HELD by the shooter, hit a 5 gallon bucket at 200 yards, every shot.

Put it in a vise clamped well, and it shot in a 4 inch circle. Its barrel is about 4 inches long. The bullet exits at about 1450 fps.

That bullet does the same from a long barrel rifle at that range if the exit velocity is the same.

Get a ballistics program and play with it and many of your misconceptions about firearms will go away. When you post them on this thread though you tend to cause those unfamiliar with firearms to doubt what I have posted, and you do them a severe dis-service. Posting false information causes harm. It confuses those who are trying to learn. Thrice have I warned you of your errors but you will not go check your self out, but persist in adding more errors with each post.

Please quit faking it on my threads... You and some other fakers cause so much mis-information that it triples my time to get a point across, and clear up the BS.

Originally posted by DBSP

And tell me, how would you go about killing someone with a knife witout getting killed by the guys three friends standing next to him? Seemes a bit hard doesn't it? Unless of cource you would like to become a martyr(sp?)?



Well I wouldn't try and kill someone that had a couple of friends standing next to him. I don't think It would be too hard to sneak up on someone from behind at night and cut their throat, or use us a garrotte on an unarmed person.


I was under the impression that making a silencer that actually works well was hard to make, but if you made one in an hour and it works




http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Bremse/Mundbremse.html
http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Schalldaempfer.htm
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/highpow.html

(Incorrect Post Removed)

Rjche is actually right xyz. Within the table you have refered to the figure represents the height the bullet must rise above the line of sight, to hit a target centre at 100yd. It doesnt refer to bullet drop from the line of bore.

OK then, I was wrong, sorry about that rjche. I knew what bullet drop was (how much the bullet falls below the line of the bore) but I thought those tables referred to that.

Please understand that I am not trying to spread misinformation or anything though.

Perhaps the question needs to be re-thought.

The post was about creating an effectively silenced .22 rifle.

The scenerio given however, is not really something that I would use a .22 rimfire for.

the after that things spiraled as they often do.

A silenced .22 lr has it's uses, now doubt, however even in ww2 other calibre's were preferred for silenced weapons. Silenced versions of the sten are a good example, or even silenced versions of a luger po8 and similiar weapons, all used 9mm subsonic.

Personally, if you are set on 22lr for whatever reason, a weapon similiar to a rugar mk2 would be your best choice for silencing. especially with a reflex design. The draw back is that you would need to be able to place an effective shot to kill.

shooting in the ocular area is taught to swat and soldiers as a means to achieve a kill without any involuntary muscle responses. However, it's a hard target to hit, due to body mechanics, not optics. Aiming with a scope IS easy... holding the weapons stready is harder than it looks. Your muscles don't naturally contract smoothly, and when trying to sustain a contraction... they will tremble. It' takes training and correct shooting technique to minimize that for consistantly good shots. Add in the stress of combat, and now it's a hell of a task to pull off.

I advise going for center of mass.

With that option there are more factors involved as far as weapons choice. I've heard (though I have not directly witnessed) that 7.62x39 rounds are damn effective in silenced semi-auto weapons. this is due to the mechanics of semi-auto weapons cycling and the retained energy of the round even at sub-sonic speeds. A .45 pistol round is the natural choice since it is already a subsonic round (850 fps standard ball round) and is very combat effective in center of mass shots with non-expanding rounds.

However, range with one isn't all that great, even out of a 10 inch barrel.

A large part of wether to go with a rifle round or not will have to do with your anticipated ranges. will you be fighting in urban areas or in rural areas? in doors or street to street?

Also, do not discount a suppressed weapon even if it fires a supersonic round. Suppressors not only quiet the boom of the round but they also serve to mask the crack a bit. From personal experience a knights armament silencer makes a 5.56 round hard to pick out with the ear. You have a hard time figuring out where the shot came from. The rest of the concealment of a shooters position is part of snipercraft and is not a subject that I am that well versed in. I've picked up a bunch, but not everything and a lot of it is hard to explain via text.

So.. in closing.. my advice is to re-determine your needs, determine the conditions that would be required to meet those, and plan accordingly.

-DeviantSaint

Klick the link below and sign in with:

id:theforum
pass:viewingpics

http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288861785

THAT is what happens if a 22lr bullet happens to hit your head at 100m. DO NOT underestimate the power of a 22lr. If you play the video frame by frame you will se that lots of brain matter is actually sprayed out of the bullets entrance hole due to the overpressure in the brain that the bullet causes. The left eye allmost popped out as well. The bullet exited through the left jaw, judging by the hole in the paper the bullet did not have any energy left when it exited but that doesn't matter since what it hit is already ded. And the bullet exiting isn't the entire bullet but merely a small disc about 2,5x5,6mm. I know this since I've shot this particular bullet in different materials, ranging from wet paper to meat with the same result, lots of fragments and a small disc is allways the result.



If anyone misses some of the latest replies to this topic thay are no longer here, I have deleted all of the posts that had anything to do with the kewl that got banned.

I think perhaps we are getting a little carried away here.

A silenced .22 is indeed possible.
it has been done before.
there are doubts to it's combat effectiveness.

I personally would not recommend it IF other alternatives are availible.
such as 9mm, .45, .380. 9mm mak, or other rifle calibers.

Have doubts? then test the theory. The only person that really has to be convinced is the user, after all it is his risk we are talking about here.

Everything else is purely academic.

then again, this is an academic board, so I digress.

Lo again, Ok if anyone was offended (tho I doubt anyone missed the sarcasm) by my suggestion that the former newb should go out and shoot themself I apologise, his remarks rather annoyed me.

In an attempt to swing the thread back on track - Has anyone actually tried constructing a device based on rjche's description? some pics of the weapon and it capabilities would greatly improve the thread. SWIM plans on converting a old single shot as described - but SWIM tells me it wont be happening in the near future so Im hoping someone else might have some pic's, pics of the damage at different ranges - pics of groups it can shoot - pics of the weapon itself.


SWIM has used a cut down .22 so he knows a bit about how they work. If I can track SWIM down I'll try and get some more specifics - like the exact barrel lenght. The problem with the pistol SWIM had was that the barrel had been cut off too short (maybe 1-1.5 inch)and the bullets tumbled. The solution to this was to cut the end off the bullet. It still tumbled in flight but now resembled a ball more than a bullet which seemed to help accuracy marginally, from memory the bullet didnt drop as quickly either. Now that I think about it Im assuming that the lighter bullet had a higher velocity... but Ive been wrong before.

So the result was a pistol - without enough barrel and half wieght projectiles. No it wasnt very accurate - but could still easily manage a torso hit at 20 meters or so. It was also obviously underpowered - even as .22's go. The thing is even given everything that was wrong with it, it still punched holes in the things it was fired at - like sheep skulls.

SWIM also made up a 2 minute supressor for it - consisting of an empty areosol tin with the top section where the valve is removed so it fit over what was left of the barrel - this was packes with steel wool strapped on with some duct tape and a round fired to open the end up - even with such shoddy construction it was quitened down alot.

If only SWIM had read this thread alll those years back he would have had a semi decent little weapon instead of the one mentioned above.

Maybe in the US where you actually have rights to own guns all this seems a little silly - just wait till your government decides that guns are bad and your constitution wasnt that important... maybe then people will realise how frustrating it is whenever the topic of improvising your own guns comes up and the thread gets filled with comments like "why bother - just buy one" or "thats stupid go and buy this" or "it wont be accurate - buy a _____" etc etc

So - a big thanks to rjche for providing some simple to follow instructions - actually backed up with theory and knowhow.

Lastly, sometihng I think we can all agree on - A gun is a gun - stick it in someones face and its not going to matter whether its a zip gun or glock 9 its still a gun. If the need arises any gun is better than no gun.

Originally posted by rjche
[B]One can never tell when a situation like Iraq may visit America with its present wild government bent on bankruptcy and pissing off all other nations.

Iraqis are fighting an invading army that invaded them just for the hell of it and to see what they could pillage. All the reasons for them being there have been proven false, yet they stay. So the citizens are beginning to kill them to make the rest leave.

I thik you mean Sadam's militia. Please dont be an ass-hat and show your ignorance. We have found NBC equipment, paperwork, the scientists who worked on the stuff etc etc. We KNOW it is or was there. Oh and yeah, out armed forces are SOOOOooo terrible giving these people the right to choose leaders and not be sent to death camps for not liking Sadam. How many hundreds of thousands did he kill again??? We could have just as easily flattened the whole damn city but spared the hospitals and schools where Sadams forces were using civvies to shield them selves....Jee they're manly men, besides I thought allah was on their side and would ensure victory. So, when the "big fight" comes to home are you going to use women and children to shield your pansy ass too?

Christ all mighty, they are getting new roads, power plants, hospital equipment, schools and equipment...were bringing them into the damn 21st century, were they should have been if Sadam wasn't keeping the countries wealth for himself and spending insane amounts of the country's GNP on NBC weapons and research.



You want a bolt fed 22-cal rifle and about 5000 rounds of solid tip ammo. For very quiet use you need standard velocity, but for normal silent use any high speed type will work BECAUSE THE RIFLE USES PROPELLANT BURN LIMIT TECHNOLOGY to keep even high speed ammo from exceeding mach 1.

The rifle should be bolt fed to get rid of the rather loud noise of the action working on self-loading rifles. However, an auto still makes a very quiet weapon. Let someone clack the action to slip in another round while you listen from 50 yards. If you could nail the shooter from what you hear, then be wary of that rifle.

To convert it, cut the barrel off 2.25 inches from the bolt face with the bolt closed. This kills the powder acceleration before the bullet reaches mach 1. IF you use a hacksaw, then file the end flat, and de-burr the bore end so no stickers are going to scratch the bullet as it leaves.

Use 1.5-inch ID brass under sink drainpipe at least 12 inches long, for the muffler. Support it by a washer bored to fit the barrel OD and to fit the ID of the pipe. Put one washer on the bbl as close to the breech end as possible and solder it there. Put one on the very end of the barrel. Solder it there. Leave good fillets of solder.

Sand clean the inside of the brass pipe where the washers are going to rest, and wet them with acid solder flux. Slip the pipe over the washers allowing the pipe to slip past the breech washer about a sixteenth inch to give a good solder fillet.

Heat the pipe outside with a torch, till it flows the solder of the rear most washer. Hold it so the washer is horizontal and add enough solder to leave a good fillet to the outer pipe.

Now using a washer that fits the ID of the brass pipe with a 3/8 hole in the center, put it at the 6 inch point (center) if he pipe and solder it there as above.

Now using a similar washer solder it 2 inches from the open end.


Now put crazy glue around the rim of the open end of the pipe, and press it against a clean piece of inner tube rubber till it sets up. Then take scissors and cut the inner tube flush with the OD of the brass pipe.

Next fire a round through the gun with the rubber against a flat board to mark the center of it. Then take a hot nail or soldering iron and burn out a circle around that hole to a diameter of about 5/16-inch.

Next, choose a bicycle inner tube that will slip over the OD of the brass pipe with slight stretching. Put a piece over the entire brass pipe, with about sixteenth inch overlapping the front rubber washer. Crazy glue the front of the outer tube to the edge of the end rubber washer.


Now test fire the gun to see if the noise level is suitable for your taste. Adjust your tactics according to the noise. This is a very quiet design.

Do you have ANY gunsmithing experience at all???? The above is a joke right? Its a great way to destroy a rifle and wate your time.



You can mount a visible laser under the scope, attached to the front scope lens outer metal. Set it to hit at about 25 yards dead on. It’s for panic defense shooting up close, when you and the target are moving. You won’t use it much. Not much point using an IR laser for the enemy will have Night Vision and can see both with that.

You have a bolt action 22 with a laser site mounted to hit at 25 yards for "panic defense shooting" when BOTH you and the target are moving????? 1st off the laser is be damn near worthless in 90% of daylight hours unless the target is within a couple yards. This means any hits with this "rifle" and pissant round will just piss off the person IF you even hit them. Meanwhile your cycling the gun while you get cut down in a hail of 5.56mm/ 7.62/50 cal/ or 40mm rounds.


You can do all the things to make the weapon small, like bull pup it, etc. for all that does not affect its silence or accuracy.

If the Iraqis had this type of weapon you would see a ten-fold casualty rate over there. There is almost no way to tell from where the bullet came, except by trying to reconstruct how the target was standing and judging from the bullet wound. If no exit hole that is of no use. With one it is not accurate because bullets change direction upon impact.

Yeah right, after all a 22 with a 2.5" barrel at 50 yards is so much more effective than an RPG from 200yds...Plus you get the benefit of doing REAL damage!!


YOU MUST let a friend fire the rifle from about 50 yds at a target at 75 yds, and so the bullet passes with 3 ft of you so you can judge what the target hears if you miss. Adjust your tactics according to what you learn. A bullet below mach 1 makes considerable air noise up close. People can figure out what it is but animals typically think it’s an insect and ignore it.

You MUST take all gun safety and throw it out the window and allow someone to shoot a rifle to within feet of you with a piss poor weapon of questionable build! Just block the thought that shitty suppressors mounted on shittily modded guns can throw the zero WAY off. Just think you may even be able to evaluate the damage done by the round...by your OWN body! Yippeeee!

This technology is illegal to construct while our cowboy government is chasing US hired terrorists, but if they fall flat, you may have to make such a weapon out of desperation, as your only defense against all sorts of armed people who will be roaming around and pillaging or conquering. Such weapons are legal in many countries, and even mandatory in some same as are mufflers on vehicles. They are not legal in free America because the government is playing so many scams that it fears someone would start shooting at them if such weapons existed. Not so, anymore than someone shooting at them with noisy weapons, but government types are not expected to be logical nor intelligent.

Try different brands of ammo. One or two will usually shoot much more accurately in such a rifle. You want to strive for putting them all inside a 1-inch circle at 50 yds, under all shooting conditions. You want the 1st bullet to do the job, then you move, or lay low for a while. A bolt action disciplines you to make the first be the only one needed. You never engage superior firepower up close like this and pick targets to be one or two persons, away from the crowds. Remember modern “soldiers” with an ammo wagon following them tend to hose down all directions when excited. [/quote]

Your right US soldiers are a bunch of poorly trained conscripts like Sadams forces. They'll just shoot everything in sight. maybe they will even take some women and children as human shields like Sadams forces did! I think when they see the 22 rounds hitting they kevlar vests, helmets and vehicles and falling to the ground they will have a good idea of what they're dealing with and where.


Remember the statistics. Your body represents an area of about 8 sq ft. At 50 yards and possible shooter between 0 and 30 ft above ground, the area of the circle fence 30 ft high with diameter of 100 yards is about 30,000 sq ft. With one wild shot into that possible enemy location, your probability of being hit is 8/30,000, or rounded off 1 in 3500. That is a very low chance. Even if they cut loose with a spray gun and burn 100 rounds, that is still only one in 35 chance which is getting of concern, except the shooter usually guesses at the enemy location and pours them all in that general direction. His guess is wrong almost all the time against this weapon.


What the above means is your chance of getting shot is low, so don’t panic. Take what cover you can, without attracting attention, and your safety is better than driving a car downtown.

The difference between a skilled shooter and a soon to be dead novice is fear of things that really are trivial dangers. IF you have to, to shut up a panicked companion to the downed target nail him but don’t be in a hurry, take your time, ignore the incoming wild shots, and nail him first shot.

Did you not say you should be within about 50 yards though? I like the "still only 1 in 35 chance" part!! Are you saying those are NOT good odds???? Imagine if the lottery system was set up to make winning the jackpot 1 in 35... EVERYONE would play because the odds are INCREDEBLY good!


For fully armored enemy soldiers, you must hit throat area, uncovered fact, armpits, groin area; ass is nice, etc. Once down more unarmored areas will be exposed and you can often make a pincushion of the target.

Modern flak vests and helmets can stop hypervelocity 22LRs from a full length barrel at point blank range and often cover much of the throat area. Not to mention there are ballistic shields that can clip on to them to protect the face. Even with out the vest the average soldiers LBV will stop all but the luckiest shot form your sold called weapon.

The weapon can be made out of PVC piping as well and you can do it all with washers and epoxy or bondo, same as with the brass pipe. With epoxy mount the scope on the receiver and NOT on the PVC. At the rate of fire you will be using heat is not a problem.


You have a poor understanding of weapons and tactics. My advice quit watching saturday morning cartoons, reading comic books, and watching hollywood movies for the info on weapons and tactics.

JDAM

What the fuck, couldn't you have posted the entire thread while you where at it????:mad:

Couldn't you just have replied to what you wanted without quoting his entire fucking post??

DON'T do that again!!!

Now I happen to have just gotten new body armor at work so.. I have some old body armor that seems rather lonely...So if anyone is in the Los Angeles area I will let some one shoot me point blank in the chest wearing the vest 5 times with your 2.5in bolt action rifle with the epoxy and pve silencer if i can take 1 shot at them with a practical rifle like an ar15 as theyre running away with their hacked .22 whith the epoxied and plastic silencer at around 100 yards or so. any takers?

The pictures of the deers heads are nice but as a fair comparison you must also do the same test with other calibers as well dont you think? fairs fair. 7.62x39, .223, .308, .375H&H? 12 gauge slugs?


::Be Carefull JDAM though you are 100% correct that being only your 6th post they will assume you dont know anything. And this being my first post with this username they'll probably block me again oh well... ::

Again I think we are getting carried away with this a bit.

We know that silenced .22 weapons can be useful in certain situations.
we know that they HAVE been used before with some success.
Most of us seem to have doubts as to the combat effectiveness of such a round.
just about all of us agree that a 3 inch or so barrel is a bit to short on a rifle.
though, a lot of revolvers have short barrels like that to be fair. However, I dont recommend chopping a rifle.

Either way, my personal opinion is that the problem is being approached bass-ackwards. Although it's good to be able to improvise weapons when neccessary, you shouldn't get carried away with "wouldn't it be cool if..." type of thinking.

Ask yourself what the problem/scenerio is most likely to be, and then determine the most efficient way to solve that problem.

IMO anyway.

Right now we are seeing an insurgency war getting fought in Iraq. I'm sure there are other people besides me who are taking notes from this board. There's no sense in letting yourself get lost in the fantastic possibilities when you have a real world situation that you can learn from.

I beleive that there is not much point in sawing off a .22 rifle below about a 10" - 15" barrel unless you are going for maximum concealability.

Cutting the barrel real short may limit the velocity, but it also creates a much larger muzzle flash/blast that is harder to silence. It also SEVERELY impairs accuracy because the rifling is only in contact with the bullet for a very short amount of time and because of this the bullet is not stabilised. You may say that pistols are accurate with short barrels, but rifle barrels are made with much slower twists than pistol barrels, and a pistol will never be as accurate as a rifle of similar quality.

Use subsonics if you want low velocities :rolleyes: .

And BTW, if you have any concerns about stopping power, go for a cowboy rifle chambered in .357 Mag. You can fire .357 for maximum stopping power in nasty situations, or you can fire .38 Special (already subsonic and works fine in .357 weapons) with a silencer for those situations where stealth is required. The downside is that although they have a high rate of fire, cowboy rifles are not as accurate at bolt action rifles, but it would be very difficult to find a bolt action chambered for .357, unless you had it custom made.

by cowboy rifle, do you mean a lever action rifle?

*ponders*

I don't see how (unless it's all you have access to) that would be a good choice.

Could you explain your reasons for it's suitability?

Sorry about the late reply, I haven't read this thread in ages.

All I meant was any rifle chambered in .357Mag that has a tubular magazine. This is so that it can feed .38 Special (a normal box magazine can't do this).

Your a thinker with regard to weapons and their function, I like that... XYZ there is a difference between a "Clip" and a "Magazine" see insert and judge for yourself.

MP
http://www.hunt101.com/img/077062.jpg

Yeah, I knew that (doh...), what I really meant to say was a box magazine (or drum :) ), as a tubular magazine is still a magazine.

I have edited my post to correct it, calling a magazine a "clip" is a bad habit that I have picked up from PC games and movies :( .

Just as a thought for the board:

All those people worried about the reduction in velocity from the cut-down barrel, there is a simple and obvious way round that problem.

Eley, amongst others, make ammo in .22 specifically for short barrelled pistols and revolvers. The powder charge is designed to burn completely before the round exits the muzzle.
If you shoot this stuff out of a rifle, the report is a lot less than normal, as the powder is very cool, and there are fewer sparks, etc.

This will mean that your silencer won't get full of unburnt powder and shit, and the flash will be lower, and you should get better accuracy.

For what it is worth, pistols are not less accurate than rifles. I have seen video of wheelguns being used to hit targets at 300+ meters, and seen a 7.62mm "pistol" that hits targets at 1000 yards+ every time. Compared to a .22 rifle or a BP rifle or musket, they are certainly more accurate at these ranges.

With a good load, pistols can be very repeatable. It is just that semi-auto pistols hide this very well!

He was actually cutting the barrel to a ridiculous length to try to reduce the velocity to subsonic levels, I have no idea why he seemed to be ignoring the obvious, subsonic ammo.

The trouble with shortening rifle barrels is that they no longer stabilise the bullet (they have a much slower rifling twist than pistol barrels and need to be a lot longer), if the bullet is not properly stabilised, then accuracy will go to shit after about 25m.

The only way that I can see around this problem is to get a specialty .22 rifle barrel with a twist that is twice the normal rate (they make these for target shooting with Aguila SSS ammo, which is 60grain). In this way, you could have a barrel that is half the length but still stabilises .22LR properly. Even then, you would only be able to cut the barrel down to 8" or 9" before stabilisation became a problem.

A 7.62mm pistol may be able to hit a target at 1000+ yards, but there are 7.62mm precision rifles that will manage 0.2MOA and could theoretically hit a 2" circle at that distance, in practice, it is closer to 3" or 4" but much better than you would ever get from a pistol.


EDIT: Go here to have a look at some precision rifles http://users.bigpond.com/pdunnprs/faqs/products/products.html

We exported some 7.62 Sniping Equipment a while ago. The first three shot group that rifle fired during testing was measured at one fifth of an inch at 200 yards. That is less than one tenth of M.O.A. - and about usual for our MilSpec rifles in this calibre.

Now lets see you get that kind of accuracy with a pistol :)

Keep in mind that as you shorten the barrel, you increase the flash. For example, an M4A1 with a standard 14" barrel has a HUGE flash. It's 20" counterpart, the M16, has a much smaller one. Also, make sure that you're using a caliber that can function well with slow bullets. The .223, for example, is useless unless the bullet is going 2500-2700 fps. The same goes for the .22, which is pretty useless at a distance, anyway. I realize that the main topic is the .22, but the quote about the .30 cal rounds confused me. :D

Also, 1/10 MOA is unheard of. No rifle is capable of that.

I have already mentioned that short barrels will increase the flash, and like Jack's Complete has said, the use of pistol ammunition (.22LR with faster burning powders) should reduce this.

Yes, this topic is concerned mostly with .22LR, the quote about the .30cal rifles was just to show that pistols will never be capable of the same accuracy as rifles of similar quality. It is my participation in the short barrel vs. long barrel debate.

Look at the link and some of those groups and you'll see what I mean. The rifles normally can't make 1/10th of a MOA, it is usually closer to 0.2 or 0.25 MOA. They are VERY carefully made bolt action rifles that are designed for the absolute maximum in long range accuracy.

I can hit a one gallon milk jug with my 2 inch M85...at 100 yards. Rifles arent that much more accurate than pistols, since the rifling spins much tighter with short barrels. Although the trajectory for short barreled guns is often lower, they will always be the same vertically. Not to mention it takes much more talent to hit with a handgun then rifle.

I know that pistols have a much faster twist, read the last 5 - 10 posts I have made in this thread.

Yeah, you can hit a one gallon milk jug with your pistol, but you could hit the lid from the jug with a decent rifle (not even a precision rifle, any scoped rifle that will manage 1MOA, which most do).

Anyway, lets stop this argumant about pistols and rifles, a pistol may be all that is needed in the situation that this thread is talking about. A pistol can also be concealed much more easily. I would still much prefer a rifle if I had to depend on it to kill/disable an armoured soldier at 100m using only subsonic .22LR. Each to his own I suppose...

xyz, I didn't see that you'd already addressed the barrel flash problem, and I apologize. .25 MOA is considered excellent for a sniper rifle, and even .5 is fairly good. To be considered "sniper quality," they usually just have to be under 1 MOA.

NickSG, the longer the barrel is, the more accurate the rifle is (assuming the construction is the same), because a: rifle calibers have more power, which increases the effective range, b: rifling does make a difference, but barrel length matters more, and c: the longer the barrel is, the more power the projectile has, which increases the effective range.

Explanations:

A: High-powered rifle calibers obviously have more muzzle energy and a higher velocity. This makes them flatter shooters, which increases accuracy, unless you're from Kentucky. (seasoned American shooters should get this one :).)

B: Tighter rifling does, in many cases, mean more accuracy. However, rifling can be too tight. It is crucual that you choose an appropriate rifling for your bullet weight and length. For example, the M16A1, which shot 55 grain short bullets, had 1:12 rifling, while the M16A2, which shoots longer 62 grain bullets, has 1:7 rifling. The tighter rifling is necessary to stablize the larger bullets. However, assuming that the rifling is appropriate for your caliber and loads, the barrel length makes a huge difference. For example, the M4A1 with a 14" barrel is not nearly as accurate as the M16A2 with a 20" barrel. They have the same cartridge and rifling, but the difference in accuracy is like night and day.
NOTE: Tighter rifling in the M4 would NOT increase accuracy! It would not be able to handle a projectile of that size, and it would simply burn up the barrel. The 1:7 wears out easily already.

C: Longer barrels have much more power. I'll use the M16 and M4 for examples again. The M4 has had take-down problems at medium ranges. At those ranges, the bullet cannot properly yaw and fragment, so it is basically like being shot with a .22LR. The M16, however, has had no such problems, and as long as the ranges aren't past 600-800m or so, it should be fine.
The difference in power also means a difference in effective ranges, not just in the field of terminal ballistics, but in flatness of trajectory. All things drop with an acceleration of 9.8 m/s^2. The faster the bullet gets to the target, the less it drops on the way; it's that simple.

EDIT: xyz, you must have been typing yours while I was typing mine. Anyway, I'll have to disagree with you when you said that any reasonable scoped rifle would be able to hit, or even graze, a milk cap at 200 yards. If the milk cap is 1" wide, and it is 200 yards away, the rifle would have to be .25 MOA or less. This means it would have to be an EXTREMELY accurate sniper rifle.

I do agree with you when you said that you'd rather use a rifle than .22 LR subsonic ammo against an armored soldier. That wouldn't even get through a flak jacket. It would only work in hit-and-run with one or two people attacking.

It was 100 yards, not 200... I understand 1MOA to mean 1" group diameter at 100 yards. With the top to the milk jug being ever so slightly over 1" in diameter, I think you should hit it with 1 MOA.

I think you misunderstood my comment about preferring a rifle, while I would definitely prefer a decent centrefire, what I meant was: If I had to use a subsonic .22LR to put down an armoured soldier at 100m, then I would much prefer a .22 rifle than a .22 pistol to stand a better chance of hitting somewhere where it counts.

Like I said, I would much prefer a centrefire to .22LR

You guys are comparing two completely different things.

First of all, I did not use a scope. I was also using a low powered pistol round, so comparing a .38 snub with a high tech fancy pants .223 with a scope wont get you anywhere. Put that .223 in a pistol barrel and add a decent scope and you will get just as tight of groups with about the same trajectory.

I know the longer the barrel is, the more power you get, but the last couple of inches of barrel wont make too much of a difference. Look at the .22. Out of a 6 1/2 inch barrel, a 40 grain solid gets 1100 FPS, while out of a 18 inch barrel, it only gets 1250 FPS. The same goes with just about every other bullet out there. I witnessed one of my good friends get a 2 inch 5 shot group with his .30-06 pistol at 150 yards.

Comparing rifles with handguns is like comparing bikes and automobiles. With a rifle, even with a 10 inch barrel, you have many more advantages than with a pistol of the same barrel length.

xyz,

The pistol I was talking about was a match grade action, long barrelled pistol, and it is a definate piss-take. However, it is a pistol, and it shot (shoots?) better than 1MOA, rested. I only refered to it to make a point that you cannot just say "This is more accurate than that, because this is a rifle, and that is a pistol".

The average AK is only good for 2-5 MOA, depending where it was made. There are souped up 1911 pistols that can beat that easily.

I didn't realise the OP was talking about cutting a rifle barrel down to quite such stupidly short lengths. At two or three inches, you are going to get a lot of inaccuracy as the muzzle blast continues to burn, and pushes randomly on the base and sides of the bullet.

Besides, anyone cutting the barrel that short is bound to screw up the crown, which wrecks accuracy anyway!

I would use a decent potato gun as my primary weapon before a .22 cut down to those barrel lengths, unless it was a damned good weapon, rather than a dodgy homemade one. At least the 'tater would have some knockdown on a slightly hardened target.

NickSG and everyone else, let's stop this short barrel/long barrel debate before it gets like the "Does Flash detonate?" one.

All it really boils down to is whether you would depend on your weapon of choice to take out an armoured soldier at 100yards, knowing that if you miss you'll probably be dead. If you are happy to try this with a pistol then that's your choice, but let's stop arguing about it.

There is no pistol made that will ever compare to a rifle.

It is simple ballistics, you need to get velocity to get the range you need and a short barrel of a pistol will never do it no mater how hot the load is.

Most "sniper rifles" of a larger caliber still have at least 100+ inches of drop at 1000 meters so to get that from a pistol you may as well aim for the moon and hope that it drops on target.

It is pointless to get 1MOA groups if your round has the stopping power of a bb at range.

90% of normal shooters couldnt hit a man sized target past 500 meters with a rifle and scope let alone a pistol.

Pace off 500 meters and show me a good group with enough power to do fatal damage with a pistol or short barrel rifle to prove me wrong

You do know that most target pistols have 10 inch + barrels. You need to stop thinking we are comparing .38 special snubbies with .30-06s with 26 inch barrels. I was just showing that a 2 inch barrel is more accurate than most people think.

Also, like I said earlier, the trajectories of a pistol and rifle are different, but vertically there is no difference.

Sometimes I feel like I'm talking to a wall. I realize that we're talking about pistol calibers and not rifle calibers, but my .223 example was simply to make a point about barrel length. Barrel length makes a huge difference in muzzle velocity, energy, and bullet stability. Nick, I don't know how you can say that barrel length doesn't affect bullet drop. I basically proved that it does in my last post.

To sum-up what I said, since the acceleration of gravity is equal for all falling bodies, the only thing that affects a bullet's drop is its velocity. Since a longer barrel increases bullet velocity, it would decrease bullet drop.

Also, a 2-inch barrel would be the quivalent of a little snub-nose, so I think that's EXACTLY what we're talking about.

As far as the milk cap situation goes, it was late, and I thought it was 200 :). Regardless, the rifle would have to be .5 MOA, which is still sniper-quality. (MOA refers to radius, not diameter.)

Ok, I will say this one more time.

The barrels length does not effect accuracy, only trajectory. This means if you set a twenty foot long 2x4 200 yards away, and aim for the top, both a pistol and rifle will hit it, only the pistol would hit a little lower.

The barrel length does affect accuracy. A sniper rifle with a barrel under 24" is unheard of. We'll use the 9mm as an example. Are you really trying to convince people that an M9 pistol is as accurate as an MP5 SMG? Sniper rifles with barrels shorter than 24" are unheard of, and with good reason.

Osassin, NickSG has posted some useful stuff but right now I'm getting that "wall" feeling too...

NickSG, Of course barrel length affects accuracy, I thought you were actually fairly knowledgeable when it came to firearms but that statement was the kind of thing that could have gotten you banned if you were a n00b...

Here is a simple experiment for you to try, take a drinking straw and a tissue, take a piece of tissue and wet it and then use the straw as a "pea shooter" to blow the tissue out at something. Observe the accuracy that you get. Now cut the straw down to 2cm and try again. See what we're talking about?

A longer barrel means that the projectile spends a longer time period being persuaded to go in as straight a line as possible. If barrel length doesn't affect accuracy, then can you show us a 3-4MOA group from your .38 snubnose? ...didn't think so, and there are plenty of rifles that will fire .38 special to 1-2MOA so don't blame the calibre. Don't blame the "pistols are harder to aim" thing either, clamp it in a vice for shooting the groups.

Guys, please!

If you clamp a 2" barrel, and work up a nice load for it, you will get plenty of accuracy. You will need to play with charge, rate of twist of the rifleing, etc. but you will get there. You will have no problem shooting super groups for your pistol.

Now, take that two inch barrel, and put it on a pistol grip, and shoot it. You won't be able to come close to the actual ability of your barrel and load. This is because your sight radius is too short! Stick a scope on it, and you will be so put off by the lightweight thing jumping up and down and swaying (due to heartbeat and wind) that you will find it hard to shoot at all well.

Now, turn your "pistol" into a "rifle" by adding a shoulder stock. Instantly, your stability will get ~5 times better!

The only difference between a single shot 9mm pistol, and an MP5, is that one has a shoulder stock, and the other doesn't! In the hands of a pro, the pistol will be more accurate!

In 9mm, for example, a fair shot with a glock pistol will find that they get a group with half the vertical and horizontal dispersion with an MP5. That is some improvement! However, the barrel length is very similar (although the MP5 has delayed blowback, so is naturally more accurate) BUT the big difference is, the shoulder stock lets you sight better, and stay on target better.

Barrel length has nothing to do with the distinction (though the law may say otherwise, but we all know the law is an ass!)

REMEMBER! The only difference between a rifle and a pistol is whether there is a shoulder stock or not!


Edit: To address a few other things:

You might be very surprised if you clamped the snub nosed revolver, and shot it next to the underlever. However, this isn't fair, as the snub nose will lose a lot of gas through the cylinder/barrel join, so it will be less accurate. Use a single shot pistol, and see the difference almost disappear.

Now cut your rifle barrel down to the same two inch length, and they will be almost impossible to tell apart.

Basically, you are all argueing the same thing, but from different veiwpoints.

The accuracy issue is kind of a waste of time.

First off it depends what you want to shoot at and at what ranges, then what you want to use.

If i am going for a tank at 100 meters i dont need 1MOA then if i happen to go for a mans eye at the same range then i want the most accurate weapon i can get.

Pistols can and are very accurate as well as rifles so the main concern is application.

Now in the concept of a supressed sniper weapon you need to know what your target will be and what ranges you plan to engage, to get the right load that has the terminal energy to take the target out. And of course the amount of sound reduction you need need will also make a big differance in your choice.

Jack's Complete hit the nail on the head! Like I said already, there are many, many more advantages using a rifle over a pistol. As long as the barrel and gun is well made the difference in accuracy will be minute.

No, I can not print 4 inch groups at 100 yards with my snub, but there are pistols than can easily print 1 inch groups at 100 yards.

Corrections on Jack's post:
1. He seems to think that semi-automatic pistols are single-shot pistols. There's a pretty big difference between the two.
2. "In the hands of a pro, the pistol will be more accurate!" PLEASE! What would a pyro be able to do? A gunsmith is what you need.
3. "REMEMBER! The only difference between a rifle and a pistol is whether there is a shoulder stock or not!" I was so shocked by this statement that I hardly know where to begin. Combat pistols do not usually have barrels longer than 5". This is a hell of alot different than a rifle.

There is a reason why most military and SWAT squads use MP5's, rather than something like a MAC-10. Although the caliber is the same, and a folding stock and a supressor make the MAC-10 just as stable as the MP5, the latter is significantly more accurate, because it has a longer barrel. I hope that's the last example I'll have to give.

Also, I'd like to remind everyone that there is no such thing as a .22 sniper rifle. This thread is about .22's, so we should really stick that that, but to say that the field of sniper rifles is even related to .22's is grossly inaccurate. Sniper rifles are sub-MOA high-powered rifles that have an effective range of 800m+.

In response to PHAID's comment about application over accuracy, I'd like to say that pistols are pretty much worthless in most cases unless in the hands of a Delta Force operator. There is a saying that says that Spec Ops groups would never use a pistol in a rifle fight, but they would use a pistol to prevent one. Pistols are not extremely accurate, they are not very powerful, and they are harder to control than rifles or SMG's. They are meant for use as a defensive weapon. Their only advantages are that they are compact and that they are easily supressed (although SMG's are just as easy.)

The folks who build these things for a living generally like 9-10 inch barrels for pistol caliber rifles. Ossassin, I have to disagree with you on a couple of points. The MAC-10 is not equally as accurate as the MP-5. The MAC has a flimsy wire stock and a 5 inch barrel. The MP-5 has a good, solid stock and about an 8 inch barrel. The MAC fires from an open bolt, while the MP-5 fires from a closed bolt. This last factor alone makes the MP-5 a more accurate weapon. I've fired both, and I have to admit I liked the MP-5 better. Easier to keep on target in bursts and more solid feeling. The MAC was designed, according to its designer, to "take out a room full of very surprised colonels". It's advantages for its role is concealabilty and high rate of fire, about almost 50% faster than the MP-5. The Russians build a .22 caliber sniper rifle, the SV-99. It has a 14" barrel and silencer. Breaks down into a nice, compact little package. They do consider the maximum range to be about 100-150 meters. Do a websearch on SV-99 + rifle and you should find more about it. I have to agree with you about pistols being primarily defensive weapons, in most instances. If you know trouble is coming, you would pick up something with a bit more oomph and range.
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"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

Charlie, I know which rifle you mean, and many such rifles are incorrectly labeled "sniper rifles." One example is the SVD. It was meant to "extend the range of the average rifleman." A true sniper rifle is a sub-MOA rifle that is meant for long-range one-shot kills. There is currently a debate going on as to if the M82 is a true sniper rifle. Since it is so heavy, it is hard for sniper teams to carry them for extended amounts of time. It is also only 1 MOA.

As far as the .22 is concerned, it would only work well in ideal conditions. .22 bullets are blown off course VERY easily.

IIRC, The M82 is classed as an anti-material rifle, not a sniper rifle. Sniper rifles are designed primarily for anti-personnel use. Anti-material rifles are designed primarily for use against vehicles, equipment, and personnel who are behind cover.

XYZ, your comment on the M-82 being an antimaterial rifle brought to mind my army days. The instructor told us that the fifty cal M-2 HMG was considered to be too big to legally shoot at people. Therefore, if anyone was to ask us after the fact we were to say they were riding in a truck when we opened fire!
Ossassin, your definition of sniper is pretty narrow. It is generally used for anyone firing a rifle from a concealed position to a definite target. Police snipers shoot from an average range of 90 meters (FBI stats). The slimeballs in Maryland used a .223 "assault rifle", but few would argue that they were not snipers. Not the best or highly trained snipers, but you can't argue their effectiveness. The Russians found out that the .22 can be very effective in urban warfare. The Chechens used scoped TOZ-17 training rifles with homemade silencers to good effect against them. Your comments on the range limitations are true, but in this case, irrelevant. It all depends on your viewpoint. The Marines have a saying- "The Army sniper is the Marine Expert Rifleman".
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"To paraphrase Aristotle, life is a gas!"
-Gidget

Originally posted by ossassin

Also, I'd like to remind everyone that there is no such thing as a .22 sniper rifle. This thread is about .22's, so we should really stick that that, but to say that the field of sniper rifles is even related to .22's is grossly inaccurate.

Are you so apsolutly sure there is no .22cal sniper rifles in the world we take a look here at the SV-99 extreamly small light weight and very good for close range fire 100m or less.

Also on a personaly note I have seen white tail deer(180lb large buck) hit in the head with a .22 mag at 80 to 90m and drop like they were hit with a 183grain .30cal round.

I believe a .22cal lr or Mag would make an effective close range sniper weapon.

I personally would use a .45cal or 9mm carbine for the same ranges a lot more punch for roughly the same size and weight also .45 cal and 9mm ammo is very abundent in most areas.


In a pintch if all i had was a small cal weapon I would perfer a reliable weapon like a .22cal its small light weight and extreamly accurate little to no kick wich alows for extreamly radid accurate fire.

Chemical, there is no such thing as a close range sniper rifle. Just because someone is concealed, doesn't make them a sniper. All true sniper rifles are meant for long range shooting; I still stand by what I said before. I've also already addressed the SV-99. Take a look at some of my previous posts.

The definition of "sniper rifle" depends on your definition of a sniper. The media seems to define a sniper as anyone who shoots people from a range of more than about 50m.

Anyway, it is pointless to argue about what a sniper rifle is. It doesn't really matter so long as people can understand what you are talking about.

I tihnk people are missing the point to this thread. It started off with a novel method of converting a .22 for use in built up areas. Given calling it an urban sniper rifle is a bit of a stretch - but it appears IMO to be a nifty way of improving the effectiveness of an otherwise ordinary rifle.
using the example of an old single shot .22 rifle - you have a weapon that is fairly loud (loud enough for a built up area anyway) even when using sub soincs. If you put a silencer on the end of the rifle it becomes quite cumbersom due to the added lenght. If the rifle was converted as described you now have a compact , relatively quiet rifle. Sure you'll loose some accuracy and some power but it would still be effective, the old barrell was probably fairly worn to begin with and your effective range on a .22 isnt that great at the best of times - a little practice witht he converted rifle will show you exactly what its capable of and then you work within its capabilities.
This isnt something Id do to a decent .22 rifle tho - it would be a waste to chop the barrel of a highly accurate target rifle off - IMO such a weapon would be more effective as is. That to me is the most important idea behind the thread - using whatever is at hand most effectivley. Sure if youve got a bunch of nice guns you never need to think about converting a measly .22 as described origionally - but if that .22 is all you had access too then its in your best interest to make it as effective as possible for your situation. Take the idea and adjust it to your preferences - if you need a 10" barrel - then leave it on and use sub sonics - which are far less common than .22 lr - that being the only reason I can see for using the lenght of the barrel to decrease the speeds to sub sonic - if the shit hit the fan you might not be able to get subsonic rounds - therefor knowing how to utilize .22lr's in their place becomes quite handy.
IMO Making the best of whats available should be the direction for this thread takes - not comparing the .22 to your flashy assult rifle or you .25 MOA sniper rifle. Or arguing over the effects the barrel lenght has on accuracy. Sure its important to note the deficiencies of the rifle described - but thats been covered already.
Im still hoping that someone does a conversion as described and posts pics and results so we could all look at proof instead of conjecture. SWIM is working on it but its taking a damn long time - rifle acquisition down under can be problematic - hopesfully someone else comes through in the meantime.

I agree that this thread has gone for a bit of a wander around since the original topic. The thing about the assault rifles and the sniper rifles all came out of the debate about how short to cut the barrel, but it is off topic and we should try to get this thread back on track again.

Anyway, good luck with finding a rifle, check garage sales and stuff, or simply find a barrel and build your own .22 from that. The barrel is the only part of the gun that really needs to be commercially produced, the rest can be made.

Do you have those F@(%$# annoying magpie crows in your part of Australia? The ones that swoop down to peck people's heads if they are too close to the nest? Anyway, one of my friends told me a story about the old man that lives next door to him. Some magpie crows had taken up residence in the trees on the old man's property and were greatly annoying him. The old man spent several days in his shed during which welding and metalworking could be heard, and then he emerged with a homemade single-shot .22LR and shot all the crows. It turned out that he had made every part of the rifle except for the barrel, which had been sitting in his shed for years.

Your right about finding a rifle, Im lucky in that I live in a rural area and lots of farms have old .22's - the hard part is convincing them to part with it.
Yeah - Ive got magpies here too - nasty little bastards arent they - apparently its hormonal and they cant help it - they are just nuts in that season!
Making your own guns is probably the easiest way to get them in Australia - unless youve got a decent bankroll and the right contacts. Making the barrel is the hardest part - unlike a lot of people tho I dont have a problem using smooth bore barrels on improvised guns, I dont expect a whole lot of accuracy out of a home built weapon to begin with - but a propper rifeled barrel would be handy if you can get it.
Do you happen to know if you can buy those .22 barrle liners without a licence? If you can get them they would really be the best way to improvise a barrel.
But SWIM is still going to try and aquire a real .22 and do the conversion just so we get some accurate information on it and what such a set up is capable of - if it could reliably give a head shot a 50m then Id consider it quite functional. If it cant manage a torso hit at 50m then Id agree with those who say its a useless idea - but I expect it would be ok - not fantastic, but a handy little gun.

I would do my best to try and find a commercially made barrel if possible, don't expect much accuracy otherwise.

A 6mm smoothbore barrel made from drilled out bar stock is OK for close range, but you want a commercial barrel for reaching out and touching things.

I found the following article addressing the subject of shortening the barrel to 2.5 in
The entire article can be found at
http://www.guns.connect.fi/gow/wildlife.html

Excerpt follows.........................

The Use of Firearm Sound Suppressors for Wildlife Management

by Mark White


we own a small company called Sound Technology, which has supplied municipalities and private contractors with firearm sound suppressors over the past twenty years. For the most part, we supply sound reduction devices for small caliber arms – primarily .22 LR rifles, a few pistols, and an occasional .308 rifle.


In the firearm sound suppression industry a tremendous amount of effort has been expended toward limiting the velocity of common high-speed .22 LR projectiles. Typically this is done by shortening barrels by either cutting them off, or by drilling holes (ports). For a combination of reasons we have found that barrels shorter than four inches are not particularly accurate, while barrels between six and seven inches long are as accurate or are more accurate than .22 LR barrels up to thirty inches long.

FragmentedSanity, you can buy and own barrels here (any barrels) without a licence, the only part you need to have a licence to own and a permit to buy is the action or recever (sp?). If you go to a gun show you will be able to get barrels is most calibers you could want :D .
I have seen gun parts and even complete guns at markets and clearing sales too.

That's nice to know irish. BTW, do you (or anyone else) know what gunsmiths in Australia have to do to a firearm to certify it as deactivated?

I know that the barrel and chamber are welded closed, but what else? Do they remove the entire action?

xyz,
I think they also have to grind the firing pin flat with the bolt face and I presume that they weld it too, otherwise it's easy to replace a firing pin on most guns.
I have never tried to reactivate a welded gun but to save the barrel you would need to grind out all the welded bit (after cutting it open) and then re-ream the chamber, this would be ok with a .22lr or any strait wall cartridge but a pain in the youknowhats for anything else. They do sell chamber reamers in some gunshops.
You will probably have to make your own bolt to reactivate a gun but a lot of "bits" would be saveable.

Barrels are completely un-registered in Oz? Wow, then I suggest stocking up on a few in the calibers you want.

The UK says that every part that bears pressure, like barrel, bolt, silencer, etc. is classed as a "part of a firearm" and is restricted.

Weirdly, air rifle silencers are legal, but the second you put one on a firearm, it becomes a restricted part. What's really weird is that air rifles over 12ftlbs/16 joules are classed as firearms too, and are subject to the same laws as firearms.

Uk gun law is fucked. Oz laws are nearly as bad.

xyz, Oz isn't the only country suffering from "tyranny of the majority". At least the Iraqis can tell the bad guys.
In the UK and Oz, they often have the same accent and skin colour...

Nice to know barrels arent restricted - I thought seeing as the laws were so strict about everything else gun related I wouldnt stand a chance - hence the question about the liners. I'll have to get to a gun show sometime soon. Then all I need to do is to come up with a way of buying ammo - someone friendly with a licence is about my only hope - can t buy primers - cant buy powder - hell you cant even buy air rifle pellets anymore and I used to be able to walk into a gunshop when I was 11 and buy them...

walbern - that was a damn nice article you pointed us to. Maybe now we can all just agree on using 6inch barrels as a compromise.

I c ouldnt handle a place where your restricted to the level you are.
For here in the USA the only parts restrictions are on recievers for non FFL holders.
I remember Shotgun News advertising silencer kits several years ago but those have been taken off the market.

Here is a link to their site, you may find suppliers for your country listed.
https://store.primediamags.com/subscribe/shotgunnews/4078

Here is their direct link.
http://www.shotgunnews.com/knox/

The UK says that every part that bears pressure, like barrel, bolt, silencer, etc. is classed as a "part of a firearm" and is restricted

I think you'll find you are incorrect. Barrels are not illegal in the uk for the common man to own, unless they have been chambered for a cartridge, after which they become illegal. Firearm silencers aren't restricted either.

Irish, why would I bother grinding out the barrel welds when I could just buy a new barrel?

Re-activating a de-activated firearm would be easier than building one from scratch. BTW, you can buy chamber reamers fairly cheaply online and as far as I know they are not restricted in any way in Australia. I have seen .22LR chamber reamers for around $35USD.

I'm not sure how much easier it would be to reactivate a deactivated firearm - current EU specs require a lot of metal removal, and it's always a lot harder to put it back on than take it away. Check this page for info on what's done to UK deacts http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-deact_ak74m.htm

I wonder does anyone know what it's like for chamber reamers in the UK? Would it be legal to import them?

zaibatsu,

both barrels and silencers are illegal or legal, depending on circumstance.

A silencer is legal, unless you put it on a firearm, without a legal slot on your FAC, on which it states that you may have a firearm silencer. At the point of attachment, you have have committed an offence, which, on summary conviction, can get you up to ten years inside. However, if you have an air rifle (or even if you don't) you can buy one off-ticket. Once it is put onto your FAC, it is classed as part of a firearm, and has to be kept locked up in the same way as your bolt, ammo, etc. Yes, it is stupid, but it is the law.

As for barrels, good luck argueing with the judge. The moment you cut rifleing into it, you are probably in trouble. Hell, even before that, you could get done, since it COULD be a shotgun barrel, or a smoothbore slug gun barrel. Basically, get caught with machine tools and anything approching a set of instructions, along with a barrel, or even just a chamber reamer, and you could well be looking at jail time. Once you have fired something though it, like a proof round, then it is certainly a barrel, and you are definately in trouble if it isn't in a valid slot on your ticket. If you don't have a ticket, you will go to jail. If you do, you won't for much longer, and you still might go to jail.
An example of this is the fact that if you own a BP pistol, you need a full slot for another pistol, if you want to own a second cylinder for it!

In fact, there are just two parts that are definately not going to get you into trouble, one is a magazine, and the other is a telescopic sight. Anything else can be used to build a case against you, and, needless to say, they would then use the sight and the magazine against you as well!

Reactivation of a modern, legally de-activated gun in the UK is a lost cause, really. The bolt face is generally cut away, and the barrel is blocked, the rod welded in place, then a hole drilled, which is often then refilled and drilled again, so that there is a big weak area with the small pressure hole in it, meaning the whole barrel needs to be swapped out. The action is sometimes welded shut, too.

The UK has the strictest de-act standards in the world, afaik. There was a massive stink back in 1988, or something like that, and they tightened up the law a lot in this area. For all the good it did.

The UK says that every part that bears pressure, like barrel, bolt, silencer, etc. is classed as a "part of a firearm" and is restricted
A silencer is legal, unless you put it on a firearm, without a legal slot on your FAC

Those two statements are contradictory. They either are restricted, or they aren't. Yes, when you apply for a FAC you do need to state you will be using a moderator, but it's not so strict if you don't, although you do need to pay a fee to modify your licence if you decide to use one later on. Firearm silencers aren't restricted.

The fact that you can buy an unchambered barrel is just that, a fact, as people that regularly read "Gun Mart" will have noticed a company called Sabre Defence offering barrel blanks in quite a few calibres about a year ago.

Yes, the law is contradictory. So what is new?

Ask the local firearms licensing department for guidance. I'm not a lawyer, and nor are they, but they are the ones who will arrest you. Take it from me, you put a silencer on anything capable of more than 12ftlbs, and you are breaking the law.

Once you put it on a firearm, it becomes a restricted part.

A way around the law is to buy a firearm or shotgun that has a non-detachable built-in silencer.

As an example of the screwed up nature of the UK firearms law:

The 1997 Act prohibits all handguns except:
< snip >
* firearms which are regarded as antique under the Home Departments' guidelines, provided that they are held as a curiosity or ornament.

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs/gunlaw.html

I know for a fact that if you wish to shoot your antique firearm, even for one shot, you need to apply for, or have varied, an FAC to cover it. You may then use it. At the end of that time, you may have it removed from your certificate, and not use it EVEN THOUGH it is exactly the SAME gun!
See http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs/antfiar.html for more BS from the home office.

To the best of my knowledge, the exact same is true of silencers. I can't find chapter and verse online, but I can find out for you if you really want it.

As for buying barrels, were they not banned that under "parts of a firearm" in the 1997/8 Acts?

Certainly I haven't seen any recently, and google comes up dry...

Again, I know what I said about the extra cylinders for a .44 BP pistol is true, too. Some police forces won't allow extra BP pistol cylinders at all!

Mark white is a pro in the manufacturing of .22 suppressed rifles. What he says about barrel length and accuracy is right on the money, a barrel thats 6.5 inches and ported to drop the velocity is incredibly accurate. 5 shots inside a bottlecap at 55yards is the norm useing bulk federal ammo from walmart. The problem that most folks have is lining the bore to the baffels. The barrel has to be turned down on a lathe with a live center and have a 2 point mount.....single point mounts are susceptable to damage very easily if they are bumped. The .22 is very lethal if proper shot placement is made, but I would prefer a silenced .45 carbine or a 9mm firing 147 grain subsonic FMJ.

Accuracy is important, but so is bullet drop. With that little 6.5 inch ported barrel, if your target is a few hundred yards away, it'll become an indirect-fire weapon. :)

If your intended target is a few hundred yards away a .22 is not the rifle to use. There is an old saying about using the right tool for the job and knowing the limitations of each. A suppressed .22 is a 100 yard weapon plain and simple, mind you it depends what you're shooting at as well.

Why would anyone one be shooting at at a trget a "few hundred yards away" with a .22lr that has a 6 inch barrel?
Of course bullet drop is important. So is shot placement - target acquisition -and any number of factors you care to name.
The most important thing is knowing the capabilities of your gun/round and working within them - Ive shot a lot of .22lr's over the years - but I wouldt try and hit anything other than a target at over 150meters - range on .22s is always limited.

The .22LR will kill pretty easily within about 500 yards, so if you can adjust your scope to shoot high, aim several feet above the target. Ammo choice is also important. A 30 grain bullet @ 1750 FPS will have a flatter trajectory than a 38 grain bullet @ 1050.

A .22lr will kill what pretty easily within 500 yards? even if you push them up to 2000 fps a slug of 40 grains much less 30, will have bugger all killing power past 200 meters at the most.
To get that sort of range and do something usefull when it gets there a bullet has to go very fast (think 3000 fps range) or be a lot heavyer than a .22 can fire.
The .22lr is an exellent caliber but I think some people give it a bit more credit than it's due, it may well be a very good snipeing round in some situations but 100 meters is going to be about the maximum range for human sized targets.

If you can shoot it accurately, and if it penetrates the skull then it can kill. Like FragmentedSanity said: you need to work within the limits of this weapon. That means not try to shoot someone over 100m. You usually dont need to shoot much farther in urban enviroment anyway.

Yes but the point being that this is the concept of a suppressed urban sniper rifle, small calibre, .22LR is to develop a weapon that is useful in urban situations which means you wouldnt be shooting several hundred yards only a hundred at most. This is more like fifty yards for the distance I would use this weapon against human targets because it is only intentioned for close range. If you wanted to hit something at 500 yards use a suppressed .308 (by this I mean muzzle flash and blast suppressor) around buildings you would have enough time for the sound to disperse and be redirected to disguise the firing point. But that isnt the question being asked it is about a small calibre (.22LR) sniper rifle. I am guessing it might be a weapon for picking off sentries (ie 2 people max) anything bigger than that well...<RANT> a .50BMG vulcan and a few thousand rounds ammo and a MBT and ... </RANT>
But dont get me wrong here I am certainly not questioning the capabilities of the .22LR but it just seems that this topic has taken on a lot bigger scope than was originally intended. This may have something to do with availability of .22LR pretty much anywhere or maybe it was the thread starter's preference to use .22LR I dont really know but maybe some realignment of this thread could be useful.

Irish- I said that the .22LR can kill out to 500 yards, not blow their head off and knock them off their feet. ;)

It only takes about 20 FPE to kill a grown man, and some .22 loads can have about three times that amount at 500 yards. Its all about shot placement. A good hit to the neck or head will easily proove fatal, even at 500 yards.

However, do know that I am not suggesting anyone try to take anything at 500 yards. I just stated that it will have enough energy to kill.

Gosh, guys, I was just making a point. I realize that no one is going to use this at several hundred yards, but the fact that you'd have to use indirect fire tactics with it at that range shows that the bullet drop with such a rifle is huge. Going back to what I said quite a while ago, I'd rather lengthen the barrel to get some extra power.

I think that you all are forgetting that in most situations that a civilian would be in, a kill is not essential. If any bullet hits some one it is human nature for that person to hit the deck. Even if you missed and only hit your target in the hand it would still take them out of commision for a couple of seconds, posibly enough time to get another shot off before they take cover. No one here would ever use a low powered rifle such as the .22 for an assasination unless one had a handgun to the targets head.
In a resistance situation, as described in the original post, a silenced .22 would be very practical just becaue of the volume of shots a shooter could get off before the target knew where they were coming from. In an organized attack, a group could keep a steady volly of shots into a group of exposed occupation forces.
At the end of the day each weapon has its porpose and each individual needs to look at thier own situation and determine for themselves which weapon would be the best.

But maybe it would be better to build urban suppresed sniper rifle out of a semi-auto .22lr target pistol by putting a suppressor and a stock for it and attaching a scope? If you cut the rifle short, its rifling doesnt do its work anymore, but pistol's rifling is more tight so no accuracy is lost. You could also hide it better since you can take off the suppressor, optics and stock.

Narker,
that is a good plan, but pistols are generally more highly regulated than rifles.

Plus, with the cut-off barrel parts, you can make at least one more improvised weapon.

You are wrong about the rifling too, as the twist is dependant on the bullet weight, but not the velocity or barrel length.

Jacks Complete, I think he meant that the rifling is tighter, not that it has a faster twist rate.

To continue Narkar's idea, you could build your design on a rifle that had been modified to accept a pistol barrel. This is easy with the TC Contender/Encore because both rifle and pistol versions are available that take the same size barrels (but not the same length of course). Unfortunately, these are single shot, you would need to do a bit of modification to get a pistol barrel onto a boltaction or semi auto rifle.

You can also do that with the AR-7 if you can find the pistol barrels Charter Arms used to have.

The lug on the barrel is 180 out on them so you need to notch them to fit.

I believe the barrels were 9" long and once you took the front sight off they were 1/2" in dia. which is perfect for threading .

Miller, I think you are forgetting that a second shot is much riskier than the first. In an urban setting, it will give away your position almost every time (depending on the situation). Also, remind me why this thing needs to have a short barrel. A few extra inches would make a world of difference with accuracy and bullet drop, but it wouldn't be much harder to handle. If anything, a longer barrel makes the rifle steadier.

(By the way, I guess no one else thought that the indirect-fire .22 thing was funny. I was rolling.) :)

The idea behind the short barrel was to make regualr .22lr ammo fire at subsonic velocities, making a very quiet weapon when combined with a suppressor.
The whole short/long barrel debate started because the original concept called for a 2 inch barrel, which most people instantly dismissed as being too short to fire accurately - It has since been shown that a barrel of 4 - 6 inches will do much the same while retaining much greater accuracy. Different ammo fires at different speeds, I believe the idea behind the extremely short barrel was so ANY ammo would be sub-sonic.
A removeable stock for a .22 pistol would obviously make for a superior weapon than a cut down rifle, IMO it would be a very nice weapon indeed - but if you can get a .22 pistol you wouldnt be looking at making something effectively the same, but of lesser quality. Remember we are talking about "improvising" things - trying to make the best out of whats on hand, so while a good idea, its not practical in this situation.

Because pistols can be hard to obtain, that's why I suggested obtaining just the pistol barrel and fitting it to a rifle

A barrel of 4 - 6 inches will push a lot of ammo over the speed of sound. The only real answer is to use subsonic ammunition or port the barrel. Porting will create excessive muzzle flash if the ports are not covered by the suppressor, if they are covered then it will create problems with unburnt powder building up inside the suppressor. This would mean that the suppressor had to be fully dismantled and cleaned much more often than normal. You can't port a barrel properly without machine tools, attempts to do so with a drill will make the barrel extremely inaccurate.

As I have said several times earlier in this thread, just get some subsonic ammunition. It is usually about the same price as regular ammo and it will save a lot of hassle. Most gun shops should have it.

As a sidenote, I was thinking how effective it would be to add a supressor, scope, and stock to one of the 10" barreled desert eagles and use 310 grain subsonic .44 mag loads :) . Unfortunately this can't exactly be improvised :p .

Well i totally disagree with the bolt gun theory for a close range urban enviroment . Most shots will probably be under 100 yards and quick followup shots may be necessary or it maybe necessary to engage multiple targets . Manipulateing a bolt is much slower than a semi-automatic , it requires the shooter to take your finger off the trigger and the motion necessary will contribute to giveing your position away . I have several 10/22s outfitted with Volquartsen parts and they are totally reliable . Necks , knees and nuts present no problem and if the victim has friends along rapid target aquistion is very easy with a semi-automatic .22 . From a concealed , ambush position out to 100 yards i'd put my money on me as opposed to half a dozen soldiers walking at the ready . Stick a bolt buffer in your 10/22 and you don't get any action clack . Radius the back of your bolt or buy one already radiused and there is no reliability issue useing standard velocity ammo . If it's absolutely necessary to kill your target , use something bigger but if incapacitation and terrorism are the object a .22 will do just fine . I have a Sionics intigrated full length suppressed barrel and it would work just fine for close range assassination but i see no need for a suppressor in a well planned , close range , fast gunfight . The idea is to avoid the fight by shooting fast and straight and then exfiltrateing very quickly . I"ve killed deer with a .22 and had a buddy shot with a .22 a few years ago . The bullet hit him just below the collarbone , hit the back of a shoulderblade and bounced forward takeing out a lung then bounced off his sernum and snapped his spine . From the spine it bounced forward and down and came to rest inside his large intestine . He'll be in a wheelchair forever . When bullets are flying and people are going down no one is listening for .22 brass hitting the floor so that is a non-issue . Next time the Palistinians are rampageing in the streets by the hundreds or thousands watch the news footage very closely . In the second rank you'll see people going down and being dragged off . The Isrealis are useing 10/22s and shooting them in the knees . Once that starts the rioting is usually over pretty quickly . It's terrorism and it works . Someone mentioned the Quick-shok ammo . I've used it on critters and tested it on wood and a prefragmented bullets leaves vicious wounds . With the PMC Moderators you don't need a suppressor . A single motivated individual with a .22 rifle and quiet ammo can strike fear into the hearts of a whole city and never have to shoot anyone . Just drive around to the electrical substations and distribution sites and shoot out the inline fuses , insulators and transformers . No power , no lights , no water , no sewer , no heat .

A barrel can be ported with a drill press and a cross slide vise. The ports have to be deburred by using a dremel tool with a 1/8" ball tip grinding bit. The accuracy using this technique is very good from what I've heard. The ports must be covered by the suppressor tube or else it would be like trying to suppress a revolver......just doesn't work. The can can be cleaned every 1500 rounds or so which is not bad as far as I'm concerned. Subsonic ammo is expensive and porting eliminates the need for it so why spend more money if you dont have to?

Originally posted by atr
Well i totally disagree with the bolt gun theory for a close range urban enviroment . Most shots will probably be under 100 yards and quick followup shots may be necessary or it maybe necessary to engage multiple targets . Manipulateing a bolt is much slower than a semi-automatic , it requires the shooter to take your finger off the trigger and the motion necessary will contribute to giveing your position away . I have several 10/22s outfitted with Volquartsen parts and they are totally reliable .

Yes, with a 10/22 there is no problem, the recoill and the weigth of the moving parts are compensed by the length and weigth of the barrel and stock, but on an gas operated 7.62 FAL, how will you compensate the recoill of the shot ? And the counter weitgh of the gas piston and bolt going backwards, plus the inerent bad habit of the upwards movement after each shot ? And the leakage of gas through the recoill system, will not give an audible signature, maybe rendering the supressor useless ?

I think that a good bolt action 7.62 rifle, with an heavy barrel, epoxi bed, good sigth and even standard ammunition can cause more casualtyes than an gas opered rifle.

Besides, when on deadly ground, you will not have the chance to shoot twice while hidden in the same position, when your 1st hit drops, anyone near will take cover and look for your signature, you will be forced to move to the next cover, then shoot again.

A single motivated individual with a .22 rifle and quiet ammo can strike fear into the hearts of a whole city and never have to shoot anyone . Just drive around to the electrical substations and distribution sites and shoot out the inline fuses , insulators and transformers . No power , no lights , no water , no sewer , no heat .

Ok, That´s a big yes. BUT quite a shooter !

The barrel must be laminated, I've tried with just two layers(glued the smallest and inserted into the biggest) Thank God I rigged it for remotely trigged testfiring before I tested self-handed,
After this accident, I took a copper-plate and carved the linings precisely to make the projectile spin around its own centre of gravity, providing a stabile, straight course, and folded the carved copperplate around a steel-rod. Then I coated the coppertube with epoxy, and carefully wrapped a single sheet of glassfiber-net around my "barrel" and slide it into another thin-walled steelpipe. After hardening, I coated the steelpipe with another layer of "marine-epoxy" and wrapped a double sheet of aluminium-netting, soaking it once more in the epoxy, and slide it into a desired barrel-designed pipe. I always use this procedure with barrels, whatever the caliber is.- the last accident scared the shit out of me!

Sorry beethoven but what are you talking about ? Wrong topic, maybe ???

Oh you mean something like this?

http://hosting.skadi.net/feebullet/priceless.JPG

Oh semi autos, Silencers and probably the eureka flag are illegal in this country...

Oh you mean something like this?

http://hosting.skadi.net/feebullet/priceless.JPG

Oh semi autos, Silencers and probably the eureka flag are illegal in this country...

Oh you mean something like this?

http://hosting.skadi.net/feebullet/priceless.JPG

Oh semi autos, Silencers and probably the eureka flag are illegal in this country...