Talk:Tenken (3.5e Class)

So someone could take a 1-level dip in this to gain +10 to balance, tumble, and jump? :-\ -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.169.236.139 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

I guess, theoretically, you could. I was considering changing it so that he only gains the bonuses when he is unarmored an unencumbered, but the whole class seems to hinge on that as it is. Do you think it should be changed, or is it OK as it is? - TG Cid 11:09, 24 June 2009 (MDT)

Why give it in the first place? Why not simply have those as class skills, and expect people to invest ranks in them rather than simply giving huge bonuses for free? Also, where does the damage for this class come from? Couldn't you just go Swordsage and get basically the same thing? Daredevil could be gotten earlier with the Up the Walls psionic feat if people wanted that ability, Superior Finesse is similar to the Shadow Blade feat (add dex to damage on top of str with shadow hand weapons) and Swordsages can move so incredibly fast that it seems as though they teleport (the Shadow Jaunt series). Furthermore , Swordsages have synergy with Iaijutsu Focus in the form of Ghost Blade, Death From Above, and Sapphire Nightmare Blade strikes, which make an enemy flatfooted. I just don't see Tenkens having a niche that Swordsages can't already fulfill... :-\ 76.169.236.139 04:29, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

To be fair, the niche seems ideally like a combination of all those things rolled into one package. The reason for the bonuses is because normally a character can only have a maximum amount of ranks in a particular skill equal to their character level +3 (see SRD:Skills Summary). The Acrobatics feature overrides that and allows you you have unparalleled agility. Up The Walls is a psionic feat, which means you have to take at least one level is a psionics-based class in order to use it; Daredevil is an alternative to that, and because it's not a psionic ability it cannot be disabled in a power-suppressing area like Up The Walls could be. The Swordsage comparison is valid, but the tenken does not incorporate the variant rules system (stances, maneuvers, Iaijutsu Focus, etc.) presented in the Book of Nine Swords (a system that I personally dislike because I feel that choosing maneuvers that are supernatural abilities is reducing the martial classes down to almost spellcasters). I think that the idea of someone moving so quickly that it's like teleportation is terribly overused in homebrew D&D, and that the monk's presentation of fast movement is more balanced but somehow less trite. As for the attacks that make an enemy flat-footed, denying the Dex bonus to AC is good and all, but only particularly useful if you have some sneak attack damage to back it up (at least in my opinion). In addition, the swordsage has seven dead levels. I'm not totally being fair to it because it gains additional maneuvers, etc., but the fact remains that the tenken essentially has no dead levels (although I will admit that the levels with just a bonus feat might be cutting it close). To most of the homebrewers that I know of, dead levels are considered a bad thing, so perhaps they will see it (the tenken, I mean) as an alternative to playing a swordsage. - TG Cid 06:27, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

Edit: As for where damage comes from, shukuchi allows the tenken to lay down five attacks per turn at higher levels, most of which (with maximum BAB) have a decent chance to hit. When combined with the haste effect, which gives them another attack at full BAB, the tenken can bring the pain, especially when his critical modifier is extended by Life on the Edge. Additionally, thanks to Superior Finesse, Dexterity is the only stat the tenken needs to increase to maximize has attack capabilities. Not to mention Astra at level 19, which combines all the previous abilities for a whopping 12 attacks at once. If you have a vorpal sword, chances are your opponent is doomed. Hope that helps. - TG Cid 07:12, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the multiple attacks with low minuses at the start and the haste ability make it awesome —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.224.255.16 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Personally I really only see one flaw in this class, and that is that you were trying to promote sword usage, but there are not many abilities that hinge upon this, to me it seems I could play a Tenken with an axe and it would bbe close to the same. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JohnnyCakes (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

To be fair, the original idea was for a swordsman (the class is something of a tribute to Rurouni Kenshin, after all), but it's intentionally ambiguous in order to allow variation. True, the examples all use swords, but the class features (correct me if there is a discrepancy) usually say "a single melee slashing weapon" in most relevant cases. So yeah, an axe tenken is fine; I was just trying to be consistent with my examples. - TG Cid 18:25, 26 July 2009 (MDT)

Shinsoke

Awesome! At level 20 a Tenken is always hasted with a base speed (30+70)+30= 130ft. Can make an additional attack with haste and Shukuchi as a full round action for a +20/+20/+20/+20/+15/+10/+5. Add in his critical threat range, 50% miss chance, and dexterious Armor Class and you have one beasty dude. (I just pee'd my pants alittle.) --Jay Freedman 12:50, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

I'm glad that you like it. A rating would be appreciated. - TG Cid 18:56, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it might be a little overpowered. I very much enjoy all the abilities this class gives. (Especially before level 10.) Its always nice to be a bad ass in no armor. However I think this means your going to have alot of money to spend on other things while your team members fork over the cash for magic armors. Plus, its been done before. You also gain miss chances on top of your Armor Class bonuses when you move. I want to compare this class with a monk, but I'm afraid the monk would just get hammered against this class. I want to say your role in combat is Striker but your ability to avoid damage is pretty high. Maybe a d6 hit die or a rough penalty for not following a moral code is needed. Anyway, its your class and I think its freakin' awesome. --Jay Freedman 19:32, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

The monk is a bad class and nearly any other class would "hammer" it (even the Adept, an NPC class, is noted as better than the monk in study). The striker point; a striker is not meant to take damage, he is meant to avoid damage, as you noted. So the class would fit the striker niche very well. Magic armour, especially compared to Magic Weapons, are relatively cheap at each level of the game. AC isn't a very good way of measuring power though because AC doesn't scale well to BAB. If the class gives a miss chance, then it is doing something right. I'll comment more when I've read the class. --TK-Squared 20:28, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

Uh, so I should have given it a 5/5? Dude, get your own rating. (This one is mine! Muhahahahaha!) jk.

Oh, no; I quite agree that it around a 4/5. It's a decent class, but it's not perfect. I've read over it and, it is a good rating. (All your ratings belong to us) --TK-Squared 21:17, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because its wordy as hell. Lots of foreign words for me, a stupid American with a 4th grade reading level. There is lots of stuff to read and even more to keep track of on a table. I had to read the abilities more than once to understand their meaning and apply them in my head. If your a pro at Dnd this stuff makes sense instantly. If your new then this class can read very slowly and intimidating. (Spelling was good though.) --Jay Freedman 19:32, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

I'll admit that I'm kind of an English freak, so any complex words are probably a result of my own need to make it look good for myself. The foriegn words are mostly for flavor; they seem to have a better ring than "Fast", "Faster", "Very fast", "Super fast," etc. - TG Cid 21:22, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because he uses the preload, links his stuff, keeps up his talk page, and has a bad ass picture. I might be oversimplifying this, but whatever. Nothing strikes me as superior about the formatting. --Jay Freedman 19:32, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

I don't think the author's talk page has anything to do with the Formatting rating on a class. - TG Cid 21:22, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because its been done before. He wears no armor but still has a bad ass AC. Uses flurry-like attacks to increase damage. I thought the monk was the exception not the rule. Running on walls is awesome. Nothing negative there. The weird foriegn names are strange. They just confuse me but do give it a trendy asian feel. The picture is cool but the dude is wearing metal pads. His combat prowess is what makes him fun. Not his flavor, playstyle, fashion sense, or drowisms. --Jay Freedman 19:32, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

Rethought it alittle after reading the rating section again. --Jay Freedman 19:46, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

The picture might not be totally representative of the class, but I never really considered metal pads to be defined necessarily as armor. He could still be considered unarmored with light clothing and some padding (padded armor, is, as far as I can tell, almost a full body suit). - TG Cid 21:22, 9 August 2009 (MDT)

Crit range threat

Sorry about that, thought the IP was some random user trying to vandalize the class. --Ghostwheel 10:34, 19 August 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because its definitely overpowered and could use a tad bit of nurfing --209.33.219.129 17:42, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it was very well explained and worded. i found no problem understanding the characteristics of this class --209.33.219.129 17:42, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it follows the D&D criteria to the t. it has a great description, list of well described skills and abilities, a sample Tenken and everything else one could ask for in a homebrew class --209.33.219.129 17:42, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the idea behind the tenken is pretty original, like mixing an Iaijutsu master, a Monk and a Weapons master. i have found this class very open ended and fun in a few campaigns --209.33.219.129 17:42, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because this class shows power through speed —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foustus (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because everything is clear and easy to understand —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foustus (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because everything seems to be in order and properly proportioned —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foustus (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Flavor - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I like that speed and precision can be this amazing —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Foustus (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because if anything, this class is massively overpowered. I'd suggest removing the extra feats, as it already gets numerous ones throughout its progression keeping the attack penalty on shukuchi, balancing the extra attacks with a reasonable BAB penalty and removing unbounded, meaning the class still has something in the way of a weakness, keeping it commensurate with other classes. Compare it with the "Duelist" prestiege class for a class that operates in a similar manner to get an idea of strength comparisons.

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording provides a distinct exotic, asian influenced flair, while explaining what it is the character does and is supposed to be. Formatting 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the formatting is well done, looking as though it'd be right at home within any of the D&D official books.

Flavor - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because while not a new idea, this class tries to do an old concept in new ways, by making a fast, agile fighter that depends on speed instead of power, but also focuses on some of the non-combat ideas of this (running on walls, faster movement, etc.) The asian influence on it, while I'm personally not wild about, still fits well. The only suggestion for improvement in this section would be some sort of martial/moral code added, even if it's simply exercises these characters have to undertake in order to keep up their incredible speed. This would further flesh out the character as well as adding something in the way of limitations for a overpowered character class.

Rating

Power - 0.5/5 I give this class a 0.5 out of 5 because the only things balanced about this class are the saving throws. I've played in a campaign with this class before; there was no point in anyone else playing because the character was nigh untouchable and dealt a ridiculous amount of damage. The character was capable of soloing creatures that the rest of the party were unable to so much as scratch. It was NOT fun to be a part of. I believe that this class should only be used by players who want to "win" at the cost of everything and everyone else, and should only be allowed by DM's in campaigns where game balance is not a priority or even on the radar. I do not believe the class can be "fixed" without gutting it, which is unlikely to stand since many people seem so excited about it and would, from what I have read, likely kill any changes that would balance the class. --Druindo (talk) 16:35, 24 March 2013 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it was easy enough to read and understand. --Druindo (talk) 16:35, 24 March 2013 (MDT)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I could follow the layout about as easily as from a book. --Druindo (talk) 16:35, 24 March 2013 (MDT)

Flavor - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the flavor for this class was well done and I can understand the concept of the class quite well. --Druindo (talk) 16:35, 24 March 2013 (MDT)

I think this class is an awesome concept, but is too unbalanced for use in 99% of campaigns without significant work.

I agree whole heartedly with your comment about power. If no one views it as a good thing to tackle the OP that this class is I might give it a go after I take a good once over on the overlord class.. Tivanir (talk) 20:50, 26 March 2013 (MDT)

I do not agree much on assessment of this class as a more or less absolute power (albeit it needs some minor tweaking). I believe it is fundamentally flawed in that any spellcaster progressing at a decent rate can outright disable or destroy a member of this class provided they go for less of a "kill him through hit points" style and more of a "kill him with debuffs" style; even a 1st level Wizard can cast a Sleep spell (if the Tenken fails, he dies courtesy of a coup de grace later), cast a Color Spray spell (just all around bad news for anything below 5 HD, especially things below 3 HD, which is most any regular PC at 1st level), or Charm Person (the Tenken now likes the Wizard who he previously wished to kill). As things go on, a 5th level Wizard can cast Stinking Cloud, Deep Slumber (even more powerful Sleep spell, because why not?), Ray of Exhaustion, or Slow, among all the other spells he could cast from lower levels. This is not even trying to be creative, but a Tenken, even at higher levels, can be outright nullified by a clever spellcaster or a few spell savvy NPCs.

While this isn't my personal project, having heavily researched the radical differences in power (Fighter or Monk's overall patheticness when compared to a Wizard, Cleric, or Druid), a Tenken is a high Tier 3 class. It excels very well at what it does, but retains distinct weaknesses (it lacks actual spell casting notably anti-caster spells like Anti-Magic Field, Dispel and Fly, or progression of previous spellcaster levels), and has easily countered features. Some however need reworking (Unbounded notably is permanent, instead of a daily, which would be perfectly reasonable). Continued, the Tenken does not have anything to survive "Save or Suck" or "Save or Die" (bad Will saves for starters, and no extremely powerful effects until 14th or so level, but his decent Wisdom score (which he should have) will mitigate that a bit), namely anything that would kill his Strength score (as he's a Dexterity class) outright can kill him with little effort.

Overall, the class needs minor tuning and players need keep in mind a Tenken as a Tier 3 will radically outshine most non-casters because of that. I do not believe it is fundamentally broken or overpowered beyond functionality. Any DM approving a Tenken then should keep in mind its strengths and weaknesses, and counter them as appropriate.

--Argent Fatalis (talk) 01:35, 27 March 2013 (MDT)

I am well aware of the melee vs magic argument but there is a major difference - magic has limited uses per day. This on the other hand will have +20x4 / +15 / +10 / +5 with any weapon they use due to the haste. His AC will be nigh untouchable, his movement ensures he closes with any spell caster in a single melee (add in +20 and taking ten on tumble and he will never receive an attack of opportunity - ever.) This isn't even getting into the evasion ability, the ability to negate damage through reflex, concealment (which works against any touch attack spell) a free range increase on the damage that stacks with improved critical (which keen does not so the justification for that will be fun to read.) And at 20 he can negate 3 spells easily with the master ability, providing him more than ample time to ensure all the casters die. How the hell does this come off as even remotely balanced against the core mechanics of the SRD or any of the books? Its a grab bag of special abilities to try to create a blender that cannot die. That still doesn't even address a few of my major concerns on the needs balance template. Tivanir (talk) 13:48, 27 March 2013 (MDT)

Oh I also forgot he gets about 8 bonus feats total (so if you count them up he gets 3 less than a straight SRD fighter) Tivanir (talk) 16:01, 27 March 2013 (MDT)

Because people need hard data to make informed decisions I did the following. I made 2 level 20 characters one a straight fighter and the other is this broken thing. This is the baseline for the stats I used: 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 and the end result before I added anything into the mix was the following. The fighter winds up with an average of 140hp, (14 con the 16 went to str and I assumed +4 of the +5 went to that with an additional +1 to dex) an AC of 12 and an attack line of +25/+20/+15/+10. The tenken came out as 120hp (average out and some con as the fighter) 22AC which cover FF and touch (dex20 +5 wis14 +2 class+4 perma haste +1) and his attack line was +26/+26/+26/+26/+21/+16/+11. also as this character doesn't need to buy armor or a shield (since it actually drops his abilities significantly and make them less effective) he will essentially have 200k above what the fighter will have. With optimized equipment I got the fighter to 32 AC and the tenken to 40 all around, and spent 61k LESS on the tenken. And that 61k less was after I also dropped a cloak of resist +5 just to buff his saving throws more to ensure he won't die against an instant kill mage spell, bringing his weakest save to 15. Now it might just be me but when a sword and board fighter (aka someone who cannot use two weapons or a two handed weapon) can't catch up to this monstrous thing that you can use two weapons or a weapon two handed on AC wise it is not balanced. Monks can be difficult to hit but they won't deal the damage this thing does they don't get 8 free feats, they don't get the ability to stop sneak attacks, they don't get freedom of movement and they sure as hell don't get massive bonuses to skills and the ability to run on walls. The only reason to even possibly try to say this is balanced is because you want to use it to run all over your DM. The hexblade that is essentially magic immune is less broken than this thing, since in a single turn you can move 130ft anywhere you want to make sure the caster can't cast, you can take a weapon with reach to ensure you threaten him, and you can make 2 full attacks the next round with a DC20 fort save. Tivanir (talk) 16:36, 27 March 2013 (MDT)

Example 2 (better comparison) tenken vs balor: While you might expect a 1v1 match to instantly go to the CR20 creature that really isn't the case here as long as you assume the following for the level 20 Tenken. Cloak of resistance +5, Gloves of Dex +6, Bracers of Armor +8, ring of force shield (+2 AC), periapt of wisdom +6, vest of constitution +6, ring of prot +5, girdle of divine favor (+3 hit and damage), robe of heavy fortification (no ac on robe but 100% crit reduction), jovar +5 holy axiomatic thundering (2d6 18-20 x2 crit weapon). Important note this all falls under the 760k (approximately 500k give or take 25k) expected to be earned by the time you hit level 20 as part of a 4 man team, which you don't need with this class. Ok using the previous stat line I can get my AC to 44 (balor has a +31 to hit with a full round attack needing a 13 or better to hit with his BEST attack) though vorpal might even the fight out IF he can manage a 20 before you decimate him. The lowest save of the tenken is 16 and the best is 25 giving him exceptional saves throughout. now I know people will reference implosion but I can substitute reflex for that at 20 and rolling a 1 isn't hard. So freedom of movement up to the big nasty and proceed for first round. Assuming no natural 20s I will live through the first round and roll +36/+36/+36/+36/+31/+26/+21 and I will do that twice with the special ability. The weapon will inflict 6d6 (8d6 on 12-20 as currently written +d8) plus 20 (40 on crit) and with an AC of 35 I will most likely hit with everything except the last one so 12 hits in one round with an average damage of 39. taking in damage reduction of 15 for each strike drops me to 24, so a total of 288hp vs 290 the balors average. This does NOT include any criticals on my part. When a class can solo a Balor in one turn reliably it is broken. Tivanir (talk) 17:46, 27 March 2013 (MDT)

An aside on example 2 I messed up on the tenken abilities he actually would have an additional +1 to hit, +1AC and +1 to reflex from perma haste, making it easier to kill a CR20 creature for a single level 20. Tivanir (talk) 18:21, 27 March 2013 (MDT)

His onslaught of attacks are not equipped most notably with a Pounce for a full-attack at the end of his inevitable charge; meaning he's not going to get that flurry off by the time he reaches the caster or most dangerous target. He will certainly hurt at the end of that incredibly long distance charge, but not nearly as much as a Barbarian Ubercharger hybrid multiclass (again, a Tenken still hits like a freight train undeniably, but not quite that level). Spellcasters get Fly at 5th level, meaning a Tenken is still pretty far off from any potential he has; again, I do not deny he is an absolutely brutal threat up close, but without an ally casting Fly on him (or dedicated to buffing him), he's a sitting duck, and even if he does manage to Fly a Antimagic Field, . No spellcaster with a dedicated goal of killing the party is going to take on anything worse than a Fighter or Monk without some preparation; at level 20 he can negate 3 spells which have saves, meaning if the spells lack saves (Wish, Miracle, Blasphemy, etc) they can still absolutely destroy him, provided the DM allows effects such as instantaneous kills. Some classes never were balanced to begin with, the most notable offenders being the Artificer ("I can make anything!" and "I can EXP and gold cheese."), the Wizard (offenses too numerable to list), the Cleric ("God says 'no'."), and the Druid ("reshaping the entire world because I felt like it."). By comparison, a Tenken does not stack up versus any of these, and any one of them can kill him well before he even knew he was under attack (Love's Pain nuke as a cheaty example).

A SRD Fighter is possibly one of the worst classes to balance from. If anything the Tome of Battle melee classes (Crusader, Swordsage, Warblade are all very well done, with the Warblade being more of "what a Fighter should have been", barring Iron Heart Surge's absurdity if RAW) are the best semblance of balance for their lot, but that's still not enough against a dedicated and competent spellcaster.

Again, even the best Sword and Board Fighter can't stand toe to toe with other tanking classes for anything (the notables being the Knight and the Crusader, the latter more so in some facets), let alone much of anything, even if pushed to the limit. The fact that the Celerity, Time Stop and Contingency spells exist at all make any idea that a non-caster is going first a bit hard to believe, and again, assuming someone goes full board with a Tenken (which the undoubtedly would), the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, what-have-you, is going to be one or more steps ahead if played well.

A Balor one on one at 20 has great potential to do harm, especially as this is a 1v1 scenario; I don't foresee a Tenken making a 90ft vertical leap, well, really ever without someone really going out of their way to do that (a regular 8ft vertical leap is DC 32 with a running start, 64 without, so even with his 100+ movement speed, his DC is extremely high, and that's assuming the Balor is only flying at 90ft above the ground). Continued, a Balor won't be alone, as he'll use his Summon Demon to bring some friends (even another Balor) into the fight (sure, they likely won't do much, but they're a distraction), and he has a permanent True Seeing spell, making the effect of his Displacement (or Blur) passives non-existent. All while finding himself able to sit back and cast his Spell-Like Abilities without too much worry.

I am not trying to argue a Tenken is "perfectly balanced" or "what is normal for a PC", what I am simply saying is that the perspective is skewed. Yes, a Tenken can put out absurd physical melee DPS, yes he can run on walls at incredible speed, yes he can dodge most any melee attack, and yes he saves tons of gold. I do not at all advise anyone use this class in a game as is, unless the DM is greatly experienced (to the point he knows most hard counters without much research), your group is just messing around and using homebrew for the hell of it, or if all other party members (and the campaign) are extremely high powered. The class absolutely needs fine tuning, but completely redesigning it? No, not at all. The permanent Freedom of Movement is the largest offender I note, alongside his average AC being a bit too high (bonus AC through levels being removed should make a palatable dent) and removal of Bonus Feats (or placing an extensive restriction on them).

--Argent Fatalis (talk) 07:42, 28 March 2013 (MDT)

If the goal is to turn this into a RoW addition by all means slap a symbol on it to let people know it isn't balanced with regular DnD and we can move on. The problem is that even with all those abilities this class still has more than an even chance against anything unless he is specifically targeted from the word go. Also some of the things you bring up are non factors. 1 If the guy is flying unless you are in a totally barren area with absolutely nothing you can charge grapple your opponent easily (130ft starting movement + any sort of height +20 + ranks = you are flying through the air with the greatest of ease, and he counts it all as normal movement) Same with the Balor. Wish doesn't negate saving throws, wish duplicates another spell so you would use its information including saving throw. You still won't produce any base class melee ANYWHERE in the entire 3.5 setting that isn't homebrewed that will come anywhere in the vicinity of this character for damage, AC, hitability, hit bonus. No corporeal thing can touch him, no touch attack will ever land and you are hard to hit for something that is suppose to be a challenge for a party of 4. The only way your scenerio works to say that he isn't overpowered is if someone gets the drop on him. News flash a surprise round can decimate anyone, unless you specifically have abilities up all the time or with huge durations. Besides with the 260k left if I was part of a party of 4 (and as this character I would just solo everything why split money when I won't have to.) As for time stop the target is not able to be hurt by you for the same amount of time it gives you. Yea you can use it as an "oh shit I need to buff" spell which if he knows what he is fighting will more likely be a teleport time spell. And with time stop congratulations you now only have 2 level 9 spells and one more I need to use my substitution on. Unless you are talking an instant kill spell (death ward is cheap and true seeing will negate the other half and isn't out of my price option) exactly how are you going to kill me with a 26 reflex save before you run out of spells or I figure out a way to get to you? Name any spell that will supposedly end this fight in your favor (just 7, 8 and 9 anything else is pretty much worthless) and I will show you a better than even chance that I can defeat it and wreck your world. Tivanir (talk) 11:28, 28 March 2013 (MDT)

Oh one more note even with true seeing and death ward I can still pull a command word SR32 magic item out which will put me within a few k of the 760k cap. That means SR32 High high save, immunity to most death effects and damage that isn't approachable by ANY other DnD non homebrew class. And the command word SR32 will last 20 minutes per cast and only costs 180k. So the only spell not already covered (implosion really since it is instant kill, non target roll, non death) means first you need a 12 on a d20 (8 if you took all the feats which as a cleric makes me scratch my head) then I get a massive save so I will save. In theory you could try it two more times if you haven't died or been disrupted on your full round concentration but lets face it after the first one he can either retreat and wait or he will end you. 65 feet isn't exactly a game changer. Tivanir (talk) 12:40, 28 March 2013 (MDT)

Tivanir, your examples are really inept and do more to show the problem with the fighter and your incomplete knowledge of system mastery than any concern with this class. For the balor fight, the balor can simply summon another balor or marilith in the first round, and assuming they survive that first round, proceed to dazelock the tenken with blasphemy while the other destroys him. Holy is not a top tier enchantment option and it seems you've only included it for meta purposes so you can ignore the balor's DR, which otherwise bones the tenken pretty bad because he relies on attack spam. Even with that considered, a balor playing it safe would teleport straight into the air, summon his fiendish brethren, and then slowly descend to engage when he's ready. Using winged boots or the like allows you to ascend at half of your 60' fly speed. The tenken cannot touch the balor if the demon plays it right. The only way the tenken has a chance is if he gets a surprise round and uses Astra from a charge into a full attack, and even then there's a good chance the damage won't be enough. The balor destroys the tenken, all day every day. The balor is incredibly strong (some might say over-powered, but a wizard could take it). The tenken is middle ground. It's not better than a warblade or crusader, or other classes that are considered to be at a middle level of balance. The monk and the fighter are weak (no one who understands system mastery takes more than two levels of fighter, and no one should really take more than two levels of monk). Using them as your baseline comparison is nonplussing because the monk and fighter aren't balanced with the cleric and wizard. You can't ignore a lack of internal balance when it suits you and call it out when it does not. -- Jota (talk) 12:17, 30 March 2013 (MDT)

actually my knowledge is pretty thorough so please don't speak to it. As for trying the whole teleport up ok fine he is out of range I guess I will just be forced to run 700+ feet to an area small enough he can't (aren't enclosed rooms fun?) further if you have ever read the fiendish codex the summoning of others is a last resort for devils, particularly because then they owe the other demon. Lets go ahead with other examples of easy counters for the Balor 1 anti magic field cast on a dagger you toss first round. It hoses him a hell of a lot more than you. A wizard "can take it" is also assuming the Balor does terrible on his saving throw and also doesn't use any of his abilities. Simple damage could stop the wizard from being able to do anything (um hello teleport attack and 10 foot reach = wizard is done.) further unless the wizard gets exceptionally lucky with an instant kill there are no high level spells that will bone the Balor. Touch AC is high (not as high as the tenkens but still high enough you probably need 18-20 for energy drain.) the point of my above information was to provide an average. An average class should not be able to deal average damage and slaughter a Balor in the first round. Further unless the Balor specifically knows its a tenken why the hell would it teleport? And right after the first round it wouldn't get the option to assuming I roll a single 12 on all those attacks stated above? Also unlike the war blade with maneuvers and limits you gave this guy a buffet of abilities that work together and stack to the point it is ridiculous. As a side not i haven't seen the ToB nine swords but I will probably pick up the PDF. Again a fighter (generic any Melee toe to toe tanking class) isn't designed for super high output because eventually casters do run out of spells. The trade off for your lower damage is the fact you can quite seriously do it all day long. Tivanir (talk) 14:13, 30 March 2013 (MDT)

Running away like a pansy doesn't win encounters. Plus they could simply teleport after you. So you can turtle in an enclosed space, no one cares, least of all the balor. He could use telekinesis and try to collapse it around you or snipe you or whatever. Antimagic field is localized to the object, so the balor simply throws it away, problem solved. He also still has DR and your ability to defeat it without your magic weapons goes out the window, so it could be advantageous for him. You cannot cast spells on him while he holds it. On other topics, one cannot teleport and attack in the same turn. Both require a standard action.

Wizards usually have contingency for these types of things anyway. You have things like moment of prescience and time stop to ensure you survive long enough for the balor to make one bad roll and then good game. No spells? I must have missed the part where balor's were immune to death effects. Or there's a couple SR: No spells that would do it. I cannot recall them off the top of my head since I don't usually play a wizard of splatbook dive, but they do exist. One quickened and one maximized shivering touch would do it. Not sure how it interacts with quickening since there's a touch component, so maybe not the best example, but it's one of many. Finger of death, dominate monster, imprisonment, baleful polymorph, feeblemind. Beating an SR 28 isn't that difficult. With Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration you succeed on 4. Otherwise on an 8. That's 65% of the time you win in one round.

The entire point of maneuvers is to combine them to do things that show synergy. As for other characters not dealing that kind of damage, here are some counterpoints (1, 2, []). As for the counterpoint about all day versus 15 minute work day, it is not valid if you won't survive to spam attacks. The trade off stupid and unbalanced. -- Jota (talk) 15:43, 30 March 2013 (MDT)

funny thing about sr is they still need to fail the save. Actually hanging onto the anti magic field would make him live longer but he would probably still chuck it since he is used to having his own abilities. Anyways with his massive saves the average Balor needs 3s to 7s (depending on how well you munchkin your character) to save unless you pull one of the munchkin optimized sets that up your saves which will impact your ability to negate spell resistance. 90% of the instant death spells are fort based unless you want to waste a wish or miracle the others aren't high enough to worry about. Further my build wasn't munchkin sized since I didn't even include a single feat into the build, so if you want me to show just how broken it is I Can go optimize the 9 feats it gets as well. If the encounter goes on in an enclosed space there still isn't much a mage can do against the Balor, and if we are going on the same assumption that he knows what the character is he just uses unholy aura and smacks you with a dispel to takeoff contigency or the fact contingency is only up to 6th level at 20 would limit your actual responses. With the combinations people will pull off to munchkin a character anything can be unbalanced in groups, however this manages to do it all on its own. Keep I mind all of my numbers take into the account that i took 15 off per attack and didnt average in criticals. If you want me to give you a rough estimate it would inflict on average 330 a round assuming your lowest doesnt connect and that is before feats and as a straight 1-20 class. And maneuvers are good because they are expendable and limited, and they make you better without breaking everything. They also assume other things like +5 tomes and such that I didn't figure in because I try to stick to the dm "average" on 135 of the dmg.Tivanir (talk) 18:48, 30 March 2013 (MDT)

also your examples aren't very good the first one is written wrong and needs you to talk your dm into allowing you to be broken. The other two with multiple prestige classes allow you to do damage on par with this build, without this build being munchkined out (I didn't cheese on stats assumptions or feats) and at a minimum I could bring it up to the mounted charger which would be able to only hit once on his charge (since you need to only take a 5 foot step to perform a full attack per SRD.) if you want me to cheese and assume max damage I can do that but I guarantee that won't help the case since his damage output will be well over 500 per round and double that on Astra round (and since you can use it once per encounter why wouldn't you lead with it?) for example shock troop, unstoppable charge, power attack all do not require a mount so could be used for this build as well. With the munchkin I can easily take a 20 reduction to AC and still have a fairly high survivability with a 2:1 trade off for 20 AC (40 damage x3 for the charge) plus all the other stuff I could stick on just to make it beefier. Unlike the lance example on a crit of 12-20 that means that the creature in question would take 240 + 8d6 + d8 + the original bonus of 34 (17 doubled no feats) means that without looking hard you can charge one shot a Balor by just massively overcoming his damage reduction. And you do it with a single to 20 base class instead of a munchkin variant of 4+ separate classes. Tivanir (talk) 23:01, 30 March 2013 (MDT)

One more time with feeling

This thing is overpowered. Period. Dot. This is on par with munchkin optimized classes that have 5 separate classes / prestige classes. Further it is on par with RoW for abilities (and if you are using that by all means this works fine) however since this thing outclasses the crusader, war blade and sword sage by SEVERAL leagues it either needs to be balanced for 3.5e regular or needs a disclaimer. Otherwise you are just trying to sneak this past people until they realize they handed you something ridiculous and weed you out with something ridiculous. Tivanir (talk) 14:19, 11 April 2013 (MDT)

as a side note go through the ratings and show me ones with actual throughout statements not an - I LIKE THIS - tag and almost unanimously they are not 5s with everyone rating it down for being overpowered. So going off ratings like 5/5 this is freaking epic - is completely useless. Unless it details why they think it is a good class it isn't a good rating and I bet they say its a great class because of exactly what I have stated - it is overpowered and they want to feel superman like with a class that goes off the deep need in the power rating for Melee. Tivanir (talk) 14:24, 11 April 2013 (MDT)

Is this supposed to be for RoW? If so we could add the Design Disclaimer tag... Marasmusine (talk) 14:29, 11 April 2013 (MDT)

I asked that when I first came across this class. The answer is no. this is a TGC build (they tend to be very overpowered) and somehow they are trying to do a strawman vote to try to do an end run around the reality. There is no base class in DnD, anywhere, in the Melee realm that can match it. To even come close you need a munchkin character (who normally couldn't have survived to that level because they would have been worthless until 13-14th level) in order to come close to the magnitude this character delivers. It isn't balanced wasn't balanced and they aren't going to change it so there needs to be a note that DMs can reference to make sure they take a good hard look before allowing it into their campaigns. If you want I will happily build a DM warning template specifically for classes like this (also champion of feline comes to mind - it has its own issues which I have been documenting) and if they want to remove it there needs to be a clear cut example of exactly why I am wrong (with references and non home brew.) Tivanir (talk) 15:16, 11 April 2013 (MDT)

RockJockey's Input

I am in agreement with Tivanir that this class is overpowered three ways to Sunday. Since the original author's design does not conform to 3.5 DnD standards, it was marked with a warning for DMs about allowing this class into their games. This puts the class in an awkward situation where most DMs would not allow this class unless everyone else in the party had similar classes and the monsters were abnormally strong. And in situations where the DM allows this class unknowingly, he has let an overpowered class into the game that can easily invalidate the rest of the party. In all scenarios, no one is having fun, not the Tenken player, not the DM and not the rest of the Player Characters.

The solution to this is to nerf the class (obviously), but also, what exactly is this class suppose to be? Is it a weaboo uberfighter who can go super saiyan and kill everything that moves before it can react? This completely takes all the tension out of all fights if you always win, if there is no chance of losing. How can we make this class stand out against other iconic base classes such as Fighter or Barbarian?

I'm gonna try my hand at tackling this mess of a class. RockJockey