Talk:Ninja (3.5e Class)

Rating

Before I type this, let me say that I'm a fan of Naruto, however...

0 of 5. Don't try to turn Dungeons and Dragons into Naruto. Seriously. A real ninja is nothing like what ninjas are in Naruto. They wear all black, use swords, and MURDER PEOPLE. They are not "protectors of the village". They're assassins, plain and simple. They do not take exams. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.135.81.203 (talk • contribs) 20:02, 1 June 2009 (UTC). Please sign your posts.

Guess what? Noone cares. There is some actual historical precedent for ninjas to defend the common man and all that... but who CARES? If that's what he wants his ninja class to be, that's what it's going to be, and you shouldn't rate it down just because you wouldn't use the flavor in your games. Dragon Child 14:30, 1 June 2009 (MDT)

This is common hyperbole of the time. Guess what? Samurai didn't really go around cutting up anything and everything with their katana; which cannot cut through tanks. Ninjas never wore "all black". Someone wearing all black is pretty suspicious. Normally, they wore what EVERYONE ELSE WAS WEARING! They're masters of espionage, not "hey, i'm in black"... iage. Used swords? Sure, a bit. They mostly relied on things like smoke bombs, gun powder and martial arts, actually. Anything that could cause distractions or subdue someone silently. Don't even mention a ninjato; they're purely speculative. They sure used Shurikens, though. Which also involves Kunai! The most used weapon of ninjas, however, were the ones that could easily be disguised as farming implements, like the Kama. They may also have had exams! --TK-Squared 14:42, 1 June 2009 (MDT)

So... why not just play a swordsage? Or a multiclass swordsage/psywar if you want to add an "energy pool" type of deal? I mean, just look at Shadow Jaunt for a short-ranged teleport, Leaping Dragon Stance for the crazy jumps Naruto characters make, Cloak of Deception for a sort of Genjutsu ability, and the multitude of strikes for Taijutsu. Things like Burning Blade and Shadow Garrote can easily be Ninjutsu. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.169.236.139 (talk • contribs) 09:27, 25 June 2009 (UTC). Please sign your posts.

Because a lot of people don't like Tome of Battle, and playing a class whose name is one thing and just calling it something else makes me and a lot of other people sad. So people invest brainsweat into trying to successfully convert Naruto (and sundry other anime) into DnD. I'd be interested if someone managed to convert a lot of Naruto concepts into DnD terms. Heck, look at my Gentle Monk PrC--that was me messing around with the Hyuuga clan fighting style. But saying someone should be happy with mashing together two entirely different resource management schemes and just calling it a ninja? That's just unsatisfying. --Genowhirl 12:10, 26 June 2009 (MDT)

You guys all realize that there is already a Ninja class? Its in the Complete Adventurer 3.5. Look it up. It could help you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Rogue The Demonchild (talk • contribs) 08:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC). Please sign your posts.

Ninjas became thought to wear black because of at-the-time Chinese theater. Normally, stage hands wore all black, and so people had come to simply ignore them, which made it all the more surprising when somebody you were ignoring came out of nowhere and killed someone. --Saposhiente 15:28, 14 November 2010 (MST)

Originaly, the Ninja were samurai, but, due to the ever evolving nature of warfare, some samurai adapted themselves and their weapons to serve as infiltrator types. At first, the change was just barely noticable, These Ninja were still Lords and held to a knightly code of conduct.

The "Ninja" that we are used to are a pruduct of Chinese bandit culture, which added poison use, even more clandestine weapondry, and started the practise of "kuji" the hand signs that we see so much in productions like 'Naruto'.--Raweno 14:45, 30 January 2012 (MST)

Role-Playing Class Abilities

These are bad. Stick with mechanical bits. Maybe have flavor of "level X ninjas are usually genins/chuunins/jounins whatever" but don't have part of the class be taking part in RP activities such as the chuunin exam. What about campaigns that are not part of the Naruto universe, or where the party goes planehopping for extended periods of time? Or if there is no academy, if the ninja developed these techniques for him/herself? Just say no to RP-related class abilities for the sake of making your class more universal so people can use it in any campaign, not just ones you're in.

Also, forget about "D-rank missions", etc. These are also RP-related, and the mechanical bits should be kept apart from these. -- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.169.236.139 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

I know, right? Not everyone wants to be the D&D embodiment of Naruto... Here I was hoping to use a "stealthy" class that isn't a rogue or bard. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.36.145.150 (talk • contribs) 05:15, 13 July 2009 (UTC). Please sign your posts.

Abandoned

I see some fuss about ninja's and Naruto but I see no real reference to it in this class that has been marked for death. Infact the class looks almost complete with some ok skills into it. There is a Ki system but not a chacra system, I believe this template is wrongly put and one of the salvageable classes around here. Crashpilot 17:39, 28 February 2011 (MST)

Well, it wasn't actually "marked for destruction", but anyways someone fixed the class without removing the template. Whenever someone deletes a page with a template on it, they first make sure that the template is valid, so there's not usually a worry about removing a perfectly usable class. JazzMan 18:03, 28 February 2011 (MST)

Ok that makes perfect sense, ty. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crashpilot (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

There's no supernatural Path I Walk abilities either. --Keegan- 08:41, 24 February 2012 (MST)

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is balanced and can function in any party as a rogue, but adds a nice twist that makes more effective in a lot of ways. --72.95.170.203 12:02, 2 March 2011 (MST)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it is well explained and understandable and other than basic mistakes needs no editing. --72.95.170.203 12:02, 2 March 2011 (MST)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it follows the rules and guidelines of D&D with only a few errors. --72.95.170.203 12:02, 2 March 2011 (MST)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is a mixing of two styles (Rogue and Monk) but it functions as its own class and provides a different and unique experience to the player that neither the rogue nor the monk would be able to offer. --72.95.170.203 12:02, 2 March 2011 (MST)

Rating

Power - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because it's a combat/non-spellcasting class, so of course ninja are never going to be that powerful no matter its BAB or skill points. But for a non-caster, it works well and looks like it can hold its britches up while contributing to a party at all levels with level-appropriate equipment.

Some ideas, though:

• Ghost Step IMHO should last longer, at least 1 round/two levels in Ninja. Otherwise he's going to eat through his limited daily Ki uses fast. At a higher level (7-10?) maybe this can be upgraded to duplicate Improved Invisibility, and last 1 minute/level in Ninja? Plenty of enemies above CR 6 have See Invisibility to counter it, if you're worried about that, and monarchies who don't employ such protections are begging for your garotte anyway =].

• The Path I Walk is nice and flavorful, and allows variation between different ninja. Maybe one could add a few more supernatural or spell-like abilities that can only be acquired at a higher level (he begs for Charm Person, Mirror Image, and other illusions and enchantments... but not too many as we don't want to take too much of the beguiler's schtick)? If I were playing a ninja, I'd probably take the following in this order: instinct, armor-ki synergy, shunshin, improved evasion, and bonus feats for the rest.

• At level 10, the table says Ghost Step (Ethereal) but there's nothing said in the text? Maybe you meant something like Ethereal Jaunt with two-or-three daily Ki uses? Better here than as the capstone (more on that later).

• Hundred Faces - limited-use Disguise Self at level 14? At least druids get it at-will, and one level earlier. And the druid's Thousand Faces is still laughably weak (not that they need any help at all =] ); by this level, almost everyone you're fighting has or can easily acquire True Seeing, not to mention everybody laughing at the guy who learns to do what everyone else was doing since about 10 levels ago after throwing chump change for a Hat of Disguise. I recommend this ability be at-will, acquirable as one of the The Path I Walk choices, or do Alter Self. That spell is normally cheesy or borderline overpowered, but that's because wizards get it at level 3 on top of all the other powerful things they can do to ruin your day while making their and their friends untouchable (blur, color spray, daze monster, false life, fog cloud, ghoul touch, glitterdust, grease, mirror image, mount, protection from [alignment], pyrotechnics, rope trick, silent image, sleep, spectral hand, summon monster II... and that's core-only!). If it's your only "spell", and its ~15/day uses (you almost certainly have a buffed Wisdom at least in the 30's at level 14) are competing with several other abilities, and you can't also throw down battlefield-controlling attacks like solid fog or wall of force, and teleport to the other side of the planet or or to other planes of existence, and snap a finger to instantly slay anyone who fails a Fortitude or Will saving throw (all in the same time as your typical combat encounter, no less), then it should be just fine.

• The ninja totally needs something sexier than Ethereal Jaunt at level 20. (A spell wizards cast at level 13.) By this level, characters are arguably the equal (or even superior!) of legendary characters like Hercules (Achilles is maybe level 10-15), and need to do something that god-monsters like balors and solars care about. I don't know what; I'll leave this to actual fans of the whole Oriental assassin thang.

• Perhaps you can take inspiration from the Tome Monk and rewrite this class as a magical ninja who can only exist on worlds where badgers can talk and winged horses can fly. --ScryersEve 19:44, 10 September 2011 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because the writing is solid and gets the point across well, if a bit dry. See Flavor. --ScryersEve 19:44, 10 September 2011 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because you can't get much better than this. Only things I could see for improvement are minor clarifications, such as the aforementioned Ghost Step (Ethereal). --ScryersEve 19:44, 10 September 2011 (MDT)

Flavor - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because... to be honest, I had to resist giving it a zero due to my irrational hatred of common "warrior" archetypes e.g. knight, samurai, pirate, as wells tapped-out before the Web's advent. However, I decided to rate it based on what it it's supposed to be. And what it is, I'm sorry but just doesn't stand out from all the other Oriental assassins floating about. It offers little to make it interesting aside from, "I'm a ninja! Rawr!" Arguably the fact that he's even called a ninja locks him into the archetype of Oriental assassin, which can be a dealbreaker for many. The archetype of "stealthy, mysterious murder-machine" is a good and probably necessary one, though, and with major amounts of fluff can be turned into something awesome (instead of its current form as a rogue/monk and little else). For example, take a look at what they did in the Assassin's Creed games, with what Altair and Ezio can do as well as the secret war and artifacts (I don't want to spoil it). --ScryersEve 19:44, 10 September 2011 (MDT)

Class Features Problems

The order of some of the features is off, most notable with Ghost Step and Ki Dodge. Ghost Step is basically an invisibility that you get at level 2. When you get to level 6, you get Ki Dodge with only gives you concealment for the same duration as Ghost Step. The levels you get these abilities at should be switched.

Also, Ghost Step itself is a really broken feature, as it's basically a Quickened Invisibility. You can easily use it every turn to remain invisible until you run out of ki. It would be alright if you got it at a higher level and cost 3+ ki, though, as you wouldn't get it until Wizards are already able to use Quickened Invisibility and Greater Invisibility and you wouldn't be able to stay in it for nearly as long. More abilities that use ki would also be good, since you would be punished for using up all of your ki to stay invisible. --Suezotiger (talk) 01:56, 2 August 2012 (MDT)