Talk:Naruto: Shinobi (5e Class)/Archive 5

Scroll Changes

Just a minor discussion thread about the new scroll mechanics. This one is meant to reflect canon while also staying balanced (by using the Artificer's ability to make bags of holding at 2nd level as heavy inspiration).

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 21:53, 21 November 2019 (MST)

Dōjutsu Clarification

The Foresight ability of the Sharingan mentions "The Sharingan lasts for 1 minute. At the end of which you must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw." This implies that if you end the Sharingan before the minute ends, then you don't need to make the saving throw.

Am I correct in my assumption, or do you make the saving throw even if you end it early?

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 13:25, 8 November 2019 (MST)

This brings up a similar question for the Byakugan, actually. It has a longer duration, and the user takes damage rather than Exhaustion, but its worded differently than the Sharingan: "After 1 hour of having your Byakugan activated, you must succeed a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, otherwise the Byakugan deactivates and you take 1d6 psychic damage. Your Byakugan can be activated or deactivated at will."

To me, this does sound like the "exhaustion" effect only takes place once the 1 hour is over. Not only that, but it seems that you can have it active for longer than 1 hour by passing the saving throw. If the effect is supposed to be the same for both, I think they should be worded identically. Otherwise if the Sharingan is meant to work differently, it should be clarified to be so. - Kiralokiin (talk) 13:47, 8 November 2019 (MST)

I agree with Kiralokiin (talk), and believe both Great Dojutsu should have those similar effects. Especially since we've seen that happening in canon for both Dojutsu.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 14:51, 8 November 2019 (MST)

How about this:

”The (Dōjutsu) lasts for 1 minute, at the end of which you must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw. If you fail, (flavor text) and you gain 1 level of exhaustion. You can end this early at will, negating the need to make the saving throw. You regain use of this at the end of a short rest.”

-Ref3rence (talk) 19:20, 8 November 2019 (MST)

Is this going to change the duration of Byakugan from 1 hour to 1 minute, then? Cause that's a very crippling nerf.

- Kiralokiin (talk) 20:09, 8 November 2019 (MST)

Here's an addition to your idea Ref3rence (talk):

”The (Dōjutsu) lasts for 1 minute, at the end of which you must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw. If you fail, (flavor text) and you gain 1 level of exhaustion. If you succeed, the (Dōjutsu) lasts for another minute. You can end this early at will, negating the need to make the saving throw. You regain use of this at the end of a short rest.”

Though it is a great buff, I do enjoy the idea of making both dojutsu's duration to 1 hour too.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 20:26, 8 November 2019 (MST)

The way I see it, the Sharingan provides much better combat benefits than the Byakugan. So it's duration not being as long is a way to keep the combat buff only to combat and not as a passive. I do believe that the current wording for the Byakugan works for both Dojutsu, however.

I mocked up a quick edit based on the Byakugan's existing text, with a bit of added clarification: "After (time limit) of having your (Dojutsu) activated, you must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw, on a failure, the (Dojutsu) deactivates and you (suffer consequence), on success the (Dojutsu) stays active for another (time limit), after which you must repeat the saving throw."

This way it doesn't buff or nerf either of the Dojutsu's duration, but it allows both to be used for longer than their specified amount of time by consecutively passing the saving throws. Maybe we could consider an increase in the DC for every successful save? just an idea to make it so Con-heavy characters don't always keep their abilities active. -Kiralokiin (talk) 20:49, 8 November 2019 (MST)

That seems like the best option to me. I do think we should make the Byakugan’s failure effect be 1 level of exhaustion, however, because 1d6 damage doesn’t matter for all that many levels. -Ref3rence (talk) 07:59, 9 November 2019 (MST)

Awesome! Glad you like it. I'll wait for Voided Essence, The Void Walker's opinion on this before changing the writing.

-Kiralokiin (talk) 08:15, 9 November 2019 (MST)

I agree with the new changes, except for the DC increase. The DC is already high enough as it is, and punishing every user because some others are focused on constitution isn't a good idea. Not to mention, the ability to keep their dojutsu active longer than people with lower constitution makes sense (and is represented a lot in canon). Keeping the DC to 15 is the way to go.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 09:30, 9 November 2019 (MST)

I think you might have misunderstood. It isn't a "punishment", it's meant to reflect the growing difficulty in keeping the Dojutsu active. Kind of like staying awake for several days: it becomes periodically harder to do so, since you grow more tired over time.

Obviously, high Con PCs will be able to keep it up for longer on average. But it would make sense for a PC that is weak in Con to find it more difficult than a Higher Con PC.

And to be fair, I didn't explain how the increase could work. It could possibly be just a +1 for every consecutive success, resetting back to 15 on a fail.

Let me know what yall think.

-Kiralokiin (talk) 09:39, 9 November 2019 (MST)

I see your point. And while I'm still leaning towards keeping a static DC of 15, I also think a +1 for every success isn't too bad. I'm curious to see what others think though.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 09:57, 9 November 2019 (MST)

I agree. We can wait a bit for any more input, since the matter isn't urgent.

-Kiralokiin (talk) 10:37, 9 November 2019 (MST)

I've written up the discussed mechanics for the new Dojutsu changes while also adding Sharingan mechanics currently in use in a campaign I'm in. Let me know what you think and if you're fine with me adding them to the class.

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/Sk864LIoB

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 12:55, 11 November 2019 (MST)

They all look pretty good. I just want to add though, the increase in duration for the Mangekyo is unnecessary since it piggybacks off the normal Sharingan. So their durations would be the same.

Also, I don't agree with the ability to end the Mangekyo early to avoid the saving throw for being blinded, since iirc, the damage happens on use of the Mangekyo in Canon.

The Rinnegan ability to learn a creature's features would also probably work better as a contest with one of the target's Skills. It should also probably be limited to learning one of their aspects per use.

For the rest, it all looks pretty decent.

-Kiralokiin (talk) 09:00, 12 November 2019 (MST)

If you mean the first paragraph for the Rinnegan, then that's copy pasted from "Chakra Detection" of the current rinnegan. I did not add or modify any mechanics, I just wrote it in so it was clear that I wasn't removing that mechanic from the class. I also don't think a contest would make sense considering the nature of the Rinnegan. The way it is written makes more sense as a "passive" counter to the Chakra Detection instead of an active contest.

Other than that, you make a valid point for the Mangekyo and I agree about the saving throw. I'll make the change depending on what the majority votes.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 09:43, 12 November 2019 (MST)

Aaah, I see, my bad.

In that case, for the Rinnegan ability, why not make the DC follow a passive Skill of the target? Like passive Deception, or something more fitting.

-Kiralokiin (talk) 09:59, 12 November 2019 (MST)

I am in favor of the new changes, including the above Rinnegan change. -Ref3rence (talk) 11:26, 12 November 2019 (MST)

Just double checking, Ref3rence, is this also agreeing to the DC increment after a success on passing the exhaustion saving throw?

-Kiralokiin (talk) 16:40, 12 November 2019 (MST)

That's a good point. I believe he's agreeing to exactly the way I wrote it up in the link (so not having a DC increment). But it's good to be certain.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 17:12, 12 November 2019 (MST)

I apologize. I am in favor of the DC increasing by 1 after every success, I should have clarified. -Ref3rence (talk) 18:59, 12 November 2019 (MST)

Understood. I'll add everything we discussed and agreed on, as well as edit the class this weekend. Just to give more time for others to join in if they have more to add or recommend.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 19:45, 12 November 2019 (MST)

Path of the Exaulted Changes

I have reworked the Path of the Exaulted to fit the canon Rinnegan mechanics. I'd rather not change the path completely without warning however, so here is a link to the actual rework:

https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SJwaz3rXor

I've been working on it for some time, however feel free to let me know what you think before I officially implement the changes in the class. I'll probably wait about two weeks or so for responses.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 20:21, 10 November 2019 (MST)

It looks great! However, I believe Black Receivers should reduce movement speed by 5/10 feet, rather than 20%, as a simple quality of life simplification. -Ref3rence (talk) 20:55, 10 November 2019 (MST)

I fully understand what you mean. However, 20% was the only way I could think to word it so that 5 black receivers would reduce movement speed to 0 (I believe that was the amount used to bring an individual to a standstill. 1 through each arm and leg, and a last one through the torso. Though I may be remembering wrong). Reducing movement speed by a set amount doesn't scale well enough with faster creatures, though I suppose that might be a good thing. I'm unsure on this subject, to be honest.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 21:10, 10 November 2019 (MST)

That’s absolutely fair. -Ref3rence (talk) 07:34, 11 November 2019 (MST)

Full Power

I have been mulling over the first request on this page since it was posted. Allowing a player to gain multiple 20th level features should probably be a boon, but I’m also considering making it a level locked feat, either 16th or 19th level. I’m also considering a similar thing for Jinchuriki. I don’t think the increased cost will pan out, but I want more than one opinion on this. -Ref3rence (talk) 15:23, 27 November 2019 (MST)

I believe that there should be a lot go at level 16 or 15 because a lot of the subclasses actually takes a lot of time to master sometimes years

And possibly have an epic boom that allows you to go pass that

Below is my current write-up. I have them written as feats but, as above, they may become boons. Let me know what you guys think.

Dōjutsu Prodigy

Requirements: 16th level, at least one implanted dōjutsu.

Your implanted dōjutsu are not limited by implantation. You can gain all dōjutsu-based subclasses from implanted dōjutsu in the same manner as you would if you had chosen it at 3rd level.

Prodigious Jinchūriki

Requirements: 16th level, have a Tailed Beast sealed inside you after taking a different class or subclass.

You can gain features past Tailed Release, and you no longer must be two levels higher than the listed requirement to gain Path of the Beast subclass features.

-Ref3rence (talk) 15:39, 28 November 2019 (MST)

I feel like that works but what about the other classes

Just one quick question so could a jinchuriki technically be classified as path of permeance

Dōjutsu subclasses and Path of the Beast are the only subclasses you can get post-3rd level. Path of Permanence has nothing to do with being a Jinchuriki. -Ref3rence (talk) 07:59, 29 November 2019 (MST)

Okay one last question so does the dojutsu arm work with this ruling

I don’t see why it wouldn’t -Ref3rence (talk) 12:20, 29 November 2019 (MST)

Does this mean that a person to get the taijutsu abilities of the Byakugan

Yes, as mechanically it is a part of that subclass, and in universe it is reliant on having the Byakugan in some capacity. On a side-note, please make sure you are posting inquiries under this discussion, and not under scroll changes. -Ref3rence (talk) 15:14, 29 November 2019 (MST)

Mangekyo Clarification

Hi, all. I just wanted some clarification on how the Mangekyo abilities are meant to work. From what I can see, some abilities don't have a limit to how much they can be used (Amaterasu, for example), while others have an amount of uses tied to the amount of eyes you have (Tsukuyomi, for example).

I'm just wondering if there should be a standard method to determine the amount of usage, as some of these abilities are pretty powerful to be used all the time at no cost.

The Custom Jutsu guideline even refers to multiple use abilities if they're weaker than a 5th level spell.

I can provide some examples on how these abilities have limited uses (info from the Wiki), such as Itachi's Tsukuyomi placing a strain in his eyes every time he uses it(kind of translates to the per-eye thing) and the specific usage of Kakashi's Kamui being of three times a day, initially. Amaterasu's description doesn't give a specific usage amount, but it simply says that it "puts a great deal of strain on the user, usually causing their eyes to bleed."

My suggestion would be to have the amount of times you can use it be according to your Constitution modifier, or at least have a chakra cost depending on the abilities.

For suggestion of chakra cost, I've been compiling a data sheet based on existing Jutsu to determine an average cost amount for each. Its going to be used for an optional rule I'm writing.

I can share that if anyone thinks it would help to decide on chakra costs.

Regardless, let me know what you guys think.

-Kiralokiin (talk) 07:16, 16 November 2019 (MST)

I suport the idea of an amount of uses equal to the user's Constitution modifier, since this reflects the whole "strain on your body" theme that the Sharingan and Mangekyo have (especially with this class' mechanics). But please do share the data you've compiled as it sounds interesting.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 14:55, 16 November 2019 (MST)

Jinchuriki

I have created a variant of the Jinchuriki race currently suggests to better integrate into this class. I have not changed the link yet, as I wanted more than one pair of eyes on this, so please let me know what y’all think. -Ref3rence (talk) 11:22, 12 December 2019 (MST)

The Inner Spirit Template section specifies "two additional spells received at levels 3 and 5 respectively" yet the other examples show the spells are cast using (3 and 6) Chakra instead. I assume this is a copy-paste that you forgot to edit to fit the race. Should it just be reworded that it costs 3 and 5 Chakra respectively? Or that the spells should be level 3 and 5 respectively?

I believe making all the spells cost 3 and 5 chakra respectively fits perfectly since that's exactly half the basic chakra amount a person gets at 3rd and 5th level, while also working with the original line of "received at levels 3 and 5 respectively". This also doesn't set any restrictions on the spell levels (especially considering the other Jinchuriki have spells of varying levels.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 11:44, 23 December 2019 (MST)

Thank you for catching that. I’ll be sure to fix it as soon as possible. -Ref3rence (talk) 13:26, 23 December 2019 (MST)

Swift Style: Surge

Surge should be based off of Haste. Making it basically give a character two turns every turn (by giving them an additional action and bonus action) for a minute is way too powerful. --Vogril The Revenant (talk) 07:51, 9 January 2020 (MST)

You're sacrificing a bonus to AC for a bonus action. It's just as powerful as Haste. I've play-tested them both, and it's not as OP as it seems on paper. Though if anything, it should be mentioned that Surge can't be stacked with Haste since I can see that being abused. - Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 08:02, 9 January 2020 (MST)

How is the ability to make up to twice the amount of attacks you could normally make in a turn and then still have two bonus actions only as powerful as Haste? The only abilities in the game that allow a character to have an additional action are Action Surge, a very limited use ability that only fighters get and only gives one additional action once, and Time Stop, a 9th level spell that is limited by the fact that you cannot effect other creatures.

This game is based around an action economy and naturally the more actions a character can take the more powerful they are. That's why creatures that are supposed to be very powerful get legendary actions. Having an ability that basically lets a character take two turns in a round for up to a minute along with other benefits (advantage on Dex saves and +1 to AC) is simply game breaking and unfair. Especially when we're talking about an ability that can be acquired pretty early game and can easily be used multiple times a day based on it's resource cost.

Besides if it really isn't any more powerful than Haste then why shouldn't it just be based off of Haste. --Vogril The Revenant (talk) 13:57, 9 January 2020 (MST)

The conversation wasn't over, yet you still reverted the change. You seem convinved that you're correct, despite the fact that the ability wasn't an issue before you changed it without even bothering to bring it up to discussion. Correct this idea in your head that you're superior, and stop being so self-centered. This is a community, and the discussion thread is there for a reason. I won't revert your changes, since it's simply not worth the effort of debating to a wall.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2020 (MST)

Are we really going to let people uncontestedly make decisions like this lol. He nerfed it for a campaign that DOES NOT EXIST YET. He could easily make the change for his group but no, here we are

If you want this to be a discussion, then perhaps address my arguments and make an argument of why and how your version is more balanced. Don't try to make this personal for no reason.--Vogril The Revenant (talk) 19:06, 18 January 2020 (MST)

As I've explained, Haste gives a +2 bonus to AC but doesn't give any extra bonus actions. Surge, on the other hand, only gives a +1 to AC while adding an additional bonus action. This means that with Haste, you would get 2 actions, 1 bonus action and +2 to AC. While with Surge, you'd get 2 actions, 2 bonus actions and a +1 to AC. It may seem powerful to you on paper, but you're sacrificing survivability for a single extra bonus action (which you can't do much with already, but that's besides the point). Given the choice, most people would choose Haste because of the increase in AC since a bonus action isn't as useful as it sounds in comparison. You seem to be looking at Surge in a very basic way (action economy, while ignoring the comparison between a bonus action and survivability). I've done the play-testing already, and no one else has complained about the ability before you came along (quite the opposite actually, it seems an Anon doesn't appreciate your actions). This clearly indicates that Surge isn't an issue.

I've been wanting this to be a discussion, but you not only keep reverting the changes regardless of what you're being told (as shown in the page's edit history), but you also went ahead and edited the page mid-discussion. Seems to me like you're the one who isn't interested in discussion. I assume that's the reason the website owner temporarily blocked edits to the class.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 02:28, 19 January 2020 (MST)

Okay, but at what point in game balance has anyone ever said that a +1 to AC is equivalent to a bonus action? It isn't. A bonus action, especially for a class like this, can be used to do a lot of things, where +1 to AC just makes you slightly harder to hit.

Also let's not skip over the fact that the additional action your proposing is a straight up standard action that can be used to do any number of things, where the additional action offered by Haste and that I propose be used for Surge is a very limited action. I.E. can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action. The difference between an standard action and a Haste action is tremendous. An extra standard action could be used to use two Jutsu in a turn or make up to twice the normal amount of attacks a person could normally make. Where damage output wise, a Haste action would only let someone make 1 additional attack each turn. Objectively, they cannot be called equivalent in power.

Also the idea that someone would pass up something that could basically give them the ability to have two turns every round for a +1 to AC is ridiculous.--Vogril The Revenant (talk) 10:16, 19 January 2020 (MST)

You keep saying you've playtested it and that it isn't as over powered as it seems on paper, but you seem to be ignoring or unaware of the fact that it can easily be abused. When something can straight up double someone's damage output it is by definition over powered.--Vogril The Revenant (talk) 10:26, 19 January 2020 (MST)

Doubling the damage output is of course very powerful, especially for 1 minute. How about just increasing the Chakra cost to 10, and decreasing the duration by half? --Green Dragon (talk) 00:10, 20 January 2020 (MST)

Or as I'm suggesting, simply making it Haste.--Vogril The Revenant (talk) 06:02, 20 January 2020 (MST)

Dropping my 2 cents into the hat, I have to agree with Green Dragon. While its original form was far too powerful, making it identical to Haste kills its identity as a unique class feature. Alternatively, we could add that attacking or casting any jutsu requires a concentration check and keep its duration the same. -Ref3rence (talk) 07:33, 20 January 2020 (MST)

It's worth noting that Swift Release is completely reliant on Surge being active to use the other techniques (with the exception of Superstorm). Making it a concentration check to be able to cast a jutsu while under Surge probably isn't a good idea, considering that. I suppose we could make it so Swift Release jutsus are the exception to this rule.

Something along the lines of:

"Your speed doubles for the duration and you gain an additional action and bonus action, gain a +1 bonus to AC as well as having advantage on dexterity saving throws. When spending chakra to cast a jutsu or any other technique that isn't a Swift Release using the action or bonus action given by Surge, roll a Concentration check. On a failure, the technique fails and Surge ends. A wave of lethargy sweeps over you as soon as the Jutsu ends: you are unable to move or take any actions until the end of your next turn."

I don't think increasing the chakra cost is a good idea either considering Surge is meant to be a gateway to other jutsus, and increasing the cost makes it harder to use it as such. Unless the other jutsus are given a reduced cost to make up for it. Reducing the duration doesn't really make it worthwhile either if we take the chakra costs into account.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 09:16, 22 January 2020 (MST)

Sounds good to me. -Ref3rence (talk) 09:21, 22 January 2020 (MST)

I'm okay with that as well. Let's just wait for a response from Vogril The Revenant so we can be sure that the edit warring will be stopped. --Green Dragon (talk) 23:56, 23 January 2020 (MST)

Hi, guys. Considering the argument got a little heated earlier on, I figured I might voice my opinion as well. Its been a while since I've been active, anyway, so I might as well get the dust off my keyboard.

I do agree that the ability to simply double your actions is rather powerful, considering how dynamic this class is already, it could possibly lead to broken builds and whatnot. However, I have to say that I strongly disagree with making it into Haste. It absolutely kills any originality that the Style had to begin with and is simply an easy scapegoat.

Simply dumbing it down to a Haste is the complete opposite of what this Wiki is here for. We're meant to homebrew new ideas, not simply rely on already existing concepts. This was already an issue with this class in previous versions, as most subclasses or styles simply allowed you to cast "X spell for Y amount of chakra points". Its boring, non-original and, bluntly put, simple thinking.

As for Voided's alternative, it seems like some solid groundwork for an improvement, in my opinion. Although, if I can be a bit picky here, "any other technique that isn't Swift Release" should probably be expanded upon. Does this include other Features of this class, or other classes (in the case of multi-classing)? Only Jutsu and spells? Or simply any actions that don't involve Swift Style whatsoever.

Summing up, I'm all for this change, if we can work on it as a group, not as arguing individuals.

Thanks for coming to my TED talk. --Kiralokiin (talk) 05:59, 2 February 2020 (MST)

Vogril has not been active for more than 20 days. I consider this ample time for him to reply and state his grievances. I believe we can solve Kira’s issue by simply changing the portion in question to “action or bonus action not granted by Swift Release”. I hope we can come to a conclusion soon. Ref3rence (talk) 12:21, 5 February 2020 (MST)

In that case how about only limiting it to the action given by Surge? Since the bonus action can only be used risk-free on the Basic Swift Style Technique, which has a duration of 1 minute anyway (making the bonus action relatively pointless after).

While I hope to see an input from Vogril on this subject, I agree that we should move on once we have come to an agreement by majority. The class has been on lockdown for too long afterall.

In any case, it's great to have you back Kira. I hope to see more content coming from you.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 13:26, 5 February 2020 (MST)

Sounds good! Ref3rence (talk) 15:12, 5 February 2020 (MST)

I'm happy with that change too. --Kiralokiin (talk) 15:59, 5 February 2020 (MST)

Path of Sealing

The subclass I mentioned I was working on in December is finished. Here's the link: https://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/HJ3AcOP3r

It's a subclass based on Tenten and Wasabi's techniques. Let me know what you think.

Also, feel free to recommend a better name.

- Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 10:11, 26 January 2020 (MST)

I've added it to the page for the sake of simplicity. I patched a handful of grammar/spelling/mechanical errors, but it was mostly stuff everybody gets wrong, and other than that it's pretty good. I'm kinda confused about what you mean by "to seal Nature Elements into a scroll. The amount sealed cannot exceed twice the weight of the scroll" though. To my knowledge, this holds no mechanical benefits and I'm trying to figure out what you meant. Ref3rence (talk) 20:18, 8 February 2020 (MST)

Just noticed you added it already. To explain sealing Nature Elements, I mean sealing things like Water, Fire, Dirt/Earth, Etc into a scroll. The only benefits are creativity. Whether you'd seal a bunch of dirt to make a hole, or seal flames currently burning a building for example as shown in the source material. I don't expect this to be used a lot, but I also expect it to be used in very creative ways. - Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2020 (MST)

That's perfectly fair. Thank you for the clarification. Sorry about adding it before you could, I just got paranoid about another edit war starting. Ref3rence (talk) 21:01, 8 February 2020 (MST)

No worries, at least it's up there now. - Voided Essence, The Void Walker (talk) 21:04, 8 February 2020 (MST)

Truth-Seeking Orbs & Sage Mode

Obviously the Truth-Seeking Orbs can’t be as powerful as they are in canon, but as they are now they are kinda bogus. Does anybody have any suggestions on how to rework TSO to be more inline with canon?

Update, I am currently working on 2 subclasses focused on use of TSOs and Sage Mode. Not to say that they will become subclass only, but that they both have enough material to be fleshed out more. -Ref3rence (talk) 13:17, 29 February 2020 (MST)

I’m going to leave this topic here for a few weeks due to the likely chance that I forgot to account for something. -Ref3rence (talk) 08:17, 2 March 2020 (MST)

Roar, Youth!

I was skimming through the paths to find things to improve upon, and I have a slight issue with the current state of the Path of Youth, or better yet a way to improve it. As it is now, the later gates use weird time limit (to my knowledge, the shortest time-based limit in 5e is 1 minute), and their reliance on small amounts of damage and multiple levels of exhaustion is strange.

What I propose is, instead of limited use and hazards upon exiting, instead make it cost hit points to maintain each round (note: not technically damage to make the 3rd Gates hit point gain, which will be changed to temporary hit points, matter). I don’t want to make any hasty changes to one of the core subclasses, but I really do believe this would improve the subclass and would love some input. -Ref3rence (talk) 08:17, 2 March 2020 (MST)

A full write up of what I’m suggesting can be found at this link. -Ref3rence (talk) 09:05, 2 March 2020 (MST)

As no objections have been made, I will be moving over the new version. -Ref3rence (talk) 07:34, 6 March 2020 (MST)

Age-Old Question

The more I think about it, the more I believe Sage Mode and Truth-Seeking Orbs should become sub-class restricted. In canon, both abilities are used by a very small handful of characters, and neither are shown to be a natural progression of a typical shinobi's abilities. I believe they should be replaced by a feature that allows a player to take a different sub-class's feature (level restricted, no implantable subclasses) or gain a unique jutsu or feat. I really want to hear back on such an important edit. -Ref3rence (talk) 21:31, 24 March 2020 (MDT)

I think it should something you work for sage mode that's based off your summoning and then when you get the sagd of the six paths the truth seeking orbs yougain from getting indra or ashura dna id say put the dna as feats and some of the abiltys at higher levels like indra sussanoo as a epic boon is perfect and the only way to get such abilty is only have 1 of each dna can only be used by 1 player each and they can gain the sage mode and the truth seeking orbs-Bimu

I think I understand most of what you’re saying, but your lack of punctuation or capitalization is making what you’re trying to say cluttered and confusing. Sage Mode and TSOs would more-or-less be restricted to Epic Boons or subclasses by default after this change. The more important part of this that I’m trying to decide is if the change is a good idea in the first place, and if so what to replace the features with. -Ref3rence (talk) 13:53, 25 March 2020 (MDT)

Sorry about that, I'm always was working while messaging you on here, but I would make it a epic boon for a class to have a subclass of sage mode can be taken advantage of since in the show naruto trained relentlessly to have it. But if you put it as boons or a feat, at higher levels they can use their down time with their summoning to get a quest to get sage mode from there contract. -bimu

No worries. I believe that consulting with their summon to gain a quest to train for Sage Mode is something that can already happen without additional rules. However, that still leaves into question what they’ll be replaced with. -Ref3rence (talk) 14:21, 25 March 2020 (MDT)

Now that I can respond better. I would actually leave as is but make it more where instead of gaining it put more on working on getting it. Like for example: they have to use the sage mode amount of time just like the sussanoo until they master it and only in sage mode they can use sage arts only during that time. Now for the TSO it should only be tied up with six paths sage mode as a epic boon. DNA of indra and ashura should be a thing for the sage of the six paths or if they have the 10 tails. I would make the DNA of indra or ashura like a feat so at latter levels it can help them with the sage mode but as lore goes anyone who takes it they'll have a rough rivalry between each other. -Bimu

If TSOs are going to tied to an Epic Boon, they shouldn't be a standard class feature and need to be replaced with something. As for Sage Mode, almost everything you mentioned is already part of the Path of the Sage, which was the main reason I wanted to remove it from the class table. -Ref3rence (talk) 08:44, 26 March 2020 (MDT)

How about when you get the class feature instead of gaining it, you instead gain the path features for them instead like when you get to the level of the sage mode you get the path feature and every 50,000 xps you gain you unlock the next feature for both the sage mode and the tso and put the choice if they take that part of the feature if they dont they wont benefit from it. -Bimu

In that case, why bother even taking the Path of the Sage or Totality if everybody is just going to get it later? If we're going to give an additional subclass, we might as well make it a choice. What if we allowed them to take a second subclass (excluding implantable subclasses), which they gain a feature from at 17th, 18th, and 19th level? -Ref3rence (talk) 13:09, 26 March 2020 (MDT)

That be perfect -Bimu

Perfect! I'm going to leave this here until tomorrow in case anybody else has anything to add. -Ref3rence (talk) 13:16, 26 March 2020 (MDT)

Hell yeah! That's perfect too for when they gain sage mode or tso they'll get the the 3 biggest benefits -Bimu

I'm pushing the update out early. If anybody has issues or changes, this discussion tab will remain here for a while. -Ref3rence (talk) 19:15, 26 March 2020 (MDT)

I feel like Sage Mode should be a subclass and still a class feature but you know those subclass you're obviously get more. Because although we haven't seen a lot of what I can do it's tall enough to have it as a subclass that can grow more powerful with the rest As for Tranquility that needs to be like a level 20 subclass after you get truth-seeking orbs or something because of just how powerful it is supposed to be

The first three Path of the Sage feature, effectively a less powerful version of Sage Mode, can be taken with the Additional Path feature, which also allows for greater player choice. As for TSO's, while it's true that they are effectively end-game content in canon, the concept of a "level 20 subclass" doesn't make very much sense to me, the form they are acquired in is heavily nerfed from their canon strength, and characters like Kimimaro have shown that kekkei mōra like TSOs can be inherited, though rarely, like any other kekkei genkai. -Ref3rence (talk) 13:24, 28 March 2020 (MDT)

Yin-Yang Style

On the coat-tails of the previous change, documented below, I have been considering another major change that's been thrown around a few times, changing Yin-Yang into a Kekkei Genkai gained by learning Yin and Yang Style. I have created a write-up here. I drew a handful of Yang and Yin-Yang jutsu from typeless and unnamed jutsu, as well as a handful of stated ninshu due to the lack of stated jutsu. -Ref3rence (talk) 17:42, 27 March 2020 (MDT)

I wouldnt because in the series everyone uses yin and yang through just about everything -bimu

I’m confused by what you mean by that. Very few characters use either yin, yang, or yin-yang jutsu. For instance, the only 100% confirmed yang jutsu are the Amakichi clan techniques. Either way, if they are a common through-line, wouldn’t it make more sense to adapt them? -Ref3rence (talk) 22:15, 27 March 2020 (MDT)

Yes and no in a way you are right but Yin Release uses spiritual energy and Yang Release uses physical energy, which are the two components of chakra. This in turn means that all jutsu that utilise chakra are at least distantly rooted in Yin–Yang Release. -Bimu

I see where you're coming from, but if that were the case, Yin Release and Yang Release wouldn't exist. As a nature transformation, both are still comprised of chakra, which is the combination of physical and spiritual energy. With they way it is used in canon, it's more accurate to say that Yin controls spiritual energy, and that Yang controls physical energy. -Ref3rence (talk) 08:41, 28 March 2020 (MDT)

Also, assuming that Yin and Yang only use spiritual and physical energy and not chakra, that's completely different from how every other jutsu works, and almost unarguably would require more skill. -Ref3rence (talk) 11:05, 28 March 2020 (MDT)

So what you are saying is that you are wanting to make yin release and yang release features to use. -Bimu

Yes. I’ve added them to Chakra Natures under the assumption that any necessary improvements could be made, and that if the eventual consensus was that they should not be added undoing the edit would not be difficult. -Ref3rence (talk) 10:55, 29 March 2020 (MDT)

On New Chakra Natures

I’m putting this here preemptively, because I know for sure that somebody will find fault in it at some point.

While Crystal Style is implied to be partially Earth Style, it’s never outright stated. For balancing reasons, Kekkei Genkai for Yin Style and Yang Style should be restricted to one per nature, as the main drawback to Yin-Yang is that you lose out on having additional Kekkei Genkai. As Steel Release is already Earth-Yang, I had to change what nature it corresponded with.

Dark Release’s official English name is Shade Style as to not confuse it with Yin Release, also called Dark or Shadow Style. Due to it only having 2 official jutsu, I have added jutsu that lack official natures but fit the theme of absorbing and releasing jutsu.

The same applies to Steel Release, with 3 official jutsu. A handful of iron sand jutsu from Magnet Release have been adapted to fill out the nature.

While Acid Style is not found in canon, every jutsu either makes little sense as a Water Style jutsu, as it is in canon, or is not attributed to any nature. I also intentionally chose ones that do not fit the same type of acid as Vapor Style corrosion. Finally, a Water Style needed something.

Just wanted to clear that up. --Ref3rence (talk) 13:23, 9 April 2020 (MDT)

Would anybody be too offended if I adapted Shadow Possession into the Fire-Yin Style? The combination of confirmed Yin Style with the light reliance makes it the perfect fit to round out the list. I won’t make any hasty edits this time, promise. --Ref3rence (talk) 18:10, 9 April 2020 (MDT)

That's a bit of a yaks for me chief I rather just have it as pure that you have to learn Yin Style or a subclass

Fair enough. That still leaves the problem of what to have the Fire-Yin/Yang Kekkei Genkai be based on pre-existing jutsu. --Ref3rence (talk) 10:31, 10 April 2020 (MDT)

Hmmm I would say the two tails playing but from what we've seen there aren't many things even in movies where you can kind of make fire and Yin cuz I'm pretty sure that's just a fire but with more design and control hmm. I'll let you know if I find anything~kilshot

Alternatively, we could move Kagatsuchi to Fire-Yang to make it harder to get as it is in canon, but that would leave Fire-Lightning empty. Maybe it could be replaced by some of the plasma-based jutsu Gelel users use, specifically Ranke and Haido? -Ref3rence (talk) 12:44, 10 April 2020 (MDT)

Here is the current state of this proposed Plasma Style. Plasma Blast and Plasma Laser were originally Gelel Blast and Gelel Laser, but as they do not require the Stone of Gelel, their names were changed accordingly. -Ref3rence (talk) 14:37, 10 April 2020 (MDT)

Why not make plasma flame yin style?

Plasma being Fire-Lightning makes more sense than Kagatsuchi being Fire-Lightning. --Ref3rence (talk) 15:28, 10 April 2020 (MDT)

True but cannon~killshot

Technically in canon, Kagutsuchi is only a Fire Style technique and has no relashion with Lightning Style. Making it Fire-Yang would be a smaller stretch than it currently is, since it’s technically just manipulating the shape of Amaterasu. --Ref3rence (talk) 16:06, 10 April 2020 (MDT)

Kotoamatsukami

I’ve been debating buffing the effects of this genjutsu for a while. What I propose is the following:

As an action, you cast a genjutsu at a creature that is not Undead or a construct that subtly manipulates the target’s mind. You may issue a command to that creature at least as general as “protect that village” or “ensure these negotiations go wel”. It will go about doing this task to the best of their ability until it is complete or impossible to complete. You may use this once, regaining your Constitution modifier/200 of a use at the end of a long rest. If you have the Hashirama’s Cells feat, you regain twice as many uses at the end of a long rest. If you have the Perfected Hashirama's Cells Ninja Epic Boon, you regain full use at the end of a long rest.

I really want to know what everybody thinks. -Ref3rence (talk) 07:07, 11 March 2020 (MDT)

I had a question about Kotoamatsukami. If you gain it as an ability like Shisui did he was able to use it I believe like 1-2 times a day 2 being for both eyes. So I was wandering if it would be the same if you gain it naturally like shisui and not take it like Danzo did?-D

I haven’t been able to find any evidence of it being able to cast regularly without Hashirama’s cells. You could choose to have Kotoamatsukami be both of your Mangekyou abilities to be able to cast it twice, however. --Ref3rence (talk) 18:13, 20 April 2020 (MDT)

Okay thanks. And keep up the great work!-D

Cursed Mark

Just putting out a feeler, does anybody have any particular thoughts for or against turning Cursed Mark into its own subclass? I think it has enough content, and it would somewhat balance out the difference between Dōjutsu Master and Perfect Vessel, as there are currently 5 dōjutsu subclasses and only 3 implantable non-dōjutsu subclasses. --Ref3rence (talk) 22:35, 2 May 2020 (MDT)

I believe that it should be its own subclass- ~killshot

Change and Rename

I'm planning on reworking the Additional Path feature into another feature with the following description:

At 17th level, you pick an additional Ninja Path to gain the first feature of, individual weapon, armor or skill proficiency, or the ability to use and three jutsu from a chakra nature. Learning jutsu in this manner does not automatically grant kekkei genkai usage, but you can use consecutive instances of this feature to gain kekkei genkai three jutsu that you would have gotten if you chose the previous nature normally. You may choose a second and third Ninja Path or the next feature in your additional path at 18th and 19th level.

My problem is, I am conflicted on what to rename it, as "Additional Path" would no longer apply. I am caught between "Special Jonin" and "Advanced Training". --Ref3rence (talk) 22:13, 5 June 2020 (MDT)

Go for advanced training RenBimu

Path of Suffering changes

Hi, all. I'll be reworking and changing some things around in the Path of Suffering part of the class. I believe that, as it is now, its too bland and boring compared to some of the other more popular sub-classes. Feel free to leave any feedback or ideas here.

Kiralokiin (talk) 06:16, 13 October 2019 (MDT)

I do believe you should wait, for either a vote to change a whole Path. Because if you think about it, it seems boring/bland, but it all depends on who is using it and how. Or if you are making changes give a reasoning for each rework that you do. It's only fair because that's what we did for the Substitution and for the Kekkei Genkai. I also would add that your reasoning of "Boring/Bland" could be applied to the Path of Hatred, given that you're basically just choosing which Uchiha you wanna be like, which to me sounds boring. Thank you for your time.

Nadarrio The Wizzardio of The Universe (talk)

That's a fair point. I'll put changes in here in the future for further discussion. I do have to point out though, Path of Hatred is definitely stronger than most other subclasses, its super variable, even if you're simply imitating already existing characters (which pretty much is the case for all subclasses). I suppose it is probably the most popular one too. The issue with Path of Suffering is not only that its rather weak, its abilities aren't too interesting or new either. Regardless, I really appreciate the feedback though.

Kiralokiin (talk) 11:31, 26 October 2019 (MDT)

Maybe adding a few of his other versatile dances or just adding more in general to make the subclass more versatile Like: All-Killing Ash Bones Dance of the Clematis: Flower Dance of the Clematis: Vine Dance of the Willows Dance of the Holly Bone Bomb

Bone Cage Snare

Hi there, thanks for your input. I'm currently working on the changes I mentioned previously, but progress has been slow. In terms of adding new techniques: yes, some actual Jutsu are being developed for the class, but I also wanted to clarify a few of your ideas:

All-Killing Ash Bones: They wouldn't be a great addition to the class, in my opinion. They're meant to be an instant-kill, which is pretty powerful, and simply don't seem fun to add.

Dance of Clematis: Vine and Flower are already in the class under the Dance of Clematis feature as the first and second part, respectively.

Dance of the Willow: It seems a bit unorthodox on how it actually works, but I'll look into it and consider adding it in the future.

Dance of the Holly, Bone Bomb and Bone Cage Snare: Can't seem to find anything on these. Can you elaborate, or provide a link to a source?

Kiralokiin (talk) 15:42, 5 November 2019 (MST)

It won't let me post the link and also it's not exactly cannon Why not with the dance of the seeding fern give player the ability to travel through the bones

That's actually a pretty good idea. Thanks for that, I'll work it into the feature soon.

-Kiralokiin (talk) 09:39, 10 November 2019 (MST)

Why not give them a plus to a c and a bit of the side effect of hitting spiked armor When they use that bone ability that lets them have shark bones poke out of every part of your body

Those are all fine ideas. They will definitely be considered.

-Kiralokiin (talk) 09:56, 12 November 2019 (MST)

Homebrew Integration

Would anybody be too upset if I added homebrew jutsu to the unique jutsu list with an asterisk/other marking indicating them as such for the sake of not having jutsu spread across 3 different places on the page? --Ref3rence (talk) 21:55, 26 December 2020 (MST)

Do it. It would make it cleaner, and people wouldn't have to scroll all the way down to find jutsu they may want. Sykon (talk) 17:54, 1 January 2021 (MST)

Rinne Sharingan Boon a bit underpowered

Don’t get me wrong Infinite Tsukoyomi is pretty OP, but other than that the only thing it gives you is not having to switch between dojutsus (Which only uses a bonus action) so I just feel that it could be buffed a bit considering it’s only pretty damn hard to obtain with being the Jinchuriki of the Ten-Tails and all such as 1 extra rinnegan ability or maybe 2 extra MS abilites.

You have to keep in mind RinneSharingan is one of 4 potential boons a 10 tails can get. Its in the optional rules. With that in mind, giving RinneSharingan extra benefits wouldn't be too far fetched from my perspective. But that's up to the creator of the class. Something extra wouldn't be the worse thing however. Given the scale of the boon.

Also, for future reference. Post in Requests, don't make your own category. :)Sykon (talk) 16:37, 4 January 2021 (MST)

Oof sorry about that, I’m pretty new to this and I just realized I didn’t have to make my own category

The problem with adding additional benefits on top of Rinne Sharingan is that it has almost no canon content to pull from. I've connected it to a few Kekkei Mora, but that's about all I can do. Additionally, bonus actions are used for a TON of stuff in this class, so saying it "only uses a bonus action" is kinda understating how important bonus actions are. --Ref3rence (talk) 20:25, 4 January 2021 (MST)

The best way to really buff Rinnesharingan is to stipulate that it grants access to the rinnegan and sharingan paths. It should be common sense that this does, but you should also make it known that getting these 2 subclasses from this boon circumvents the need for the dojutsu-acceptant biology feat, I think that's the one.

And that it grants the benefits of EMS, without the 2 additional features.

Looking at the additional benefits, that alone would make Rinnesharingan an awesome boon given its standing. ;) Sykon (talk) 04:40, 5 January 2021 (MST)

I thought it was obvious that you benefitted from both Rinnegan and Sharingan at the same time since it states that both can be used without switching, but I will try to state it clearer on the page itself. The EMS idea isn't that bad either, so I'll definitely be adding that. --Ref3rence (talk) 09:07, 5 January 2021 (MST)

Unlocking

As the user causing problems hasn't been active in a few days, I think the page is good to unlock. That being said, if Paul decides to return (and I really hope he does, more users contributing is a good thing), I only ask that he avoid unnecessarily rewording/overwording things, though replication is definitely in need of a rewrite. --Ref3rence (talk) 12:18, 18 February 2021 (MST)

Yeah that's me, sorry lol, I'm new here so I've been a bit confused. Apologies about any problems I made. I just found out about the talk page yesterday. So I'll post anything here instead.

No worries. Like I said above, I'd love to see you add to this wiki, I just ask that you not try to overword features, as most things have been revised time and again to make sure they are consistent with the rest of 5e. If there's anything you'd like to add, feel free to add it yourself, although it may be revised. --Ref3rence (talk) 09:15, 19 February 2021 (MST)

Understood. Thanks