Talk:Elemental Swordsman (4e Class)

Any constructive criticism and balance tips would be nice. Also if anyone could proofread this and point out my grammatical mistakes it would be really nice of you. This is still in progress currently. --TechyKat (talk) 15:02, 24 June 2012 (MDT)

For the one-handed training trait, "if you are wielding one blade in both hands it gains the defensive keyword" doesn't work. A defensive weapon only grants you a bonus while you wield it in one hand and wield another melee weapon in your other hand. I've changed it to something else. Marasmusine (talk) 03:39, 26 June 2012 (MDT)

Comparing the two styles:

• One Blade. Longsword in both hands. +1 damage (versatile) and +1 shield AC (style)
• Two Weapon. Longsword and short sword. +1 damage (two-weapon fighting) and +1 attack (style)

The two weapon fighter has more options through feats here. Whilst either style can improve their attack (weapon expertise) and damage (weapon focus, or bastard sword training), the two-weapon fighter can opt get a better AC (Parrying dagger training, two-weapon defense) whilst the one-blade user is stuck. I think she deserves an extra something. Also got to see how this interacts with small creatures. Marasmusine (talk) 04:02, 26 June 2012 (MDT)

I originally thought that to ofset the bonus the two weapon style gets with a -1 to AC but then thought it was too much of a downside. Thanks alot for changing some of the wording I think it reads much better now. I was thinking that if you get the One blade style it could also apply to much larger weapons like greatswords and full blades, so you trade much higher damage potential for less chance to hit. What do you think would be fair?

--TechyKat (talk) 16:36, 26 June 2012 (MDT)

Hmm, that's true. In my example above the one-blader could take a greatsword instead, I think that's fair. The powers themselves might have different bonuses based on style too. Marasmusine (talk) 02:09, 1 July 2012 (MDT)

Yeah I am adding in the bonus from style in powers a bit slower because I didn't think about it when I first thought of the class, thanks for the input. --TechyKat (talk) 08:25, 1 July 2012 (MDT)

Elemental Callings

Okay, I've edited the page with my proposed changes to elemental calling, here's my rationales:

• Combined the tables for Power of the Elements and Elemental Callings
• Made the language clear as I can: Before, the terms calling, invocation, spirit and aura were used interchangeably. Now the effect is a "Calling".
• Reduced the bonuses to non-AC-defenses. At epic tier, these can stack up to +6 in total; a "defender" fighter still only gets +2 to fortitude at this point. I've added some damage resistances to make up for this, but I also suggest a baseline +1 fortitude.
• Added a 'default' calling called Primordial Spirit. You could make a feat that lets the player have one of the other Callings as a default.
• For Power of the Elements, I've made the conditions under which the bonus damage is gained different for each calling: With the default Primordial Spirit, it's just a flat +2 damage bonus. With the others, it's +1d8 under certain circumstances, but they relate to the other bonuses.
  • The effects stack so there's no need to increase the bonuses at higher tiers.
  • I did improve the die type from d6 to d8, because the callings still need activating.
  • We should probably also make it clear that you can get the damage bonus for the attack roll for the power that activated the Calling (for example if you use Fury of the Fire, you get the +2 fire damage bonus against enemies in that burst).
  • To that end, if you decide to keep the Spirit of the Winds charging damage bonus, I suggest allowing powers like Wild Winds to be used instead of a basic melee at the end of a charge.
• Currently, the powers invoke a calling for a number of turns (2 + a modifier). I've written that invoked callings should last until the end of the encounter (which typically last between 4 and 6 turns anyway) or 5 minutes (for out-of-encounter usage).

I hope you'll agree with my changes, I think it makes for an interesting class. I won't take offense if you revert, but please consider the balance issues I've pointed out. Marasmusine (talk) 05:31, 9 July 2012 (MDT)

I really think that the way you set it out is really good and it is better than the original idea that I thought of. I like it quite alot and it fits how the class feels to me more as well. The only thing is I was thinking that for the fire power, it might be 1d8 extra damage if you bloodied an opponent or have been attacked by an opponent with the added +2 fire damage as a baseline addition as the fire is intended to do the most damage with lack of mobility and defence of the others. The water calling I think should be 1d8 damage if you have shifted in the last turn but I'm not sure how that would play. Thanks alot and I'll definately get to work changing the wording of the powers. TechyKat (talk) 15:48, 9 July 2012 (MDT)

You can change the conditions for gaining a damage bonus, bearing in mind these guidelines: If a player is certain to meet the conditions, the bonus should be about +3 (e.g. 1d6 for hunter's quarry, only requires a minor action beforehand); if it's roughly half the time, it's about +7 (e.g. 2d6 for sneak attack, although I think the designers underestimated how often rogues can get combat advantage!). Actually, the conditions we've used are in the "half the time" category, but I had toned it down because I was worried about how they would stack. The condition of "shifted last turn" could almost be guaranteed by the player, so lower the damage accordingly. Marasmusine (talk) 16:25, 9 July 2012 (MDT)

I see your point, I'll leave it as it is. Would being able to stack 4 of them at lvl 21 and above be overkill you think because it seems like it could be very rare you will get all of the conditions at one time. TechyKat (talk) 17:19, 9 July 2012 (MDT)

Powers, Player Choice and Control of the Class Features (With added fluff concerns).

I was looking at this recently and I was thinking, some of the conditions for the elemental seem a bit counter intuitive such as fire trying to goad people into attacking him even though he is quite squishy and it feels like some of the conditions are slightly out of your control at least until you get to a higher level (apart from water and earth, I feel they are nearly perfect). Also the powers kinda lock you into set paths (which only exacerbates my concerns with the elemental damage.) As they are based on different attributes. If they were swapped to all being strength or dexterity would it make much difference? (Only problem I feel would be fluffwise which kinda sucks, but eh.) Or should I just get to work writing more powers? Also instead of having powers tailored to each element at each set, instead rewriting them to instead have bonuses based on your currently manifested elemental spirit? The problem I see with this is that if they are designed in a vacuum there could be some unfortunate crossover into some OP interactions if there is stacking. It would be basically a rewrite of the classes powers though. TechyKat (talk) 20:27, 30 June 2013 (MDT)

I'll take a closer look soon, but my preference is for a class to have a single primary ability score, then the options/builds to be based on secondary ability scores. Marasmusine (talk) 00:07, 2 July 2013 (MDT)

I thought of a few alternatives, I believe that using a highly modulated power list would promote choice better, I thought of a quick example.

Example Power	Elemental Swordsman 4e Power Type::Attack 1
<Fluff Goes Here>
4e Power Usage::Encounter  Martial, Arcane, Weapon
4e Power Action Type::Standard Action	Melee Weapon
Target: One Creature.
Attack: Dexterity Vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier
Dependent on your currently called spirit, this power has secondary effects.
Wind Spirit: This power can be used after a charge instead of a melee basic attack and on a hit you repeat the above attack as a move action. Earth Spirit: On a hit this power knocks the target prone and deals extra damage equal to 1[W]. Water Spirit: On a hit this power allows you to shift a number of squares equal to your Wisdom modifier. Fire Spirit: The heat of your blade sears your foe, on a hit you trigger Power of the Elements bonus damage even if you would otherwise not trigger it and you radiate an aura of fire for 1 round dealing fire damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

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Obviously this is just an example and probably isn't very balanced. It is supposed to be that the swordsman is the part that pulls off the sweet moves and your skill with magic only enhances it. Your thoughts? TechyKat (talk) 21:40, 6 July 2013 (MDT)

Are the enhancements going to be similar for every power, or vary a lot? I'm just thinking that the spirits could effectively be stances that mutate the way powers work (vaguely like the Slayer's stances), and that would save a lot of writing. Marasmusine (talk) 00:29, 11 July 2013 (MDT)