Talk:Dirgesinger (5e Class)

Hi, I'm the creator of this class, and I would like to discuss it so that I can balance it properly. I've read the template, and I would like to understand if it referes only to the first levels or to the whole class structure. This is not my first homebrew class, and I also picked the Bard class as a guideline in order to avoid giving too much power to it, so I think we should be able to find a way to get it done properly

I'll try to be in touch --Elros (talk) 07:21, 26 August 2019 (MDT)Elros

Hi, Elros. Regarding your concern on the tag, it references the entire class structure. So, as a fullcaster, for every new spell level it gains with new slots, it is for balancing reasons that the class gets no new features with the slot. Son the levels where you gain a new level of spell slot, the feature column cell for that level should be empty. There are slight exceptions for features that are relatively minimal, but those are few and far for classes and no more than two would usually be used. Hope this helped.--Yanied (talk) 08:55, 22 October 2019 (MDT)

Hello there, thanks for the answer. After the first month, I didn't think I'd get a reply, so I stopped checking the talk section of the class. Regarding what you said, I understand the concern about the "power level" when you get new spell slots and simultaneously new abilities. That is why I tried to give something like that only the first 5 levels and after that nothing but maybe a new song or a small power up to certain abilities that the class already had. I also used the bard class as a guide to do so, making sure not to give too much or too little while leveling up. In fact, until level 5, the class does not have anything actually offensive or truly menacing given by the abilities, even if it gets lots of them (like the bard does). So, I'd like to know what here is seen as "too much" and should be removed or posticipated with the levels, so that I can try to adjust the class without killing its flavour. I really like it, and I'm currently playing it in a campaign with my friends (we are level 3 now), and for what I've seen so far, it works like a decent debuffer and looks balanced. Thanks again for the attention. --Elros (talk) 18:11, 13 January 2020 (MST)--Elros (talk)

No problem. The other issue I think that GD saw when he tagged the class was that the songs you mention as being minor don't seem to have a usage limit. It just says that "A X save negates the effect and makes the character immune to that dirgesinger’s X ability for 24 hours," which is not only incorrectly worded, but also does not stop the dirgesinger from repeatedly using it for other enemies in combat. The songs are also timed with unconventional durations, counting rounds. I am also wondering how well defined a "mind-affecting ability" is.

I see the inspiration from the bard class though. But rather than just increasing the dice like the source class does (which is very minimal), this has a lot more songs that can be powerfully combined with the spells it gets, especially if a lot of the spells are defined as "mind-affecting."--Yanied (talk) 07:21, 14 January 2020 (MST)

The sentence "A X save negates the effect and makes the character immune to that dirgesinger’s X ability for 24 hours," is taken from the 3.0 manual "Libris Mortis" directly from the dirgesinger prestige class, and it sounds okey to me. What other words would you use? Also, what do you mean with "repetedly using a song for other enemies in combat"? Because if you mean that I can switch target after the first one pass the save, it's incorrect. I can only target one creature (or more of them at higher level) with a single use of a song. If I want to target more, I must expend another use. I'm using round counting because an amount of time like 1 minute would be too much, and there would be no point in playing a song for more then one round. On the other side, certain songs need to last a little bit longer than just the time you spend playing them, because at higher levels you have much more powerful songs and it would be pointless to spend time playing lower level songs. Regarding the "mind-affecting" tag, it refers to all abilities which act on the mind of a creature, so basically everything that requires a Int, Cha or Wis save. I'm still not sure how powerful the "Song of Sorrow is", because at low levels it does not impact the game so much. In case of it being too powerful, it can easly be debuffed by lowering the range, the number of targets, the rounds, or the "mind-affecting" tag. Regarding the power level of the class, yes, it is more powerful than the bard itself. --Elros (talk) 09:04, 14 January 2020 (MST)

The sentence itself is fine. What I mean is there is no limit on the amount of times some of the songs can be performed, because as I read through the later songs, they are not all detailed under the Requiem feature, which has the limit on use. The monk class, for example, references ki points in the original ki feature to keep a limit on the features that come after. If the later songs are part of Requiem's expansion, that needs to be clearer, maybe by using more subtitles.

And just so that you don't sound like you're round counting, why not make it a number of rounds equal to X stat modifier?

Just to avoid any confusion, it should probably just be stated what the "mind-effecting" tag is, rather than using the term, unless you mean to specify certain effects of magic, like divination or the command spell. It also doesn't make the most sense as it is written because it says not all songs, even if they require those saves you say, are mind affecting. Yet, I think that music is very mind-affecting.

I also see another caveat here where a lot of the songs don't seem to require saves from the opponent at all(?!) That makes it very powerful because then creatures that have legendary resistance can't even combat it. Like, song of harvest literally could get you out of combat with any ethereal undead like a ghost ("spirit" is not a mechanical term). Also, 10 rounds=1 minute.

The class flavor is very good, but I don't know about some of the features that are worded a bit less mechanically, and more flavor.--Yanied (talk) 07:08, 15 January 2020 (MST)

Mmmmh, probably I just wasnt' clear enough, even tho I thought I covered these point pretty well. So, let me explain. All songs fall under the "requiem" feature, so I only have a limited amount of songs I can play daily before having to rest (lvl/2+PB). So, if I play the same song 5 times, or I play one song but I try to affect more targets than I could with a single use for 4 times in a row or if I play 5 different songs, it's all the same, I consumed 5 uses. The round counting change from song to song because certain ones are too strong for lasting so many rounds after I stopped playing, while others, like the Sorrow one, are useful only if they last long even after I stopped (since it is a debuff aimed to weak the enemy before using other songs). The mind-affecting tag comes from dnd 3.5, where all spells and abilities which affected the mind of a creature, instead of the body, would have that tag at the end of the description. So basically, everything that has a save based on Int, Cha, Wis is a mind-affecting ability. I'll do as you say and specify this below the tag. Regarding the music as a mind-affecting ability and the saving throws, I think I can safely say that you just didn't read properly the abilities, because every single song has a sentence at the end where it says what save you have to make in order to resist the effect. It is also written in some of them (like the Corruption one) that the song is not a mind-effect. If you check, you will see that that song requires a Cos save instead of a Wis. Regarding the spirits and the ghost, you are right, I didn't notice that the word I used was too vague, because I meant that ability to work on ghosts and dead people. I hope to have covered all the points that weren't clear --Elros (talk) 08:16, 15 January 2020 (MST)

Oh, I figured it was from another edition. As for the songs saves, the save is typically written before effects as shown in traits like dragonborn or features in spells like sacred fire. The saves are also not detailed as to what they are (if they are the same as your spellcasting save, that needs to be enumerated), and I glanced them over completely looking for numbers.--Yanied (talk) 08:29, 15 January 2020 (MST)

It is written in the Requiem feature that all songs have DC equal to the spellcasting one, I didn't think I needed to specify it on every single song, since they all follow the same rule. Also, I'm used to the 3.5 language, where the save is written at the end. I'll try to copy the format that you pointed me out. --Elros (talk) 09:02, 15 January 2020 (MST)

Oh, alright. It just goes back to how I couldn't tell the songs were all part of Requiem then.--Yanied (talk) 11:53, 15 January 2020 (MST)

Okey, so: I edited all songs and melodies so that the save is written in a 5e format and also fixed the save DC problem. Plus, I debuffed the song of sorrow, taking away the forth step, considering that -20 feet is a lot for a full armor enemy, and you already have a way to freeze an enemy on the spot if you choose the cult of horrors. Is there anything else that I can do to improve the class?--Elros (talk) 06:06, 16 January 2020 (MST)

Oh neat. I'm honestly still iffy about the "mind-affecting ability" because try as I may, I do believe it doesn't work as well in 5e, particularly for this class. For song of Sorrow, which is the only one I see that would drastically affect the balance since it imposes disadvantage on all charisma, wisdom and intelligence, I'd suggest just having it say it does that to the three saves rather than say mind affecting ability. Thus, the song of corruption, which requires a constitution save, would be automatically exempt. Melody of horror and other songs that do require cha, int or wis saves then would essentially stack with Song of Sorrow, but it would help with clearing up any extra-edition terminology.

The round counting thing still needs to be adjusted since durations in 5e do not usually round count.--Yanied (talk) 07:18, 16 January 2020 (MST)

Sweet, I'll do as you say. Also, I think I'll limit the effect of Song of Sorrow only to Wis checks, instead of all three, so to make it less abusable at higher levels. Regarding the round counting, what do you suggest to do? I honestly have no idea how to balance it without nerfing the songs a hell lot (by removing the extra time) or powering them up by saying that all effects last for a minute (and this would make all songs kinda broken) --Elros (talk) 16:00, 17 January 2020 (MST)

I suggest using modifier or proficiency bonus round counting. So the language would be like "for a number of turns equal to X modifier (or your proficiency bonus, or class level, or something along those lines, you pick)".--Yanied (talk) 08:17, 18 January 2020 (MST)

Done :). I also removed completely the extension of the "song of corruption", because at high levels you would have been able to inflict something like 5 rounds of free damage. It's too much in my opinion --Elros (talk) 07:21, 19 January 2020 (MST)

Nice work!--Yanied (talk) 13:29, 19 January 2020 (MST)

Any other suggestion for balancing the class? --Elros (talk) 18:16, 19 January 2020 (MST)

At the moment, not exactly. I feel like one or two of the songs could be moved down to the subclass, just to decrease the amount of features on the main class... But I think other people should also chime in on this.--Yanied (talk) 11:20, 20 January 2020 (MST)

All right, I guess I'll be waiting and see what it feels like to play it at higher levels --Elros (talk) 11:48, 20 January 2020 (MST)

Minor Issues

The following are some minor problems i find with the class, and i thought it was good to share with you:

Standardization

I think that you could address the reader instead of the class on the article, meaning writing "You" instead of "the dirgesinger" through the text.

Also, i see that some features use the wording "per rest", "per day", "per fight" and some features have the "round" as a duration. The first three i have changed myself, but the use of round as a duration may have been a deliberate choice, but is not often used (i can't think about any class feature that has round as a duration, is usually either "turn" or a time limit).

"Echo" and "Commemoration" features

Both features states that the dirgesinger "can't take any other action in the same round...". This means that, when using this feature, a dirgesinger can't take bonus actions, reactions or move? Or only means that this features takes an action to use?

"Ressonance" feature

This feature can be used "Once per fight". I don't think that any feature has "per fight" as a recharging criteria for a feature. Also, "per fight" is not a well defined term in the D&D 5e mechanics.

I've written on another feature that uses this same recharging criteria, "Commemmoration", the following: "A dirgesinger can use this feature once. When the dirgesinger roll initiative and have no uses of this feature, it regains one use.", as a suggestion, resembling some other features with the same writing.

Anastacio (talk) 13:39, 6 June 2020 (MDT)

Hi ,thanks for the comments about the class and its issues, I'll try to cover all of them.

About the adressing I tried to use the most common way to do so in the 3.5 manuals, which is mentioning the class instead of the player, but if you think it could be more user friendly to change it, I don't think it would cause me any problems. I see that in the 5e they preferred to adress the player

The use of round probably comes from my uses of the word when I speak italian with my friends, since we usually use that term. I'll change it to "turn" since I noticed that in the english manuals they use it too.

About "Echo" and "Commemoration you got it as intended: The dirgesinger can't do anything else in the same turn it uses one of those features, like moving, casting, attacking, reacting ecc...

About the last one, it's a terminology used in 3.5. I didn't notice that in 5e they changed to what you actually wrote above. I'll change that too. Thanks for all the tips :) --Elros (talk) 07:34, 12 July 2020 (MDT)