Star Wars/Fridge

Fridge Brilliance

General

• Who is the biggest hero of the Original Trilogy? Is it Luke? Han? Ben Kenobi? Leia? R2-D2? No, it is the Imperial officer who says not to shoot the escape pod containing Threepio and Artoo at the beginning of A New Hope. Had they shot down the pod, just to be sure, Artoo and Threepio would never have reached Tatooine, they would never have found their way to Luke and he would still be stuck as a farmboy in Tatooine, the special message would never have reached Luke or Ben Kenobi and as such Princess Leia would never have been rescued and the Rebels would never have the plans to destroy the Death Star, Han Solo would never have been hired by Ben and never subsequently joined the Rebellion, and, further down the line, Luke would have never discovered his destiny, trained with Yoda, found out that Leia (whom he never woul've met) was his sister and that Vader (whom he never would've met either) was his father and so on. If not for that Imperial Officer, the events of the entire Original Trilogy and the Expanded Universe beyond that would never have happened at all.
  • From that perspective, however, Leia's the biggest hero. The officer would have shot it down if he had known it contained occupants; he was duped. So Leia's the hero for knowing that she could trick the Imperials by firing off empty escape pods at random, then hiding the all-important droids in one of them.
    • From this perspective you can thank Obi Wan for all this, since he allowed the Organa family to adopt Leia and no doubt raise her into the tough-as-nails princess she is.
    • You guys are failing to understand what the definition of 'heroic' is. It definitely isn't some action by the character that indirectly caused a chain of events leading to victory decades later. 'Heroic' is most easily defined by accomplishing incredible feats with great courage in the face of impossible odds, fatal dangers, or horrifying terrors. While Obi-Wan for example of course is a hero, he was not the hero responsible for victory in a New Hope (if we insist on identifying on key hero). By this definition it could only be Leia or Luke.
      • Exactly, by the logic of whoever started this, the heroes that made things worse in the long run should be considered a villain.
    • From that perspective, the real hero of the OT doesn't even appear in it, being Qui-Gonn Jinn, without whom Obi-Wan would not have been the man he was. Although one could argue that this means the true hero is Yoda, for training Count Dooku who trained Qui-Gonn... oh dear.
      • except that the OT doesn't really have a protagonist by the definition of the word.
  • For what it's worth, though, even in the framework of the movies, the pod being shot down, destroying R2 and 3PO would still not necessarily imply Luke remaining a farm boy; for all we know, Obi-Wan could have decided to train Luke as a Jedi otherwise. Let's just leave it at that... - neoYTPism
    • Or the Force could have something to do with it.
  • Hello, this is the Troper who started all of it - after reading through the comments, I realised that the pod not getting shot down is one of many crossroads, turning points and pivots in the whole Star Wars plot. There are several others sprinkled across the films. It's a little like with alternate-history fiction - there's a "divergence point" where things take a different turn. If the pod was shot down, things would have been affected - some things could have continued to progress as they do - but it's not the end of the galaxy, so to speak.
    • One more word on the pod not getting shot down: This troper always took it to be along the same lines as Vader wanting the prisoners alive: If they just blew it up, they would never know for sure what might or might not be concealed in it. By leaving the escape pods intact and then collecting them, they could see exactly what information the rebels had collected.
  • In a New Hope Luke explicitly says he wants to join the Imperial Storm Troopers, so the droids are shot down, he becomes a storm trooper, The Emporor and/or Vader detect the "force is strong in this one." and well...
  • Well not exactly. He says he wants to go off to the academy, not because he wants to be a storm trooper, but because it's his only ticket off Tatooine. He later says he doesn't like the Empire either.
  • Still the point still stands, had the droids been shot down, Luke would have wound up a Stormtrooper, which puts him in the sights of th Sith, would he become Sith Lord Skywalker, be killed, or realize his destiny still?
    • He wouldn't necessarily have become a stormtrooper. After all, Obi-Wan's still around, presumably keeping a moderately close watch on him, and Obi-Wan definitely knows that it would be a Bad Idea to have Luke go off to Imperial Academy.
    • All four of the above Tropers are wrong. Luke wouldn't become a Stormtrooper, he'd be a PILOT (the Academy in question, to which Luke's friend Biggs went as well, training TIE pilots and all. what a ridiculous idea, I know)
    • Of course, even Han went to the Academy and later ended up doing other things. If Luke never ran into Vader or the Emperor (and it's a large Empire, with a very large military), they quite possibly might have never run into him before he found a reason and opportunity to defect or end his term of service. And of course, there is still that old wildcard, Obi-Wan.
      • There's no way he could not draw the attention of Vader or The Emperor, though. At some point, either word would reach them about a "Skywalker" from Tatooine, or they would sense a disturbance in The Force, leading them to him.
      • Why? There are probably lots of Skywalkers on Tatooine.
    • Actually Luke said he wanted to join "the academy", not necessarily become a stormtrooper. This troper finds it much more likely for Luke to wind up an Imperial pilot. Or at least start down that track before the name Skywalker becomes well known enough to get someone's attention upstairs...
      • Isn't Luke a little short to be a Stormtrooper?
      • The radio broadcast, which included cut scenes with Biggs, makes it clear the "Imperial Space Academy" trains pilots for both military and civilian purposes. Biggs had been assigned to a civilian freighter from which he was planning to jump ship.
• The Imperials fire green lasers, and the Rebels fire Red. Green electromagnetic waves have a higher frequency than red waves, and so have more energy. Therefore, as expected, the Imperials have superior weapons.
• Not sure if it was intended from the beginning, but it makes sense after Episode V Vader is Dutch for father.
• Fridge Logic, as Jon Stewart pointed out on The Daily Show: In the January 5, 2010 episode, George Lucas was the guest on the show. After Jon introduced him, he started bombarding George with questions as to how Darth Vader and Palpatine sensed no disturbance in The Force when Leia was brought to Alderaan by her adoptive father.
  • Why would they? Leia wasn't doing anything, and they both thought Anakin's kid was dead at this point (and knew nothing about there being twins), so they wouldn't have been looking for her in any case. They only seemed to notice Luke when he actually started fighting them and training in the Force.
• The Death Star can travel through hyperspace. Otherwise it would take eons to get from Alderan to Yavin IV.
  • That's a given, isn't it? Otherwise how would it be an effective weapon if it took it hundreds of years to get from place to place?
• Initially, I thought the title "Phantom Menace" referred to the threat of the Sith, and perhaps it does. But watching the movie more in depth, it also refers to Palpatine's scheme, which was all about creating a crisis so that he could become Supreme Chancellor. His original plan was probably
  • Um, you realize that "Sith" and "Palpatine" are synonymous? As in the threat of the Sith is actually Palpatine (lord of the Sith) becoming the leader of the Republic..
    • This Troper thinks the original troper was referring to the Separatists as the phantom (i.e., not really there) menace, the real threat being Palpatine.
  • Get into the Senate as Palpatine, while getting in good graces with the Trade Federation (and others) via a combination of promises/bribes/blackmail.
  • Once in the Senate, take a populist, pro-government stance, favoring policies like the "taxation on trade routes" mentioned in the opening movie scrawl that are guaranteed to earn him the ire of powerful companies like the Trade Federation.
  • As Sidious, get them to not only do the equivalent of a protest/strike by blockading Naboo (his home world), but to go further, and invade.
  • Once the Trade Federation has invaded, get them to kill Queen Amidala.
  • Use the outrage generated from her murder to call for a vote of no-confidence in Chancellor Valorum without looking ambitious/greedy.
  • Break the blockade.
    • As a kid, I always thought Maul was the literal PHANTOM (other-worldly demon creature) Menace, which is actually another testament to the brilliant multiple-meaning of the title.
  • I always thought it was referring to Anakin Skywalker. In hindsight this really has 2 aspects to it 1) the shadow/phantom aspect that Anakin's future would loom over the world of the jedi, and 2) the stain that Anakin Skywalker (played both as a boy and as a wangsty teenager) would leave on the franchise.
• It's quite ingenious when you think about it, and the only thing that made it fail was Qui-Gon sensing with the Force that Padme's life was in danger, and convincing her to flee. As a testament to his political skills, Palpatine managed to still make his plan work by getting her to call for the vote of no-confidence in his stead.-Bass
• When Anakin's stepfather is relating to him the story of his mother's capture in AOTC, he says "30 of us went out there, four of us came back". Randomly-selected to point to how grievous the losses were? Not so: the first attack on the Death Star in ANH has 30 fighters attack the massive space station, of which only four return. What's more, Cleat Lars was wounded, losing one of his four limbs, the means by which humanoids move around...and during the trench run Luke lost one of his four engines, the means by which his fighter moved around.
  • This is only one of some ten million stealth references to the original trilogy strategically placed throughout the prequel trilogy as part of the Anvilicious Foreshadowing. Having said that, some of them - including the example above - are sheer brilliance.
• I just noticed something about the titles of the Star Wars films. Compare:
  • The Phantom Menace - A New Hope, both refer to a person of importance.
  • Attack of The Clones - The Empire Strikes Back, both refer to attacking.
  • Revenge of The Sith - Return of The Jedi, both refer to an old power coming back. - HG131
    • I can do you one better: Return of the Jedi was originally called "Revenge of the Jedi". It was changed at the last minute. You can find promotional posters with the "revenge" title.
    • The Phantom Menace is actually a fairly clever title if you consider it from the perspective of viewers introduced to the movie post-prequels. They wouldn't be going into the films predisposed to the notion that Palpatine is the true "phantom menace."
• While I was always far more forgiving toward the prequels than many people, one part that seemed too dumb to put up with was Anakin's conception: Jesus rip off? Born of The Force? Gimme a break. But then Palpatine explained his master's preoccupation, and the stupidest part of the prequel trilogy suddenly became the most ingenious. -- Eric DVH
  • What's more, because of Anakin being a product of Darth Plagueis' research (and George Lucas has more or less stated this is canon), Anakin is essentially born of the Dark Side, making his eventual transformation into Darth Vader a sort of dark subversion of the Crystal Dragon Jesus trope.
  • The extended materials extend the quality of it even further. Palpatine killed his master because he believed that his master intended to conceive a child using the Force, and that the child would subsequently kill Palpatine. Palpatine was right. --Wodan46
    • My uncle described a moment of Fridge Brilliance he had with that same conversation. Palpatine described the perspectives of the Jedi and the Sith; the Jedi are inherently selfless, forsaking personal things to benefit the Republic while the Sith are inherently selfish, "Treachery is the way of the Sith." Yet the Sith learned to control the force to create life and prevent death. The Jedi found a way to achieve immortality for themselves after death. Both are essentially contrary to the philosophical beliefs of the two factions, one discovering a power to help others and one discovering a power to benefit themselves. --KJ Mackley
    • I was also confused by the contradiction of the ultimate expressions of the Light and Dark sides of the Force. It didn't make sense that the ultimate expression of the Light side was a form of immortality for oneself, while the ultimate expression of the Dark side was a technique to create life and preserve others. Then it occurred to me: the power of the Light side isn't about benefiting yourself; it's about becoming a part of the living Force itself to act as a guide for others. The main reason Force Ghosts exist is to guide the living. It's the ultimate act of selflessness, helping others even from beyond. OTOH, the ultimate power of the Dark side, creating life, represents the complete subjugation of the Force. It grants the Sith power over both life and death, essentially making him/her into a god. The Light is about acceptance and harmony with the Force, becoming part of it, and the Dark is about defying and controlling it. - M84
      • The whole Force Ghost thing, when you put it that way, is fairly reminiscent of the Buddhist concept of Bodhisattvas, people who are virtuous enough to get out of the reincarnation cycle and move on to Nirvana, but choose to stay behind and help others achieve Nirvana, which is a very interesting paralell with all the other Buddhist elements incorporated into Jedi Philosophy. I could be wrong about some of the Buddhism stuff, as I'm remembering it from a class I took four years ago, and I only took the time to use Wikipedia for spell-checking, not fact-checking.
      • That's not supprising given that Lucas originally baised the idea of the force on Taoist philosophy, much of which has been combined with buddhism over the years. some of the parralls can be seen in the light/dark creation/destruction duality (yin and yang). the force ghosts (in taoist philosophy one who lives true to the tao ascends to a higher plane and becomes an immortal) and so on.
      • It even matches older expanded universe materials like the Jedi and Sith codes. The last line of the Jedi code is There is no death, there is the Force; while the Sith Code is The Force shall free me. Jedi accept death and the cycle of life, but join with the force to help others. The Sith create life and master nature, breaking the cycle of life.
• Little worried I'm misusing the phrase, but here goes: Jar Jar Binks. I was indifferent at first, then annoyed, then I watched The Phantom Menace again three days ago. I realized Jar Jar was not an idiot, nor hyper, nor a total goofball, just a poor, clumsy guy who was always in the wrong way at the wrong time. He was even capable of solemnity, at certain points, even in Episode I. Now, I actually respect Jar Jar as a decent member of the group! And then, in a further bit of Fridge Brilliance, I realized that Lucas probably didn't mean anything by using semi-real accents for certain species! These races likely didn't have Basic as their first language. They're probably taught something else during their childhood. The language shapes the mouth, and gives the accent, and do you expect a writer to make an accent up out of thin air? He's going to borrow from something he's seen! So no offense was meant! -- Lhikan
  • Yeah well, lots of people are racist and sexist and all those other things without meaning to be. And I say that as an avowed prequel fan who never hated Jar Jar. --Tricky Pacifist
  • I'm a little on the first Troper's side, given that I figured out the same idea on my own before ever seeing TPM.
  • I just figured Jar Jar was clumsy on land because he's an aquatic creature. Whenever he's in the water, he's swift and certain in his movements. (at least in the tv series, I can't remember if he's ever in the water in the movies.)
  • He's in the water in TPM when leading the Jedi to the Gungan city. He's fairly good at swimming there. He also has a magnificent dive.
  • The problem with this theory is that his natural habitat isn't water, it's air (remember the Gungan city? Sure it was underwater, but they lived in air). Also, the movie specifically states he was banished from there because he was clumsy.
  • My father is not a fan of the PT, but he liked the CG-animation that went into making Jar-Jar. He thought as a interacting being, Jar-Jar absolutely worked.
    • It really did at that: people hate Jar-Jar for being a a scrappy klutz used to deliver unfunny comic relief and for the unfortunate implications of his accent, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain that his F Xs were poor, or that he wasn't convincing when he interacted with the non-CG characters.
  • I always took Jar Jar as a metaphor for what the prequels are about. In Phantom Menace he is comedy relief mostly, showing that despite what is going on this is a rather good time, people are happy and able to live. In Attack of the Clones he grows out of it a little, become more responsible, mirroring what is happening in the galaxy. And by Revenge when everything has gone to crap, Jar Jar is no longer comedy relief at all.
  • In an early interview with the "actor" playing Jar Jar Binks, the actor mentioned that he had Jamaican relatives and was having fun doing a lighthearted parody of them as his inspiration for the character. Is it racist if you are joking about your own race?
    • And who would expect a small town boy like George Lucas to recognize the Unfortunate Implications of it?
• At first I thought the midichlorians in Star Wars was a stupid way to explain away the Force. But then I realized that Star Wars is a combination of science fiction and fantasy, with your wizards flying in starships and whatnot. So, the magic of the Force having scientific roots is very fitting, and it explains why everybody in the Star Wars universe doesn't use the Force, because they can't. Even then, the Force is not generated by the midichlorians, the Force is still that mystical energy that surrounds and binds us, but the best way for humans to use it is to quiet your mind and listen to your midichlorians, who just happen to be the best conductors of the energetic Force. -washington 213
  • The whole midichlorian thing always bothered me too until I thought about it. The way I interpreted it was that the force was all about binding the universe together, symbiosis and balance and what not, and that midichlorians were an expression of that. Without midichlorians, sentient life would have no concept of the force, and without life forms as a host the midichlorians could not survive. For the force to work, you need both of them supporting each other. The force is still mystical, as the midichlorians are merely the connection, but I found it to be a very meaningful plot point. -darksider
    • It would have been even more meaningful of a plot point if George Lucas hand't lost his nerve and kept the elements of the script which dealt with the racial animosity between the Naboo humans and the Gungans. In the end, the two overcome their differences and work together to defeat the Trade Federation. The theme is still present in the final cut, but because the explicitly racial element was removed, one has to pick up on bits and pieces of subtext and probably read some of the supporting material before the Fridge Logic comes together. And this is why George Lucas should not direct his own scripts.
  • And I recently had a Fridge Brilliance moment about people saying midichlorians explains away the Force: some of the denizens of the Star Wars universe think this. How could Han not believe in the Force even though he grew up in the Old Republic? He thinks it's all midichlorians! -Duke
    • I saw that as a(n accidental, in retrospect) subversion of Sci-Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale: Even in the Prequel Era, when the Jedi are relatively numerous, there are more planets in the Republic than there are Jedi. Obviously not everyone in the universe will be aware of Jedi, and not everyone who has heard of them will believe that their exploits are more than rumor.
  • I don't understand why people get so worked up about midichlorians. They are NOT mutually exclusive with the Force being spiritual/religious in nature. For example, let's say God created mankind - does this change the fact that humans have DNA and are made up of atoms? If you hate the fact it makes Jedi "predestined", well sorry to break it to you but they were that way anyway previously, they just said 'force sensitive' instead of having midichlorians. In fact, they did test for Jedi before the midichlorians were mentioned in canon, and one must assume they had SOME way of scientifically testing for it in children. In fact, it would be sort of ridiculous if the genetic makeup/DNA/atoms/whatever (not a scientist here) was NOT impacted by being force sensitive. I would find it strange they test for being a jedi without actually having a substance/particle/whatever to test for. (i.e. if they didn't use the midichlorian explanation)
  • A big problem with it for me is that it made being a Jedi predetermined instead of a matter of choice or skill, down to how powerful the Jedi is. That pretty much neuters the religious aspect of it. -Impudent Infidel
  • I'm partial to the explanation that midichlorians aren't in any way force generators. A high midichlorian count is simply a symptom of somebody being highly sensitive to the force. - Skarmory The PG
    • On that note, one could argue that your midichlorian count makes it easier not only to learn the ways of the Force, but to also fall to the Dark Side (sensitivity to the Force and all that).
  • or it can simply NOT be Midichlorians. Think about it. if the Force is comparable to a religion they might not know everything about the Force so they use midichlorians to try to make since of it. The prequels were all about talking about the Old Jedi's foolishness
  • I realized the reason I hate the midichlorian explanation is because we already had an explanation. Yoda said that the Force was a field created from all living things. That's fine- it's mystical and far out there, but we've already seen it move things around and guide Luke and what-not. Now, we're told that somehow it's bacteria? We've already seen bacteria in our universe, and it doesn't do any of the things the Force does. It's just like in Star Trek when the writers use Technobabble terms you recognize- it breaks the illusion.
    • I agree with this fullheartly. Midichlorians make things far, FAR worse. Because how do THEY interact with the force? And how do they share that interaction with the living beings? What of force spirits and places with Force "imprint", like the dark cave on Dagobah? Midichlorians not only answer nothing, they only make handwaving the Force (pun POSSIBLY intended :P) more difficult.
    • Ah, but what if the Midichlorian are Bacteria who are strong with the Force? I always interpreted Midichlorians as being an indicator, rather than a cause. Midichlorians like the Force, therefore they live in people who are strong with the Force. What always amused me about them was how their names sound passingly similar to Mitochrondrion, the organelles in cells that are described as "cellular power plants."
      • The parallel between midichlorians and mitochondria is actually brilliant. Mitochondria are symbiotic bacteria that have are capable of oxidative energy production, which the host cells cannot do on their own. In other words, they provide access for their host through symbiosis to a universal source of energy (the chemical bond in the oxygen molecule) that happens to be the most powerful form of chemical energy in the universe that is available to organic life.
    • EXACTLY. Midichlorians are not the Force. They can only communicate with it. They basically do the same thing on a microscopic level what we thought Luke and others were doing in the original movies.--Tapol.
    • Think of them more as sense organs, like ears or eyes. 1 eye or ear allows you to see light/hear sound, 2 allows you to triangulate. Insects have compound eyes, prey animals like rabbits/deer have them either side of their head instead of both up front for near 360 degree vision. Midichlorians allow you to sense the force, the more you have, the closer to compound eyes/360 vision you have.
    • I always interpreted the Force to be the active force representation of the Unified Field Theory - i.e. it is the unified force that governs all physics and movement within the universe - and hence that the Midichlorians just are a conduit to tap into the Force. I mean, technically, if everyone could tap into the Force just through years and years of practice, then Yoda would be literally a god by now (considering he was alive for 800 years) - the potential for use of the Force would be infinite if access to it was not restricted by a physiological imperative while the individual was alive. Once they die of course, we cross full on into Nirvana territory (merging with the Force, becoming one with the universe etc. etc.). I never saw it as Doing In the Wizard, but rather Giving The Wizard A Wand... er, sorta. - 13secondstomidnight
• I juuust realized that the R2 units on X-Wings are supposed to emulate the round observation dome on top of bombers.
• A moment of Fridge Brilliance for myself was the pre-emptive realization that The Chosen One was always fated to destroy the Jedi Order. Even though the Jedi interpret the legend to fortell the end of the Sith, they are always careful to explicitly state: "The Chosen One will bring balance to the force." At the time of Anakin's arrival, there are a tiny number of Sith and vast numbers of Jedi. Hence, to balance the force Anakin must kill most of the Jedi. By the original Star Wars trilogy we know of only two Sith (Palpatine and Vader) and two remaining Jedi (Obi-Wan and Yoda). -- Pak
  • I thought this, too, until I stumbled across something George Lucas says in one of the DVD commentaries. He basically says that the Force is like a living entity, and that the Sith are akin to a cancer or disease, bringing it out of whack. Anakin/Vader fulfills the prophecy by doing away with the Sith, which requires him to sacrifice himself in the process. If a person's health is out of balance (y'know, he's sick), you don't make him sicker to make things fair, right? If you want to see how he phrased it, here's a link. -- Lone Paladin
    • Actually, YES you DO treat some medical conditions by injuring a person further. Especially with CANCER. Think about it. What is surgery? It's cutting a person open. The fact that you sew them up afterward notwithstanding. We're just so used to the idea that it seldom occurs to us that that is what surgery is. The other major way cancer is treated is by poisoning the patient, with a poison that (we hope) will affect the cancerous tissue more than it affects healthy tissue. We call this 'chemotherapy'. -- auswelter
  • Word of God or not, I disagree: I had a similar moment to Pak's: 2 Sith + balance = ...2 Jedi. (Ooops!) Given the way the phrase was so clearly and constantly used, I see it as a combination of arrogance and blindness on the part of the Jedi that made them assume that "balance" would mean "we win" (and would therefore be a good thing, instead of the prophecy of disaster it turned out to be). -- diannelamerc
    • While I agree that there is a certain attraction to the idea that "bringing balance to the Force" doesn't just mean destroying the Sith and may not even be something good, that equal numbers reasoning never appealed to me. Jedi and Sith are the main organizations of Force-users, by they do not, in their totality, constitute the Force itself. Even just between Jedi and Sith, there's a lot more that goes into "balance" than how many living adherents each side can boast. Equalizing the number of Jedi and the number of Sith = bringing balance to the Force? I think not. -- Tricky Pacifist
    • I had the same idea, thinking the "Balance" aspect was in fact Luke: A Jedi who could be fueled by his Emotions, but at the same time keep from being controlled by them. His defeat of Vader at the climax of RotJ seemed to be the prime example of that.
      • Just to add even more confusion, there's the issue of the so-called True Sith, who live in the Unknown Regions. That's two Sith orders to one Jedi order. And the True Sith are only mentioned in the KotOR games. How's that for Fridge Brilliance? -Mutant Rancor
    • While I agree that Bringing Balance wasn't likely to be reducing the number of Jedi to equal the number of Sith, I always viewed the Jedi as fallen or failed. The Force is Life and exists in the myriad of shades of grey. Having only good would lead to an ineffectual Ivory Tower or totalitarian utopian society. Thus the Old Jedi order also needed to be removed to allow the Force to from freely through the universe without being shoehorned into a "human" flawed morality system. -Night Haunter
    • Bringing Balance to the force could be the galaxy's reset button. The KotOR games mention a Sith version of the chosen one. if both chosen ones are one in the same, then the job is reciprocated both ways. only a few jedi and dark jedi survive to spark their respective sides of the force after the prophecy comes true. this can be more than a one time occurrence,chosen ones for multiple eras. Arguably Darth Revan fits the bill.
    • It's interesting to note that the movies do not refer to a "light side", only a "dark side"—it may not be quite right to think of the Jedi and Sith as some sort of gnostic opposites, but rather to think of the Jedi as the "balance" state, and Sith as a symptom of "imbalace"—perhaps even imagining the two Sith as two extremes in an Aristotelian sense, with the Sith Master representing cold, calculating control, and the apprentice representing brutal strength.
    • Also, don't forget that the way one becomes the Sith Master is by killing the previous Sith Master. And at the end of Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader kills Palpatine followed by Luke killing Vader (by removing his helmet). So one could argue that at the end, Luke is both the last remaining Jedi AND the last remaining Sith.
      • Alternatively, Luke is neither. He never finished his Jedi training. Vader killed Obi Wan, Palpatine and himself, while Yoda died on his own. No Jedi left, no Sith left. Balance! -- Tenebrais
    • Except Yoda told Luke in Return "Your training is done, now GTFO!" So yeah. Plus, on the Balance Between Good and Evil argument, explain how this balance could have existed for the some millenia that the Dark Jedi didn't show up in and why if that balance was so necessary that Darth Bane would enforce the Rule of Two?
    • Vader killed Palpatine not out of aggression, but to save his son. At that point he had forsaken his sith training, fulfilled the prophecy, and brought balance to the force. Luke removing Vader's mask always felt more like fulfilling his father's dying request or at worst assisted suicide.
    • What I personally think on the matter of the "balance issue" is that it is essentially a reset button. We mustn't focus on the fact that all the Jedi and Sith died but WHY they died. This reason is misuse of the Force. This is more obvious in the Sith than in the Jedi. The Jedi are steadfast in their old ways without being open to new ones and adapting likewise. In fact think of it this way: an organization who only accepts infants as members whom they will then train to use a specific elite skill-set that cannot be used by those not chosen, they are also taught a strict set of beliefs that includes forbidding them from exhibiting emotion and having children of their own, any deviation from this and they are "turned to the dark side" and their former peers are sent to eliminate them as an enemy; all for the sake of order. Not how they would have you believe it. But this inability to adapt and quest for order and control indicates a misuse of the Force. The sentient Force would therefore have balance be to get rid of these old ideas that seem to have strayed from the point and unfortunately it is so ingrained the extermination is required. Cue Anakin. His wiping out of the Jedi and then of Palpatine led the way for Luke to create the New Jedi Order which was open and inclusive. Essentially Order 66 and Anakin's final act before dieing can be likened to the Great Flood of the Noah's Arc story. Also it should be noted that the only people distinguishable after becoming one with the Force, have all at some point embraced this concept: Qui-gon Jin was willing to train Anakin even though he was older and made an illegal bet because it was necessary, Obi-wan was also willing to train Anakin and Luke and also harbored emotions for Anakin (more brotherly bond than a student-teacher one), Yoda eventually trained Luke out of necessity despite his age and emotional state, and Anakin himself for too many reasons to count. Wow. That is one massive wall of text! -- youngcosette
    • Personally I've always seen it more as Palpatine being the imbalance in the Force. I mean, think about it, the Force isn't in balance when Palpatine and Vader die, there's still Luke, who is a Jedi. Going by the view that it's about the Jedi/Sith being in balance, there's simply no evidence that the Force is in balance, because there are more Jedi than Sith at the end of the movies. Plus, as the Star Wars EU shows us, the Jedi aren't the be all and end all of Force users, thery're just the most famous group. So yeah, Palps is the imbalance, because when he dies, the Force is balanced once more.
  • The point I think is that while sure, the Sith were a disease on the living force, so were the Old Jedi. They had become corrupted and misdirected, ossified, blind, dogmatic and tyrranical. If the Sith are a cancer, then the Old Jedi had become an autoimmune disease. To properly bring balance to the force, both the Sith and the Old Jedi had to be destroyed, and a new, redeemed Jedi order had to be rebuilt. So Anakin fulfilled the prophecy by destroying both the Old Jedi and the Sith, and fathering Luke and Leia.
  • This was my idea on the "Balance" view of things, and it's a bit of an amalgamation of more than a couple of views stated above... I always applied the Taoist/Buddhist basis for the Jedi religion/philosophy rather strictly. Both Yin and Yang are necessary in complement to create balance within the universe, for without one the other cannot be defined - if one is diminished and the other over-reaching, the more heavily weighed side will start to corrupt/decompose in order to bring back the level balance. However, at the time of the Phantom Menace, the Sith - who were pure Neutral Evil - were only two, while the Jedi were in the hundreds. In essence the "light" side representatives of the force seriously out-weighed the dark side, and because of this, the Jedi order itself had become unstable, aligned with a corrupt government, blinded to the corruption taking place in a society they were sworn to protect, complacent and stagnant after thousands of years of stasis and a lack of growth. In themselves, the Jedi had begun to crumble and distort, deviating from the way they had prescribed for themselves and bound by a system of social and democratic governance that was in itself in decay. When the prophecy said that the Chosen One would bring "balance" back to the force, it didn't say "destroy the evil side so that the light side would reign supreme", it said, literally, bring back balance - an equal interplay of good and evil that was based on an equality of purpose so one side could define the other. Hence that is exactly what Anakin did. First off, he destroyed the Jedi order, nearly eradicating all Jedi from the face of the universe, and neatly decimating the "good" or light side of the equation, bringing the evil or dark side into prominence, then he did the same with the dark side as well when it became overbearing and on the point of dominance. He brought both over-reaching weights on both good and evil back down to subliminal balance. Then after he was gone, Luke was left with a galaxy with a healthy representation of uncorrupted good, but still one with strong remnants of a clear and present evil. And that battle between good and evil is fought out and debated over the expanded universe beyond the events of episode 6. In effect, Anakin fulfilled the prophecy right down to the letter. I only wished he could have done it without the excessive angsting that happened in episode III. Hope that makes sense, but that's just my view.
  • As an extra note, the novelisation of Revenge of the Sith includes an interesting dialogue between Obi-Wan and Mace Windu, in which the latter describes the inherent difference between how the Jedi and Sith operate: the Jedi, as Windu puts it, "create light" by always working selflessly for the good of the galaxy, but the Sith don't "create darkness", merely use the darkness which is and always has been there, the Sentient Beings Are Bastards factor. Obi-Wan, trying to clarify Windu's meaning, wonders if the Jedi have cast too much light. Later on in the novel, there's a nicely poetic passage explaining how "the brightest light casts the darkest shadow". The extended metaphor suggests that the new Sith were born as a result of the unyielding and immovable Jedi Order, casting too bright a light on the Galaxy, a little darkness being needed to restore order and renew everything. If a system in equilibrium will adjust itself to accommodate a stress applied so it can right itself, then the "Reset Button" theory seems more likely. Anakin's fall to the dark side was a necessary step in bringing balance to the Force—the excessive light of the Jedi had to be extinguished, briefly replaced by the equally unnatural excessive darkness of the Sith, for the natural balance of light and dark to be reasserted.
• I never liked the Prequel Trilogy, but then I watched them all back to back...AND THEY'RE BRILLIANT! Mostly if you look into the character of Anakin. First the annoying little kid? Even as a child you see the seeds of his turning over to the dark side. He has zero respect for authority, and this comes from him being a slave having to out smart his master. We see this, even in Episode 1, when the kid has the balls to STEAL A STAR FIGHTER AND ATTACK THE DROID CONTROL SHIP! But here's the kicker to me, this distrust of authority seems to actually have more to do with the light side than the dark side. In Episode 2, we see that Anakin is rebellious, but basically good (indeed it may be the Jedi trying to crush this rebellious streak that leads him to the dark side). In Episode 3, we see him openly espousing Crypto-fascist ideas, before submitting himself to the authority of Palpatine. He sticks to this worshipful reverence of Palpatine through out the original trilogy, and his moment of redemption is when he kills Palpatine. Also the way the Prequel Trilogy plays out like a mirror image of the Original is interesting too. In the first episode of the Prequel Trilogy we see a Hopeful world, but with a little bit of darkness hiding in the background, in the first of the Original Trilogy we see a dark world, but with a little bit of hope hiding in the background. By the end of the Prequel Trilogy the darkness basically overwhelms the hope, and by the end of the OT, Hope wins out. -Johni Boi
• Something that I realized while watching the third movie about how R2 was able to destroy 2 super battle droids without any problem. He was lifted into the air and after spurting oil at them was able to use a jetpack like apperatus and not only escape but set the oil on fire to destroy the other droids. This scene was so awesome that I didn't bother to think about it, but later I wondered why R2 didn't ever use those things in the older movies, but then I realized that he couldn't. He was a rebel droid in the first trilogy and they most likely didn't have the funds to spend on maxing out a single Astrodroid. Not only that, but after he joined the rebels he was just another droid instead of general Skywalkers personal droid which mostlikely came with special privledges. Without his status he most likely put aside and while in the service of Leia he wasn't given his past armaments.
  • R2 droids are made to be highly modular, and R2-D2's had a large amount of owners. They've likely changed his equipment loadout over time, as well, compounding why his enhancements seem so eclectic from movie to movie.
  • Alternatively, it's noted that R2 seemed to have more advanced gadgets in the prequel trilogy that, logically, would have been really useful in the original trilogy (the rocket-boosters, for one). In Real Life, it's because they had better technology for special effects for the prequel trilogy. In-universe, it could be because R2 is much 'older' in the original trilogy and might have missed some necessary upgrades. Not to mention that R2 and 3P0 were apparently Brain Washed between the two trilogies, so R2 might not even remember some of the awesome things he did in the prequel trilogy.
  • 3PO was mindwiped, R2 wasn't.
  • I disagree that R2's mind was wiped. The line at the end of ROTS is "Have the protocol droid's mind wiped." There's no mention of R2-D2 being formatted.
  • Proof of this is in the novels R2 showed Luke a hologram of Anakin and his last meeting with Padme.
  • And to prove the above point: At the beginning of ANH when Luke is cleaning the droids R2 shows his true brilliance. Luke is prying at the data disk that contains the plans to the death star (we saw Leia put it there) and to stop him from getting at it R2 distracts him with the hologram of Leia. But not the whole message just enough to make him curious. The rest of this scene is hard to get unless you listen to what R2 "says" through 3PO. The message is just "old data" and to "pay it no mind." R2 knows, however, that Luke's curiosity is piqued. Then, when Luke attempts to get more of the message to play, R2 tells him he belongs to "Obi-Wan Kenobi - a resident of these parts." Do you see it? He's drilling Luke for information! Then once R2 learns Kenobi lives out beyond the Dune Sea he tells Luke that if he removes the restraining bolt, he might be able to play back the entire recording. Which, of course, he doesn't. He just wanted the bolt off so he could get to Kenobi and deliver the message. I never got how clever R2-D2 was until, after seeing the prequels, I realized he did actually belong to Obi-Wan (sort of). Watching ANH we know that Luke is an important character; but to R2 (at this point in the story) he could care less and just wants to deliver the message to Obi-Wan. -Nuraja
• Last summer a friend of mine and I watched all six of the films in order (i.e. Episodes I-VI) and realized that the story isn't about Luke, like you might think it is, it's about Anakin, his downfall, and his redemption. She spent a full half hour trying to talk through her intense feelings about it; then again, she also had just spent fourteen hours watching, but when you realize that, it is a very powerful story.
• Even though all of the villains of the OT all die before the end, Luke Skywalker (the hero of the films) does not kill any of them directly. The only one he even kills indirectly is Grand Moff Tarkin, who could've survived if he'd evacuated before Luke blew up the Death Star. Boba Fett? Han Solo knocks him into the Sarlaac pit. Jabba the Hutt? Choked by Leia. Admiral Pratt? A-wing crashes into the bridge of his ship. Emporer Palpatine? Thrown down a shaft by Vader. Darth Vader? Electrocuted by Palpatine as he's thrown down the shaft (or he had Luke remove his mask in a form of suicide, YMMV).
• A just-realized moment of my own: The "Vader" in Darth Vader is, in the real world, the Dutch word for "Father." In the Original Trilogy, this was merely a foreshadowing hint to Vader's true identity. However, in the Prequel Trilogy, where Palpatine grants him the name, the father meaning seems to not be present. But then I realized: Anakin's fall to the Dark Side resulted because of his desire to save his wife and unborn child. He fell because he was acting as a husband and father. The name Vader takes on a much greater meaning now I realize that. -- Sgamer 82
  • Also, when Palpatine probably gave Vader that name thinking that Anakin, a being of nearly unlimited power in the Force, would become the "father" of the new order of Sith.
  • Actually, according to Word of God, the "Vader is Luke's father" element didn't exist at the time the first film was written (in fact, it wasn't even in the first draft of Empire!), so that really must be chalked up to coincidence. --Star Manta
    • Since The Force in A New Hope is portrayed as an "old religion" and Vader as a sort of Imperial cleric, it is quite likely Vader meant Father in the priestly sense. Fridge Brilliance indeed!
    • However, Lucas did have the idea for Obi-Wan and Vader being Luke's Dark and Light Fathers, symbolically.
  • Vade is also a verb which means "vanish." Darth Vader, in other words, is esteemed so powerful that he figuratively makes his enemies disappear. The name also implies everyone's belief that Anakin Skywalker is dead, vanished, and further, Palpatine's apparent failure to remember why he turned in the first place—for the sake of his prospective family. When he learnt that they were still alive, Anakin resurfaced, and it was Vader who faded away.
  • Also note that Vader's first task under Palpatine was to inVADE the Jedi Temple.
    • Apparently, "Darth Vader" was a name that existed from the first draft of Star Wars... but it belonged to some low-rank imperial officer. A person completely irrelevant in the grand sheme. So whatever meanings (coincidental or not) it eventually raked up, the name stayed mostly because it sounds AWESOME.
• This one concerns the much-derided moment in Return of the Jedi when Palpatine congratulates Luke on losing control of his anger, thus reminding Luke that he had to control himself. It seems like a moment of complete idiocy on Palpatine's part... and it is. That moment illustrates why the Sith's adherence to their own emotions can be a weakness instead of the strength they claim it is: without Jedi self-control, Palpatine couldn't contain his glee at being so close to his ultimate goal... and that momentary lapse made him lose it all. --Anomaly
  • No, actually it was not stupid, not at all. Think about it. Palpatine's goal is not just to turn Luke to the Dark Side, but to turn Luke to the Dark Side as his new apprentice. If he had said nothing and Luke had gone on to kill Vader in anger, that act would have been an act of defiance against Palpatine - the slaying of Palpatine's apprentice. Luke might have fallen as a result, but he would have fallen as a rival dark Jedi to Palpatine, and that would have been no good for Palpatine at all. Even if he was confident that he was powerful enough to dispose of Luke, he loses his apprentice (Vader), and gets no replacement. So he had to interject, to test Luke, to make sure that when Luke kills Vader, it is in response to Palpatine's own command, making the act one of obedience to Palpatine's will, and symbolic of Luke's submission to Palpatine as his new master. If Luke refuses to fall, then Palpatine could kill Luke, and keep Vader alive. This way, he gets to retain an apprentice, no matter how Luke chooses. His one mistake was failing to anticipate (or perhaps even conceive of the possibility) that Vader would ever, ever, turn on him.
    • I'm not sure that's totally right either - it wasn't a matter of obedience vs. defiance, because it isn't as if Palpatine is willing Luke to kill Vader in spite of himself or anything like that, and if Luke had done it it STILL would not have been out of any sense of obedience to Palpatine, it would have been purely out of his own anger. What Palpatine was doing was forcing Luke to think about how much stronger and more capable he was once he started giving in to anger. He first made Luke feel as helpless and frustrated as possible, and then he wanted him to feel empowered by his hate. The goal was to have Luke say to himself "he's right, if I act like a passive zen master I don't get what I want and all my friends die. If I act on my feelings I become strong enough to kill Vader. I need to follow this path from now on to get what I want, and I need to learn this path from this old bastard - for now." that would have given Palpatine another powerful servant with the standard Sith "fickle loyalty in exchange for power I needeven though I hate you" arrangement.
      • Even better- If Luke had just killed his father in a momentary rage, at the end of a battle for his life, he might have immediately regretted it. He might have had a "What have I done?" moment, and rejected the dark side right then and there. Even if he didn't, Luke would only have been taking a step towards the dark side, which wouldn't have been enough as Palpatine was right there and it was about to be 'join me or die'. Palpatine needed Luke to consciously decide to give in to his anger so that there would have been no going back. It had to be a choice, not a reaction.
• I finally understands (he thinks) what Yoda was trying to say to Anakin the last time they spoke together: He didn't want Anakin to let go of his attachments, as much as he wanted him to let go of his fear that stemmed from them. Anakin was blinded by it pretty much since the visions started. He was so focused on avoiding or preventing the danger that he never thought to identify it, and recognize it when it came. He blindly latched onto the first hand that reached out, and thus damned the galaxy for almost twenty years.
• For the absolute longest time, I was of the opinion that Anakin only wanted to become a fully-fledged Jedi because he just wanted power. Then I realised that in Episode II, he has recurring dreams about his mother suffering - he wanted to save his mother, and he couldn't get out of his Jedi commitments when still a Padawan. When he goes to save her and fails completely, it starts to break him. In Episode III, he still wants to be a master so he can have more time with Padme and his future children, but the council still don't let him because he's unstable.
  • The novelization makes this motivation explicit. It's not the only thing it clears up either. The reason the prequels are regarded so poorly is because George Lucas took too much of the subtext, background, and motivation for his characters for granted and never bothered to explain to the audience what was going on half the time. This was likely an effect of having lived in this world and with these characters for YEARS; Lucas was so close to the materal he lost the ability to asses it objectively. Had he let another director handle the prequels it is likely they would have been far superior in quality, and not nearly as loathed as they are (at least among the general public, I'm sure just as many fanboys would be upset at the new movies upsetting the Fanon)
• One of the biggest things everybody mocks the prequel trilogy for is the chemistry, or lack thereof, between Anakin and Padme. But it occurred to me that Anakin's awkwardness with Padme, especially in Episode II, is entirely understable: he's been part of a monastic order since the age of nine. Of course he's not gonna be a Don Juan. He's a Warrior Monk-in-training! And as Bill Murray said in Stripes, "Did you ever see a monk get wildly fucked by some teenage girls?".
  • Doesn't save Padme's awkwardness with him, though. Or the fact that she shows no discernible reaction when he reveals to her he's a mass murderer of Sand People.
    • That may count too. She doesn't care at all that Anikin just killed a whole camp of people, because she's learned to be emotionally detached, but it could also hint at some fantastic racism there. We know that the humans on Naboo and the Gungans dislike each other. It seems likely that she could regard the Sand People as sub-human. It also tends to keep with the way humans in Star Wars tend to be. Leia refers to Chewie as a "walking carpet" in one scene, which could be considered a bit speciest as well.
    • Well, she had been in the public eye from a young age, and had never gotten much time for more intimate relationships until AOTC.
    • Yeah, Padme's been The Woman Wearing the Queenly Mask since she was fourteen. She had to learn how to mask, and at times hide her emotions in order to be taken seriously. Being ruled by her emotions was a big no-no.--ncfan
    • Exactly. She may very well have been horrified at Anakin's actions, just that her training for queenship so long ago taught her to not have a meltdown. Of course, that's put into question when she later marries said mass-murderer...
      • Overlooking some of the dialogue/plot issues the prequels had in some places, I've always thought Padme was a great foil to Anakin. He was a man who couldn't let go of his personal attachments for the sake of the higher cause; she was a woman who had sacrificed so much of herself for the greater good that she hardly had anything personal to speak of. She was always strong in her moral convictions, but Anakin's passionate endeavor hit her right where she was weakest.
• I was pondering why the robots in the Star Wars series are all called "droids"; most of them are about as far from traditional androids as you can get. And then it hit me: "an" also means "opposite of", so the opposite of an android would be, logically, a "droid"! The genuinely humanoid ones like C3PO are noticeably rare and probably a more recent invention than the other types, by sheer virtue of their complexity. OK, so Anakin was able to create one from scratch, but he's a freaking genius. That was kind of the point.
  • Saying Anakin built 3PO from scratch is a bit of a stretch. We know from the films there are other droids like him in existence (several show in the original trilogy and a couple more in the prequels). It's more likely Anakin found the pieces of several junked units and managed to rebuild a working unit out of them. Still pretty good for a seven year old, but it's far from the Creator's Pet territory most people assumed it was in.
  • A comic (linked to in Thank the Maker) shows Anakin found the structure mostly intact.
  • Except the "andr" in android comes from the Greek word for man, and the "oid" means like. So it would literally mean robots in the Star Wars universe are so called because of their resemblance to the letters "d" and "r" - brilliance!
• Up until ROTS, this troper used to think Vader's black lenses were just that. But as his mask is being lowered, we see the lenses show red and black LCD. Red and black were the two dominant colors of Mustafar, so as Vader, Anakin sees the world looking just like the one which changed him forever. It lends a greater impact to his line "Let me look on you with my own eyes".
  • It also looks like fire as we see the mask descending over him, symbolizing Anakin's descent into Hell.--ncfan
• I realized something about the OT: Luke's first and last spoken lines in the OT have to do with choice. In ANH, when we first meet Luke, his Aunt Beru asks him to remind him to tell his Uncle Owen to make sure a translator droid can speak Bocce, to which Luke says "Doesn't look like we have much of a choice, but I'll remind him". And towards the end of ROTJ, he says "Father, I won't leave you" as his redeemed father Anakin dies.
• There is one very powerful theme that crosses almost the entire saga and can only be fully understood by putting both trilogies together. In Episode III Obi-Wan suggests that he raises Luke himself while Yoda says no, that he should be raised outside of the Jedi life. This is elaborated more in the novelization, where Yoda believes that he lost the duel with Sidious because he had spent his life trying to hold on to past Jedi tradition while the Sith learned to evolve. In the case of Anakin, the Jedi life was forced upon him and he constantly resented it (taken away from his mother, forbidden from marrying Padme, etc). Because of this, whenever he made a personal choice he was always worried of the backlash. In the case of Luke, when offered the chance to leave Tatooine he told Obi-Wan that he has responsibilities on the farm. Obi-Wan's reply (with a distinct sense of regret) was "You must do what you feel is right." And when Luke approached Yoda, the little guy practically made Luke beg to be trained, to ensure that he wasn't going to go at it half-assed. Because of this, whenever Luke made a personal choice he always seemed to do so with resolve and dedication. And then in the Expanded Universe Luke's new Jedi Order emphasized the importance of evolution and learning over ancient tradition. The Star Wars saga is a message about the dangers of blind tradition and the importance of personal choice. George Lucas said he wanted to tell his story, and this is what it is. --KJ Mackley
  • And one line that perfectly enhances that theme is in A New Hope. When Luke is disappointed to learn that Han and Chewie will not stay to help the Rebels fight the Death Star, Leia tells him that "He [Han] has got to follow his own path. No one can choose it for him."
  • The Yoda theory is confirmed in the Thrawn Trilogy; when Luke is relflecting on the passing of Obi-Wan's ghost, he claims he is the last of of the Jedi... then he hear's Obi-Wan's voice "Not the last of the old jedi, but the first of the new" --Seekerof Alice 09
  • It also explains the "bring balance to the Force" prophecy quite cleanly. The Sith don't represent balance because they're too self-indulgent and cruel. But the Jedi don't represent balance either, because they're too Lawful Stupid. Proper balance, therefore, requires that both orders be dismantled, so that another one can rise - and indeed it does. It's less obvious there, but this is also the outcome of the Knights of the Old Republic series, and helps explain just what Kreia (and possibly Revan) intended.
    • You noticed that too? I figured out a theory recently on what 'balance' could possibly mean to the Force, which seems to be more like the life energy of the entire galaxy: if the Force itself is alive, how could a stagnant, hyper-controlling and totally unchanging Jedi Order possibly be good for it? In nature, stagnation usually equals death. The Sith philosophy seems like a good alternative in theory, but the way the Dark Side corrupts and perverts life makes it seem more like a cancer - growth for the sake of growth, power for the sake of power. Anakin's entire life was basically forcing the Force to act more dynamically, to encourage healthy development. - Oracle Seven
• I came to this conclusion last summer when I was big into my conspiracy theory Orwellian "People are Sheep" etc. phase: We're meant to hate Jar Jar. He represents the stupid, uninformed masses who come in and frak up democracy by voting without any real opinion of what's going on. He gets guilted into giving his support to Palpatine because it makes him feel good, just like how so many voters choose the candidate who "feels" like they've got everyone's best interests in mind. Jar Jar's single vote sets us on the path that will kill off the last, lingering vestiges of democracy in the Old Republic. And keep in mind what we've seen him doing in the past. He's a clumsy backwater hick who gets kicked exiled for causing massive chaos with his own clumsiness. Then he gets picked up by Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan, and for the rest of the movie, we can barely make it 20 minutes without some new scene of Jar Jar clumsily making gigantic messes of parts shops or armies. And yet, for some reason, this buffoon is who we trust the entire fate of democracy to. Hmmm....
• George Lucas was inspired by many things in creating Star Wars: the old Buck Rogers serials, Joseph Campbell books on mythology, Japanese Samurai movies like The Hidden Fortress on so on. It just occurred to me that Lucas may also have been inspired by Medieval tales like the King Arthur legend as well: The union of Anakin is Padme is that of a knight (a Jedi Knight) and a lady (Queen-turned-senator), and Palpatine is in effect an evil sorcerer of sorts. Obi-Wan perhaps played the Merlin role, as did Yoda.
  • Lucas has long acknowledged that Joseph Campbell's work on the Arthurian legend inspired a lot in Episode IV. One example you missed; Obi-wan presenting Luke with his father's Light Saber is analogous to Arthur claiming Excalibur (which had been his father's sword).
• I just had a stroke of possible Fridge Brilliance while reading through these Star Wars Fridge Brilliances. It's an ironic twist that love is what causes Anakin to fall to the Dark Side (and even more ironic that this leads to him killing his love), while love is what brings him back to the light at the end of the series. Consider this: plenty of times throughout the EU, Vader is shown to loathe himself, and the reason is obvious. He killed the only woman he ever loved. Hence the annoying Big No at the end of Revenge of the Sith. This was his own personal hell that he had created for himself: to always remember that he ruined his own life by killing his love. Then, about 21 years later, he sees his son in a position that echoed Padme's hauntingly. Pleading for Anakin to save him while in agony from a Dark Side attack. Luke had tried to turn him back to the Light since they first met in Return of the Jedi, but it isn't until his son is put in that situation that he does. I think that's what did it; not just that his son, the only thing of Padme he had left, was in mortal danger, but he was forcibly reminded of the time he failed her and he couldn't bear to allow it to happen again.
  • Which game me some fridge light- not only was Luke pleading with his father, Vader just learned about his daughter, saw what Palpatine was doing, and didn't want to do more to her, (sorry about killing your mom and, ya know, blowing up your planet- my bad). Plus, fathers having the soft spot for daughters.
• This bothered me for the longest time. I used to think Vader was an incredibly dumb character, mostly because he is so inconsistent in his actions. One minute he is a loving, caring, albeit obsessive husband who wants to protect those he cares about, and next he's murdering children. His psychological transformation into Vader was sudden and not fully explained. I used to chalk this up to simply Lucas's crappy writing. But then I began researching psychological disorders, and I stumbled across Borderline Personality Disorder, a mental state in which people tend to have varying extremes of emotion, reason and the like. They can't seem to decide on a single core personality. And then it hit me at last: this is Anakin's problem! He's got BPD! A scientific explanation for his all-over-the-place behavior! This explains how he could be trying to fight Luke one second, and then suddenly switches sides and kills Palpatine. His mind is just wired that way. Similar to bipolar disorder, actually. If Lucas actually had BPD in mind when he created Vader (and Anakin), then he is more brilliant than I could have ever expected of him, and has created one of the most complex and psychologically fascinating characters of all time. -Unnamed Troper.
  • Experts seem to agree. -ajay
• Also, I'm not sure if this was already mentioned here, (and it's not exactly easy to look through the list) but I think it's arguably Fridge Brilliance that when it comes to lightsaber colours, Qui-Gon uses green, Obi-Wan uses blue, and Luke Skywalker uses blue in The Empire Strikes Back and green in Return of the Jedi. Also, Qui-Gon was more trusting of Anakin than Obi-Wan was, much like how Luke was more trusting of Vader in Return of the Jedi than he was in The Empire Strikes Back. - neoYTPism
• Lots of people complain about the Jedi using the clone army, saying that it is immoral and pretty stupid. And I agree. But then you ask why didn't the Republic levy troops from the hundreds of thousands of systems that belong to it? But then I realized: one of the biggest problems with the Republic was its corruption. Most Republic worlds were too damn lazy and cynical to levy troops until their planet gets invaded, and even then wouldn't do anything after. The Republic worlds would rather use a slave army then get their hands dirty. The Jedi did something reprehensible by accepting the clones, but they've spent their entire lives serving the Republic with many in the Republic expecting them to fix their problems, and when there comes a problem that the Jedi cannot handle, the Republic still sits on its ass and compels them to sacrifice their morals to save billions of apathetic citizens from the ruthless droid armies.
  • We do see non-clone members of the Republic's military. Presumably they are the results of recruiting or conscripting troops from the various member worlds. It is of course also possible that nobody wanted to offer their troops up to die first until there was already a full-fledged Grand Army Of The Republic in place, so the Clones, led by the Jedi, served to act as that core that got things moving. Still morally reprehensible, at least by the standards of this blue dot, in this galaxy, a long time later. Note that earlier, the Jedi seemed to be not overly concerned by the existence of slavery on Tatooine, so this is at least a consistent attitude.
  • More than that is because some worlds like Naboo are basically just pacifist who are not interested in building an army, and only possess a pissy security force with only 1000 force strong. Its is quite amazing that they even survive so long since they share a planet with the Gungans who are a Warrior Race with a real standing army that could boot out the Naboo by just knocking on their doorstep with their own army. This is touched in Star Wars: The Clone Wars where the Seperatist almost convinced the Gungans to side with them.
• Another thing, and this sort of combines Fridge Horror with Fridge Brilliance... in the original trilogy, Palpatine and Vader seem perfectly aware of the force, and Vader is shown mentioning it to other Imperial officers in A New Hope, but they seem to perceive it as just another religion. However, they (or at least some of them) also seem to be aware that the Jedi were mostly wiped out, as implied by one of Tarkin's conversations with Vader, in which Tarkin says "you, my friend, are all that is left of their religion." Now think about this in light of the prequel trilogy. "Order 66" was already heinous, but we know from the context that it was at least somewhat pragmatic; Palpatine wiped out the Jedi because they were the only rivals to himself and Vader in knowledge of the force. Tarkin, however, not believing in the force, is probably unaware that this was the reason. Now think about what he said once more. "All that is left of their religion." In other words, he condones having people rounded up and killed for their religious beliefs. Sure, we knew he was bad news from the start, but still... - neoYTPism
  • Except, Hitler and the Nazis didn't kill the Jews because of their religion, he didn't much care what they believed in. What HE did kill them for was the fact that they were Jews racially. He believed that genetically, the Jews were inferior and needed to be destroyed, since they were screwing up the gene pool. Which is why he also threw in gypsies and crippled people.
  • Okay, okay, so maybe it might not have been motivated by contempt for their religious beliefs, but the point remains that Tarkin's like some historical villains in wanting people killed for their religious beliefs. There are probably some actual examples, probably in communist dictatorships, of it being about the religious beliefs of the victims. My point overall is the implied distinction between Palpatine and Tarkin... Palpatine's heinous evil deeds are clearly driven by his lust for power, but for Tarkin even lust for power isn't sufficient explanation for his heinous evil deeds. neoYTPism
    • Tarkin's line is really just a simple statement of fact. If I say, "There's no Dodo birds left," does that mean I'm condemning them because I have a personal prejudice against them? No, I'm just stating quantifiable fact, which is what Tarkin is doing, as far as he has any reason to believe. Tarkin doesn't offer any judgment on them, or say they should be dead because of their religion, he just says they're gone. Tarkin's a bad, bad guy, sure, but you're ascribing qualities to him on extremely flimsy 'evidence'.
      • At the very least, though, judging by his tone of voice, he sure doesn't seem to MIND that the Jedi were killed off.
• You ever notice that the final duel of Episode III and the final duel of Episode VI has something in common (other than being the final duels of their respective trilogies)? The lightsabres being used have the same hilt design. Different colours, but same hilt. Anakin's sabre hilt is identical to Vader's apart from different colour trimmings and Obi-Wan's hilt is nearly identical to Luke's. In both duels, Anakin loses and the very last lightsabre seen to be deactivated at the end of both trilogies is the Luke/Obi-Wan design.
• You may begin to hate Hayden Christiensen's performance as Anakin, and wonder why Lucas isn't reining him in or directing more so that we like Anakin or feel for him or experience any sense of empathy for his plight. By the time you reach halfway through Episode 3, you may begin to actively hate Anakin Skywalker, even before his fall. Well played, George Lucas. You've been conditioning us to hate Darth Vader again.
  • one major problem: the fall before Rot S was released, Lucas photoshopped Hayden into Return of the Jedi. at least at that time, Hayden's Anakin we didn't associate with a cold-blooded wife-choking, child-slaughtering monster. but in light of Rot S, If Lucas intended for this ending to be uplifting, he failed miserably.
  • But you forget the fans reaction to it that small edit. Pure Hatred towards Christiensen. And just in time for Revenge of the the Sith to come out.
• Another case of Fridge Brilliance, you know how people often complain that Anakin's personality in The Phantom Menace seemed so contradictory to his original-trilogy personality, and that both personalities seemed contradictory to the personality he had in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith... but then again, adults often ARE quite different as adults than they were as children, so of course Anakin's going to have different personalities as a child, as a teenager, and as an adult. The Phantom Menace's Anakin was a child, so of COURSE he's going to be more sweet and friendly than he was later on. The Anakin of Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith was a teenager, so of COURSE he's going to be more whiny and arrogant than he was later or earlier on. The Vader of the original trilogy was an adult, much older than the Anakin of Revenge of the Sith, so of COURSE he's going to be more mature than any other version of Anakin. This is, if not perfectly in line with actual age difference, at least in line with PERCEIVED age differences, and if one is to complain about this, their real complaint is with popular age stereotypes, not Star Wars movies. - neoYTPism
  • What you've said echoes the comments of Kevin Smith, when he was interviewed for the History Channel documentary Star Wars: The Legacy. I think a large part of why a lot of fans felt that the character of Vader was ruined was not so much about the whininess of the character, but the flatness of the actors portraying him.
• In the prequel trilogy, especially in Phantom Menace, much is made of Anakin's great power in the Force and how important he is as the Chosen One. Because of his general visual appeal, James Earl Jones' voice, and the admitted awesome of The Reveal in Empire, it took me a while to realize this, but... Vader's largely inconsequential throughout the series after blowing up the droids' command station in Phantom Menace. He does nothing of import during Attack of the Clones other than brashly undermining Obi-Wan. In Revenge of the Sith, he kills children, chokes his wife, and gets crippled. In the original trilogy, he's a badass, sure, but we saw him as the ultimate force user for two movies straight, and had no idea there was more to it than telekinesis and hypnosis (the latter of which he never used). Jedi shows the real big bad, and Vader does kill him, but... ultimately, isn't Vader just a visually-impressive Dragon to Palpatine, and for all his purported power, he just throws junk at Luke and force-chokes stuffy Brits who annoy him. Power? What power?
  • The power was what Anakin could have been and was supposed to become, but never did. He was going to be the super-end all force user...which was why Palpatine was after him to be his apprentice, and why he put Order 66 in place the moment he had Anakin on his side. He knew that with Anakin as his apprentice, rounding up the Jedi would be no problem...which we see in that he pretty much destroyed the Jedi Temple on his own (which a squad of troopers - well known Jedi bait). Unfortunately, what Palp did not see coming was that Obi-Wan was going to defeat Anakin and reduce him to a (literal)half-man shell of what he once was...and what he was going to be. Obi-Wan was able to destroy Anakin's potential right there on Mustafar. If we accept that the number of midiclorians determines force power...if you lose half your body, you lose half your midiclorians. Every time a Jedi or Sith loses a limb it reduces their power level. Ironically, the Darth Vader of the original trilogy is a crippled and defeated old man in a walking iron lung who is not nearly as powerful as Palp thought he was going to be - but since most of all the other force-users are dead...he is a bad-ass. Vader's reduced capacity might also be why the Rebels were able to survive to cause so much trouble. Perhaps in Palp's original visions, his apprentice, fully-powered Vader, would have been able to sniff them out and destroy them utterly. It is also the reason why Palp was so eager for Luke to kill Vader and become the new Sith apprentice...Luke (and Leia) have that same potential to become just as powerful as Anakin would have. - Bad Sintax
  • By stopping Windu from killing Palpatine, he is partially responsible for the creation of the empire. Also, his killing of the children in the jedi temple didn't just demonstrate his descent into evil, but also cut off a major source of potential jedi, though granted, MAYBE it could have been done by the clones. Also, Vader's "force-choking" of imperial staff ultimately instills a sense of fear in them which probably plays a significant role in their actions. Also, the Vader-Luke confrontations probably had significant effects on the psychology of each, which is probably important what with Luke being the "last of the jedi." (Save for Yoda until his death.) neoYTPism
    • Palpatine was feigning weakness—the closeups while he is "vulnerable" show he's calmly gauging Windu and Anakin, manipulative as ever, and the very moment Anakin's made his decision, Palpatine's back on the offense, no longer panting and wheezing. The slaughter of the young Jedi was an atrocity, but also not something that we were supposed to view as a challenge—it happens almost entirely offscreen, and it's something that, say, Maul probably could have accomplished with comparable results. All we see is that he's a competent Dragon, and that's about it. The Chosen One seems to be fraught with signs of his greatness, but ultimately about being in Palpatine's blind spot and/or siring the one who could bring about the end of the Sith, however indirectly.
• This is more of an EU Brilliance, but it has it's based on the movies. First, one has to wonder how exactly Palpatine became a racist, bloodthirsty despot growing up on pacifistic Naboo. I don't really have an answer to the bloodthirsty bit, but the xenophobia actually makes perfect sense. The only aliens that Palps would have known growing up on Naboo would have been Gungans, with whom the Naboo had had a sour relations with for centuries. No wonder he hated aliens, they were all Gungans to him!
  • So, Jar Jar Binks and his kin ruined everything - that's what everyone's been trying to say, and it may be right!
  • It's more insidious than that. Palpatine isn't himself a racist, and he frequently used non-humans as his pawns throughout the series—it's even heavily implied that the Death Star wasn't designed by the humans. It's that he knows better, but humans are the apparent majority in the galaxy, and twisting them toward xenophobia keeps the hate flowing for the Dark Side and makes the populace more easy to manipulate. The Empire doesn't need to be racist, it's just more useful to him if it is.
  • Exactly. Palpatine isn't a racist who holds nonhuman life in contempt; he's a Complete Monster who holds everybody's life in contempt, human or otherwise. His favoritism towards humans stems solely from A) the fact he is one, so is better-equipped to appeal to human racists' preferences in a leader than, say, Twilek racists' preferences; and B) the fact that humans happened to be in the best position to become his hate-motivated minions.
  • All this is assuming that Palpatine is even his real name and Naboo is even his home planet....
• The human specism, and even racism, particularly on the part of the Empire. For one, it was a clever way to explain why we see so few non-humans on the Death Star, or as extras. Rather than say that they just didn't have the budget to create hundreds of aliens for the purpose of just background characters, the explanation is entirely in universe.
  • One line by an Imperial officer in ANH said it all: "Where are you taking this...thing?"(referring to Chewbacca, a Wookie)
  • The second layer of brilliance has to do with the story explanation. Yeah, it does connect them to Nazis, but it goes beyond just allegory. It makes perfect sense that humans would be the most specist, since in Real Life, it's pretty much how it is here. How many humans actually view other species as equal? We cage, enslave, kill, skin, eat, and experiment on other species all the time, exploiting and killing non-humans by the billion year after year. If the humans in the Star Wars universe are anything like us, then why would they be any different?
    • Maybe because many of the aliens in Star Wars universe are actually able to reason with others, develop a code of ethics, culture and political system just like us humans? Really, the only difference between humans and aliens in Star Wars is perhaps limited to appearance and natural habilitate. It is much more about racism in real life instead of animal rights. People in Star Wars (both humans and aliens) eat the meat, wear the fur, and experiment on other less evolved species too you know.
  • Actually, this is brought up many times in the Expanded Universe (especially The Thrawn Trilogy), where it turns out the Palpatine was really a racist, sexist bastard who hand-picked humans to work in his empire, and was extremely intolerant of women, while deliberately subjugating all non-humans as sub-sentient. Though in the trilogies themselves we never really see why exactly the Empire is so evil - apart from them destroying a planet, destroying the last vestiges of a democratic system of governance... oh wait - but in the Expanded Universe, we see that Palpatine really was this tyrant who was basically the galaxy's answer to Hitler. The descriptive term Jerkass doesn't seem to quite cut it.
• think about who the best know force users to have a reverse lightsaber grip were. think about who their master was. the actual style is a reverse grip form of the shien form, which is. according to wookiepedia, basically a defensive form, with a bite.
• For a long time, the idea of "spice mines" seemed to be just a bit of silliness I quietly ignored. Mining spices? How ridiculous can you get? Then I realized that far from being stupid, it's perfectly reasonable. The most common spice in the world is salt, and do we get salt? From mines!
  • Except "Spice" is the name of a crystalline narcotic produced from inorganic spiders to catch beings made of energy, not flavorful minerals.
• Yoda's comment to Luke to sacrifice his friends for the ideals they cherish makes more sense when you remember that Yoda could've dispatched Dooku by allowing Anakin and Obi Wan to die. Not only would this have meant the loss of both Palpatine's apprentice and the future Lord Vader, it also would've ended the separatist movement early enough that the Jedi could've afforded more time to investigating the clones' true benefactor.
  • What if Yoda had just pulled the two humans away? Would Dooku have killed himself to save his boss's plans? Or would he have rolled on him, or tried to escape? The Sith philosophy is inherently selfish; are they even capable of suicide for the benefit of others.
• Upon rewatching all six movies, it becomes clear that Anakin, by and large, was correct about the Jedi: they WERE keeping him back (Ep II showed that Yoda was aware of Anakin's brush with the dark side, if not the slaughter of the tusken in specific); the Jedi HAD compromised their stated values (attempting to abuse Palpatine's favor of Anakin, and later Windu's decision for summary execution instead of due process); and the order's stodgy reliance on tradition and denial of emotion is part of what allowed the Sith to seize power virtually unopposed (for all Yoda's warnings of fear, he'd apparently given Anakin plenty of reason to hide both the tusken slaughter and his marriage to Padme, out of fear of what the order would do). He was only wrong about Obi Wan's personal loyalty. Moreover, not only is Luke successful without Jedi dogma indoctrinated into him, he succeeds despite the manipulations of his mentors: Obi Wan's attempt to protect Luke by hiding Vader's true nature, while well-intentioned, was no longer necessary after the first movie, and outright endangered Luke in the second. Likewise, when Yoda tells Luke that the ideals of the rebellion matter more than the lives of Luke's friends, Luke ultimately rejects this, leading directly to gaining the knowledge he needed to defeat the Sith. Finally, both Yoda and Obi Wan attempt to convince Luke that Vader's evil is monolithic, remembering from personal experience how Anakin's fall led him to murder children and his own wife. When Luke tried anyway, not out of a plan for the rebellion or an abstract philosophy, but out of genuine concern for his father, Luke not only redeemed Anakin, he also proved the falsehood of the Jedi Order's self-denial practices.
  • This Troper noticed the same thing, or at least the part about Luke proving Yoda and Obi-Wan wrong. Even without the prequel trilogy, it's clear that Luke redeemed Vader precisely BECAUSE he learned the truth and acted accordingly, which reflects poorly on the decisions of Obi-Wan and Yoda to lie to him. So, the original trilogy already made clear that the Jedi weren't quite as wise as they pretended to be and/or thought they were. The council's rigid traditionalism in the prequel trilogy only drives the point home further.
  • Point of fact: Mace only decided to kill Palpatine after he carved several Jedi up like a Hibachi chef. The toughest guy he fought, before then, was Kar Vastor, and he was incarcerated in the Jedi temple, after being charged with crimes against civilization. He nearly destroyed an entire city; he was that dangerous. And Mace Windu, the guy who took that guy down, thinks Palpatine is too dangerous to let live. In addition to that, his strongest Force Talent is knowing where to hit things so they break, up to the scale of the entire Clone Wars, and he was looking at the big fat spider in the middle of his web who started it all. I'm inclined to believe him.
• Everybody—and This Troper used to fall into this camp—laughed their collective behinds off when Han Solo stated in Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope that he'd made the Kessel Run "in under twelve parsecs". However, his comment that misrouting the hyperdrive could send one into a supernova or something comparable stuck with him. Eventually, This Troper realized that Han wasn't making up random technobabble—he was stating that his hyperdrive could find more efficient or daring routes!
  • That was what this troper thought too, but everyone around her kept calling her names for years! I always thought that the incredulous look that Obi-wan gave Han was the "Really, you found a shorter way to fly that route? Seriously, what are you insane?!" type.
  • In the Expanded Universe, it's stated that the exact method he used was to fly through something called The Maw. What is The Maw? A giant nebula MADE OF HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF BLACK HOLES. Had the calculations been off by as little as three inches, he would be very very dead.
  • However Obi-Wan clearly falls into the collective laughter. Seriously, check the look he gives right after the Parsecs line. Though, considering his intense dislike for flying in the prequels, maybe he doesn't know quite as much as the seasoned smuggler?
  • The screenplays make the original intention of this line clear, and the EU justifications that followed completely unnecessary: Han is making a nonsensical boast to a couple of local yokels. Obi-Wan's reaction is meant to indicate that he recognizes the absurdity of what Han is saying, while Luke's more-or-less ambiguous blank stare is meant to imply he has no idea what Han is saying. Case closed, time to move on from this silly little trifle.
  • Alternatively, if Obi-Wan does happen to know how the Kessel Run works and what Han means, his disbelief could be interpreted as him thinking "Not even Anakin is that crazy/stupid."
  • This is something of correct/incorrect. A Parsec is a unit of distance, not time. So the disbelieving looks could be due to Obi-one being aware of this. However as stated the Maw is a collection of black holes, that if done incorrectly will result in death. So charting a short distance course through that is all the more bad-ass.
  • I never understood why it isn't so strange for this to either be an in universe measurement or slang for one.
  • Expending on the above comment, and completely discarding the canon EU explanation, I theorize that a parsec here is slang for a time measurement, much the same way that on good old earth, time measurements are used as distance measurements. The expression "Person X lives 3 hours away", or the derivation of the distance unit Lightyear from the time unit Year both are based on calculating the described distance from the specified time measurement and an assumed universally uniform speed. This makes sense in a world with varying distance measurement units (miles, kilometres, etc.), but a common time measurement system (hour = hour). Now, in a Universe inhabited by spacefaring civilisations with a shared history that goes back countless millennia, I think it's not too much of a stretch to think that, unlike on Earth, (interstellar) distance measurement units would be universal (established as 'distance between historically important places A and B' or something similar), whereas time units would vary greatly, based on the rotation speed of the individual person's home planet, resulting in slang measurements such as the one in the movie. Much like 'an hour' is the same distance no matter whether you'd measure it in kilometres or miles, '12 parsecs' might denote the same time no matter what's an 'hour' on your homeworld, assuming normal hyperdrive speed. And Obi-Wan's expression is of course just a snob's frown upon slang.
  • Here's one I had: The Kessel run explanation is a microcosm of what went wrong with Star Wars. The original scripts and acting make it clear that Han is bluffing. Later, a technical explanation was cooked up by fans and official adopted as "canon". The focus of the movies changed from being more character-centric to being more focused on technical things like special effects and technical accuracy over thematic accuracy (No, see, Anakin *was* a great pilot when Obi-wan met him- he was a pod racer!)
  • Confirmed, kinda. In Russian dub instead of the whole "Parsec" thing he says "It's the ship that shortened Kessel Run".
• In his introduction, Boba Fett is explicitly told not to disintegrate anyone, an order which he grudgingly accepts. Why, then, is he worried about Solo dying in the carbonite chamber? Did he plan on presenting Jabba with still-living atoms?
  • He needed Solo alive. He had no particular need to keep the Wookie, Princess, and Droid intact, and may have simply been annoyed that his options were being limited.
• I just realized: the holographic stuff used in throughout the Galaxy is always blue, right? What color are Force Ghosts? Blue. The later cannot possibly be imitating the former and considering the technology level that is available, it would be easy to set up different colors or even full-color holograms. This leads me to suspect that holograms are blue because someone felt like imitating rumored ghost sightings.
  • Actually, in Original Trilogy holograms are more colorful then they are in Prequel Trilogy.
• The first character to call Luke a Jedi to his face is Emperor Palpatine. Luke called himself a Jedi knight on a few occasions, but pretty much every time he was told that no, he wasn't. Even Han accuses Luke of having delusions of grandeur when Chewbacca mentions it to him. Hell, Palpatine practically knights Luke himself, immediately before he gives up on trying to convert him and decides to just kill the insufferable whelp.
• The Distressed Watcher claims that seeing the Jedi act like bureaucrats in the prequels didn't line up with the way they were described by characters in the original trilogy. Think about it, though... how often in real life do people who view old traditions through rose-tinted glasses know what they're talking about? Perhaps the point very well was to imply that Obi-Wan's fondness for the past was very much like that which some people have for the 1950s in real life?
• The prequels, specifically Episode III, make Vader's redemption even more understandable. The very thing he'd turned to the dark side to save (at least partially) was now being killed right before him. More subtly, watching Luke be electrocuted definitely reminded him of Mace Windu's death and of how he too was screaming for help from the Emperor.
• This is more Fridge Horror, but Vader probably still doesn't think of the James Earl Jones voice as his own. When he's thinking, he probably still uses the Hayden Christensen voice. Just imagine Hayden Christensen saying "No, I am your father," or "I find your lack faith disturbing," or "You have failed me for the last time." Loses a lot of awesome, doesn't it?
• Alternativly the James Earl Jones voice is a coping method to devorce him from the past ah la That Man Is Dead
• Shifting here from its former entry on the Nightmare Fuel page. (Hard to tell if it was intended in 1977...)
  • Imagine being on a planet blown up by the Death Star. It's blown into fairly large pieces, and they seem cohesive enough that someone might survive if they were in a hardened structure, or perhaps outside. You could live through it...though the fact that the chunk of planet wouldn't have enough gravity to maintain an atmosphere would ensure you didn't live long afterward. And what if you were in an airtight bunker...
    • So a Fallout style Vault, of couse once your Lone Wanderer opens the door, the vacume would kill everyone in the Vault...
  • Nope. Even if a shockwave rippling through the planet or the heat of the explosion didn't kill you, the acceleration you would undergo as the chuck of the planet reached escape velocity in under a second would turn you to paste. Unless you're Son Goku.
• Obi-Wan's been called stupid for hiding Vader's son on his home planet with his only living relatives, but he isn't, really. Tatooine is the place where Anakin spent years as a slave, saw his mother die, and committed his first genocide. Why the heck would he ever want to go back? It was probably the safest place in the galaxy for little Luke. Besides, it worked, didn't it?
  • And it's a backwater planet where law enforcement is of dubious quality and would look mostly for specific things, mainly foreign smugglers. Also, since Anakin Skywalker was from Tatooine, "Skywalker" is likely to be a reasonably common last name there. No need for fake documents, less risk of accidental discovery. Conversely, a lot of the locals probably have heard about this one guy who flipped out and massacred a whole tribe for death of his mother, how was his name again? It's just the sort of thing people tend to remember. If this legend didn't make Luke somewhat noteworthy, that's an argument in favor of the name being widespread.
  • Assuming that anyone actually have tried to hide him at all.
• I just realized something about the fighting in the series. In the Original trilogy every strike was slower and more precise where in the Prequel you have lightning fast combat. Why does it make sense? In the Trilogy everyone's either a lot older (Obi Wan) hardly human (Vader) or a green horn (Luke)
• The fact that if you do watch the movies in numerical order(Episodes I,II,III,IV,V, and VI), they do get better and better. Also, the Force, introduced in a biological, scientific way(midichlorians) is given deeper meaning when the more spiritual nature is explained later on. Science becomes "magic".
• Obi-Wan and Vader are supposed to be Luke's evil and good Fathers. We know that. However, this logically makes Yoda his crochety, cranky, selfish, but still wise grandpa. And Palpatine suddenly becomes an abusive patriarch who likes pitting his descendants against each other.
• As many others, I sometimes wondered: why did the Death Star had to wait for Yavin IV to come into range instead of blowing Yavin itself and having a free shot. But then it occured to me: Yavin is a gas giant. It means it is mostly hydrogen. It is also way bigger than Jupiter, judging by view from the base. Had the Death Star blown it off like Alderaan, the shock would cause all the hydrogen to fuse, essentially making Yavin into one huge nuke. The resulting explosion would be likely orders of magnitude stronger, and would blast the Deast Star (which was sitting directly on top of Yavin and has crappy shields) to bits.
• The prophecy isn't about Anakin. The prophecy doesn't even matter. The dual-trilogy isn't about how it all began, it's not about how it all ends, it's just the life of one man at this one point in the history of the wars between the Jedi and the Sith.

Phantom Menace

• In The Phantom Menace, a lot of people complained about the submarine having force-field windows, including me. Then I suddenly realized "Wait a moment. It's a Gungan submarine. Gungans are amphibious, so for them those windows are a safety feature!" --Whitewings
  • Plus, considering that the planet's oceans go all the way through the core, there's the simple matter that the pressure at depths like that would be too much for any glass to handle.
• While I always liked the TPM, there was one thing that I think I completely misunderstood. At first, the Jedi Council is dead set against training Anakin, because he is too old, and there are all those Mommy issues... Then, in the end, the Council agrees, though Yoda still is against it. I always thought that they agreed because it was Qui-Gon's last wish and they maybe felt that they owed him. Or something. But, that wasn't the reason. At least, it wasn't the only reason. Anakin is the Chosen One (the Council never really doubted that after testing him) who is supposed to bring balance, that means, eradicate the Sith. First, when Qui-Gon tells about his encounter with Darth Maul on Tatooine and that he thinks Maul is a Sith, Mace Windu is incredulous. The Sith died out, he thinks. Without Sith, they don't need a Chosen One who is a potential loose cannon. But, when Yoda makes states the Council's decision in the end, he also explains that Darth Maul was indeed a Sith, they are sure of that now. And that is why the Council changed their minds. And, since there will be a second Sith, they will actually need The Chosen One. So he must be trained. It had nothing to do with Qui-Gon dying, but with realizing there actually was a Phantom Menace out there and they could not do without Anakin. - Liliedhe
  • Holy shit.
    • I second that. Holy crap on a cracker that's effing brilliant.
  • Yes, and if the Jedi Council took him in, then he wouldn't be out in the wild for the Sith to grab. But then Palpatine performs his simple workaround.
  • But the workaround failed in the end. Anakin ended up being the one who tossed Palpatine in the pit and, by returning to the Light Side, destroyed the Sith utterly. Even when Luke turned to the Dark Side, he did not become a Sith. Anakin's whole reason for existing was tied up in that one CMO; even to the point of making his EMO years integral to the end result - he had to cross over for a time to defeat Palpatine.
    • There's a school of thought on this, given explicit voice to in the novelization of Revenge of the Sith, which postulates that the Chosen One prophecy was misinterpreted by the Jedi. The Jedi Order had become moribund and was allied with a corrupt government; the Jedi themselves were out of balance with the Force. The Choose One, who would bring Balance to the Force would have to destroy the Jedi Order, as well as the Sith before balance could be restored. So, the Chosen One did fulfill the prophecy, just not in the way anyone -Jedi or Sith- expected.
      • I realized, about the time of the third movie, when i was depressed utterly with Lucas' lost talent, that he wasn't as terrible as i thought. "Balance to the force"—how can it be balanced when there are two dark-practitioners and hundreds that follow the light? He manages to balance it on a fundamental, simple level: by bringing the Jedi in line with the Sith, only having a master and an apprentice (Yoda and Obi-Wan) remain. 2=2, thus balanced.
    • This has been brought up before (in fact, I'm pretty sure it's mentioned somewhere on this page already), but that's not what he meant by "balance". It means destroying the Sith because they're, as Palpatine alluded to, unnatural.
  • The word 'balance' was poorly chosen. The Force and the Jedi religion are essentially Space Daoism. There is a natural order to things and the ultimate goal of a person's life is to fit himself into harmony with the universe, to find his path (his dao) and walk it. The Sith are out of harmony, they are an unbalancing force. The Jedi seek harmony, balance with the will of the Force. It would have been better if the prophecy said that the Chosen One would bring harmony.
• I realized the title The Phantom Menace is brilliant. It refers not only to the Sith, who are returning unbeknownst to the Jedi, and also to Anakin! Anakin is, or will be, a great threat to the Jedi, but nobody knows it yet!
  • You may be right, though I've always thought it to refer, in all likelihood, to the opening dialogue:

"I've got a bad feeling about this."
"Really? I don't sense anything at all!"
"It's not about the mission, master: it's something...elsewhere...elusive...."

• • • But those things could both be the same thing! The "something" could be the Sith and/or Anakin! That's how I always saw it, anyway?
• There didn't seem to be much reason behind the battle of Naboo (aside from providing action sequences) until I watched all of the movies back to back. Once the movies are seen in order, It is much easier to see the subtleties of the ultimate plot and how Palpatine really was manipulating everything from the very start.
  • The battle of Naboo was a a Xanatos Gambit by Palpatine, and a particularly cunning one at that; so well crafted was the gambit that the movie's viewers, who were privy to information that the protagonists were not, couldn't recognize the gambit for what it was until years later. That's right, Palpatine is such a Magnificent Bastard that his Xanatos Gambits break the 4th wall!
  • That's my personal point of Fridge Brilliance with Star Wars. Whether or not he deserved it, Palpatine certainly EARNED his Empire. He orchestrated an entire war. He told the Trade Federation to blockade THE PLANET HE WORKED FOR, to force a vote to implant him as Chancellor. He urged the Seperatists to separate, while urging the Republic to bring them back in, to start a conflict. He orchestrated wide-scale conflict—CONTROLLING BOTH SIDES—without being caught by authorities other than Anakin, ever. He made his own treason look like others' treason, thus granting him the final push he needed for the reorganization of the Senate, plus the PR reasoning behind Order 66. And once the Senate finally noticed what seemed to be going on, he had the power to destroy the organization itself, as Tarkin noted on the Death Star: "The Emperor has dissolved the Senate. The last remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away." All Palpatine didn't control, in the movies, were the Rebels. Brilliant. --Aescula
    • Which, according to the (apparently) canon Force Unleashed was created as a Xanatos Gambit by Vader. Which was a bit of Fridge Brilliance in and on itself -Arzeef
• Kind of a small thing but... why is it that in The Phantom Menace it's Padme who calls for the vote of no confidence in the Supreme Chancellor? She is the Queen of Naboo, not the Nubian senator (at that point), technically she shouldn't have any official part to play except for serving as a witness to the Trade Federation's actions. Calling for the vote should have been Palpatine's responsibility.
  • Perhaps as the queen, she acts as an honorary senator?
  • She's speaking on behalf of her people, not as a member of the legislative body. She suggests a vote of no confidence and the Senate follows through. -The Paisley Chair

Attack of the Clones

• When we see Padme in Aot C at the villa where she and Anakin have their first kiss, before that she begins to describe the water when she was a child. In Rot S when she dies, the dress she wears for her funeral procession is often remarked to (and Word of God states that it was inspired by) Ophelia's death from Hamlet. When 'Anakin' dies and 'Darth Vader' is born, where does that happen? In Mustafa, where he's burned into the fire mere minutes after he chokes Padme, his saving grace, his Morality Pet, the only person who can ever really calm him and his passion down. Fire is to water what Anakin was to Padme, at least before he kills her and becomes Darth Vader.
  • In Episode II, I always hated the scene where Anakin relates to Padme what happened when he went to rescue his mother from the Tusken Raiders. I chalked this hate up to either bad acting or bad writing, because Anakin seemed to do so much emotional flip-flopping in the film that I couldn't get a good bead on his character. It wasn't until I watched the DVD version of the film and noticed an extra few seconds at the end of that scene (which I don't think was in the theatrical version, though I may have simply overlooked it) in which Padme says something along the basic lines of "everyone is human" that I realized that the reason for Anakin's grief was not the slaughtered Tusken (which he proclaims rather fiercely to hate), but his own failing as a Jedi (who is supposed to be impervious to that sort of strong emotion). - Rian Winters
• After a few ties watching the Yoda vs Palpatine fight scene I saw something, at the very end, just as Yoda manages to deflect the final force attack, you see him reeling back from it, and just before he rebounds and deflects it you can see his expression change, he is PISSED, and it's this surge of anger that gives him the ability to save himself at the last second, and also why he ran immediatly after, it wasn't that he didn't have the power to challenge him, but that he realized he couldn't do so without falling to unleashing the anger at what Palpatine had managed to do, and why no Jedi alive at the time stood a chance, it was just too personal. They needed to wait for a strong force user for who Palpatine's deeds wouldn't be so immediately personal.
  • This idea actually reinforced earlier in the same movie, since there WAS a Jedi who managed to overpower Palpatine in combat: Mace Windu, a Jedi that invented his own form of lightsaber combat that feeds off of raw emotion and strays dangerously close to the Dark Side.
    • Mace Windu's fighting style is based on him letting himself enjoy the fight, and using the same principles as the Dark Side...does that mean he strikes down his enemies with great vengeance and furious anger?
• One of this criticisms I've heard for "Attack of the Clones" was that the final battle between the clone troopers and droids was idiotic - they just lined up and shot at each other. Then I realized that this might actually make sense for two reasons:
  • The clone troopers were trained, but who trained the trainers? The Republic apparently hasn't a major war in a thousand years. That's a lot of time for bad ideas to creep into their institutional experience, and good ones to drain out (particularly if most of their ground troop usage was for things like police actions/suppressing riots, where marching in ranks would be a good tactic).
  • Perhaps the last time the Republic fought a major ground war, shield technology was greater than offensive weapon technology on the ground (like how it is with the Gungans and their giant shield in "Phantom Menace"). In such a situation, marching in close ranks might actually make sense, since you would maximize the number of troops covered by the shield.-Bass
    • There's also another point that I realized while I read this. A lot of people (myself included, admittedly) criticized the use of outdated combat tactics with futuristic technology. Except... the vast majority of the small arms in the Star Wars films are portrayed as semi-automatics. Modern infantry tactics weren't really adopted until the mass adaptation of fully automatic rifles for every infantry unit. The tactics before that were really based around mass deployment of a combination of fully automatic weapons and self-loading or bolt-action rifles (the latter greatly outnumbering the former). Even before then, in WWI, tactics were massed around men using bolt-actions being supported by machine guns. The clones and droids fight more like a 19th century army using single-shot rifles. This would be strange, but, as a general rule, that's what they are! The clones use mostly their large rifles, and the CIS droids have a mixture of weapons that have similar capabilities (though Super Battle Droids seem to be top of the line with rapid-fire blasters in their arms shown in Aot C). The Clone army does mix things up with more close combat support (shown with the gunships at the end of Aot C) instead of going to full auto. It's not that they can't adapt modern tactics, they just haven't had any of our universe's reason to. Compounded with the lack of wars until the prequel trilogy, that's a pretty strong argument for Lucas knowing what he was doing.
  • Sorry...but no. First off, neither the clones nor droids actually use bolt-action rifles (not sure why you then brought up 19th century one-shot rifles..different story entirely). Its very obvious that both sides have at the worst semi-automatic weaponry and in most cases weapons seem much closer to full auto. However, even with bolt-action rifles there would still be absolutely no excuse for the lack of any sensible tactics in the entire Star Wars saga. Anyone who thinks Lucas knows what he was talking about in a military sense knows even less than him, he has never even tried to be realistic and has always said he intended to tell a myth-like hero story. Regardless, if they had WW 1 or WW 2 era weaponry then why wouldn't they use tactics from those eras...? Lucas' idea of a battle is two sides lining up and marching at each other head on, and its only due to other circumstances when a SW battle isn't like this. Even...IN SPACE.
    • Also, cut World War I Generals some slack. After the bloodbaths of the Franco-Prussian war and the US Civil War EVERYBODY knew that marching in ranks was really really dumb. The official tactic of all squads of all relevant Great Powers from 1870 to today remains "Fire and Movement." Some people stay behind cover and shoot to keep the other guys' heads down (helped by the bolt action allowing soldiers to stay prone), and then the others not giving covering fire advanced to get better firing positions. They did this with bolt-action single shot rifles.
    • Finally- the other great big ground battle in Star Wars, the Battle of Hoth, involves some pretty reasonable tactics from both sides, considering what they have at their disposal. The Rebels dig fire trenches and engage appropriate targets (You'll note the turret thingies try to engage the AT-ATs while the infantry slogs it out with the Snowtroopers); the Imperials let their Armoued units smash a hole in the defences and the infantry support the armoured advance. It's not that he didn't know how to do it; he just doesn't care.
      • You mean that battle that took place over 20 years later, which had been filled with low-level conflicts and military actions involving a standing military force?

Revenge of the Sith

• At the end of Revenge of the Sith, we all know that Obi Wan totally misses possibly his best opportunity to finish off Vader once and for all. There's a few explanations attempted (he sensed Palpatine coming, etc.), but he still could've taken the, what, second and a half it would've taken to finish off Anakin, right? Then I read this sentence in If You Kill Him You Will Be Just Like Him: "On the other hand, if a Jedi is completely calm, unswayed by anger or fear, they can kill without risk of falling to the Dark Side." At that moment, Obi Wan is overcome by fear and anger, because of the betrayal of his apprentice and friend. He couldn't have killed Anakin in that moment without risking falling to the Dark Side himself. -- Mr Death
  • Nope. Read the book. Obi Wan knew that to kill him would be to show mercy. "He was not feeling particularly merciful." He wanted Anakin to burn.
  • Obi-Wan didn't expect Vader to survive. Vader lost all three of his remaining real limbs and he was on fire. In a book set shortly after Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan is clearly surprised to hear Vader is still alive and kicking. Anakin was also the closest thing Obi-Wan would ever have to a son. He literally couldn't bring himself to strike a killing blow on a man who was essentially his child. --jedimaster91
• I thought Anakin's Force-choking Padme was done perfectly. Everybody knows since Anakin turns to the Dark Side, he'll Force-choke someone for the first time. But who? Obi-Wan? Jar Jar? Nope, it was Padme. Anakin's love, and his moral anchor. The only one who was stopping Anakin from completely slipping into darkness. It definitely plays into the perspective that Darth Vader is a damned Anakin Skywalker, and every time we see him choke someone in the OT, he's reliving that tragic moment where he lost his love.
  • And illustrating that point of reliving that moment is this scene in A New Hope:

Motti: Don't try to fighten us with your sorceror's ways, Lord Vader. Your sad devotion to that ancient religion has not helped you conjure the stolen datatapes. Or given you clairvoyance enough to find the Rebels' hidden fortre-
(Vader raises his hand and starts Force-choking Motti)
Vader: I find your lack of faith disturbing.

• • After watching Revenge of the Sith, you'll see that Motti was right. Turning to the Dark Side didn't do the one thing Anakin was hoping it would do.
    • Maybe that's why it made Vader get so chokey.
  • Interestingly, Vader's earlier statement was also right: "The ability to destroy planets is insignificant next to the power of the Force". Death Star, for all its power, was essentially taken out by a single force-sensitive fighter.
• Many people find Vader's Big No in Revenge of the Sith to be pure Narm, but it's entirely in character. Despite his horrific actions towards the movie's end, Anakin is not quite Vader yet. Not as long as he's attached to Padme. I personally think there never was a Darth Plagueis, let alone one who manipulated the Force to extend or create life. I think Palpatine/Sidious was simply stringing Anakin along. He saw Anakin's strong attachment/devotion to her, and expanded his trilogy-long Xanatos Gambit to take her out. Padme was Anakin's moral hypothenus, if you will. It's only when Anakin loses his dearest supporter that he embraces the Dark Side and becomes Darth Vader, and declares Anakin Skywalker dead. That is, till he sees Luke in The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.
  • Word of God says you're wrong about Plagueis as well as the creation of life thing (Lucas has explictly stated Anakin was created by Plagueis). But Palpatine was stringing Anakin a long, since as he admits after Anakin turns to the Dark Side that he didn't know the mecanics of Plagueis' powers, just that Palgueis had these capabilities.
• I always thought the Buzz Droid missiles in Revenge of the Sith were stupid and pointlessly inefficient, since a missile would do the job better. Then I realized, they're anti-capital ship weapons. They're probably designed to break through the hull of large ships and wander through the crawlspaces ripping apart vital electronics and subsystems, causing more damage to a ship than a single explosive torpedo could ever do. This still doesn't explain why the fighter fired them at starfighters instead of their intended target, but at least they have a logical purpose.
  • I'd think that right after the capital ship, Jedi Starfighters are also VERY high-priority targets. They had a good shot at Obi-Wan's fighter, and didn't have one at the capital. Remember, there were only two Jedi at the battle, both absolutely critical to rescue Palpatine. Also important is that they aimed for Obi-Wan. He is Anakin's moral compass just as much as Padme. He is also the one person Anakin explicitly trusts without question. Without him, Anakin has zero ties to the Jedi Order, and his expulsion would be only a matter of time. The only one who would teach him after that? Palpatine.
  • The point wasn't that it was stupid to waste the buzz droids on starfighters, but that other than against capital ships they would be utterly pointless. They are laughable in comparison to guided missiles for example, who instantly destroy a ship instead of having to latch on and saw through it for 5 minutes to hopefully do some damage. The point is if they didn't use such a moronic weapon they probably WOULD have taken out both Anakin and Obi-Wan or at least had a chance to.
    • Point of order- they fired at both Anakin and Obi-Wan- Anakin was able to evade the missiles, (well, spiral them into each other). (And several sources put other Jedi in the battle- we just didn't see them in the movie) But I do agree, Jedi fighters of any configuration would likely be at the top of any of the droids target lists, given their high value.
• In Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan says to Yoda something along the lines of "Anakin is like a brother to me" when told to deal with Anakin. In Return of the Jedi, when Luke says he can't kill his own father, Obi-Wan says "then the emperor has already won." At first, this might seem like hypocrisy on Obi-Wan's part, and it's not like Obi-Wan is above it. However, thinking about it even further, you realize that it implies Obi-Wan simply "learned his lesson" from earlier dealings with Anakin; namely, not to let emotional connections get in the way of doing what had to be done. Obi-Wan himself "almost" hesitated because of these emotional connections and would understandably want to discourage his later students from making the same mistake. It turns out not to be really necessary, of course, but that just adds to the Fridge Brilliance; Obi-Wan got the wrong impression about what had to be done, because he learned the wrong lessons from past experiences... - neoYTPism
  • You can do better than that. Later in Return of the Jedi, Vader outright tells Luke that "Obi-Wan once thought as you do."
• After the Vader vs. Obi-Wan duel in Revenge of the Sith, Obi-Wan says "you were The Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the sith, not join them! Bring balance to the force, not leave it in darkness!" However, before Anakin got involved there were two sith (Maul and Sidious) and hundreds of Jedi. (Not explicitly stated in the films IIRC, but at least apparent from the arena battle in Attack of the Clones.) When Obi-Wan made the aforementioned statement, though, there were two sith (Vader and Sidious) and two jedi, (Yoda and Obi-Wan) so in a way, Anakin really did balance out the force. - neoYTPism
• Also, in Revenge of the Sith, Anakin clearly falls for Palpatine's flattery of him, but in Return of the Jedi, Vader is bluntly dismissive of Jerjerrod's flattery of him. At first this might seem a bit inconsistent, but when you think about it, perhaps it tells us that that the negative consequences of listening to Palpatine's flattery gave him some level of distrust for flattery, as if he learned some of the right lessons from what happened. - neoYTPism
• There was something I didn't notice before until I saw Revenge of the Sith again. In a scene in The Phantom Menace, Anakin is whittling a small charm "for luck" and gives it to Padme so that she can remember him by it. I always regarded it to be a throwaway scene, or just to emphasize Anakin's crush on Padme, but it gained new meaning at the end of Revenge of the Sith. During one of the last scenes, the dead body of Padme is seen at a funeral procession and if you look closely at her body, you can see that the same charm worn as a necklace. I then realized that this was purposely done: Padme's last words to Obi-Wan were "There's still good in him". Padme still sees Anakin as the person she once knew, not the one he has become, and she keeps that belief with her to her death. The charm is literally meant to remember him by. --KH

A New Hope

• The scene where Luke swings himself and Leia across the chasm in the Death Star escape was yet another homage/crib by Lucas from a classic movie, but no one ever seems to mention it in the rundown of all the tributes (Dambusters, Hidden Fortress) contained in Star Wars. It's taken directly from 1958's "The Seventh Voyage of Sinbad" - wherein Sinbad is rescuing a princess from the fortress of an evil wizard (sound familiar?) and at one point is forced to do that exact move.
• Many of the scenes that give Imperial Stormtroopers their reputation as coming from the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy come from the segment when everyone is rescuing Leia from the Death Star. But at the end of the scene, it's revealed that the Imperials let them escape deliberately so they could track them to the imperial base. The stormtroopers were missing on purpose! (Obviously, this doesn't cover everything later on, but whenever they miss Luke, the same idea applies, since Vader specifically orders him taken alive.)
• So, the last two remaining Jedi have decided to go into hiding, taking Vader's children and secreting them away from him. One goes off to live with a trusted ally of the Jedi council. The other? They decide to put him on his father's home planet, with his father's half-brother and his wife, using his father's birth name.

Empire Strikes Back

• In Empire Strikes Back, when Han is tortured by the Empire on Cloud City, he says "They never even asked me any questions." When I saw the movie as a kid, I thought they were just being mean, because that's what Bad Guys do. Years later when re-watching, I realized that the purpose for the torture was to create psychic bait for Luke. Because he saw visions of the future while he was still on Dagobah, we've already seen him respond to what's happening to them now!
• In interviews about The Empire Strikes Back screenwriter Lawrence Kasdan admitted that he hated writing for C-3PO because there was nothing for him to do in the story. Anthony Daniels(C-3PO) also complained that because he wasn't interacting with Artoo as much in the second film, he spent most of the time as a nag to the heroes and essentially being The Load. It would seem that Threepio had a completely useless role in TESB. However when you get to Return of the Jedi you realize it was very important for Threepio to be there to witness the events of the past two movies because he ends up relating it all later to the Ewoks on Endor! His storytelling by the fireside to all the Ewok villagers about Luke and company's previous heroic adventures is what makes the Ewoks want to help the Rebels and what turns the tide in their favor in the Battle of Endor and the successful destruction of the Second Death Star! --Fastbak
• This situation was even mocked by Family Guy. At the end of Empire Strikes Back, Lando and Chewie are in the Millennium Falcon and Lando is inexplicably wearing Han's clothes. Then it hit me. All of Lando's clothes are still back on Cloud City! And it's not like there's so much as a K-Mart in the rebel fleet. Lando has nothing to wear except Han's clothes. - The One True Hammer
  • Well, the conversation with Han and Lando in their first meeting reveals that the Falcon was once Lando's ship. Because of that, it's likely that it was HAN that was wear Lando's old clothing and Lando is only now reclaiming them.
• Along the Lando-Cloud City line, something occured to me today about the Millennium Falcon's approach to Bespin. Vader & Boba Fett are already there, and Lando knows they plan on arresting Han & company as soon as they arrive. He can't tell them to go away because the Empire will massacre Cloud City, so he tries to have his sentries scare them off with a "misunderstanding." That way, it just looks like the Falcon got spooked & took off, and Lando can stick to the "Han Solo? I haven't seen that guy in years" story he probably (honestly) gave Vader when he first arrived. When Han doesn't get the hint, Lando has no choice but to hand him over.
• A rather small instance, but in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader is pursuing the Millenium Falcon intently for most of the movie. Although later on we see that he wanted to get his hands on Luke's friends to draw him back via using a connection through the force to show them that they were in danger, he mentions clearly at an earlier point when they're hiding in the asteroid field that "They're still here." Generally, Jedi or Sith are the most sensitive to other force users or those sensitive to the force, so it is entirely plausible that Vadar may have been sensing Leia, or thought that he was sensing Luke when it was Leia instead (you know, considering that they're twins and all).

Return of the Jedi

• I used to find the victory of the Ewoks over the Imperial forces on Endor to be fairly unrealistic. Midgets in teddy bear suits, right? This is where most people stop imagining. Take it one step further though: Here we have a primitive, barbaric race of miniaturized bears, their arms as muscular as their legs, their brains advanced enough to develop flight and ranged warfare at the very dawn of their civilization. With no training at all, a normal Ewok can commandeer an Imperial speeder bike and successfully evade trained troops. Not only did they capture a Rebel strike force, but that strike force would have been utterly annihilated if it didn't happen to include the only Jedi in the entire galaxy. The Ewoks devour their defeated. The greatest army the Emperor could assemble was not simply defeated by this culture of killer-bears... they were eaten. -- menace 64
• In the beginning of Return of the Jedi, Vader and Jerjerrod discuss the Emperor's impending arrival. Vader concludes the discussion with "I hope so, Commander, for your sake. The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am." I can't believe it took me a while to figure out what he really meant by "forgiving". Vader would just kill Jerjerrod quickly via a Force Choke, while the Emperor Palpatine would slowly torture Jerjerrod for fun, then kill him.

Other

• While watching The Clone Wars movie just now it came to the point where Anakin and Ahsoka are coming out of hyperspace after rescuing Jabba's son and on approach to Tatooine (this is before the space battle with the two magnaguards). Anakin says something to the effect of "Tatooine, I wish I wouldn't have to see this dustball again." Followed by a prompt from Ahsoka asking about what happened and Anakin not wanting to talk about it. It came to me that this interaction is probably the very reason why Anakin never found Luke and Obi-Wan, he never approached Tatooine in the 20 years since ROTS. Now this was something I'd already known, but it's another thing that shows how clever the "Clone Wars" writers can be.
• Mostly an Expanded Universe thing, but there didn't seem to be an appropriate SWEU column in either comics or lit, so I'm posting it here: The worst damage the Sith ever did to the Jedi (I suppose you could argue their near-total extinction at the hands of Sidious, but shut up, I'm trying to make a point here) was the war with Exar Kun. Prior to Exar Kun falling to the Dark Side, the Jedi were a massive, loose coalition of wandering monks and righters-of-wrongs, Jedi Masters would keep in contact with each other and refer apprentices to one another. Masters would train a couple new Knights, whatever suited their personal style, and, on the whole, the Jedi seemed very open-minded and trustworthy (possibly a side-effect of there not being a whole lot of stories set beore TOTJ). But in response to Exar Kun declaring himself the Lord of the Sith and declaring war on the Jedi and the Republic, the Jedi are forced to crystalize into something more akin to the Jedi we see in the Prequels. In fact, reading Tales of the Jedi after the release of the Prequels, keeping in mind the KOTOR games and comics and the other stuff in between, such as Jedi Vs. Sith and the Pre-Prequel stories of their prominent Jedi, you can almost see the Butterfly Effect rippling out from the Jedi getting together to fight Exar Kun, watching them slowly evolve into the impotent, detached order we see euthanized in the Prequels. 4,000 years of your worst enemy gradually evolving into something completely powerless to stop your successors from taking over the Galaxy. Not bad for a snot-nosed punk who just thought his Zoideberg-esque master needed to take off the training wheels a bit sooner.
• I've been watching these movies, reading the books, and playing the video games literally my whole life, and I can't believe that in all that time I hadn't wondered about this much earlier. But it hit me when I was playing Knights of the Old Republic and was introduced to the Wookiee named Zaalbar. If you're a Wookiee and you want to introduce yourself to a human, your name ought to sound the same in Basic as it does in Shyriiwook, right? So when somebody asks Chewbacca what his name is, and he says "Urf-rawr-growl," people are going to call him "Urf-rawr-growl," right? For people to call Chewbacca or Zaalbar "Chewbacca" and "Zaalbar", the Wookiee would need to be able to make the sounds that make up his name...right? That's how it works with other languages in the SW universe; despite speaking his own language, Greedo still distinctly says "Solo" and "Jabba" in A New Hope.
  • It could be that most races aren't capable of making the sounds Wookies use to name themselves, so they adopt names in Basic for communicating with others. Greedo speaks a language with sounds humans can produce, so he can keep his old name; Chewbacca doesn't seem to. (Many immigrants who move to English-speaking countries in the real world change their name for this reason, if their language is hard to pronounce in the local tongue.)
• In the most recent Star Wars Insider magazine this troper got, there was an article talking about a book that will be released titled Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Conviction. The author Aaron Allston in the article said that the Jedi Order ends up taking control of the Galactic Alliance government. He makes it clear that this is a bad thing, and that the situation would be akin to the World Wrestling Federation suddenly taking over NATO. He also points that apart from Leia, the Jedi have shown on the political level that they are only good at settling problems through quick and confident acts of violence. This troper thought about what the article said and then realized something. Practically no Jedi, except for Leia, has ever been a politician. The Jedi Order truly has little to no concept of the mechanics of politics and how running a government works. Then this troper realized that this explains a number of things. It explains why Obi-Wan assumed that Padme was a greedy, looking-out-for-herself politician (when she was the total opposite), and did not seem to lump Palpatine with her. It explains why the Jedi never seemed to sense anything out of the ordinary with Palpatine - how could they when they understood nothing about the political machinery he was hiding in? It explains why Jacen Solo did a horrible job of running the government - because he did not really understand how politics work. It also explains why the Sith did a horrible job of running the government...they knew how the system worked, but only to benefit themselves and not how to use it to benefit everyone else.
• Regarding the question on why Palpatine did not sense Vader turning on him, this troper realized something. In the book Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Revelation, Ben Skywalker thinks to himself how Jacen Solo had become so saturated in war, danger and deceit that he ended up treating danger as noise to be filtered out (as an explanation for why Jacen's danger sense did not kick in while he was confessing to murdering Mara Jade and he was being recorded without his knowledge). This troper realized that this explanation could easily be applied to Palpatine and the Sith. This explanation could even apply to the Jedi Order. The danger sense ability is actually unreliable (especially in war) and the Jedi and Sith fail to realize this one simple fact (instead they rely on it too much).

Fridge Horror

• The fate of the Ewoks in Star Wars isn't apparent until you apply rigorous physical analysis. It's bad for the fridge's motor to leave the door open that long.
  • Fridge Brilliance saves it. While the Rebels destroyed the shield projector protecting the Death Star, they did not disable the shields protecting the moon itself, therefore, the shields did their job and protected the planet from what otherwise would have been total destruction.
  • Well, while we're on fridge horror and Ewoks, consider that the Ewok captured our heroes with the original intent of eating them. Then the Ewoks assist our heroes, killing many imperial forces. Then they have a great feast at the end of the movie... a feast where they're using empty stormtrooper helmets as drums... Yum.
    • Not just eating the heroes, they were ok with roasting them alive, too. So, with that in mind, let's revisit the feast: Singing...dancing...music...the occasional Wilhelm scream, off in the distance..."Leek-laloo-lalalooo-laa"... 'buuurp'...
      • On the subject of Ewok diets, Han, Luke, R2 and Threepio were all caught and hoisted smoothly by a game trap. By my rough calculations, that trap was designed to hold roughly a half a ton of ticked-off meat eater. What in any world were the Ewoks trying to trap?!
  • Another Ewok Fridge Horror thought: protocol droids aren't exactly rare, and some of them work for the Empire. If the Imperial troops stationed at Endor had gotten peckish for some local food, and brought one down to trade beads with the natives, they could've pulled a God Gambit on the little guys and turned them into cannon-fodder against the rebel party.
• In Episode I, Queen Amidala has a decoy so any attempts at assassination would fail. Sounds bad, but it's just something that comes with such a high political position. Then you remember that she was 14 in the movie, so they would have to hire a similarly aged young girl to take any and all bullets intended for the Queen.
• In Episode II, Anakin kills Sand People. An act of revenge driven by hate. Yoda apparently knows about it, judging by a clip of his reaction, and does nothing.
  • He didn't know what Anakin did exactly, all he heard was Qui-gon telling Anakin to stop, and his soon to be Vader breathing.
• In Episode III, Anakin Skywalker (newly named Darth Vader) is ordered to kill all the younglings in the Jedi Temple. Pretty bad already. And then you recall the fact that Force sensitive children are brought in to the temple when they're a few months old...
• Not only was it downright stupid for the Jedi to make use of the clone army without question, it was also incredibly immoral: They're essentially an army of brainwashed slaves, since it's not like the clone troopers exactly got a choice about joining. Extra material points out the fact that many clones could prove mentally unstable and their accelerated development included a shortened lifespan. So essentially, the Jedi condone the creation of genetically-modified child soldiers. Not to mention the fact that they're still on guard duty and quite possibly have been for hundreds of years
  • In the EU, there are clones who do end up deserting, however their lives aren't exactly easy after that. Palpatine's method for dealing with deserters? Send Clone assassin squads after them. Or worse yet, what happens to clones who are injured to the point that they can survive, but never be fit for duty again? The only way you could officially leave the army was in a body bag.
    • Except for the fact that they didn't quite condone it. Get Traviss's preaching out of your head, what other choice did they have? It was either the clones or the few poorly trained and equipped security forces they had. Besides, they had no input into the creation of this army, it was literally a last-minute reveal. Is it still bad to use slave armies? yes it is, but it would kind of be a kick in the nuts to just cast them aside right after they deployed.
• Stop and consider for a brief moment the fact that nobody bothered to tell Luke was Vader's son. Essentially, Obi-Wan and Yoda had set up Luke to kill his father without ever knowing the truth. He might have even gone further down the Oedipus Rex path if he'd married Leia!
• In the original trilogy, Palpatine and Vader seem perfectly aware of the force, and Vader is shown mentioning it to other Imperial officers in A New Hope, but they seem to perceive it as just another religion. However, they (or at least some of them) also seem to be aware that the Jedi were mostly wiped out, as implied by one of Tarkin's conversations with Vader, in which Tarkin says "you, my friend, are all that is left of their religion." Now think about this in light of the prequel trilogy. "Order 66" was already heinous, but we know from the context that it was at least somewhat pragmatic; Palpatine wiped out the Jedi because they were the only rivals to himself and Vader in knowledge of the force. Tarkin, however, not believing in the Force, is probably unaware that this was the reason. Now think about what he said once more. "All that is left of their religion." In other words, he condones having people rounded up and killed for their religious beliefs. Sure, we know he was bad news from the start, but still...
  • • Supplemental materials actually show that the idea of religious persecution is one of the more tame opinions of Tarkin. Ever wonder why Imperials are all humans? It's because one of the policies of the Empire was radical and violent racism against non human species. EU writers have basically made Tarkin a Star Wars Captain Ersatz of real life monster Heinrich Himmler, the head of the SS, who many believe was actually worse than Hitler.
      • Tarkin himself never expressed disbelief in the Force. That was Admiral Motti. Tarkin's later statement about Vader being the last of his religion indicates that he accepts Vader's power even if he's not a practitioner.
      • This extends to Dooku as well. In the novelization of Attack of the Clones, he is eager to establish the empire... a Human empire.
• In the Star Wars universe as a whole, Alternative Character Interpretation is the reason why many end up not supporting the Jedi. At first, the Jedi are painted as a peaceful, almost monk-like organization, centered around achieving balance with themselves and the universe. However, consider for a moment the following facts. The Jedi is a warrior cult who operate entirely on their own, and have nobody regulating them, other than the fact that they usually go along with what the Senate wants... except when the Jedi decide they don't like it. Now imagine that the Jedi, in the course of their "duties," have the right to search people's homes and property with no authorization, can read people's minds, can actually control some people's minds, and have the right to kill people they don't approve of. Remember in episode two, when Anakin and Obi Wan dismember a person in front of a crowd of bargoers? "Jedi business, go back to your drinks." Sounds a lot more sinister when you consider what you've read here, doesn't it? Now consider that this cult takes people away from their homes and families as small children, so as to better brainwash them into believing their teachings. They force celibacy onto these converts before they even understand the idea of sex. They also preach the total divorce of self from personal emotions, because using one's powers in an emotional state is eeeeeeevil. Anyone who comes to the realization that these people are full of crap are promptly kicked out of the order, unless they leave of their own will. After they are kicked out, they are labeled as "Dark Jedi," because any views other than your own are eeeeeeevil. These people also believe that "balance" in the force consists of people who believe in the application of the force in any way other than theirs being killed.
  • Jedi are analagous to cops. They don't kill people "they don't approve of", they need just cause. "Keepers of the peace, not soldiers." What weakened them was having to fight a war. People who leave the order aren't necessarily "Dark Jedi"; that specifically requires falling to the Dark Side. The "Jedi business" is the equivalent of "police business, nothing to see here", the equivalent of a cop disarming (heh) an armed suspect who is trying to kill them in a manner that keeps both them and the public safe. The Jedi taught serenity to avoid falling to the Dark Side from using one's powers in an emotional state. Jedi are allowed to have sex, just not relationships. (Yes, bad idea, that's the point.) The Sith are a cult of galaxy-conquering megalomaniacs, not just a difference of opinion. Ron the Death Eater much?
    • I know I certainly enjoyed the scenes where the Jedi engaged in due process, presented warrants, and reported back to the senate before taking major actions like attempting to assassinate a sitting prime minister. I mean, when a militaristic religious faction attempts to kill a sitting elected leader in his office without so much as informing anyone else in the government, that totally says "police" and not "dangerous terrorist" in any way, you're right.
    • Analogous, not "exactly the same." Don't be a smartass and stop ignoring and glossing over the fact that, you know, the "sitting elected leader" just made himself emperor for life, instigated a war that killed millions, and controlled the Senate that you're expecting the Jedi to go to.
• Here's a Star Wars Fridge Horror for you: Anakin Skywalker was The Chosen One, prophesied to Bring Balance to the Force. At the time Anakin became a Jedi, there were hundreds(?) of Jedi... and only two Sith (and a few dozen, at most, Dark Jedi). So there's three obvious ways to 'balance' that imbalance: create armies of Sith/Dark Jedi, dramatically power up the existing dark-siders, or kill off the vast majority of the Jedi (which becomes Fridge Brilliance, perhaps, when you consider that at the end of both movie trilogies, there are only two Jedi left (unless you count the EU - but that would balance the Dark Jedi...) This becomes especially Horrible when you consider that either the entire Jedi council was too dumb to realize this - or that they did and let it happen anyway.
  • Word of God says that to the Jedi, "Balance" meant eliminating all the Sith, as they were the imbalance in the Force. Yoda knew that Anakin would ultimately remove the last Sith, but didn't foresee all the horror before then.
  • This particular bit of Fanon in regards to "Balancing the Force" sometimes gets annoying. How stupid do people think the Jedi are?
• From the first film, it is established both that 'droids are sentient and self aware enough to be loveable, sympathetic characters, and that they're routinely memory-wiped.
  • supplementary materials say that it takes a long time without memory wipes to develop these behaviors. R2-D2 hadn't been memory wiped in decades, and I'm pretty sure Anakin built C3P0 like that
• Why do clone troopers have New Zealand accents, apart from the obvious? If we're going by Translation Convention, they're the Star Wars equivalent of New Zealanders- and when Erwin Rommel says he could take and hold hell with New Zealanders, they're tough little buggers.
• Only Imperial Stormtroopers are so precise. Obi-wan should know- he probably used to lead them. Alec Guinness' monotone delivery now seems more like a tortured man trying hard not to relive the days he led the stormtroopers and their predecessors...
  • Also doubles as Fridge Brilliance : The actual Stormtroopers have long ceased to be so precise, but of course Obi-Wan remembers them differently...
  • We have seen Sand People can pick off pod racers buzzing across the canyon floor at 400mph or so. Also, it doesn't take great deal of marksmanship to shoot a corpse at point blank range if one wants it to be less recognizable for some reason. But we know Obi-wan isn't shy of a huge lie to manipulate Luke, and perhaps a few Jedi Mind Tricks. And we know he had at least two reasons for blaming Stormtroopers: to turn Luke from personal vengeance (in old good Anakin's style) and against the Empire.
    • It's also possible that he didn't want Luke to find the real killer. Because the timing is too convenient for him - what would Luke do if they were alive?
• The Expanded Universe tells us that the main Imperial Pilot Academy (or whatever it was called) was located on Alderaan. Which means that when Death Star blew it up, they also killed all the would-be pilots training there. This takes For the Evulz of this act to a whole new level - not only was it unnecessary, it was also extremely counterproductive and may explain why good pilots were hard to find for the Empire...
• Ewoks. They seem cute, but barbecue humans and now they have guns and vehicles?
• In the Star Wars Kinect game, Han Solo does his "I'm Han Solo" dance number singing how good it feels to be free from carbonite. All the while, he's standing not five feet from the carbonite freezing mechanism.
• I always thought that Anakin’s turn was rushed. It seemed like one moment he was a decent moral man who had signs of jealousy and obsession and the next he was a full blown psychopath. There seemed to be no definite point where Anakin snapped and became Darth Vader, it seemed to just happen all of a sudden like we, the audience, had missed a scene. Also Anakins slaughter of the younglings seemed to be just something that lucas threw in as a cheap shock and had little narrative or character value. Until I watched it today I thought it was all just poor writing but then it hit me. When Anakin goes to the jedi council chamber and is confronted by younglings a young blonde haired boy who bares a certain resemblance to a young Anakin comes forward and talks to him. The boy looks at Anakin and stands right in the spot where young Anakin stood when he was brought before the Jedi Council all those years ago. When Anakin murders the children, this is the moment where he fully “snaps” and falls completely to the darkside. Before that Anakin was merely going through the motions, doing what he could just to save Padme’s life. The murder of the younglings is his final “test” if you will and he passes with flying colours. The young boy represents the innocence that Anakin once had and that he now destroys leaving only the power hungry and petulant madman that Padme and Obi Wan encounter on Mustafar.