Mobile Suit Gundam SEED Destiny/Headscratchers

Where the hell do I start? First off where did the competency go of the Earth Federation after the first episode? They were competent in storming Armory 1 and for the rest of the series they're a bunch of retards.

• It's really easy to look competent when you sneak into a place that wasn't expecting any real threats. In other words, surprise is a devastating tactic when used right.
  • Let's not kid ourselves here. The director's bias is plain and clear throughout the whole thing, he was even quoted saying that Orb was his ideal Japan. And look, Orb is always the victim, and always comes out on top. The actions of the EA are just pathetically retarded, and all of their mobile suit pilots graduated from the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship Academy. Seriously, I can't remember how much a titular character was hovering in place observing the battle field before a Mook or two takes a few shots at him that blatantly miss. How do you miss a stationary target! And they can barely even use a shield.
• Can we stop exaggerating things so much? I mean it was obvious, that as a carrier of a Villain Ball the Earth Federation was going to get its butt kicked. Does it bug you that Zeon forces got trounced by the White Base crew all the time? And really, the first Curb Stomp Battle against the Earth Federation was Lohengrin Gate. They still remained a credible threat until the rampage of Minerva trio through the Angel's Base.
• The Earth Alliance actually made some really intelligent decisions between Seed and Destiny. The short version is that they combined defense-oriented hordebreaker units (the mobile armors, with their Deflector Shields and Beam Spam) with Zerg Rush Glass Cannon Death From Above units (the Windam, which blew up with alarming frequency, but had a beam rifle so could OHKO most targets and could fly, which gave it a huge advantage over 95% of the ZAFT MS prior to the introduction of the GOUF, not to mention the fact that there were a lot of Windams out there), and had an elite unit in the form of Phantom Pain for special ops. The only thing they lacked -- which caused their eventual downfall -- was something capable of standing up to an enemy Gundam. Seriously, the Minerva basically singlehandedly won the war for ZAFT -- at the Lohengrin Gate, Heaven's Base, the battle for Requiem, etc -- because the Earth Alliance didn't have anything that could take down a Gundam. Which in a sane world wouldn't matter, because your handful of Gundams can only be in one place at a time, so can't win a war by themselves, but... well, in the end, the show is called Gundam for a reason. Meaning that the Earth Alliance in Destiny is more guilty of Genre Blindness than incompetence.
  • It's also worth noting that despite being run by a total General Failure, the Earth Forces fought a fine tactical war up until the destruction of Heaven's Base. Sure, they lost battles, but they inflicted heavy casualties on ZAFT, wiped out Eurasia as a threat, and--even after losing the land war--came within a hair's breadth of taking out the colonies with Requiem. It was their strategy and public relations that sucked. Individual battles were handled just fine.
  • It is even worse if you remember that in the previous war, the EA was decently capable of countering enemy Gundams with their own self-produced Gundam force.
• At which point did it seem like a good idea to have your top secret weapon piloted by a retard who once danced off a cliff?
  • Which reminds me, why didn't Stellar drown? The show would be a lot better without her stupidity mucking things up.
  • To be fair, Stellar's not exactly retarded; she's more like a combat savant. Notice that while she's extremely childlike and Moe outside of battle, she gets serious and, actually, downright dangerous in combat. Remember that in order to get into her Gundam, she dropped six trained ZAFT soldiers with a gun/knife combo attack. She's also pretty dangerous in her early fights against Shinn (oddly, she seems to be less dangerous in the Destroy than she was in the Gaia). As for why she acts childlike outside of combat? I haven't seen any Word of God, but I'd say it's either the whole savant thing, or it's a result of her being raised differently from the other Extendeds. Specifically, she may have been raised more as a weapon than as a person, unlike her teammates. Her third person speech pattern would in this case be the result of her trainers deciding that really proper grammar was less important to teach her than combat skills. Her lack of a true childhood would also explain why she sees everything in the world as amazing: she hasn't really been exposed to it before. Admittedly, this is just a hypothesis, but I don't think it's a terrible one.
    • As far as her performance in the Destroy vs the Gaia goes, the Destroy is meant for use against armies and other large targets. Using it against a single, fast moving target (like Shinn or Kira) would be akin to trying to shoot down an airplane with the main guns on a battleship. The Destroy can only be effective with proper air support. The minute they lose their air cover, they tend to go down pretty fast.
  • Another possible theory; since Stellar seems be emotionally fragile and unstable, her childlike behavior might be caused by psychological regression, where the human mind reverts into a child-like pattern of behavior as a defense mechanism. After all, their training would have been inherently traumatizing, and all of the Extendeds are psychologically warped one way or another. Stellar just copes by acting like a young girl so she doesn't need to face the sad realities of her life.
• Why the hell does Lord Djbril wear lipstick? If I want to send fear into my opponents I am not going to do it with makeup that looks fit for a whore.
  • Because he thinks it makes him look more "refined". When did he ever try to send fear into his opponents? Up until about halfway through the series he doesn't suspect that others (specifically Durandal) know he's pulling the Atlantic Federation's strings. Later on he fires the Requiem with the specific purpose of wiping out the P.L.A.N.Ts, not to send fear into them.

• Akatsuki. It's a suit made at about the same time as Freedom and Justice, but without the N-Jammer Canceler that made them so powerful. And yet, it managed to keep up with bleeding edge suits in terms of maneuverability, managed to have Super DRAGOONs, and magic armor that absorbed and then shot back beam weapons.
  • The N-Jammer Canceler didn't make Freedom and Justice more powerful, it just let them be nuclear powered, and thus be able to operate indefinitely.
  • ... which makes it stronger, as they can use Phase Shift and use their weapons more freely. Additionally, infinite power = more energy for thrusters = superior agility. And still, there's no reason that the Akatsuki should be that damn strong... technology has been advancing amazingly fast the past few years, to the point that a Super Prototype from the beginning of SEED cannot keep up with a grunt suit from the end of the same series. Yet Akatsuki isn't just as strong as a suit from its time should be... it's strong for a suit from the period it gets used. Which makes no sense.
    • The Strike and Buster (and even the Strike Rouge, which was built completely out of SPARE PARTS) were still incredibly effective at the end of SEED. The only time the Strike struggled was against Rau Le Creuset.
    • Given that Yzak and Dearka both used MP suits at the beginning of Destiny it's safe to say that the first gen Gundams are obsolete by the time of Destiny, though their effectiveness during the end of SEED is debatable.
  • There are several reasons why the Akatsuki was so effective. The first part is its mirror coating, which is what allows it to reflect beam weapons. If you consider the path of technical developments that occurred in the intervening years, one of the most obvious trends is the shift to an overwhelming reliance on beam weapons by both major factions in the conflict. In the previous war, the Akatsuki's effectiveness would have been somewhat iffy because its mirror coating means that it can't use Phase Shift armor and there are still a number of mobile suits and the like that rely on mass-based weapons as their primary form of attack. But fast-forward two years and now the Akatsuki is by default, basically immune to 90% of the weapons that would be employed by any potential opponents. Furthermore, because it doesn't us PS armor, the Akatsuki is free to use that power for other functions, like its DRAGOON system. Another thing to note is that the Akatsuki is likely based off of the Strike, and so uses interchangeable equipment modules. It's not out of the question that even though the mobile suit itself was finished earlier in the series that some of its striker pack upgrades, namely the DRAGOON based one, could have been developed later down the line. And finally, in all of its uses after its initial appearance, the Akatsuki is piloted by none other than Mwu La Flaga, who is just that badass.
    • How the hell does the Akatsuki even survive the Tannhauser blast? A positron cannon is not a beam weapon, it's essentially an anti-matter weapon. Putting some paint on your mobile suit and calling it a 'mirror' does not just just mean you reflect whatever. Oh wait, forgive me, I forgot this was the series in which Kira Yamato survives his own mobile suit going nuclear. Same with Athrun getting his stolen mobile suit impaled. No Mook ever gets that lucky.
• Do we know that the Akatsuki isn't nuclear powered? Orb would have had access the plans for an N-Jammer canceller considering their time with the Freedom and Justice. In referring to the Akatsuki surviving a Tannhauser, if its from the occasion I think you're referienceing, the Tannhauser didn't actually touch the Akatsuki. The Akatsuki's DRAGOON system is specially designed to create an energy shield. You can check out MAHQ if you want to see the specs.
  • Was the Akatsuki actually built two years ago, or just commisioned? Because if it was comissioned, then they would have had plenty of time to work on the suit, and implement any new technologies that came along.

• Why didn't Durandal just nuke Orb at the start instead of sending assassins to kill Lacus Clyne. He could easily blame it on the Earth Federation, its not like they're smart enough to defend themselves.
  • Because he didn't send any assassins. It's just assumed he did because they were ZAFT suits. However, as anything larger than a toaster is prone to theft in the Cosmic Era, this isn't really what I'd call damning evidence.
    • Because it's a lot easier to say it was a group of radicals if just assassins are used. A nuke, on the other hand, would invite way too much scrutiny and questions. As for whether he ordered the hit, the fact that he has an impostor ready to go (and has had her for months) seems to show that he was involved.
    • Lacus had been out of his control for months, and still had considerable moral implications. It's really not surprising he had a lookalike for her.
    • I'm still amazed people still think anyone but Durandal could pull off the attempt. Stealing suits that aren't even in full production yet? Not if you're not a named character. Besides, how would they get the info on where she was, and why would they risk a suicide mission on a washed-up pop singer? Look at Sato: did he care where Lacus was? No! He was too busy attempting Break the World. And note Durandal debuting Meer what, minutes after the assassination attempt?
    • I'm more amazed that people somehow assume it was Dullindal. We've seen three top-secret-one-of-a-kind-Gundams stolen right out from under ZAFT's nose in the middle of their most secure base. Who's to say that a handful of regular mobile suits stationed on low-security bases were actually safe in comparison? Andy's proof that they were Coordinators comes from circumstantial evidence, not to mention their skills are nothing remotely close to either Black-Ops or Wetworks teams - and we've already seen at least two major groups who would benefit from the death of the 'princess of peace' by episode 5 alone. Furthermore, Meer's been around for a good, long while - and Dullindal says he'd rather be working with the original than borrowing on her strength with a duplicate. While Dullindal isn't exactly innocent in this, there wouldn't be enough evidence to bring him into a court of law!
      • I'm still amazed Durandal supporters seem to think he's incapable of lying and every single word of his the honest truth. Of course he'd tell Athrun he wanted to work with the original. Saying "well I'd like the original but I know she'd never support me so I had a fake prepared that would" isn't making him sound very innocent. On other hand in his private thoughts (where he obviously wouldn't lie to himself) all we hear from him about Lacus is how troublesome she is to his plans. Yeah that's not enough to convict him in the court of law but there wasn't enough to convict Sirrocco or Haman either. One of the perks of being a Manipulative Bastard is that stringing people along isn't really a crime and others do the illegal stuff for you.
      • Well, he wouldn't be much of a Chessmaster if there was.
      • On top of that, Durandal's the only person with the opportunity. As the person further up stated, yeah there are other groups that would like Lacus dead (Blue Cosmos immediately springs to mind) but they have no idea where she is. If Djibril wanted to kill Lacus he'd have been sending assassins after Meer, who he and everyone else assumed was the real thing. Believing that he, or the morons from the Break the World incident actually uncovered Durandal's fake out, located the real Lacus, and then tried to kill her is an overestimation of their competence. Durandal's the only one who has motive, opportunity, and the requisite level of ability to pull something like that off.
        • Also, if Blue Cosmos or any other anti-ZAFT group found the real Lacus, why the hell would they kill her? Her existance proves that Meer is a fake, and that Durandal is a liar. It would benefit them far more to kidnap her and reveal her to the public, than to try and kill her in secret. Hell, Djibril himself was about to try and get Lacus on his side when she revealed herself in Orb.
    • On those defending Durandal: He's the only one with a real motive. He had a fake Lacus doing his biddings. Sudden return of real Lacus would have been a real disadvantage. Okay, there IS no real proof, but there never was any indication of any other group staging the incident. On the nuke topic... ZAFT isn't that evil. Mass destruction is avoided after the incidents of SEED.
    • There are a number of such mysteries in Gundam Seed Destiny which are never totally explained. But personally, I thought it was pretty obvious that Durandal sent the team to take out Lacus. He had a fake Lacus raring to go and definitely wants her dead later. If anything, I'd say that it's more likely that Durandal had the terrorist dropping of Junius 7 set up as part of his plan rather than saying that he wasn't actually the one to send soldiers after Lacus in spite of how obvious it seemed that he was. Durandal talked nice, but he sure didn't act it when it came to enacting his plans.
      • The Special Edition (Which supposedly tried to clarify things) show Durandal making plans for Shinn to throw down with Kira almost immediately after Kira defeats the assassin squad (the fight is at the end of part 1 and Durandal thinking to himself is one of the first scenes in part 2) long before Kira actually starts messing with Zaft. Why would he be planning for this with no cause before hand? For that matter he shouldn't even know Kira had Freedom back unless he sent or was at least somewhat involved with that squad. It had to be Durandal.

• Which reminds me, how could everyone fall for that Meer Campbell fraud? She couldn't imitate Lacus well if her life was riding on that!
  • Because a pop star getting a boob job and changing her image is something that happens all the time in real life without the pop star being replaced by another person.
  • Because she was 16 in GS and 18 in GSD. I don't think it would be that strange if she naturally "grow up" around that age.
  • Because every. single. unnamed person. in the Cosmic Era is terminally stupid.
  • Because of this: http://shinnanigans.livejournal.com/3290.html
  • The real question is how a pop star like Lacus could have so much political clout and reputation in the first place.
    • Because her dad was as important as he was. Plus, after the events of the previous series and the role she played there, Lacus could be a truck driver and people would still listen.
  • I recall Those Two Guys on the Minerva actually talking about how different "Lacus" was early on, but they came to the conclusion that they liked her better that way and didn't put any further thought into it. Whether this goes for the rest of humanity, we can only guess.
    • Meyrin also comments to Athrun about how different "Lacus' is.
• As far a bust size difference is concerned I heard that the explanation to the public was her genes were coordinated to have her 'blossom' at that age.

• Exactly, how was the Destiny Plan supposed to bring everlasting peace?
  • By ushering in the Brave New World. It's in the manga.

• Why was Cagalli/Athrun shot down the way it was, because it was an "unequal pairing"? Why couldn't it be something more sensible, like "being the son of a genocidal madman who would have torched their homeland from orbit".
  • Or they just grew apart because they have different lives and obligations?
    • You mean like what actually happened in the series. The breakup has absolutely nothing to do with an "unequal pairing". They were both very recently on the rebound in Seed and as Destiny and real life show, rebound relationships often don't work out. From their first appearance in Destiny, Athrun and Cagalli aren't communicating and are making decisions as individuals, not a couple. Athrun is obviously dissatisfied with his role in Orb, which lots of people, including even Shinn, notice and comment on, while Cagalli says and does nothing about it. Cagalli repeatedly chooses Orb over Athrun even before she breaks the engagement and joins the Earth Alliance. Athrun chooses to somewhere that people listen to him and give him the chance to protect people from genocidal maniacs.
  • Just because they used to love each other, and just because they were cute/popular couple in the eyes of their fans, it doesn't mean that their love will last ever after. After all, Cagalli disappoints Athrun by agreeing to marry Yuna behind his back. Athrun disappoints Cagalli by giving her cold treatment when he got back to Archangel (with Meyrin on his side no less). Maybe the flame simply died.
    • It was a marriage arranged by her father long before she ever met Athrun, let alone fell in love with him, and considering what happened to her dad (and the fact without Yuna and his dad she stands alone in the Orb government) she probably felt she HAD to do it. And it was made clear right before Athrun took off for the PLANTs that he understood, accepted it at politically necessary, and STILL LOVED HER. Or did that ring mean jack all? Apparently it did to Fukuda, considering Cagalli just suddenly stopped wearing it when Athrun and Meyrin join the group, which is what ticked Athrun off in the first place.
      • Actually, Athrun was shocked that Cagalli had dumped him to marry Yuna. At their next meeting, Athrun was angry with Cagalli and said there were somethings even he couldn't forgive. Cagalli finally stopped wearing the ring when she finally admitted to herself that she had broken the engagement long before then.
  • We may invent the in-story justifications for their breakup till the Second Coming, but ultimately there would be very little substance in them. Because main reason for it was, as I've heard, that Morosawa had a serious falling-out with Cagalli's seiyuu, Naomi Shindou. Breaking them up (and AsuCaga was, and still is, an extremely popular pairing around the world, not just in some markets) was basically her Take That to Shindou.

• So, does the Extendeds' brainwashing/memory suppression gradually wear off if not routinely applied? Since I found it a bit odd that Stellar went from panicking and screaming that she didn't know Shinn to docile, vulnerable, and recognizing him within the course of about two or three scenes without any real sort of trigger. Or do we just chalk it up to good ol' Power of Love and leave it at that?
  • It seems so, since they require regular 'maintenance' inside those glowing capsules that constantly 'smooth them over' to ensure control (and keep them alive). This is some pretty heavy mental tinkering, after all, which seems to still be in experimental stages, so it might not yet be perfect.

• So Durandal reveals his Destiny Plan, essentially saying that he'll now dictate everyone's lives via their genetics. The Earth governments reject the plan, but what about ZAFT and the PLANTs? Why was there was not a single note of complaint from anyone watching their democratically elected leader make himself a dictator? In Gundam SEED they at least showed that the radical fringe was in power and people were having doubts even as they followed orders. But in this the Coordinator reaction was either complete silence or loyal obedience, even though the plan was a total surprise to everyone. Durandal is a charismatic man, but that's just breaking the suspension of disbelief in half.
  • After being through two world wars in as many years people are probably willing to listen to anyone who claims he has a plan to bring peace, especially when he/she says it with the kind of conviction that Durandal has. And not everyone did buy into it. Yzak and Dearka jumped ship again, and a huge chunk of the ZAFT fleet willingly went with them.
    • Plus Durandal had been systematically trying to eliminate any coordinators he thought might oppose the Destiny Plan long before he announced it - look at Operation Angel Down, the attempted killing of Athrun and Meyrin, and the several attempts at assassinating Lacus.
  • As for Earth's nations, only Orb and Scandanavia rejected the Plan. Most of the governments were destroyed during the war and Logos chase, so they have to rely on Durandal for support.
  • Along with the two countries mentioned above, the Atlantic Federation also was against it. It took Requiem killing their leaders to convince them otherwise...

• Why did Rey do such a ideological 180 in the final episode? He has loyally served Durandal all his life, obviously cared about him very much (he flung himself into Durandal's arms in an early episode), and is so haunted by his inevitable fate he passionately supports the Destiny Plan. And yet a few choice words from Kira move him so much he shoots his own father figure? Even though the Word of God says Kira 'strayed from the path of justice' and is therefore wrong? So Rey, essentially, defies all of his previous loyalties and motivations to follow someone canon sees as misguided and villainous? How the heck does that make any sense?
  • Maybe Lacus taught Kira those formidable mindrape skills that made a pop star the most influential person in ZAFT's politics...
  • It looked to this troper that Kira's words managed to snap Rey out of his Cloning Blues and convinced him that he wasn't bound by fate since was his own person who could decide his own destiny, which runs contrary to Durandal's Destiny Plan, which would rob people of that. Still, it was very poorly executed on the series' part, and didn't quite warrant a bullet.
  • I think that a lot of Rey's turn around has to do with his regarding himself as the new, improved Le Creuset. He wants to live a better version of Rau's life, and part of that (at least from his perspective) seems to entail defeating Kira, who killed his older brother figure. They fight, and what ends up happening? He gets his rear-end kicked, but Kira, who he regards as an abomination, doesn't finish the job. Instead he tells him that his need to live down what Rau tried to do isn't necessary, and that he can be his own person, then leaves. Rey's just had two of the central tennents of his life--that the Ultimate Coordinator is inherently bad, and that he has to make up for Rau's mistakes--questioned for quite possibly the first time. By the time he reaches the Durandal's room, he's probably questioned his own motivations more than a few times. And when he gets there, what does he overhear? Kira giving more or less the same speech to Durandal, proving that it wasn't just BS to mess with Rey's head. We'll never know what went through Rey's head after that, but for the first time someone's given him some hope. And then Durandal tries to shoot that person. Rey's military training kicks in, and he reacts instinctively, blowing Durandal away. Judging from his freakout afterwards, he almost instantly regrets it. Does that make sense to anyone else?
    • It does make a lot of sense. The problem is that this all happened over the course of one episode. If this had happened over a series of multiple episodes, showing that doubt was slowly gnawing at Rei until he finally snapped, it could have been brilliant. Instead we get an epic Motivation Whiplash.

• Word of God maintains that Kira and friends were indeed the villains - leaving aside the ethical issues of Durandal's plan (and the Internet Backdraft), the series ends with Kira winning and being, at least in-series, endorsed as right all along. So does that make Destiny an epic Downer Ending, or...?
  • I recall an interview around the time the series started saying that this was a series in which 'the good guys would lose.
  • I wouldn't really call it a Downer Ending, since Final Plus shows that the world was unified, peace was finally achieved, and Kira and Shinn promised to work together in maintaining it. It's just that Kira and his group came across as villainous since they dealt with the problems in the most dickish way possible. I wouldn't say they were outright villains, just heavily misguided by their emotions and stubborn.
    • Word of God does not say that Kira and company were the villains of the piece. That's merely some Durandal fans interpretation of a rough translation of an interview from "Animaze" magazine. Considering they can't even get the magazine name right, I'm rather doubtful of the accuracy of the claims.
      • As for Kira and co being dickish about their methods: what was the other option? The Destiny plan was evil. They couldn't talk Shinn, Rey and Durandal down, so they beat them down. Same method used by every Gundam protagonist since Amuro.

• The Impulse. ZAFT specifically built the Minerva for the Impulse, but only ever built one Impulse unit. Then, when the next generation of mobile suits came around, they didn't incorporate the modular design into any prototypes or mass production models. The more I think about it, the more that the Impulse's combining system seemed like just a gimmick, since it was only ever really significant in one battle (Impulse vs Freedom) and the design was otherwise abandoned by ZAFT. Bar the aforementioned Impulse vs Freedom battle, the Impulse could have just been a single unit with a slightly more advanced system of changing packs and nothing would have changed.
  • Considering how Crazy Prepared Durandal was initially it might not be too out there for the Impulse's combining gimmick solely to have been created for the ulterior motive of being able to go against Freedom. Durandal obviously knew about Kira, was expecting his interference at some point seemed to be raising Shinn specifically to be Zaft's counterpart version of Kira. As special edition 2 showed he was long expecting Shinn and Kira to face off so it wouldn't be that farfetched for Durandal to make sure his sides main Ace's machine had a design feature to counter the specific combat style of the enemy's. Note that immediately after Kira is supposedly killed Durandal gives Shinn a new machine more suited to enforcing and overpowering regular machines.
  • Also, on that subject, why weren't Rey and Luna given Impulses? The Minerva had a catapult specifically for launching the Impulse, and as the battle against the Freedom proved they had a large supply of Leg and Chest Flyers and assorted packs, so why didn't they jsut stock up on extra Core Splendors and give them to Rey and Luna instead of their crappy non-flying ZAK Us?
  • More to the point, when it was launching, WHY DO THE ENEMIES NEVER TRY TO SHOOT IT DOWN? Seriously. It's completely open!
    • The same reason Talking Is a Free Action and monsters never attack magical girls when they transform ^[1]. Because the plot demands it.
    • Core Block Systems, as they're called in UC, have been described as horrifically expensive and wasteful glorified ejection systems. The Impulse was probably never designed for mass-production, just an experimental unit due to the success of the Striker Pack during the last war. The EA adopted it wholesale, with most of the Dagger line and the Windam using it as well. The stock footage launching is just plain stupid, however.
      • The Impulse is an experimental mobile suit, same with the Chaos, Gaia, Abyss, Saviour, Destiny, and Legend. Ever wondered what the "X" in their designations means?
  • I used to think that this was weird too, until I thought about it in context, then it became Fridge Brilliance. The Impulse was originally designed the way it was because of the provisions in the Treaty of Junius 7, which was drawn up at the end of the first Bloody Valentine war. The provisions of the treaty impose several limitations on both ZAFT and the Earth Forces in terms of number of machines, outlawing N-Jammers, N-Jammer Cancelers and Mirage Colloid etc. The Impulse was designed to work around those limitations by creating mobile suits that could serve in several rolls and change between them mid-battle by equipping different silhouettes (supporting material also shows that the Chaos, Gaia and Abyss were also intended to be developed into additional silhouettes for the Impulse as well). This lets ZAFT get around the armament limitations in the treaty by having the Impulse, which can serve as several different kinds of mobile suits throughout a battle, but still claim that it's just one mobile suit, which allows them to get the most bang for their buck (or it would if development had continued and the system perfected for mass production). However, since the purpose of a treaty is to prevent a war in the first place, once one starts, the provisions of the treaty go out the window, as the Earth Forces handily demonstrated when they tried to nuke the PLANTS in the first battle of the new war. This meant that there was no need to continue the development of the Impulse, which was simply a workaround for the treaty in the first place, so it was sidelined and ZAFT went back to developing and building more typical mobile suits, now that their numbers were no longer limited by the treaty.

This is an issue that has bugged me for the entire series. Forget all the other issues. For me, this one is the biggest It Just Bugs Me of all ItJustBugsMes. So here it is: Why did Shinn focus all his hate on Orb? And Cagali's family specifically? Let's not think about how some people wanted Orb to be sacks or any of that. The fact is that The Earth Alliance is far more responsible, or at least equally responsible for the death of his family, being the ones that invaded and all. Really, I get that he feels they didn't do enough to protect the city, but should't he have some grudge towards the EA as well? We all know Shinn does not hesitate to tear into someone he hates (the numerous times he ripped on Cagalli), so why just Orb?

• Rule of Drama. Without his irrational hatred of Orb (and the Athas specifically, and Kira on the side) to provide conflict, Shinn has literally nothing in terms of characterization except lots of and lots of rage. Really, in terms of responsibility for the death of Shinn's family, it goes 1) OMNI, for invading, 2) his sister, for worrying about her goddamn cell phone while they're fleeing through the middle of a battlefield, 3) ZAFT, for not helping Orb defend itself against OMNI (Orb has a significant Coordinator population -- would it be too much to expect a little solidarity?), 4) Orb/Kira, for not being awesome enough to defeat OMNI. It seems like what they were going for was Shinn believing that Orb's aggressive neutrality was naive and unsustainable as foreign policy (given how much they tend to get their asses kicked, he might even have a decent argument), but what it came out as was "YOU'RE STUPID AND I HATE YOU!". Really, the biggest annoyance about the whole thing is that Shinn never has anything to say about what Orb should have done instead. His entire argument is "YOU SUCK AND I HATE YOU FOR GETTING ATTACKED!" Would he preferred that Orb surrendered? I can't imagine his Coordinator family being treated particularly well under OMNI occupation...
  • It's a little more complex than that. If you take into account some of his lines earlier in the series, it makes more sense. He calls the Athha's hypocrites, and later yells about how he and his family believed in Orb and its ideals, and what they got for it was being killed. Now keep in mind that in the previous war Orb helped the EA create the GAT-X units, then later allowed the Archangel into their territory and helped them in exchange for the natural OS, while telling ZAFT to piss off. Both those incidents broke Orb's third ideal "We will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations" in order to feel better about their second ideal "We will not allow another nation to attack us", as well as breaking their policy of neutrality. Essentially, he feels betrayed because he and his family believed in the ideals of Orb, yet Orb couldn't follow its own ideals. That's why he says that he'll never believe their (Athha and Orb's) lies again, because they promised to stay out of the conflict, they didn't, and his family wound up paying the price. He hates Orb more than the EA for that reason, the EA didn't betray his trust the way Orb did.
    • Except that neutral nations are allowed and expected to deal with both sides of the conflict they're neutral in. That's what neutrality means. Orb helping OMNI develop the GAT-X series (though IIRC it was an Orb-based defense contractor rather than the Orb government in and of itself) is not a violation of neutrality. Neither is allowing the Archangel into Orb territory. Besides, why the hell would being nice to OMNI (as in both those cases) make it Orb's fault that OMNI attacked them? Shinn's rage is horribly misplaced.
      • That is breaking neutrality. If we assume that the same rules regarding neutrality that exist today are the ones imposed in the Cosmic Era, giving the Archangel sanctuary is violating neutrality. In the event that a belligerent nations troops reach neutral territory, the neutral nation is required to intern them, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It is one of their responsibilities as a neutral nation as defined by the Hague Convention of 1907. A neutral nation is not allowed to hide one sides troops and give them aid, nor are belligerent armies men and material allowed to be transported across neutral territory. Granted, naval vessels of nations involved in the conflict can use neutral ports for 24 hours, however the Archangel was not even attempting to make port, and the neutral nation is not allowed to hide the fact that said warship is in port. Now, as for how it's Orb's fault that they got attacked, it's very simple. Upon committing a non-neutral act, the neutral (well, formerly neutral) nation forfeits all protections afforded to them as a neutral nation. Essentially, by committing a non-neutral act, Uzumi put a giant target on his nation. Then there's his actions afterwards, where he refuses to let the EA use Orb's Mass Driver (which was all they originally wanted before his constant refusals irritated them and they handed down the list of unreasonable demands), and he turns down an offer of alliance from ZAFT, either of which could have saved his country had he not suddenly decided to be neutral again. Apparently for Uzumi, breaking neutrality to save his daughter was okay, but breaking neutrality to save his nation from the situation his original breach of neutrality caused wasn't okay. Shinn's rage isn't misplaced, Orb (well, technically Uzumi) broke their neutrality, created a horrible situation, and then suddenly decided to cling to his ideals when the situation went to hell in the aftermath of his original screwup. Combine that with Orb's actions in Destiny and small wonder he hates them.
        • I think you're confusing different kinds of neutrality. A nation neutral in a conflict between two other nations is a Truce Zone; everyone's allowed in as long as they play nice while they're there. What you're describing is The Neutral Zone or a demilitarized zone: a contested territory where no one is allowed to go, in order to prevent a conflict from breaking out. Orb never wavered from the first type of neutrality until Yuna & Co in Destiny, and they never even pretended to the second type. Shinn's anger at Orb is a sign of his immaturity -- he ignores the reality of the difficult situation they were in and hates them for failing to be perfect, because that's easier than admitting that the world is a harsh place and bad things happen to good people sometimes.
          • There is no differentiation between different types of Neutrality in International Law. If we assume that the same rules apply in the Cosmic Era that apply now, Uzumi broke: Chapter 1 Article 2: "Belligerents are forbidden to move troops or convoys of either munitions of war or supplies across the territory of a neutral power." This crosses over with Chapter 1 Article 5: "A neutral power must not allow any of the acts referred to in 2 to 4 to occur on its territory." He also busted Chapter 2 Article 11: "A neutral power which receives on its territory troops belonging to the belligerent armies SHALL intern them, as far as possible, at a distance from the theatre of war." I emphasized shall to highlight that this is not optional, they are required to intern belligerent troops, not give them aid and let them go like Uzumi did. So, Uzumi broke two of his responsibilities as a neutral nation. "Bad things happen to good people" my foot, Uzumi deliberately broke his neutrality, knowing damn well what the consequences would be. He later tries to stick to the neutrality that he had already broken, passing up two good opportunities to possibly save his country, one by just letting the EA use the mass driver instead of constantly refusing and pissing them off, the other turning down ZAF Ts offer of alliance. Shinn being angry because Uzumi was a piss-poor leader isn't being immature, it's putting the blame right where it belongs, on the back of said piss-poor leader.
            • You're trying to apply technical definitions from real-life treaties to a fictional universe that takes place an unknown-but-large amount of time in the future. I hope I don't have to explain why that's silly. Within the context of the story, Orb remained genuinely neutral. The fact that they might not have fulfilled the real-world legal requirements for it is irrelevant -- I doubt that the writers knew the legalities of it when they wrote the plot, and it's clear that it's supposed to be the mean, nasty OMNI wrongfully persecuting the righteous and principled Orb. Besides, Shinn never actually takes the stance you're attributing to him that I recall -- he just sort of yells at Orb, blaming them for his family's death without ever explaining why he thinks it's their fault. I see that as being indicitive of the fact that he doesn't really have a reason -- he just blames Orb because it's most convenient for him.
              • Do we ever see any other treaty ever being invoked? It's clear that there are laws regulating neutrality in the Cosmic Era, and unless you can come up with some other treaty that the Cosmic Era abides by, we're forced to assume that the same laws that govern neutrality today are the ones in place in the Cosmic Era-sort of like how we accept the fact that there are laws regarding murder, theft and a whole host of other things that are never explicitly shown in the animation. Unless you'd like the claim that because they're not shown they obviously don't exist or have been changed in the "unknown but large amount of time in the future". Within the context of the story, Orb still gives aid to one side while refusing to allow the other side to even dock, all while lying to said other side about the fact that they're harboring and giving aid to aforementioned one side. Orb is not being neutral no matter how finely you want to split the hairs. Shinn outright states that "we believed in the nation, and in your SO-CALLED ideals, and in the end, they were killed at Onogoro". That pretty much spells out that he feels that the Athha's didn't follow their own ideals, and that his family got killed because of that breach of neutrality.
                • No, that spells out that Shinn thinks that. Given that it's Shinn, who's probably the single least objective person in the CE universe on that particular subject, I feel no need to take his word for it. Laws about theft and murder are simple and widely understood; laws about conduct of warfare are neither. The whole point of Orb is that they stuck by their principles; the writers, at least, obviously believe that Orb didn't violate their own neutrality, otherwise nothing about Orb's characterization in the second half of Seed and the first half of Destiny makes sense. Instead of trying to insist that Orb are actually the bad guys based on applying real-world laws to a fictional universe, thereby throwing out basically everything we're told about them, I find it much easier to accept things at face value as presented in the series: Orb was neutral, and OMNI invaded them anyway.
                  • I can swear that I wrote "he FEELS". Orb did not stick by their principles, unless you consider giving aid to one side of the war as following "we will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations". You don't even have to apply real-world laws, although I did do so, giving aid to one side while telling the other side to piss off is not neutral no matter how you want to slice it. "The writers obviously believe that Orb didn't violate their neutrality" give me a break. You are ignoring what actually happened onscreen, i.e. Orb breaking neutrality by giving aid to one side and not the other, then lying to said other side about giving the first side aid, so you can argue a subjective viewpoint that "they didn't betray their neutrality because otherwise their characterization doesn't make sense". I'm not saying that Orb was necessarily bad, however they were not innocent little victims, and they definitely had a hand in bringing their eventual fate upon themselves. What is at face value is what actually happened onscreen, which is Orb breaking neutrality. Instead of going on about what the writers feel or characterization or anything else, why don't you answer me a simple question. Tell me how giving aid to the EA and not to ZAFT, while bold-faced lying to ZAFT about giving aid to the EA, is in fact not violating neutrality. And no "it's in the future, we don't know" or "the writers obviously feel", explain, in an objective manner, how that is not violating neutrality, and if your explanation stands up to analysis, I will concede the argument about Orb's neutrality.
  • Congrats. You just made something from Destiny make sense. Pat yourself on the back for a job well done. Seriously :). If it's an issue of feeling betrayed, then I can get it. Even if the Earth Forces are responsible for the attack, there would have been no attack if Orb and the Athha's had not betrayed their ideals (although neither Cagali nor her father knew about the Gundams until it was too late, but Shinn doesn't know that, and likely would not believe it anyway). It even explains why he was so anxious to attack them during the search for Djbril. Once again Orb betrayed their so-called non-interference ideals, this time to protect a Complete Monster. As far as he's concerned, they deserve everything they get. Of course, in his Athha hate, he probably didn't consider how many new Shinn Asuka's he created in the process. Plus, it really was his families own fault for still being so close to the battlefied, when they were supposed to have been evacuated beforehand.
    • There are many factors that may come into play about orderly evacuation given time constraint and resources constraint. For example, some people may have been given priorities (elderly, the sick, small children, pregnant women, etc may be ordered to go to nearby shelters, while healthier people can travel further and thus ordered to evacuate by ships), distance may decide priorities (people with homes closer to estimated combat zones may need to evacuate first, people with homes far away from combat zones are told to stay in their house, etc). Another possibility, Shinn's parents may work for the government, so they evacuate at the very last after helping all other citizens evacuate or maybe they just unlucky at the lottery so they were chosen to evacuate last. In short, it's most likely NOT their fault that they evacuate so late. To me, it's Orb's fault that Shinn and his family have to walk through combat zones just to get to their ships. Orb should have planned/secured better routes for evacuation.
  • Rewatching the compilation movies for Seed, it occurs to me that Orb was going to be attacked no matter what from the moment the Panama mass driver fell. The earth Federation forces needed a mass driver in order to be able to send their forces into space. Once Panama's was destroyed by Zaft, only the ones in Orb and Africa were left. Zaft controlled the Africa one. If Orb capitulated then Zaft would have had to attack them, and they would have lost their nutrality. And it seems that once a nation is part of the Federation, they don't let them leave easy. Just look at what happened to the European Union in Destiny when the decided they didn't want to keep fighting Zaft. And the Astray Manga's show that something similer happened with South America. That's why Cagalli's father wanted to be able to develop their own mobile suits and have their own military power. Basicly Orb gets stuck bieng in the middle of two Superpowers that are run by nutjobs.
• Why does ORB seem to hold the idiot ball? Early they state that they don't want to see the nation burn again and let the EA pressure them into an uneasy alliance despite that the obvious outcome is ether A) getting into a war with Zaft, (Which happens later.) Or B) EA betrays them, proceeds to 'burn' the nation again... It seems like the best solution should have been to join forces with Zaft and launch a preemptive strike on the EA... Judging from most of the conversations Cagali has trying to talk them out of it plus their history with them, they seem perfectly aware of the EA being bastards....
  • The Orb Union had three choices, Join the Earth Alliance and be destroyed by ZAFT, Join ZAFT and be destroyed by the Earth Alliance, or stay neutral and get destroyed by the Earth Alliance since they would think that if Orb did not join them against the enemies of humanity then they are allied with the enemies a.k.a. the PLANTs. Orb's destiny when "Break The World" happened was destruction, so they joined the Earth Alliance to help with the disaster recovery and to prevent Orb from burning for as long as possible. They were screwed from the get-go so they tried to prevent it.

• Why did ORB repair Kira's freedom gundam, but not rebuild Athrun's Justice gundam? Freedom gundam's repairs seemed somewhat secretive and it shares most of it's design with Justice, the main difference being weapons and the backpack, which don't look like they'd be hard to duplicate. I imagine things would have went quite differently if Athrun had his Justice gundam at Armory one, or in his fight against Kira, maybe even his escape from Shin and Ray? (Savior maybe newer, but Justice gundam was still stronger considering it was nuclear powered and better armed.)
  • ... Because the Justice self-destructed inside GENESIS.
    • Freedom took some heavy damage and they repaired it, so they probably could have rebuilt the Justice.
    • There's a different between heavy damage and self-destruction. I mean, look at the Strike and Aegis. Aegis self-destructed, Strike was just damaged. Which one was rebuilt?

• And another thing, why doesn't Durandal make use of his ace pilots from the previous war such as Dearka and Yzak? Sure their gundams were outdated, but he could have at least given them suits better then a couple of zakus. (Yes, Yzak upgrades to a gouf later, but by that point the goufs were being mass produced. He didn't have to give them nuclear gundams, but at least something around the Impulse or Saviors level would have been reasonable.) Or hell, instead of trying to KILL Athrun and giving him a damn good reason to leave Zaft and go AWOL, why not just transfer the two of them to the Minivera to try and comfort him into staying? They could have helped give Athrun a morale boost to keep him with Zaft AND helped train Shin/Ray/Luna to battle Kira, since they both have experience at fighting him. At times it actually comes off as though Durandal was TRYING to get Athrun to desert, like when he told Athrun he was being upgraded to Legend Gundam, which is obviously based on providence. It's pretty obvious he'd always intended to give it to Ray, given the whole Ray being a clone deal...
  • The Minerva is Durandal's ace in the hole. He's already got one former traitor, Athrun, on board. He doesn't need to add two more. Secondly, Athrun is the easiest of the three to manipulate, by playing on his daddy issues and desire for peace. Yzak and Dearka don't have gaping holes like that in their defences. They've tried to fix their lives, Athrun really hasn't. Finally, they don't bring the celebrity that Athrun does to the cause. Having Athrun around gives him both a war hero, and testimony that Meer is the "real" Lacus. Yzak and Dearka don't bring that to the table (can you imagine Yzak going along with a deception like that?), and in Yzak's case, he's probably more valuable where he is, as a commander. Make him a frontline soldier again, where he's not responsible for lots of other people's lives, and he might start wondering if he's on the right side again.
    • This Troper firmly believes Yzak and Dearka were originally meant to be the full-time (as opposed to testing) pilots of one of the three stolen Gundams. Dearka would probably get the Abyss, and Yzak the Chaos.
    • Also look at what happened in the final battle. The two defect back to Kira and Lacus side. I may be wrong, but I think the two were already members of Terminal. As stated above Durandal doesn't have the same way to manipulate Athrun. Also Durandal was hoping that Athrun could lead him to Lacus and Kira. He can take the risk of giving a powerful Gundam to Athrun, but it's not worth it to do so for Yzak and Dearka. Maybe the better question is why didn't Terminal make some new suits for them?

• Now that we know that most of the interviews are just results of misconceptions by the Fandom, there is still some things about Mitsuo Fukuda's messages on Twitter I've heard recently. Like saying that Morosawa's cancer is actually a depression and that he didn't like that Kenichi Suzumura and Maaya Sakamoto (who respectly voiced Shinn and Lunamaria) are married. Is that true or it's the Hate Dumb striking again?
  • Here's the source of Fukuda's original Twitter post. I can't read Japanese, so take it for what you will. As for Morosawa's cancer, I've been skeptical of this (if she was ill, shouldn't she be recovered at this point?), and I believed that Morosawa is going through a Hideaki Anno/Tomino (circa Victory Gundam)-esque severe depression phase.
  • Thanks for this. And, as for the tweeter post, I thing the actual reaction is surprise. As the post says here (as translated) "I always knew Maaya has her eyes for someone. But I never thought that it would be with Suzumura. Looks like I was mistaken there." The post also sees the two following tweeters but are not translated. So maybe it's something totally unrelated, or Fukuda dealing with a frustrated fan (it happens many times). So, my guess is more him being surprised than jealous or angry.

• Why in the world would ORB still have political arranged marriages? Royalties of many nations have the right to marry whoever they want today, much less how many centuries into the future GSD is. I understand that Cagalli might have been severely pressured into accepting the marriage instead of telling Yuna to shove it, but the marriage should have no legal right to exist since they were promised to each other as children. I can't accept the whole 'Save Cagalli from Yuna' subplot at the beginning because it makes just as much historical sense as Cagalli having a harem.
  • Orb's "leadership" is a conglomeration of the 5 families that make up Orb, that's why

1. ↑ Besides seeing them naked