How much electricity is there in the "power switch" button cables?

23

2

Because of a broken power button on the front of my computer I've had to take the cables connected to the button and create a sort of "hotwire" setup to start my computer. This is done by simply pressing the ground and power switch cables against each other, and having those cables loosly taped to the outside of my case.

Could these cables contain any dangerous amount of electricity, if a person or cat would accidentally touch them?

JazzMaster

Posted 2018-03-06T22:04:41.793

Reputation: 341

5Dangerous and electricity depends on a whole host of things. The voltages on those wires should be at most 12V which is classed as a "safe" low voltage. If you simply touch a 12V supply you should be fine. It would be difficult to kill yourself without really trying, but having them exposed and loose could cause them to short against the case, could cause other problems and potentially charge the case up with enough current that if you were earthed somewhere else it could give you a sharp electric shock. It might only "buzz" you, but could harm smaller creatures. Just replace the switch. – Mokubai – 2018-03-06T22:11:45.713

8If a simple "touch" starts the computer, those are not the main power cables, but rather the "on/off" button wires and run on 5V. A chance contact may initiate a computer shutdown, obviously. I'd go for a new switch. – LSerni – 2018-03-06T22:12:08.487

Thanks alot for the answers! (yes it's the "on/off" button wires I'm talking about). Simply getting a new switch button then. – JazzMaster – 2018-03-06T22:22:05.983

41There is no answer to any question beginning with "How much electricity is there in ...". ;-) – Mike Waters – 2018-03-06T23:36:55.767

@Mukubai I don't know how to "charge a case up with current". Besides, I doubt that the voltage to GND is in any way substantially higher than 12 V. – glglgl – 2018-03-07T10:33:37.713

Related: "How much voltage is “dangerous”?" at SE.ElectricalEngineering.

– Nat – 2018-03-07T13:41:53.337

1You should also be considering the risks to the machine from you - it's not obvious that the switch connectors have any protection against a discharge of static. – Toby Speight – 2018-03-07T13:57:45.820

A computer I worked on around 20 years ago had two black half-inch thick cables running from the power supply and were fused directly to the front of the case behind the power button. I don't know how much voltage/current they carried, but I sure didn't like the look of the cables or the fact that a user would be pushing their finger right into them to start the computer. – Dave Cousineau – 2018-03-07T18:02:00.583

@DaveCousineau, yes, AT era machines had a big switch for the actual mains input. ATX motherboards have a low-voltage signal to the PSU to switch it on. The mains input is connected all the time, it has to be, for standby power to be available. – ilkkachu – 2018-03-07T21:01:56.590

Answers

51

The power switch provides an active low input to a logic gate within the power supply circuit.

enter image description here

This provides a low current logic low (ground) gate pulse to a BJT transistor biased to an isolated 5V source with the maximum current likely much less than 10mA. This portion of the circuit is also electrically isolated from the rest of the power supply circuit as can be seen in the diagram.

So to answer your question, No there are no dangerous voltages present.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_supply_unit_(computer)

Neelix

Posted 2018-03-06T22:04:41.793

Reputation: 637

power buttons can be either 3.3V or 5v, depending on the motherboard. Nothing harmful at all. – Keltari – 2018-03-06T22:37:41.467

38

On the really unlikely chance the person has a really old power AT supply, the switch will be the same voltage as what you have on the wall. Don't mess with those.

– Zoredache – 2018-03-07T01:15:16.247

8The power button is not connected directly to the PSU's PS_ON input. It goes through more logic on the motherboard (otherwise, the power switch would have to be held down to keep the power on). Having the wires dangling can be problematic, because it's possible that one of the wires is a voltage rail, and shorting it to the chassis could damage something on the motherboard. – Fake Name – 2018-03-07T02:13:30.747

@Zoredache similar power supply layouts are used in some much newer embedded systems. Fun fact: WinXP has the same "It's now safe to turn off your computer" screen as Win95 (the last such system I used was a Keithley 4200-SCS which was shipping with XP until shortly before XP went EOL, so although XP=old, it doesn't mean as old as you might think) – Chris H – 2018-03-07T10:04:47.413

5As @FakeName noted, the above answer is for switches on power supply units, not the switch on the front of the computer. +1 for interesting related information, though this answer doesn't seem to address the question as-asked. – Nat – 2018-03-07T13:46:28.607

1@FakeName I'd expect one pin to be 0v / Chassis / Ground, and the other to be pulled high to 3.3v / 5v, possibly by as small as ~1k - shorting to the chassis will likely achieve the same result as shorting the two wires. It's quite unlikely that the logic will be the other way up (pulled down, and fixed high). – Attie – 2018-03-07T16:27:50.893

1@ChrisH XP for Point of Sale systems (XP-POS for short, what's in a name) still has support until some time in 2019. So you may still encounter XP "in the wild". – Tonny – 2018-03-07T16:32:55.740

@Tonny -- and they're just the sort of thing that might not use ATX power control. – Chris H – 2018-03-07T16:45:38.270

@Attie - That's one way to do it, but the other is to have one wire be Vcc, and the other be pulled to gnd through a resistor. The switch then pulls the input high. The point is, there's no way to know which way it is without measuring, and either configuration is possible, even if active-low makes more sense intuitively (and may be more common). – Fake Name – 2018-03-07T20:54:58.393

1I would have upvoted this if only the red square was drawn free-handedly – Pacopaco – 2018-03-07T23:13:25.373

@Attie: Indeed, I measured with a multimeter on my Asus Z170 board, and it puts 3.36V across the power-switch pins while on. IDK about while in standby, but I'd assume the same. – Peter Cordes – 2018-03-08T06:07:06.700

It seems to me that the circuit diagram won't be much use to someone who asks "How much electricity is there in the power switch cables." – E. Douglas Jensen – 2018-03-08T20:35:06.363

Instead of hotwiring the switch with exposed wires, the OP should move the reset button jumper to the pwr jumper. They are both the same type of momentary switches and the reset button functionality is rarely used. – Yorik – 2020-02-27T17:39:05.160

15

The wires should only have low voltages on them (<= 12V), so they're safe to touch.

However, you should be careful, because if one of the wires is connected to the standby voltage rail, shorting it to the chassis could potentially damage the motherboard.

Fake Name

Posted 2018-03-06T22:04:41.793

Reputation: 2 134

2

The wires are safe to touch as they are powered from a 3.3V chip on the motherboard, and current is limited by a resistor.

However, if you carry an electrostatic charge, and you touch the wire, you will cause an electrostatic discharge (ESD). This is harmless for you, but it can zap the integrated circuits at the other end of the wire if they are not protected.

Normally, the manufacturer would have taken appropriate measures to ensure all input/outputs are protected against ESD, which begs the question: did they consider it worthy to protect this particular IO since it is normally not an externally accessible IO, but rather an internal wiring?

For example, looking at this motherboard schematic (pages 23-24), the power button signal is filtered by a 100nF cap which should be fine, however the RESET button signal goes straight to a IC pin without any protection.

While these chips include ESD protection diodes, such diodes are sized to protect against ESD events during fabrication, which are quite limited in charge as people manipulating chips are expected to take proper precautions. More robust protection diodes on every pin would use more silicon area and make the ICs more expensive, while providing no benefit unless the pin is actually accessible on the finished product and can be zapped by the user.

Therefore, your arrangement carries a risk of zapping the motherboard. It will probbaly be safe if the floor is tile and you are wearing cotton. However, if the floor is insulating, and you're wearing wool and sneakers, and the weather is dry, when touching metallic objects your fingertip can turn into a pretty impressive lightning gun!

peufeu

Posted 2018-03-06T22:04:41.793

Reputation: 351

That schematic is for the signaling between mobo and power supply, not for the front-panel switch. I'd assume it's ESD-protected on a PC because the mobo just has headers for the user to attach headers from the case wiring. So it's expected that semi-skilled human end-users will have their un-grounded hands near those pins. And BTW, a multimeter on my Asus Z170 board shows 3.36V across the front-panel power switch when the computer's on. I didn't check for source resistance or anything because I don't want to power down or standby my desktop. – Peter Cordes – 2018-03-08T06:12:31.247

1@PeterCordes Thanks for the clarification, I've looked at a mobo schematic and updated the post. ESD protection is actually a lot less than I thought. – peufeu – 2018-03-08T09:58:15.467

2

Other answers have explained that the voltage difference between these two wires is almost certainly very low, and has next to no chance of harming you when you touch both of them - the more likely consequence is that you might harm your computer through static discharge.

There is another consideration for the electrical safety of low-voltage circuits though, and that is the voltage difference between these wires and ground (earth).

Your PC's power supply should either have its ground (0V) rail connected to mains ground (earth), or it should have adequate isolation between the mains side and the low voltage side making it a Class II device, and in either case it should be safe to touch the low voltage side even if your body is also touching something grounded. However if there's anything wrong, for example:

  • the power supply is faulty
  • the power supply is cheaply made and substandard
  • the power supply is not correctly connected to mains (e.g. if it needs to be grounded but is connected via a 2-core cable or 2-pin plug with no ground)
  • there is a fault with your outlet or your house wiring

then the result could be a dangerous voltage, relative to ground, on the low-voltage side of the PC power supply. Just in case of one of these, it's safer not to touch the wires.

nekomatic

Posted 2018-03-06T22:04:41.793

Reputation: 185

1

The logic voltage on your motherboard is probably ~12V or less, as said in @FakeName's answer; I'd guess ~5V in most cases. But, why guess?

If you're going to be messing with electronics, seems like you should have a multimeter that could directly test it. It'd seem safer to actually check the voltage than just assume.

As for the danger of electricity, in general:

  • A power source can assert a voltage differential (e.g., 5V).

  • How much electricity comes from that voltage differential depends on the effective resistance between the terminals.

  • The lower the resistance, the more current will flow due to the same voltage differential.

  • Most power sources are limited in how much current they deliver.

So, how much voltage/current is dangerous?

To provide an arguably alarmist warning from @RussellMcMahon's answer (currently at +24 votes), while noting that this observation is extremely unlikely to apply to the current scenario:

FACT:

  • 12 VDC CAN kill and has killed people.

  • While 12V is almost always safe, worst case situations can and have lead to death.

  • Mechanism may be ventricular fibrillation BUT paralysis of the respiratory muscles occurs at about 20% of the current needed to introduce fibrillation.

  • See discussion and references at the end of this answer.

@Neelix's answer above speculated that the equivalent power switch on a PSU may be current-limited to <10mA. 10mA of direct current would presumably be perceivable-but-not-painful, according to the table from @OliGlaser's answer here:

Current safety table

So, it's probably not an immediate hazard upon human contact in most reasonably foreseeable cases, but it's still probably something to measure and be careful about anyway.

Nat

Posted 2018-03-06T22:04:41.793

Reputation: 283

6definitely alarmist and misleading in this context, omitting details on the conditions when such low voltage might be dangerous. if the mains powered computer and its user are submerged in salt water, the real danger does not come from the silly 12 or 5 volts... – szulat – 2018-03-07T15:15:35.470

2

The odds of 12V killing you are absurdly low. I'm sure that falling coconuts kill more people every year than 12V does.

– J... – 2018-03-07T15:35:57.263

1Guess I have to admit that I'm a tad phobic of telling people that something can't be dangerous. I mean, I have to agree with the majority opinion on this question that it's absurdly unlikely that this proposed power-switch hot-wiring presents a real danger, but I find myself unable to say that there's no danger. – Nat – 2018-03-07T15:43:41.233

1"while noting that this observation is extremely unlikely to apply to the current scenario:" without explanation of why, I'm not sure why you wrote it anyway. – None – 2018-03-07T17:05:14.243

@Mast The other answers had dismissed the risk of the low voltages being dangerous, though they didn't explain why or really qualify it. Since the upper-bound here is likely to be 12V (and far more likely 5V), I figured that pointing out that there's technically a risk from 12V, but that most folks plainly dismiss it, would give a reasonable description of the situation. Also added in the current table since current-limiting would also modify the risk. This was basically an attempt at: (1) providing a general description of the risk domain; (2) avoided saying that there was 0 risk. – Nat – 2018-03-07T17:15:47.637

Funny part is that I think that this answer probably does a good job at providing useful information on the situation while also alienating folks with my paranoia over refusing to call a seemingly-negligible risk a non-risk. – Nat – 2018-03-07T17:19:50.047

1My motherboard (an Asus Z170 board) puts 3.36V across the power-switch pins. I measured with a multimeter while it was on. As @Nat says, this is what you should expect; there's no reason to expect any digital logic chips running at 12V. Analog sound output might use +-12V, but not the logic that handles the front-panel switches. – Peter Cordes – 2018-03-08T06:02:57.347

2"Can kill", yes. However you need two electrodes inserted fully through the skin on either side of the heart to do so, which is not something that happens by accident. For the OP's question about anyone accidentally touching them, they are unequivocally safe and categorically cannot be injured. Note that licking an exposed 12V will definitely hurt, but it is not harmful to life. And as has previously been noted, there's a resistor limiting current anyway. – Graham – 2018-03-08T12:36:39.703