Hi, I am not sure where to post this. I hope I have placed it in the correct category and if not, Please the moderators can move to the appropriate place. Thank you ...

On Survivorman T.V. show about wilderness survivalism:

He showed a neat technique of fire-starting a warm campfire. He had a small bottle of potassium permanganate and a small bottle of glycerine in his first aid kit.

A few granules of permanganate on top of your fire lay, drip on a few drops of glycerine and you have a jet propelled fire. Just Amazing ....

I looked on a few websites about these chemicals which could be part of my survival camping kit.

http://www.chemistrystore.com/potassium_permanganate.htm

http://www.powerlabs.org/chemlabs/kmno.htm

I am still alittle concerned if this is safe. I mean it does get a campfire going really good though.

Maybe a smaller amount would work much better as far as fire craft survival skills go ?

Are there safer chemicals that ignite more slowly at a more reasonable rate for camping ?

I'm surprised you were not acquainted with this as it's an old method of starting a fire. There are other methods: break fluid and "HTH" Pool or spa chlorination material (hydroxides), there are quite a few other methods with common materials... - large amount of material available on the concept.

Same with me, this has been known since the beginnings of chemistry. I use glycerin all the time for igniting KmnO4 based flash powders. Antifreeze from you r car will also work, though I dont think you will have a bought first aid kit that has KmnO4 because they have much better antiseptics avalible.

Of course it gets the fire going, this will ignite many thermite mixes.

If I was the survival man or was stuck in the bush for some time, first thing I would do is make KNO3, get sulfur (depending on the area of the world you are in, you may be able to find deposits of it), and then get C from my fire and start blowing stuff up :).

I dont think you will have a bought first aid kit that has KmnO4 because they have much better antiseptics avalible

I am fairly certain that KMnO4 was included in first aid kits as a snake venom antidote, although I'm having a bit of trouble locating a site that supports this directly. Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snakebite mentions it briefly.

Now, I'm opposed to purposely carrying KMnO4 and glycerine as a fire starting tool because it seems a bit gratuitous. Yes, its a fascinating reaction, but does it truly outperform a simple mini Bic lighter, kept dry? I know that the reaction burns at extremely high temperatures, but personally, I would rather deal with keeping a lighter, or even matches, dry than carrying around two bottles. Also, I have found that the reaction does not occur at all if temperatures are too low and the KMnO4 is not finely powdered. If it just so happens that you find yourself in need of fire and in possession of KMnO4 and glycerine/anti-freeze, great, but I wouldn't count on the reaction over a trusty book of matches and a hearty knowledge of survival skills.

Well now you open an interesting point.....Long Term Survival Equipment Dependability. I would think that a device with contents under pressure would be good for about 3-5yrs (in certain conditions) but if exposed to climatic changes...perhaps a total chemical method of fire starting is more dependable than a pre-manufactured liter under pressure?
We know that most common lighters are not manufactured that well......And if we are to discuss this topic then the matter of the CHOICE of materials becomes much more significant.

A wad of 000 steel wool and a Lithium 9V battery sealed (separately!) in multiple layers of seal-a-meal vapor barrier plastic will be good for 10 years easily, and quicker/easier to use in wet, windy conditions. They also won't break and mix from dropping, setting your bail out bag on fire.

I've got a bottle opened in 1994 and it is fine. I use it for make flash. And in terms of fire starting devices/mixtures, the Permangante glycerin mix is an emergency idea that if you happen to have the two in your grounded plane, car boat to use, not to carry around. A waterproof jetlighter is a much better idea, but if you don't have that, then thats when you use whats next avalible.

A wad of 000 steel wool and a Lithium 9V battery sealed (separately!) in multiple layers of seal-a-meal vapor barrier plastic will be good for 10 years easily, and quicker/easier to use in wet, windy conditions. They also won't break and mix from dropping, setting your bail out bag on fire.

Is this what you are talking about ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iha9vQvnWMU

Wiki article:

For household cleaning use in many countries, including the United States, steel wool is sold as soap-impregnated pads under such trade names as Brillo Pad or S.O.S.

Very fine steel wool is sometimes carried for use as tinder in emergency situations; it burns even when wet, and can be ignited by fire, a spark, or by connecting a battery to produce joule heating. See campfire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_wool

I could never get this to work, I would add the glycerine to my potassium permanganate and nothing would happen for about 5 minutes. Couldn't be bothered troubleshooting as there are better things to do with glycerine and KMnO4 that doesn't involve mixing them for some fire :D

Is this what you are talking about ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iha9vQvnWMU
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_wool

Yes, exactly.

For more details, check here, the entry for July 22nd. http://thelawdogfiles.blogspot.com/2007_07_01_archive.html

If I was the survival man or was stuck in the bush for some time, first thing I would do is make KNO3, get sulfur (depending on the area of the world you are in, you may be able to find deposits of it), and then get C from my fire and start blowing stuff up :).

Easy to say, impossible to do.


This method is been suggested like ad hoc fire making method, Its not suggested that you carry two bottles with permanganate and glycerine all the time with you.

No, it's not impossible, just impractical. I remember there was a book circulating several years back about a civil war method of making gunpowder from scratch. I think there may have been a website where a pair of guys reenacted the information.

The went into a cave and dug up nitrate rich earth, which was processes in a bucket to extract crude nitrate... All the steps were how to make powder in the field, just like they did it 150 years ago.

Megalomania, I think I have seen that website before. Can't remember where I saw it on the internet. That would be very interesting if ran into a cave then needed some way to light a small fire to keep warm.

The nice thing about it is that you can carry a pouch of it and start a small fire to cook your morning trout for breakfast from the mountain's icy cold river.

I think that the fire starting method with the longest shelf-life is the magnesium block an knife method. Assuming you knife doesn't rust, this system could last much longer than you can live. The best part is that there is almost no possibility of incidental ignition, provided you do not keep a lit propane torch in your backpack.

If I am not mistakent, I believe that the fire piston is the most reliable (as in cannot be destroyed by the environment) because of its incredible simplicity. It is not nearly as fancy as any of the other fire starting methods discussed here, but it will always work if given enough time and dry tinder. Like all mechanical methods of starting fires, though, it can be rather frustrating if used in a dire emergency because it does not always start a fire the first time.

A bow drill is not fast. It is hard to use in a windy, unsheltered area, and needs dry tinder. It also requires a learning process, and a fine touch. But you can make it on site with sticks, plant fiber or animal sinew and a sharp rock.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohguGg5Q1KA

I believe the site you are referring to mega was http://cavemanchemistry.com/ which has gone commercial for a book, so no more online access. :mad:

But I found several articles on extracting nitrates from dirt. :)

Its possible, but hypothetical, so its mostly impossible,
because you couldnt obtain KNO3 and Sulphur.

As a kid I read some Jules Verne book, cant remember the name, plot about some people stranded on island, but I remember they somehow made gunpowder, (between few dozen other practical things they "invented" and turned that island to nice living place).

Nitrate making method sounds great in (in)famous a. cookbook, and in improvised munitions handbook (great book, source for many ACB texts),
but Ive never heard of someone getting any KNO3 from that method.

(anybody managed to done it here from forum ? )

Only thing that I saw, related to that, is when some guy from Nederlands I think, obtained KNO3 from stable walls, where it, as he said,
gathered in years from animal shite and various bacterias etc. and somehow it managed to start condensing on walls.

Sulfur can be obtained possibly from regions around volcano, but there arent many around.

I think the original source material Cavemanchem used is circulating around, quite possibly on the FTP, and maybe even in one of the Poor Man's James Bond volumes. I distinctly remember seeing the material in both and a website.

I thought the Cavemanchem website changed the last few times I surfed over there. I know archives of the old content are out there, likely a rip of the book too. They did put a lot of work into the site, its the kind of site I would like to make. Ordinarily I would not approve of them trying to make a buck, but there is a big difference between them trying to be reasonably compensated to help add new information, and big publishers like Wiley charging $45,000 for one year's access to a dozen PUBLIC DOMAIN journal articles.

I'm surprised you were not acquainted with this as it's an old method of starting a fire. There are other methods: break fluid and "HTH" Pool or spa chlorination material (hydroxides), there are quite a few other methods with common materials... - large amount of material available on the concept. Charles, are you suggesting that brake fluid can be mixed with lye to start a fire, please explain... Anyways, While the Mg firestarters are good, in my experience, in the field one needs to use a better ignitor than sparks to light the Mg dust.

For this purpose one can use the KMnO4 and Glycerin method. Also, I was using some 'Cyclone' stormproof matches the other day, has anybody a clue as to what the hell is in them, they burn like flares!

Rapidshare link to the files awaiting approval in my previous post:

http://rapidshare.com/files/80635968/NitreCaves_Extraction.rar.html