After reading much of the battlefield chem forum and for every toxin I come across I think there would be one more ideal in avoiding detection. My curiosity spiked when I read this: http://mb.rxlist.com/rxboard/effexor.pl?noframes;read=332

After doing some web searching the drugs I found to be most common to have a fatal withdrawal are antidepressants. Or at least those are the drugs having the most legal trouble. What I am now wondering is what sorts of chemicals could be introduced into the diet of *undesirable person* without detection until their system gets used to them. At which point the chemical is taken away and death ensues.

The most ideal would be a chemical that took some time for the withdrawal symptoms to become serious. That way the chemical would be out of the persons system by the time they had reason to suspect it was not a normal sickness, therefore making it near impossible to find out what they are in withdrawal from to save them.

Web searching didn't turn up much more than lots of articles on meth. Seeing as the chemical would work best without noticeable side effects while in use I don't believe meth to be a good choice...

Web searching didn't turn up much more than lots of articles on meth. Seeing as the chemical would work best without noticeable side effects while in use I don't believe meth to be a good choice...

Personally, I think you are on the right track with anti-depressants.

Set your VCR or Tivo to record a channel that has lots of soap operas on during the day and skip forward to watch the advertisements when you return home from work. It should be littered with ambulance chaser ads asking "Did a loved one in YOUR family die or commit suicide after taking [insert appropriate antidepressant here]? If so, we at [insert law firm here] would like to help."

You're sure to find more than enough different drugs to keep you busy researching, or at least that's my experience. Sorry I can't name any off the top of my head (I do so hate advertisements and most daytime TV), but you should be pleasantly surprised at the amount of different drugs which have the effects you are seeking.

The great thing about these drugs, though, is that even though they are prescription only medications, you should have absolutely NO trouble at all walking into just about any doctor's office and walking out with a prescription of your very own! They'll happily prescribe these drugs to you for everything from halitosis to a stubbed toe to dandruff anymore, for THAT is the role of a physician these days... to peddle the wares of Big Pharma, and anti-depressants seem to be a big favorite of theirs! (forget pain killers even if you've obviously been hacked almost into two different pieces by an axe murderer. If it can be abused easily, let the flaming hoop jumping begin). :rolleyes:

The point is, it takes a few weeks for the drug to take hold and no noticeable effects are apparent, yet once the target is used to them, to deprive them of the dosage (much larger than is prescribed, of course) without weening them off slowly is anything from psychotic behavior to imminent death. (I've personally witnessed the psychotic behavior before in someone I knew. NOT a pretty sight, and it was at low dosage, too!). ;)

festergrump - I have had friends that have taken SSRI's as a party drug :eek:(monstrously high dosages, as in 10-20x the indicated dosage) and they were trashed (see withdrawal symptoms below) the next day. I know that even on the indicated dosage, "cold turkey" withdrawal symptoms are shivering, massive irritability, nervousness and the feeling of "being wired".

I can't imagine the kind of dose required to result in death from withdrawal but I'm fairly sure the mark would notice such a high dose.

Perhaps another idea might be to use the effects to sabotage their life. Job interviews, romances, friendships, etc.

Eventually they will end up dead, or in jail just from being a prick all the time. Also, the continued dumps and uptakes of serotonin will ruin their receptors, making life an unpleasant experience I would imagine (no receptors=no pleasure response from the brain).

Another idea might be to use MAOI's so that they interfere with medication that they are already taking. Start to pump the mark full of MAOI's, then use a different chemical to simulate a condition that the doctor prescribes a drug that doesn't mix well with MAOI's and sit back and watch the action.

It would be easier just to give the mark 2 medication that don't mix, but that is too obvious to LE. If they have an existing prescription for a drug, and the mark ends up dead after a rave because of MAOI conflicts *shrug* then the mark was just stupid and took something they shouldn't have.

Well both of you have good points and ideas. I particularly like the idea of 'life sabotage'. If the mental and emotional effects were strong enough that may even be better than death in some circumstances as they would be completely discredited. Not to mention that they may commit suicide anyway. There's no better way to disguise an assassination as suicide than having it actually be one. Seeing as how the person would have already destroyed all relationships, nobody would have any doubts at all about it being genuine.

Another idea I had would be to replace the pills of a person who is already on antidepressants with placebos. I have no idea what the dosage would have to be to kill were it removed, but that would at least cause the aforementioned to take place.

As festergrump mentioned, they'll give out antidepressants for dandruff nowadays, so if your 'mark' has political power or an otherwise stressful job they are probably already on them. From there all that would need to be done would be to add more to their food/water/toothpaste for a while then stop at the same time as you replace their pills.

I'm still interested in what else could cause this fatal and yet subtle addiction. Perhaps high doses of nicotine? Can't think of anything else.

They'd notice nicotine, even if they weren't a smoker, unless it was constantly administered, but then they would spot the 15 Niccorette patches stuck to them.

I think this is a cool topic. Very promising. Combine a few anti-depressants together, and, so what if they are on them already? You start the dose at half the usual amount, and up it to 20 times, over whatever period you like. Then you stop. Or, you switch the "uppers" for "downers".

More subtle perhaps would be to add "downers" to the "uppers" they are already taking, then stop.

Of course, the usual issues with access, supplies, etc. apply.

MAOIs are a good one, if you give someone an overdose of MAOIs and then feed them some of a long list of food that is contraindicated with MAOIs, wine, cheese, whatever, and they could stroke out from super high blood pressure, mabye you could spike the wine at a cocktail party, if your invited to those things.

Do the MAOIs have any taste to them? I've looked around and haven't been able to find out. It would be hard to administer them if they had a strong flavour.
If not, that would be a good method to knock someone off, and it wouldn't be a pleasant way to go, either.

Vitalis - Yeah, that is a bit of a problem. If MAOI's taste anything like SSRI's, then they taste like paint smells (if that makes sense). They are pretty foul, but then again...

What do you eat in the morning? Do you eat it every day? I would be willing to bet most people eat the same thing every morning. Or have a cup of coffee. You wouldn't notice a couple of dozen MAOI's or SSRI's powdered in coffee granules. Start at a low dose and up it. They will get used to the taste of it eventually. If they run out of coffee, they will feel like shit and put it down to being addicted to caffeine.

I'm not too sure, but I would imagine there is a chemical to deaden taste buds, or the sense. I don't know if a numbing agent would effect taste (I wouldn't think so).

Interestingly enough - "One known cause of hypoguesia is the chemotherapy drug bleomycin, an antitumor antibiotic." (Wikipedia - Hypogeusia). Perhaps there are drugs that effect taste. Also "Dysgeusia is the distortion or decrease of the sense of taste. Dysgeusia is associated with zinc deficiency and some drugs for hypertension or anti-anxiety." (Wikipedia - Dysgeusia)

I have no idea what MAOIs taste like, but if they are bitter, perhaps that flavorit stuff will mask the taste. Of course they don't have coffee flavoured flavorit, but if your mark liked fruit flavoured drinks, maybe it would work, IF the MAOIs are bitter.

Anyone out there with some MAOIs to taste test? Just don't eat or drink any of the forbidden food or drinks for two weeks after testing them.

The MAOIs also have a fairly lengthy list of side effects (other than the one we are shooting for) so even if you could dose someone over time with an MAOI, they may think something is up with all the side effects and go visit a doctor and have blood work done.

A lethal combination would be an MAOI and a stimulant like an amphetamine. Apparently some ecstasy cousins like PMA can cause this kind of reaction on their own because of the conflicting effects which makes them so dangerous.

As far as withdrawal goes I was recently reading about delirium tremens (aka "DTs"), a symptom of withdrawal most notably from alcohol but also benzodiazepines and barbiturates. It can sometimes be fatal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delirium_Tremens

We know what you can and can't take with an MAOI, it is unknown at this point what an MAOI tastes like and Amphetamines taste like shit. Good luck slipping that combo to someone.

The benzos tend to have a fairly nasty taste to them, but one, Bromazepam, has almost no flavour. Drawback is that it is soluble in alcohol, not water. If your victim likes hard liquor, that could be a way to go, of course he would feel the synergy between the benzo and alcohol...

I think this method has a lot of flaws in it.

PS= wikipedia is not a real encyclopedia, so I would take any info gathered there with a grain of salt.

Apparently barbiturates only have a slightly bitter taste, sometimes with a metallic aftertaste so that might be more useful. Any of these drugs including the antidepressants are going to have noticeable side-effects, maybe your idea of using alcohol could explain some of the drowsiness.

I only mentioned alcohol because bromazepam was soluble in it. Trust me, someone would notice if their drink was spiked with barbiturates. One drink would feel like 5, and they may get a little suspicious.

I don't think this method would work unless you could find a tasteless (or something you can mask the taste with) drug with little to no side effects, then you pull the plug on their daily fix, or feed them the 'wrong food' and read about them in the obituaries.

Don't quote whole posts!

The chemotherapy drug totally screws up your sense of taste. My mom had chemotherapy, and she couldn't taste stuff for weeks.

How about regular old caffeine? Start doping their coffee with caffeine (extracted from NoDoz or synthed yourself) and increase the dose gradually.

After a while, their body gets used to the caffeine, and you up the dosage. Perhaps combine it with something to take the edge of the buzz and to help them sleep, and then, when you are ready, stop the excess caffeine.

The normal coffee that they have will no way make up for what they had before, and the comedown is a bitch, so I have heard.

Going from ~20 cups (equivalent) a day or so to maybe 5 is going to hurt....a lot.

They'd have a heart attack or seizure from the caffeine before any withdrawal would kill them.

Yeah I think the most likely outcome would be an arrhythmia of some kind but I have also heard of psychosis from excessive use.

Nicotine is far more addictive, and apparently you can get it in high concentrations as a pesticide... I wonder what you'd be craving if you didn't know where it was coming from before you went cold turkey.

Nicotine is lethal in relatively low doses, LD 50 roughly 1 mg/kg in adult humans. It would be challenging to give them consistently in high enough doses to render them helpless with withdrawal without either killing them outright or giving them symptoms of nicotine poisoning. which occur at much lower doses.


"Acute poisoning can result from skin contamination or inhalation of tobacco smoke, depending on the doses.

Small doses: Respiratory stimulation, nausea and vomiting, dizziness, headache, diarrhea, tachycardia, elevation of blood pressure, sweating and salivation. Patient will gradually recover, after a period of weakness.

Large doses: Burning sensation of the mouth, throat, stomach, followed immediately by the above symptoms. Patient may progress to prostration, convulsions, bradycardia, arrhythmia and finally coma. Death may occur within 5 min to 4 hours.

http://www.prn2.usm.my/mainsite/bulletin/1995/prn2.html

Fatal withdrawals occur from alcohol (10% death rate in untreated subjects) although to be fair a number of those are from undiagnosed trauma (e.g. subdural hematomas), barbiturates, and sedatives such as benzodiazepines. Potentially serious effects could be enhanced by administration of (therapeutic) doses of drugs which enhance the withdrawal symptoms - such as stimulants in alcohol or sedative-hypnotic withdrawal. We also see abrupt onset withdrawal in benzo users given flumazenil in ER's. The result is abrupt withdrawal characterized by status elipticus which can be life threatening but is treatable in the ER setting.

Remember the heavens-gate mass suicide - they did it with phenobarbital and vodka. The chloride ionophore complex has been very well characterized (that's what happens when you make a drug that's in the top 10 sellers for decades - The complex has a number of receptors - GABA (and therefore, GHB), benzodiazepines, alcohol, barbiturates, and others. It's clear that if you stimulate multiple receptors on the complex (again, refer to the heavens gate suicide) you get synergistic effects. Theoretically, you could use low doses of all the drugs and blow the receptor away, or just use drugs that require GABA in combination to be effective. For instance GHB withdrawal does not respond to benzodiazepines, but requires barbiturates (which can be effective in the absence of GABA)

Nicotine is lethal in relatively low doses, LD 50 roughly 1 mg/kg in adult humans. It would be challenging to give them consistently in high enough doses to render them helpless with withdrawal without either killing them outright or giving them symptoms of nicotine poisoning. which occur at much lower doses.

You need to know is the range from where it is no longer effective in sustaining the addiction to where serious symptoms/side effects then dilute it such that everyday use of whatever solvent you use to deliver it will result in a dose within this range.

Apparently cigarettes deliver 1-2 mg and nicotine gum can be twice this.

What about Warfarin? (It's a blood-thinning drug I've seen being prescribed in clinics)

Could a person who has been unknowingly consuming doses of a blood-thinning agent experience severe withdrawal symptoms? Maybe their body wont be able to readjust to the sudden thickening of their blood?

Or maybe a cocktail of Warfarin AND antidepressants would work??? Hit them both mentally and physically... :D

Warfarin has a long list of adverse drug interactions that can enhance or diminish its effects.

I have read that warfarin treatment should not be stopped abruptly but I'm not sure if a person has any greater risk of thromboembolism (a clot breaking off into the blood) than before treatment because they were probably taking the warfarin because of their increased risk.

I agree with ciguy007. I was told that the only 2 drugs that can cause death directly from the withdrawal symptoms (i.e. not suicide) are alcohol, and barbiturates. However, I fail to see how someone could slowly increase doses of something like those two without being discovered. It would also take alot of patience I guess.

1. call up target person, and say they are required for jury duty at xyz
2. sneak into house, and swap the container of meds(nearly everyone takes some form of medication) for the container of anti-depressant's, etc(make sure the labels are both the same, so when it get's investigated, it falls back to the pharmacy, and not you)
3. Escape
4. Wait for death.
5. You could even just sprinkle it on some food in the fridge/add it to milk/coke/whatever

Then live with your conscience for the rest of your life knowing you killed someone.(unless they deserved it, in which case +1)

Actually the concept of "death directly from the withdrawal symptoms" is a bit of a misnomer. While it's long been said about alcohol & barbiturates (and actually anything that works similarly in the brain) as well as diazapams if we're really talking about long term usage.....It's the grand-mal seizures and associated problems that result in death. I believe that medically, the withdrawal per se' does not kill but the results do.

Opioid withdrawal has long been recognized for a very valuable phenomenon that occurs from the release of a variety of chemicals in the brain. This has been used many, many times to extract information from a valuable resource & continues even today.
Opioid withdrawal could be exploited in so many ways. In the majority of people it results in feelings of PANIC! With a hard-core heroin user, they have adapted to this sensation and many can cope with it. But imagine if someone DID NOT KNOW that such a thing is a very natural occurrence and would subside?

I am told that the feelings in some people are so severe that they would do anything (anything!) to get more of the drug. This has been noted through out history & is a reliable phenomenon. I could discernibly imagine what it would feel like to have a SEVER panic response (that did NOT abate) for no known reason!!! That would be the meaning of personal horror.

Panic kills more people in indirect ways than most any other emotion. There are almost limitless ways that could be exploited.

On the subject of opioid withdrawal as a torture. I have had some experience with recreational heroin use as a teen and was given the drug narcan to treat an overdose. Narcan brings on instant withdrawal even after only a single dose of a narcotic. Repeated injections of heroin followed by narcan would make almost anyone spills his guts. I doubt the instant withdrawal is ever fatal but you shore feel like your dyeing. If some way of administering both drugs with out the victims knowledge is possible it wouldn't take long for the sane to turn suicidal.

I remember that I hear about some cruel druggies treatment used in Russia supposedly where they do just that, they induce that state of mind in druggies in "controlled" environment. I think they say them that is how it will be when they die from OD. Then I guess they "resurrect" them and continue treating them with methadon or whatever in the standard treatment for druggies. I guess the fear is the ultimate drive, heh? But I don't see they advertise that technique much as best ever due to the facts Charles already said.

the anticoagulants are also over-rated. There are documented cases of people subsisting on warfarin-treated wheat meant to be used for seed - stolen from US during the korean conflict. Even after weeks of consuming warfarin, subcutaneous hemorrhages were the worse finding. The journal Pediatrics had an article examining one-time exposures of anticoagulant rat poisons in kids. Conclusion was that in a normal child (no pre-existing conditions clotting disorders, etc) there was a 1:20,000 chance of an abnormal clotting lab value - and an noncomputable but very small chance of an actual physical effect such as bleeding gums, easy bruising, blood in urine, etc.

On the subject of opioid withdrawal as a torture. I have had some experience with recreational heroin use as a teen and was given the drug narcan to treat an overdose. Narcan brings on instant withdrawal even after only a single dose of a narcotic.

Narcan, I not only blocks opoids but also the bodies natural endorphins, so Narcan could be useful in torture, beat someone and their body will naturally flood itself with endorphins, shoot them up with narcan first and, well they would have an even less pleasant time.

Barbiturates have deadly withdrawal. Anticoagulants - no way. Nitroglycerin and alike drugs withdrawal may cause heart attack but in susceptible people. I don't believe it will work on young person.

A twist on a deadly withdrawal reaction is to secretly addict your victim to a heavy narcotic like heroin or Dilaudid, etc.

This can be done by starting at a dose too low to feel, then increase the dose gradually over several months until a substantial tolerance has been built up.

The total cooperation of the victim will be accomplished by withholding the drug, they would likely give up any info or cooperate in any manner you required.;)

If you wanted the victim dead, you would do as above, except the final dose would be an OD.

Testing would indicate previous, on-going drug abuse, so homicide could be easily ruled out.:)

I had a couple off-topic thoughts. First a combination of mptp?, an anti-Parkisonian? drug ala thread 5656 (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?t=5656&highlight=mptp) and an additive to make them self administer. Unfortunately the mix is not lethal as per th topic. Also see fictional references to exdomine? in a webcomic I've forgotten about, the Kolnari in 'The city who fought' and more applicably the fictional drug used by Alpha to keep her medical lackeys under her thumb as expounded in chapter 11 of 'PartnerShip'

Cobalt, how would you administer the drug? If you were hoping for the L.E to rule it an accidental overdose, you would need there to be recent as well as healing syringe marks that are typical of junkies.

...you would need there to be recent as well as healing syringe marks that are typical of junkies.MANY heroin users use by routes other than needles, most often nasally.

Nasally? I've never heard about that being a popular way at all. Where I come from, if it wasn't mainlined (injected) it was smoked, usually ontop of pot or tobacco in a makeshift pipe. Six to one, half a dozen to another... no holes. But wouldn't the deterioration patern (or lack of) of a nose which heroin which was often snorted be a sort of red flag?

Sooo, I'd guess that in the absence of tracks and the nasal septum looked OK, the coroner might then think smoking.

Whether there's any definitive testing for lung damage caused by "chasing the dragon", I don't know. If the victim were a tobacco smoker the damage would be masked anyway.

If it was a prescription drug being used, orally would be totally believable.

Not the most popular method, but within the realm of possibility, is anal ingestion. Don't laugh, narcotic suppositories have been used for years in legitimate medical treatment!:p

Fester, down to "The Bluff", if they don't shoot it, there's not a nigger there w/o a straw for snorting soft and the boy and/or a pipe for hard... (to those not savvy, "soft"= powdered coke, "the boy"= heroin and "hard"= crack);)