I thought a similar topic was covered before but after researching, no !

I found, browsing the web, this smoke device:

Military smoke powder / Releases vast amounts of smoke.

Ingredients:
-Naphtalene
-Anthracene
-lactose
-Carbon (soot)
-Sulfur
-KClO3
-NaHCO3 (stabilizer)

Mix napthalene, anthracene, lactose, soot, sulfur, potassium chlorate, milk sugar (lactose) and sodium hydrogencarbonate.

Ignite mixture and leave the range of influence immediately.
Military smoke powder can cause eye-, pulmonary- and mucous mebrane irritation. Do not try to inhale the smoke as it contains harmful partciles.

Ok this is going to be pretty fun but something is missing : THE AMOUNT OF CHEMICALS !!!

Is there somebody who know them ?

<small>[ August 30, 2002, 07:39 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

well if you had the chemicals you could experiment. but i'll have a guess and see how close it is to other peoples guesses :)
napthalene:10%
anthracene:5%
lactose:15%
carbon:5%
sulphur:4%
KClO3:60%
NaHCO3:1%

Or you could try the black smoke formula from PFP, similar but with fewer chemicals:

KClO3 44%
Napthalene 26%
Antimony Trisulphide 24% (Whoa, watch out for that and KClO3!)
Dextrin 6%

thanx ! ok, but I found that anthracene is very expensive ! could it be substitued, replaced by an another chemical ?

thanx for all !

EDIT : oh ! and could KCLO3 be replaced with NaCLO3 ? (which is cheaper...)

<small>[ August 29, 2002, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

Beware because anthracene is a well known carcinogenic. Is even more carcinogenic then benzene. I guess it was the first found to be carcinogenic from the aromatic hydrocarbures.

hehehe, I think this smoke bomb could be used as a chemical weapon is a close place ! muhahah

Anthracene (three benzene rings) is chemically and physically very similar to naphthalene (two benzene rings), and both serve the same purpose in smoke mixtures (carbon generator), and thus the two could be used interchanagbly. This is useful because of the relative cheapness and availability of the latter. Taking a guess, I'd say 40% KClO3, 30% napthalene/anthracene, 14% lactose, 10% carbon, 5% sulfur, and 1% KHCO3. Could anyone speculate on the nature of the KHCO3 in the mixture? It would seem to me like it would only serve a valid purpose if certain binders were added.

<small>[ August 29, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: CodeMason ]</small>

Here is a simple black smoke mix it tried that worked very well:

KClO3-6g
CharCoal-2g
Sugar-2g
Napthalene-2g


Here are some good photos of it in action:
<a href="http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/pics/blacksmoke1.jpg" target="_blank">http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/pics/blacksmoke1.jpg</a>
<a href="http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/pics/blacksmoke2.jpg" target="_blank">http://members.shaw.ca/raydawg/pics/blacksmoke2.jpg</a>

If the lactose simply acts as a fuel then it could probably be directly replaced with sucrose (table sugar). This is after all only an isomer of fructose.

At the PGI convention this year I attended a really good presentations on smokes. The presentation is a little hard to follow without the guy talking but here is the link to it:
<a href="http://www.crackerjacks.org/PGI2002_Smoke_files/frame.htm." target="_blank">http://www.crackerjacks.org/PGI2002_Smoke_files/frame.htm.</a>

link is dead ! :)

Erase the period from the end of the hyperlink.
Try this:
<a href="http://www.crackerjacks.org/PGI2002_Smoke_files/frame.htm" target="_blank">http://www.crackerjacks.org/PGI2002_Smoke_files/frame.htm</a>

The KHCO3/NaHCO3 would only stabilise the mixture with water i think...maybe atmospheric moisture is enough for this to happen though. I have no idea of ratios, so i cannot speculate there.

inferno that is true but also you have to think why the mix needs stabalising. it is due to oxides of sulphur reacting with water vapour from the atmosphere to generate H+. thus is there is water vapour then H+ will be generated and also removed by the bicarb as it forms.

I recently tried the next smoke formulation

20% Sulphur
10% PVC powder
70% Zn powder
(everything in weight).
This not only gives off a lot more smoke than every KClO3 based composition but seems to be safer and can be cast. The ingredients are mixed and then the polymerizer is added, after it dries, it hardens in every shape you want. Any other resign can be used also!
This gives white-grey smoke and burns with beautiful green flame, very long time, the smoke consists of : carbon, ZnCl2, ZnS, ZnO. This is very similar in performance to formulations containing hexachloroethane...

PVC powder ? where the hell could we get this ? :)

PVC powder(glue) is used to repair pvc pipes and glue pvc profiles! Every hardware store must sell it.
If PVC glue is not available, it can be replaced by powdered PVC pipe and epoxid resign(5-10% resign), every resign works! You know the resign that is used to make glassfiber strong? It works too, just put 5% resign to the mix of S and Zn, add the hardner and wait the mix to harden... Such professional smoke device is made at home extremely easy :) !
Another idea is to use styrofoam dissolved in gasoline to bind it, makes deep black smoke.
If you don't want to lose much time making this, just fill a PVC pipe with the mix, before filling, stirr some PVC pieces in the mix :) !
PVC burns extremely nasty and without it, the recipe loses part of its spirit :) hehehe!

Aaaaaaaaah !!! this is PVC GLUE not powder, why did you name it "powder" ? yeah this is avalaible everywhere...

Ok, I've just tested out this
napthalene:15%
sugar:15% (instead of lactose)
carbon:5%
sulphur:4%
KClO3:60% but I used NaCLO3
and I didn't put Bicarbonate because I used it immediately

The fumes was white, and the mixture burnt extremely fast !

furthermore : </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"> Military smoke powder / Releases vast amounts of smoke.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">=&gt; my Ass !

Is there way to slow down the burn rate and to really realease VAST AMOUNTS of SMOKE ? maybe PVC glue will do it ?

thanx !

<small>[ September 03, 2002, 03:59 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

Just a quick Q to the brits, PVC glue isn't the same as PVA glue is it?

No, PVC glue is not the same as PVA glue, although PVA glue does have uses in case rolling etc. PVC glue should be available in DIY stores such as homebase, B&Q, etc (Or so I assume)

I didn't think it was the same, no harm in asking though. :)

try this, more fuel so a slower burn rate:
napthalene:20%
sugar:20%
carbon:5%
sulphur:5%
KClO3:50%
don't use NaClO3 because it has more oxygen per weight and the extra oxygen produced will make it burn faster. if you must use it try 40% NaClO3 with 25% sugar and 10% charcoal. the rest of the ratios being the same as above.

thanx kingspaz ! I will try all these recipe ! I used NaCl03 because it's really cheaper than KClO3... If you got a good and cheap source or KClO3, tell me it plz ! :)

If I use PVC glue, I think the bicarbonate could be owned since no air could affect the sulfur, no ?

thanx !

Good relatively cheap source of KClO3:

Convert NaClO3 to KClO3 using something like KCl, KNO3. Check J's page <a href="http://www.connect.to/juice" target="_blank">www.connect.to/juice</a> for more information.

I didn't know it was possible and so easy ! this is perfect for smoke bomb ! :) thanx !
Furthermore, I have acess to 99% NaClO3 and 99% KCl ! (for the last : 1kg = 11€)

EDIT : you said "KNO3", is this possible with this chemical too ? muhahahah I have a 25kg bag of KNO3 ! it cost me 10€ !

But, what about the equation ?
NaClO3 + KNO3 =&gt; KClO3 + KCl ? that's right ? if KNO3 is possible, the price will decrease near to ridiculous ! wonderfull !

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

No problem Stanfield. I think Mr Cool uses KNO3 to make KClO3 from NaClO3, and I am el crapo at chemistry, but your reaction looks wrong to me, I think NaClO3 + KNO3 --&gt; KClO3 + NaNO3 looks more correct.

Well, if Mr Cool says it works, I'm inclined to agree with him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> You might as well experiment anyway, from my experience it takes ~6hr (this is how long I leave it for anyway) for the KClO3 to precipitate, and not that long to wash and dry it, you could make a batch within a couple of days easily.

<small>[ September 04, 2002, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: zaibatsu ]</small>

making near saturated solution of KNO3 will be difficult no ? KNO3 isn't very soluble in water ? I just realized I never made a solution of potassium nitrate ! wahahaha !

stanfield, basically all you need to do is mix KNO3/KCl and NaClO3 in the correct ratios worked out from the equations above. then you dissolve this mix in the least boiling water needed and allow it to cool. when you dissolve the salts you end up with an 'ionic soup' which is a big mix of K+, Na+, ClO3- and NO3-/Cl-. because solubility decreases with temperature the least soluble ionic combination precipitates as the solution cools. the least soluble combination is KClO3 :D . then you just filter ii out and wash with cold water to remove nitrate/chloride that has also precipitated.

ok, I've made a mix of 500g of NaClO3 and 424g of KNO3, yes, 424, I'm wrong ! 50g are missing... like an idiot, I made a mistake in my calculation... I added more than 1 Liter of boiling water but some powder are always remaining in my beaker, is it normal ? I didn't want to add too much water too ! this is the first time, improvement will come next...

So, I will let the mix all the night, and after ? I have to filter the mix and just wash it with ice water ? what will be the effect of my mistake ? (50g of KNO3 not added)

thanx !

stanfield the error you made is only small in comparison to the ingredients size so it will only slightly decrease the yield of KClO3 because there are fewer K+ cations to precipitate with the ClO3-.
it doesn't matter that a little powder remained in the water. it could be impurities in the chemicals used or not quite enough water was added. either way it doesn't matter. i recomend washing it with plenty of ice water as KClO3 is not very soluble in ice water where other salts present are. the purer it is the better because then it'll dry much faster and also stay dry in the composition.

argh ! I filtered out the beaker and I obtained a YELLOW powder like NaClO3 ! I added 2 L of ice water but I will try again to wash it with lot of cold water tomorrow... (the yellow powder is always in the filter paper !)

Imagine I obtained relatively good form of KClO3, how can I know it is *TRUE* KClO3 ? is there a reliable test to see this ?

thanx !

EDIT : my yellow powder isn't very soluble in ice water like true NaClO3 wich is VERY soluble !

<small>[ September 07, 2002, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

sounds like you have KClO3 then. the simplest test for purity i know i to put a little KClO3 onto some Al foil/metal plate and heat it under a flame. when it decomposes the flame should be a violet purpleish kind of colour. if there is much orange in the flame then there is sodium ion impurities. the reason for this is...
sodium ions emit orange light when excited (energy is given to them, eg. heat) and potassium ions emit purple/lilac. to put it simply anyways :)
if you are interested in this search for 'flame tests' or somthing similar.

After this test you will now if it is a chlorate, and with the flame test you will now if it contains potassium.

I would recommend using the KCl because it is much more soluble, I always use low sodium diet salt,
which contains 66 % KCl and 33 % NaCl and cost around 0.5 to 1 Euro. Per 350 Gr.

KCl is also used for making beer and 1 Kg will then cost 4 to 5 Euro.

From
<a href="http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/analysis_EN.html" target="_blank">http://huizen.dds.nl/~wfvisser/EN/analysis_EN.html</a>

'Acid senstivity' test for chlorate
This test is very insensitive but may be used to distinguish chlorate from perchlorate or indicate very heavy contamination of a perchlorate with chlorate. It relies on the fact that chlorate/sugar mixtures ignite when they contact sulfuric acid.

1. Take some sample material and make this into a fine powder with a mortar and pestle.

2. Clean the mortar and pestle well with hot water, dry it well, and then grind up some common table sugar.

3. Take 500 mg of the powdered sample and 500 mg of the powdered sugar. Mix these carefully using the diapering method

4. Place this mixture on a tile outside and drop a drop of concentrated sulphuric acid on it. If the mixture contains more than 20% chlorate it will ignite.

thanx for all, now my powder is dry and it's white with some yellow particules in it, so it worked ! I really don't think the KClO3 produced by this way have a good purity but this is only used in smoke bomb and not as a chemical reagent !

What about using sugar instead of lactose ? Maybe you'll said I'm an idiot but I've only found lactose in powder for baby, is it the good chemical ? it's very expensive ! (boxes of 2Kg...)

thanx again !

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

I justed tested out TWO mix :

- The first :
KClO3 = 6g
Charcoal = 2g
Sugar = 2g
Napthtalene = 2g
Dextrin = 6g
+ PVC glue as a binder

- The second :
napthalene = 15g
sugar = 15g
carbon = 5g
sulphur = 4g
KClO3 = 60g
+ Paraffin prills (too many !)

The first is a shitty mixture, no smokes produced but the burn rate was relatively low... PVC glue must be the incovenient, maybe lesser could give you better performances !

The second produced large amount of (toxic) smokes but there was TOO MUCH flames ! a true blowtorch ! :) I put paraffin prills beacause the was an another topic who used that (effective and inexpensive smoke grenade). How could I reduce the flame produced ?

Both of them were made with my homemade KClO3 who isn't very pure...

The PVC Glue seems to be a good idea but too much decreases the smokes production !

<small>[ September 12, 2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: stanfield ]</small>

stanfield your KClO3 should be pretty pure. to reduce the flame i would guess to use 5-10g less KClO3 and 5-10g more napthalene.
but as i said thats only a guess!...have fun experimenting!

There always are lot of flame... I will try to bind it with polystyrene or PVC glue (not too much !), maybe it will reduce the flame and increase the amount of smoke...

what about stearin? I think it would be good to melt the pyrotechnic composition together with the stearin on a hot water bath, so you can press the plastic mixture into tubes and let them cool down...

edit: Typo's

<small>[ September 14, 2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: mr.evil ]</small>

Stearin is good idea but it needs HEAT to cast the mix. Using stearin in mixes with KClO3 will be dangerous.
Do you think that polycyanoethen ( -CH2-CHCN-), aka "moment glue" can form dicyan or HCN from its burning? It will be perfect energetic and cheap binder for homemade smoke comps and rocket fuels, if it can't produce toxic gasses.

Stearin is candle wax and will melt at 60*C. Melting it with KClO3 would be a lot safer than doing likewise with KNO3/sucrose!

but doesn't the candle wax(stearin) and the KClO3 form an explosive? like Paraffin/KClO3?

60 degrees C. Isn't that much, i guess it will be safe to melt the mix together on a waterbath. Really 60 degrees isn't the ignition temperature...i will try that OK? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

napalm may be a good idea too since it burns very slowy...

This afternoon, I burnt about 200g of bad-homemade black powder to get back the container... I never imagined that black powder, in big quantity, could generate some much smoke !

maybe this is the best smoke composition...

Rat Bastard,

That looks a lot like a formula of mine I posted a while back(here). I believe it can also be found in my C-Spec file. I works great though doesn't is. If you are going to use it in a canister I advise adding Baking Soda(NaHCO3).

To my knowledge Military Smoke Forulas contain Hexachlorathane and Zn. It Produces ZnCl(Forget th valance for Zn; ZnCl2?)

thanx for help !
But hexachloroethane isn't a very common chemical... where could I find it ?

<a href="http://www.pyrotek.org" target="_blank">www.pyrotek.org</a> is probabley your best bet.

It isn't very common to the best of my knowledge. You may be able to find high concentrations of it in an industrial strength solvent.

Is pyroteck ok to order from?Because i have heard some people say that one should stay away from it.

There is no such thing as a Safe source. Sometimes you go into a farm supply place and they will seel you 50kg bag of NH4(NO3); Then you go into a pharmacy and as about I2(solid) or KNO3 and they will call the cops. There are certain places that are better than others.

One thing you have to realize is certain thing will get you "Red Flagged":
Red Phousphorus -P
Nitric Acid -HNO3
Glycerine
ETc. Etc.

You have to keep in mind that you must have a legitimate reason for them. It doesn't have to be and long story. Something as much as "Science PROJECT" works well. Don't tell them the reason unless they ask. Don't buy in certain combinations:

4L HNO3
4L H2SO4
1L Glycerine

I think addition of (mono, di, tri) Ammonium Phosphates to a PVC or other CHC based smoke composition should increase effectiveness, as NH4Cl vapor is quite dense and so would the P2O5 vapor. And if it just a carbon based high temp composition (styrofoam, napthalene etc..) NH4Cl could be added.

While researching how to generate reliable black smoke to use in a model r/c warship to simulate the coal they used back then (WW1), I saw a post from zaibatsu dated 8/28/02, but haven't tried it. I would need a controllable device or system to install in the model (12vdc).

Any ideas?

breech,

Though it's your first post and it's a question it sounds like you've done some research at least. So I'll give you a shot at an answer.

It really depends on how many channels your RC transmitter has. If you have an open channel in your transmitter it could be used to activate a relay and lower a Nichrome wire into the smoke mixture. Just about the time the wire hits the pot have it close a 12V circuit to power the Nichrome wire and ignite the smoke pot. I think the problem is going to be the amount of flame produced from the sound of the other posts. Don't want to burn your boat down to the water line. Though you could always say it took a hit in the fuel bunkers.

The other possibility is the same setup but instead of a smoke mixture use some light machine oil like sewing machine oil. I was a Rep for an Air Purifier Company a few years ago right after I retired. One of the demonstrations we did was a clear Plexglass box with a small air purifier in it and a small pot with a Nichrome wire coil in it. We'ed put a few drops of light machine oil on the Nichrome wire, hit the first switch and it would generate a heavy white smoke in the box. We'ed turn off the first switch and turn on the second switch to the purifier and the smoke would disappear. This would get you white smoke but maybe there is something you could add to the oil to get black smoke.

I know this system was used in some of the old model trains I had as a kid to generate smoke from the stack. Some had a tablet that was set over a Nichrome wire chamber and others had a bottle of oil that was dripped into the chamber. I do remember one of my trains was the oil type and it produced black smoke so I know it can be done. If I used too much oil my Mom would get pissed about all the smoke it generated.

Good luck in working it out.

All he needs to learn now is how to form proper sentences. :rolleyes:

Wikipedia has very good information on smoke dyes and other military smoke chems.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke-screen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke_grenades
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colored_smoke

To my knowledge Military Smoke Forulas contain Hexachlorathane and Zn. It Produces ZnCl
Is it hexachlorathane or hexachlorethane?

I think it is called both because I’ve found information on both being used in smoke mixes, although wikipeida refers to it as “hexachloroethane” (a different name again :confused:). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoke-screen

I think I’ve found another source of hexachlorathane as “degassing tablets” in metal casting. http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:bpjr-SsAP1gJ:www.myhomefoundry.com/casting_info/Hobby_Metal_Casting.pdf+Hexachlorathane&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=4

I was reading somewhere that commerical smoke bombs use Zinc Stearate to make their smoke. I'm guessing it forms Zinc Oxide on combustion.

Alexires, I have also read this. After looking into it I found nothing more than "powder puffer" bottles and "guns" that used Zinc Stearate in a "dust smoke spray".

I would be interested in seeing a recipe where it is used in a pyrotechnic composition.