This is a really simple question, with most likely a really simple answer, and will probably come off as stupid, since I'm pretty new to pyrotechnics and chemistry. So I'm posting it in the Water Cooler.

Could you make a mixture of thermite out of magnesium instead of aluminum, that could be lit with a normal fuse? If you mixed a certain percentage of magnesium to iron oxide, would a reaction like this be possible?

3Mg + Fe2O3 = 3MgO and 2Fe

Since magnesium burns at around the tempurature required for iron oxide to react properly and release its oxygen, and magnesium powder could be easily lit with normal fuse, my magnesium thermite could be lit with visco provided that the reaction is possible.

Is it?

It's supposed to work, although straight magnesium with a little random fuel or even just atmospheric oxygen will burn damn good anyways.

Apparently magnesium will also react with nitrogen to form magnesium nitride. So I guess magnesium is pretty well off burning in an atmosphere of 80% nitrogen and 20% oxygen.

Mixtures of Iron Oxide and Magnesium may ignite with a simple fuse, but I would use further magnesium i.e. (ribbon) to ensure reliable ignition. I understand that you want a hotter burning Thermite, but in my opinion using magnesium instead of aluminum is foolish. Aluminum was chosen because it has a low melting point, but an extremely high vaporization point. What this means is that when molten aluminum reaches its peak temperature it can vaporize steel and even concrete while still being in a liquid state. This is a huge advantage, and is still the main reason that we use aluminum in our military Thermite mixtures today. In Iraq Thermite is being used to melt through large steel safes that were owned by Iraqi Insurgents. Because the Aluminum is molten, it can seep into smaller pores and crevices vaporizing the material from its core.

Jabir has one good point, "foolish." - no offense, but I don't know much about vaporization points, so I'm not commenting on that.

Traditional Thermite: 2Al + Fe2O3 -> Al2O3 + 2Fe
Your Idea: 3Mg + Fe2O3 -> 3MgO + 2Fe

Note the mole ratio of amount of magnesium needed compared to aluminum. They have relatively the same molar mass so you would need more magnesium than aluminum. From experience I also found aluminum to be cheaper than magnesium by weight.

Conclusion:
1) You don't need as much Aluminum as Magnesium
2) Aluminum is cheaper

This is also something you should try out yourself before asking.

WHAT THE FUCK ?????? We all can understand the following: "Oversimplification leading to generalizations that are incorrect."

Many new people can learn something here.
Read this statement slowly, "Aluminum was chosen because it has a low melting point, but an extremely high vaporization point. What this means is that when molten aluminum reaches its peak temperature it can vaporize steel and even concrete while still being in a liquid state."

Do you see the problem? This would not go over well in a quality middle school. There are MANY "thermites". Read and study more than one simplistic descriptor. STUDY the subject before running you mouth to the public & appearing as a know-it-all. This can be avoided - by using "I" statements that are not all inclusive. EXAMPLE: "From what I have read thus far.... I believe that the thermite reaction exists when...." Thus if you make a boo-boo someone can interject the illogical concept, correct a misconception, etc, etc. And this can be done (& often IS) VERY politely too.

Charles Owlen Picket
Hey Bud, It sure is good to be back on. With that said, can you help me out here? I haven't to date been able to come up with a reliable fuseable Thermite. I know there is an easy answer here. But I just don't know what it is. I'm not being lazy Bud. I'm just asking you to save me some research time. For the most part my thermite mix is, or has been a 25% AL to FEO.

My respect and Regards

I'm not being lazy Bud. I'm just asking you to save me some research time.
If you're "not being lazy" then WTF are you doing, pleading with C.O.P. to be spoonfed? UTFSE.

Quit signing your posts.

And who the fuck is Bud?

If you're "not being lazy" then WTF are you doing, pleading with C.O.P. to be spoonfed? UTFSE.

Quit signing your posts.

And who the fuck is Bud?

Cobalt has that right in one.

Goodbye.

I recently purchased a pound of Skylighter thermite at a gun show for $15 and I've been having a bitch of a time trying to ignite it. I've used thermite before mind you, the red hematite mixture which was much easier to use and sparklers could be used to ignite it.
Should I go ahead and try to find some Mg ribbon or use an ignition mix like those listed?

I have always used Mg ribbon to ignite thermite mixtures.

I believe with some compositions you must use Mg, as the ignition point is so high you cannot even ignite with a blowtorch! Do you know what the thermite you bought is composed of, and in what percentages?

Another option I have seen is chemically igniting the thermite, for example with KMnO4 and H2SO4.

Skylighter thermite? They don't sell it as such. And if they did, I would think they would sell a "standard" mixture that would take nothing exotic to ignite.

If a propane torch won't light it, I think you've been had.

Does using sulfuric acid w/KMnO4 burn any hotter than by using glycerin?

Thermite ignition mix has been a lot more reliable than Mg ribbon for me. I had never used any before so I got a little from UN. I know they are a little pricey, but I wanted to try it out.

It never fails to ignite the standard Al/Fe3O4 or Fe2O3 thermite and the ignition mix easily takes off with the heat from standard visco.

If I ever need a large amount of ignition mix I may try out what I've seen in US Patent 6308607

Potassium Nitrate 66.89% by weight
Titanium 14.96%
Silicon 7.78%
Aluminum 8.67%
Binder 1.70%

Has anyone tried this ignition mix before? I did search and I found some ignition mixes that look useful, but I didn't see this mix listed.

It is indeed made by skylighter. It's not exactly a standard mixture Cobalt45, they claim it is an easier lighting formula due to the addition of magnesium.

I have no idea what the ratios are but it is black iron oxide and looks really crappy and granular compared to the red iron oxide mixture. I don't how old it is but that shouldn't really matter as thermite has a long shelf life.

Perhaps I've been had.

I'll try some Mg ribbon as soon as I can get my hands on some more. I used to have a 25ft roll of the stuff

I've used the H2SO4+KMnO4 mixture and made Manganese Heptoxide before I'm not too sure that would do it. Pretty nasty stuff btw not too fun if it lands on your skin.

It sounds like what you have there safety, is DELAY comp! It must be mixed w/KNO3 to be used.

If it is Firefox's delay comp*
The ratio is from 25/75 to 50/50 KNO3/delay comp. It burns, well, like shit. Nothing like thermite, anyway.

It is supposed to be damped w/cellulose acetate and acetone (but should burn/smoulder w/o it) and pressed into place, dried then primed w/a thermite-type prime. Burns (50/50) at the rate of ~ 2.2 mm/second.

It makes a lot of smoke:)...

*Is there any way it could have come from Firefox, not Skylighter?

I don't think this is worthy of a separate thread so I will tack it on here, if that's OK w/the mods.

This is "Thermate" comp with Fe2O3 used instead of Fe3O4, but is a Goldschmidt reaction none-the-less. Goes like this:

Fe2O3 26.25 parts
Al 8.75
BaNO3 15
S 1

KNO3 can be substituted for the BaNO3. The Al was cheap 1000 mesh.

It will ignite w/black match. It could also be used as a first fire for any hard to ignite thermite comp, as it burns stupid-hot.

Quote from SafetyLast- "It is indeed made by skylighter. It's not exactly a standard mixture Cobalt45, they claim it is an easier lighting formula due to the addition of magnesium."

If you say so, that's good enough for me!:) Pls. disregard my previous post.

Excellent, thanks cobalt. You're right it is from firefox, i'm not sure why I thought it was skylighter I had to check it the other night just to make sure. I've been having one of "those" weeks if you know what I mean.

There was a small instructional pamphlet that came with the tub and it listed several methods of ignition including mixing in an nc laquer to make a sort of sparkler.
It's labeled "Thermic Mix with magnesium for easier lighting". Not sure why they would label it as that if it was a delay comp. I'll try the addition of KNO3 and report back with the results.

I would tend to believe the instruction/info sheet that was enclosed w/the comp. Firefox has thermite: http://www.firefox-fx.com/specialfx.htm
but doesn't mention Mg in it. Could be some NOS, maybe?

Have you tried drying it real good? I don't know how (or if) moisture might have effected your comp.

I posted a thread on a fuse-ignitable thermate-type comp elsewhere- that comp will light it, if anything will. But I think drying it first might help, then try to ignite normally .

For thermite ignition I have my own 'Special' method that never fails, well, it hasnt failed yet.

I get a 6 inch piece of fresh, unoxidized, magnesium ribbon and fold over the bottom 2 inches. this makes a piece 4 inches long, with 2 inches of 'double thickness' magnesium.

I make sure that the double thickness pieces are as flat against each other as possible. Then I wrap the double thickness part tightly in three layers of plumbers teflon tape. This makes a improvised 'Teflon/ magnesium' incendiary. I place the teflon wrapped part into the thermite and ignite the non wrapped magnesium fuse. Then I run away :D

My next batch of magnesium ribbon is arriving soon. I will video it then.

Magnesium ribbon is only effective if the Thermite is of high grade and fine. Mixing Mg powder directly into it will almost always provide excellent ignition from ordinary fuse.

Thats odd, my thermites are usually quite coarse, but then again is a teflon magnesium incendiary I use, not just normal magnesium. I think the teflon mix burns hotter. Personally I am going to try some of the calcium sulfate and aluminum castable incendiary soon with a teflon magnesium ignitor and a potassium Permanganate/ iron powder ignitor to see which one works better. Videos to come soon enough...

Hex - I would certainly assume it burns hotter. Decomposing PTFE (Teflon) would liberate Fluorine which would react with....well, everything making stuff a lot easier to ignite.

This is the instruction sheet for Firefox Magnesium Thermite:

Most thermite compositions, when ignited, combust at temperatures in excess of 4000F creating molten slag alloys of the candidate metals which in turn are capable of burning their way through other metals they come in contact with - much like a cutting torch.
Basically a mixture of iron, iron oxide, aluminum and silica, the mixture is very difficult to ignite, but once ignited, very difficult to extinguish. Here, the problem is ignition.
This thermite mixture contains magnesium which appreciably lowers the ignition point and adds to the combustion heat for more "flowable" slags. However, although easier to ignite than standard thermite, it still requires a hot ignition source. The following steps may be taken for reliable ignition;

A) Thermite Prime % by weight
Potassium Perchlorate 65
Aluminum, fine (flake, granulated, atomized) 15
Red Iron Oxide 15
Magnesium, fine (any form) 10
Moisten with Nitrocellulose Lacquer solution 50/50 (NC lacquer, Acetone) and press into a "cookie", allow to dry and break into 1/2" pieces for use.

B) Through a kitchen strainer, separate 2oz of fine thermite mix (return the larger particle screenings to the thermite mix) and add 18 to 20 grams of Potassium Perchlorate, OR the contents of the oxidizer packet if supplied with this thermite. MIX WELL!
Fill a void with this dry powder and ignite with a piece of safety fuse or a sparkler.
The sparkler will work best with either as it combusts with a much higher temperature than that produced by safety fuse.

C) Sparkler type ignition
Twist together two strands of fine 22 to 28 gauge copper, iron, or steel wire and roughen by pulling it several times through coarse sandpaper. Dip twice (drying between coats) in the following slurry to an approximate diameter of 3/16" to 1/4". Allow to fully dry overnight and cut into lengths of 1 1/4" to 2" long for use.
One or two pieces together should ignite this thermite.
% by weight
Potassium Perchlorate 35
Barium Nitrate 30
Aluminum, fine 15
Red Iron Oxide 10
Magnesium 10

Moisten to a thick batter-like slurry for dipping with NC lacquer solution (previously mentioned) Add a drop or two of acetone to the slurry when needed for thinning (slurry dries rapidly)

Copyright 1997 FIREFOX ENTERPISES INC.

A) Thermite Prime % by weight
Potassium Perchlorate 65
Aluminum, fine (flake, granulated, atomized) 15
Red Iron Oxide 15
Magnesium, fine (any form) 10
Moisten with Nitrocellulose Lacquer solution 50/50 (NC lacquer, Acetone) and press into a "cookie", allow to dry and break into 1/2" pieces for use.

I made a 10g batch of Composition "A", above and found it to be VERY impact sensitive but relative insensitive to friction.

The formula was followed as given, with the exception of using ~ 8 mesh magnesium fines and the Al I used was 1000 mesh spherical, all other chemicals were dry but otherwise unremarkable. The NC lacquer was made from single-base smokeless powder (no nitroglycerin content).

When dried, I took a small piece and tried it w/a hammer/anvil. Not scientific at all, but it went off (loudly, w/flash) from a firm "tap" (think driving a thumb tack into pine) as opposed to a solid hit. Every bit as sensitive as "good" 70/30 flash.

Grinding a small sample w/the hammer face into finished concrete resulted in a smear w/no ignition. Using a larger sample and/or rougher concrete may give different results.

As for the performance of this compound, trying to light a 1/2 inch piece w/o some sort of fuse or indirect ignition puts ones hands too close to the whole thing for comfort.

So, I found that if I wrapped a gram of the comp (not a solid wad, more like 1/4 coarse granules and the remainder a solid piece) in aluminum foil with the black match held in contact with the comp, it ignites with ease.

I also fused a 2 gram "blob" while damp with visco. Upon the lit visco contacting the dry comp, a rather energetic "pop" was noted. This scattered much of the comp- some lit, some unlit- so this method wouldn't be my first choice for using it w/o further testing.

Wrapped in aluminum foil, the same fused blob performed well, w/o any explosion or the comp being ejected. But whether the "pop" or "no pop" is the norm I can't say, having made only 2 of the visco-fused blobs for testing.

So anyway, just be cautious when manipulating this comp when dry.

I am currently working on a chlorate, nitrate or Permanganate based ignition comp which will be sensitive to both visco fuse and microteks silicon fuse. I will be finished it when it can ignite thermite 10 times out of 10. Only then will it be ready. however first I must complete some other projects and it is on the to finish list so dont hold your breath.