I have done a fair amount of research on this compound... I get mixed reviews some say it self confines in very small amounts (more reactive) and others say it is safer then pure pyro Al? My question is can it be both? Would everyone consider it to be very powerful and also safer to use then Al? What would the ratio by weight be with KCLO4 70/30 or 50/50?

Thanks

Since you've 'done a fair amount of research on this compound', how about you share it with us first? Hmmm?

Then we'll answer your question. :)

Ok. From what I have read, it is the best of both worlds. It is far more reactive then Al, and from what people say it is safer to use. My question here is safer compared to what Al or Mag? I assume it is safer then Pure Mag, as I know Mag is sensitive and very violent. I already located mixtures so that is not necessary anymore. Now confinement? Until I actually use it I will not totally understand it... Right now I am using a 70/30 mix perc/pyroal and I can get a nice pop unconfined... Should Mag/Al be more like a confined salute of Al/Perc? Does less mag/al/perc = more bang over Al/Perc?

PFP Database is my friend. :)

Would this mixture be considered more, less, or about the same in sensitivity as perc/al 70/30?

Potassium perchlorate 50
Magnalium, -325 mesh 50

FlashBang, I'm sure there is a thread somewhere regarding Magnalium (possibly the "Whats wrong with my flash powder" thread).

Maybe try some experimenting? Hell, I'd be happy with either Mg, Al or Magnalium powder.

Some alloys of Mg/Al are safer than Mg in regards to unwanted reactions during processing, handling and storage, particularly if a pyrotechnic mixture is damped with water or exposed to high humidity environments such as exist inside a paper shell during pasting.

Their are a wide variety of possibilities for alloy percentages, particle size and particle SHAPE, as well as of the pyrotechnic mixes they may be considered for. No blanket statement can be made regarding safety suitability or effectiveness. Personally, I would use a flash grade dark Al flake rather than 325 mesh Mg/Al 50:50 granular (which is likely what you could access) if I were making an aerial salute (I do not make firecrackers).

Maybe move this thread to Pyrotechnics and we can expand on this?

I have seen mg\al on ebay 600 mesh with german dark, and mg. This seems like a very good blend.

The ebay Mg/Al proves to be far more violent then just Al.

Even at 1g, it lets out a nice report unconfined, and appears black in color.

I'm not sure on how sensitive it is to shock but I do know it is far more reactive.

It flashes so fast you can hardly see it during the day, and is blinding at night.

I know from experience that Mg/Al is quite a bit more powerful than any other aluminum out there that I know of. I've tested it against 2 micron dark flake and 2 micron doesn't even come close.

I've gotten it to where it will report unconfined in quantities less than .5g, and at less that .25g if even slightly confined. 1g of it sounds like a 30-30 just sitting in a little 9/16"ID x 1/2"L open cup, and will even give a small chest thump when 15ft away. I couldn't get 2 micron to report after trying up to 3g, it just makes a whump sound. It's amazing stuff really. As for the safety aspect of it, I would highly doubt that it is safer than Al flash, probably safer than Mg flash though. I havent done any impact tests on it yet as I don't use it in large amounts and not often either, so I'm not to worried. I may do tests in the future but I'm not positive.

The odd thing is that the 600 mesh Mg/Al I have will burn in the open air without any oxidizer whatsoever other than air. It burns similar to magnesium giving off black and white floaty things. And it is extremely bright at night, it will leave a white spot in your eye for about 5 min if you look right at it (NOT SMART :eek: ). I love it for small rocket reports and such when you have limited space. The last time I did 1g in a tiny cup I could feel my porch vibrate, it was about 20ft away.....

Heres a link to a smaller test video of it:

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=magnalium&hl=en

It's about 25mg in the tip of a hollow point .177cal pellet.

Edit: The Mg/Al I bought was an alloy of 50/50, IE melted both metals together and then refined into 600mesh flake powder, not just blended powders. My Al is 2 micron flake Al from PyroAluminum, when they were still in business. I tested it and it also burns in the air, not as good as Mg/Al but it does. I wonder why Mg/Al is so much better?

EDIT: The video you see is a mistake, I never actually weighed the powder in the tip and to my surprise doing a similar test it was found the powder mass could not have exceeded 10mg, it was actually closer to 5mg. Making the "splodey pellet" below taught me to be more accurate. The pellet in the picture was not drilled and when I drilled and packed powder into the splodey pellet I could not get more than 10mg into it. So to my surprise that is alot less than I originally thought it was.

Have you tried shooting a pellet loaded with the magnalium to see if it'd ignite from impact? :)

nbk: No I haven't tried that for a few reasons:

A. I don't believe it is sensitive enough to ignite without a primary means, like a paper roll cap or something. It hasn't been tested in that exact scenario, but judging from other impact tests I'm rather sure.

B. I could fit at max 10mg in the pellet anyway so it wouldn't make a big enough pop to be heard over the cap going off and it's not powerful enough to break up the pellet or anything. Which is good I guess, that way there wouldn't be and shrapnel flying back at you :eek: .

C. There are better explosives that could probably be used, like the shit in rifle primers or the substance in the roll caps themselves. Maybe some SA or something, even then it's rather hard to initiate SA by itself, I could only do it in my blowgun stun darts with some ring cap powder to help it along.

Though now that I think of it attaching paper roll caps to the tips of pellets sounds kind of interesting.... Maybe I'll try the explosive pellet idea. That does arouse my interest. Just seeing a little flash when the pellet hits would be rather neat. I could try to drill a tiny hole in it too for extra powder. I'll try that some time and see what happens....If I can find my roll caps :D .

If you have anything to add please do so.

Edit: I have tried to make what I call the "Explodey Pellet" theres a pic attached. I used roughly 10mg of ring cap powder, that's all I could fit, it was too small of an amount to register on my balance accurate to the 1/100th gram. The pile was about 10 cubic mm in volume. Its a .177 caliber pellet drilled out slightly with powder in tip and a tiny paper disc between the BB and the powder. I will test it and post results soon. Q/C?

UPDATE: Tested Explodey Pellet V1 and it was a success, an audible report, though it wasn't very loud. There was also substantial mushrooming of the head, it about doubled it's diameter. After this test I decided to try it with the Mg/Al flash to no avail, even primed with some ring cap powder it didn't work, so I'll stick with more sensitive explosives with these. :D

I have recently purchased the magnalium powder off of ebay. As everyone else has stated 10 times already, yes it is much more powerful. I have also found it to be safer simply because of the higher mesh. If you were to compare the sensitivity of magnalium and Al of the same mesh side by side, I am sure that the magnalium would be more sensitive.

This being said, I have some barium nitrate and was wondering if the method of using 70/30 Al/KCLO4 and then adding 30% Ba2NO3 and 3% sulphur would improve on it. I am out of KCLO4 right now, but I will be recieving some soon, so i will post my results then.

How is flash safer when it is more sensitive? I don't care what the mesh size is, if it is more sensitive it is not safer.

Magnalium and Aluminum are totally different and you can't compare mesh sizes of a less reactive metal to a more reactive one. 600 mesh Mg/Al is way more reactive than 2400 mesh Al for sure, so don't say just because the mesh is higher that it is in any way safer.

using 70/30 Al/KCLO4 and then adding 30% Ba2NO3
If I'm reading this as you've written it, the comp breaks down as follows (ignoring the S):

54% Al
23 KClO4
23 barium nitrate

What I think you mean to have said, is: Replace the KClO4 with barium nitrate and a little S, in the traditional formula of 70/30 KClO4/ Al (Not Al/ KClO4). But I am guessing.

Your answer lies somewhere in UTFSE, there are numerous sites with dozens of flash formulas...

How is flash safer when it is more sensitive? I don't care what the mesh size is, if it is more sensitive it is not safer.

Magnalium and Aluminum are totally different and you can't compare mesh sizes of a less reactive metal to a more reactive one. 600 mesh Mg/Al is way more reactive than 2400 mesh Al for sure, so don't say just because the mesh is higher that it is in any way safer.

Reactivity is NOT the same as sensitivity. By safer I'm talking about the sensitivity and yes, a more reactive metal of the same mesh would be more sensitive, but a higher mesh means less surface area. Which means that the practical activation energy will be higher.

If I'm reading this as you've written it, the comp breaks down as follows (ignoring the S):

54% Al
23 KClO4
23 barium nitrate

What I think you mean to have said, is: Replace the KClO4 with barium nitrate and a little S, in the traditional formula of 70/30 KClO4/ Al (Not Al/ KClO4). But I am guessing.

Your answer lies somewhere in UTFSE, there are numerous sites with dozens of flash formulas...

I remember reading somewhere that the original formula used by the military involved KCLO3, Al, S, and Ba(CLO3)2. I just figured that you might be able to substitute the KCLO3 for KCLO4 to decrease the sensitivity, while still providing 'more bang for your buck.' (just remember to use boric acid ;) )

the original formula used by the military involved KCLO3, Al, S, and Ba(CLO3)2. I just figured that you might be able to substitute the KCLO3 for KCLO4 to decrease the sensitivity, while still providing 'more bang for your buck.' (just remember to use boric acid ;) )

If you mean to use chlorate, Sulfur and Magnesium or Magnalium, the particle size of the metals are going to be the least of your worries.

Also, boric acid has a role in protecting ALUMINUM in NITRATE mixes, boric acid will ATTACK Mg and to some extent Mg/Al in the presence of water.

I was thinking of using the barium nitrate with the 2micron india black Al I have, not neccesarily the magnalium.

I might try a bit with the magnalium just to see how it works though. :)

Reactivity is NOT the same as sensitivity. By safer I'm talking about the sensitivity and yes, a more reactive metal of the same mesh would be more sensitive, but a higher mesh means less surface area. Which means that the practical activation energy will be higher.

I know that reactivity isn't the same as sensitivity but they affect each other. Just because Mg/Al has less surface area doesn't necessarily mean that the energy required to initiate it will be less. Do a simple flame test with the Mg/Al and your 2 micron aluminum. It takes far more energy to initiate the plain aluminum than it does for the Mg/Al in open air even though the Mg/Al is way more coarse.

And why do you add sulfur to flash compositions? If the whole point of using "safe" Mg/Al is because it is less sensitive, then adding sulfur would just cancel it out. From what I understand, flash comps are no better when adding sulfur or Sb2S3, they aren't any louder or more powerful, just more sensitive and dangerous. Making something more dangerous is just a dumb thing to do.

I know that reactivity isn't the same as sensitivity but they affect each other. Just because Mg/Al has less surface area doesn't necessarily mean that the energy required to initiate it will be less. Do a simple flame test with the Mg/Al and your 2 micron aluminum. It takes far more energy to initiate the plain aluminum than it does for the Mg/Al in open air even though the Mg/Al is way more coarse.


I have done the flame test with my magnalium vs aluminum. A burning paper(no flame just the slow burning of the paper[like how a redhot coal looks moving in a line]) is enough to ignite the regular mix, while it takes an actual fuse to ignite magnalium. It takes about a full second to ignite a small pile of magnalium with a butane lighter(BBQ type) While the Al is instantaneous.

Now maybe its not supposed to do that, maybe the proportions are wrong and its not working to its full potential, but the way it is now, magnalium is 'safer' and louder.

[EDIT] Are you talking about testing the sensitivity of the FLASH mix by burning the fuel alone? without the oxidizer? All that that proves is that magnalium is more reactive(taking O2 from the air) which we already know. Again, I mean the sensitivity of the FLASH mix, not the magnalium alone...Does Al even burn alone in the air? Obviously the magnalium will appear to be more 'sensitive' if you look at it that way, but practically when you mix the flash, the endproduct is less sensitive than with the Al.


And why do you add sulfur to flash compositions? If the whole point of using "safe" Mg/Al is because it is less sensitive, then adding sulfur would just cancel it out. From what I understand, flash comps are no better when adding sulfur or Sb2S3, they aren't any louder or more powerful, just more sensitive and dangerous. Making something more dangerous is just a dumb thing to do.

Adding sulphur alone to a flash mix won't do much unless you have coarse Al. However it WILL speed up the reaction(since it acts as a catalyst). Why do we add sulphur to BP? To control the speed of the reaction: I.E. The 'power' of it. When you add barium nitrate which is an extremely powerful oxidizer, what you get is more oxygen that the reaction needs which ideally isn't a good thing, but there is no such thing as a perfect mixture so practically it evens out. The barium nitrate will also impart a bluish/green tint to the explosion which adds another effect to an M-80.

I had this crazy dream today where I finally tried the Barium Nitrate/KCLO4/Al/S mix and it was a bit more powerful than the regular ones and it did impart a funky color to the 'explosion.' It sounded essentially the same but when placed in a dense foam box, the Barium nitrate did take off a little bit more foam than the one with Al alone.

I don't have a video camera but if I can get one I will take a video and put it up.

OK, I did mean for you to do a plain fuel burn in open air, and after doing it with my metals and having the Magnalium ignite much more easily than the Al, I figured since it was more reactive and easier to ignite that it was more susceptible to initiation, hence more sensitive.

When you did your flash burn test with the burning paper, what kind of mix did you use? The flash mixes I use are KClO4/Mg/Al or Al, and the proportions are different for each. The Mg/Al doesn't need as much oxidizer as Al does so a ratio of between 50/50 and 60/40 are used for best results. I use the typical 70/30 for Al.

When I do a test, I light the tip of a splinter of wood and blow it out, similar to your paper test, and ignite it with the tiny ember on the tip, as seen in the video I have on Google (Test was actually 5-10mg NOT 25mg). When done with the Mg/Al, the flash ignites almost instantly, but when done with regular Al, it takes a second or so.

Maybe it's just the chemicals I have, I don't know. I bought the Magnalium quite awhile ago, maybe I got a really good batch. I bought the Al from Pyroaluminum when they were still in business, it was 2 micron flake Al. The KClO4 I have is "Chinese Gourmet". I guess it depends on what you're using, so I might just be under unique circumstances or something.

And about the sulfur: After watching the "Blast Waves & Flash Powder" video, I'm in the undertanding that sulfur does not add any power or loudness to flash, it just sensitizes it. They did multiple tests with different types of Al with sulfur and Sb2S3 and found that the blast was no better than without it. I have not done such tests, so I don't know personally that it does anything, but I'd rather just go without it anyway and not waste my sulfur. Even if it did add power, a little power doesn't justify the extra sensitivity in my book.

I think that different chemicals might play a role in our different results.

Mine:
Al - 'http://tinyurl.com/v44ej'
KCLO4 - 'www.unitednuclear.com'
Mg/Al - 'http://tinyurl.com/y79sah'

The Barium nitrate and sulphur were also from unitednuclear.

My Al is only 600mesh but there is quite a bit of dust in it. When using a match the flash will ignite before even touching the mixture.

What are the formulas you are using? The same as you stated above? I don't have barium nitrate, but I plan on getting some in the future to make green stars, maybe I'll try it in flash.

When I add sulfur to the normal flash I make, it does ignite way easier. That's what sulfur does, it makes it easier to ignite, same with Sb2S3. I tested my Mg/Al flash with a hint of Sb2S3 and it ignites very easily and it sharpens the pop, which is what generally happens.

Sulfur or Sb2S3 will 'sharpen' the report of certain flash mixes, making it seem louder. I prefer the deep chest thumping sound of normal flash, it seems more powerful that way. But since you have a different flash mix and tested with your foam test, maybe yours is more powerful with the Ba(NO3)2, I don't know. Try the flash without sulfur or Ba(NO3)2, just KClO4/Al and see if adding sulfur makes any difference. Then try adding Ba(NO3)2 without sulfur, then both to see which is best, considering cost and power.

It seems as though nobody has posted in this thread in awhile, so I guess I'll post some new findings about my Magnalium.

I was bored one day and found some ACS grade KMnO4 I had bought awhile back, just for the hell of it. I've heard of people using it for flash so I figured what the hell, I'll try it with my Magnalium. All I could say was WOW. When tested in ~5mg amounts unconfined it makes a nice pop boy howdy, about 5x louder than with KClO4.

I've found it works best in a ratio between about 50-50 and 55-45, KMnO4-Mg/Al. The KMnO4 was very finely powdered, my Mg/Al is about 600 mesh flake.

My guess is that the magnalium would burn more brightly than the aluminum would, correct? The burning magnesium should give off even more light than the burning aluminum alone.

Also, a little off-topic, but how does KCLO4/Al flash "explode"? Where does the gas come from? Wouldn't the byproducts just be Al2O3 and potassium chloride? :confused:

EDIT: wymanthescienceman, I just noticed your comment:

I prefer the deep chest thumping sound of normal flash, it seems more powerful that way.

I totally agree. That's why I love black powder salutes. They have a nice, deep chest-thumping subsonic boom, whereas a flash powder salute has a sharper, supersonic "crack".