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nbk2000
January 10th, 2005, 05:21 PM
Allrighty then, take two of this article, previously lost because of the actions of the spunk-chuggers of I-Defense. :p

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Nano-sized particles are commonly being made nowadays for many diverse uses, and are commercially available with no questions.

We're all familiar with the concept behind the dusty agents, that being that particles aren't absorbed by the permeable protective clothing that's commonly used by western armed forces, so that particles of a certain size range (impregnated with toxic chemicals) would be able to penetrate through the CW protective ensemble, to attack the person within.

Now, the particle sizes typically discussed for use as dusty carriers are in the micron range. However, the particle sizes I'm thinking of are a magnitude smaller, and wouldn't attack the skin, but actually be inhaled because they're too small to be filtered out and, thanks to the unique properties of nano-scale particle motion, actually attack the brain directly.

In the attached article, it is described how nanoparticules are actually transported along the nerve paths and into the brain, bypassing the brain-blood barrier that blocks so many (otherwise) effective poisons.

Because the toxin would be tranported directly to the brain, it would likely be much more effective as there'd be no dilution through the blood as their would be if it had to absorbed through the lungs.

'Buckyballs', nanoscale cages made of 60 crbon atoms, have been proposed as carriers for elemental atoms because the cage can expand during heating to open up, closing up and entrapping the desired substance inside once cooled.

By enclosing highly energetic alpha-radiation emitting particles within a carbon cage, you'd be able to create a radiogenic weapon that would likely be:

1) Undetectable by most conventional 'terrorist' radiation detectors in public targets, as they're all looking for gamma and neutron radiation, as that's the type most often expected to be used in an attack.

Not only is detection decreased because of the type of radiation, but also because much less radioactive material would be needed, as it's...

2) Very lethal, as the radiation isn't being diffused through the entire body, but concentrated in the one spot most sensitive to it, the brain, because of the nature of the particles and their interaction with the nervous system.

3) Unstoppable, as nano-particles are way too small for any air filter to stop, and are even capable of penetrating otherwise impermeable barrier clothing, as every material has flaws at the nano-scale that these particles could pass through.

4) Cheap, as nano-particles, especially buckyballs, are commercially available. And suitable radioactive material is as close as a smoke detector or chunk of uranium ore.

MrSamosa
January 15th, 2005, 01:51 AM
Still more fun ideas; but one thing bugs me about having buckeyballs absorb poisons such as Nerve Agents... If the Nerve Agent molecule is trapped inside the cage, wouldn't that interfere with the reaction with the enzyme?? Another concern, as is always the case with dusty agents, is if the particles build up a charge. They might cling together and not disperse properly, or they might be repelled/attracted by charges in the target's clothing, preventing some from reaching the target properly. But also, you mentioned simply using an anti-static spray to deal with this problem in another thread, as is used in laundering...so that is certainly something to consider here.

But let's return to the original idea of using Buckeyballs containing Radioactive materials as a radiological weapon. Smoke detectors are not a suitable source for radioactive material; the amount of Americium in them is almost negligable. I while back I did the calculations for how much 1 kg of Americium from Smoke detectors would cost...it was something like $25,000 or $250,000. Uranium Ore, on the other hand, is a very viable source as an alpha emitter.

A procedure for extracting yellowcake from Uranium ore is detailed here: http://www.geocities.com/norm_alara/

But another concern presented by this is the size of most radioactive elements... Wouldn't they be too big to fit inside a Buckeyball?

If we want to be even nastier, we could find a way to trap Beryllium dust inside Buckeyballs and make a mixture of Uranium/Beryllium buckeyballs to be dispersed, creating Neutron Radiation.

mrcfitzgerald
January 15th, 2005, 02:46 AM
I dont think it would be paticularly cost effective to use Uranium as the alpha source, this is because of the extremely high mass required for even one curie (~1,500 lb). Prehaps Dioxin would be a more effective weapon, not only does it exhibit a higher cancer rate per unit weight (in animals) but it has the added benefit of contaminating vast quantities of territory for very long periods of time per unit weight. A case in example would be the accident at Seveso where roughly 20lbs of dioxin contaminated dozens of square kilometers. Indeed, it seems that dioxin (especially delivered via nanoparticles) could compete well with radiological dispersion devices in terms of shear area contaminated.

MrSamosa
January 16th, 2005, 02:36 PM
Sticking to the idea of employing Uranium... What about soluble Uranium salts, e.g. Uranyl Nitrate? Reducing them to inhalable nanoparticles would greatly increase their potential as weapons. They wouldn't be radiological weapons though, just humble kidney poisons. Of course, any soluble heavy metal salt could be used for this purpose, but "Uranium" appeals to a certain sense of fear. "Airborne Uranium particles" sounds much scarier than "Airborne Lead Particles."

Chris The Great
January 17th, 2005, 12:03 AM
If you have access to uranium ore it would be more effective to extract the radium from it, as radium is extremely radioactive, as well as it's decay products, it would make a much more effective weapon. You would need a fair amount of uranium to give someone cancer in a few decades compared the amount of radium required to cause someone to be radiation sickness in a few days/weeks.

The fear factor could be enhanced using plutonium. Most people will asume plutonium is a super radioactive metal (it is radioactive, but nothing like radium etc) and so the mention of "unstopable plutonium nanoparticles" will send them running in fear. I suppose the effect wouldn't be that much more than that of uranium, although casualties would be much greater, as plutonium is both very toxic as well as very radioactive (relative to uranium).

Plutonium could be svavenged from spent reactor fuel (which would be even more deadly then straight plutonium), which shouldn't be to hard if you have the capacity to make nanoparticle carriers for it to be dispersed in. Plutonium can also be obtained in small amounts (several grams) from lab suppliers (if you have a good reason). But this route would be harder then using uranium as it would be difficult to obtain the plutonium in any quantity. If this is a small scale terror weapon, that shouldn't matter too much however.

mrcfitzgerald
January 17th, 2005, 01:56 AM
Well, I looked at the extraction of radium for awhile but it just doesnt look feasible... Consider the fact that, out of seven tons of pitchblend ore -there is only one single gram of Radium. It took the Curies somewhere around two years to do the job... In this case, its more feasible (and effective) to disperse all seven tons in a dirty bomb, than to spend a life time extracting the radium. You may aswell separate out the U-235 for that matter, theres a whole lot more in there than radium (~50 lbs in 7 tons of pitchblend)...

Spent fuel rods would require remote handling, unless you had a death wish (which Im sure most terrorist do anyway...) and would be abit cumbersome to handle (has about the same heat output per kilogram as a 100 watt lightbulb...) Its probably just better to bypass the nanoparticulate encapsulation stage for this material.

Now assuming that whatever radioactive particle is encapsulated is delivered directly to the brain... Does anyone have a clue how much more damage this would do than if the metal ended up in... say the liver? Im thinking that it would be more effective, in actuallity, to deliver the particles to the liver because the liver is constantly dividing and making new cells thus any genetic damage to the cells of the liver is more likely to grow a tumor. If genetic damage occured in the brain, it would not have a chance to really grow and divide into a deadly tumor (because brain cells, generally, divide less than the other cells of the body.) Of course, this may be balanced out by the fact that brain cancer is the deadliest kind of cancer....

Anthony
January 17th, 2005, 03:39 PM
This may be a rather daft question, but why do the radioactive nano-particles have to be encaged in a buckyball?

Surely, to fit in a buckyball, they must be small enough to make this direct journey to the brain by themselves?

MrSamosa
January 18th, 2005, 07:28 PM
Anthony: I thought about that same question, and the answer I came up with is that Buckeyballs might make the particles easier to disperse. That is, it's a lot easier to encapsulate the radioactive metal in a buckeyball than it is to grind it up to nano-sized particles.

nbk2000
January 18th, 2005, 07:49 PM
Exactly!

Buckyballs are already available pre-made. Heat them up in a atmosphere of UF6 (or similarly gaseous form) and, when cooled, there'll be atoms of uranium trapped in a nano-scale cage, ready for dispersal.

Or, what about making the buckyballs out of a radioactive isotope of carbon, bypassing the need for extracting isotopes from other materials? And nanoparticles are replicable in small labs, so buying the nano's isn't even neccessary. Surely anyone willing to do this would have the funds to do it well. :)

Also, what about attaching biologically active molecules to the carrier particles? They'd be specific to specific enzymes or whatnot of the target organ, so that the buckyballs go straight to where they're needed in the body.

Targeting the means of production of nitric oxide in the body could result in violent or suicidal behavior in the affected victims, as it does in mice. Mass exposure of many thousands of people to such an agent, even if effects are delayed, could have serious reprecussions on the local levels.

Imagine thousands of people in a city going ape-shit, all within a short period of time, far in excess of the usual homicide level. :D

I don't know about the practicality of all this, as it is just a theory, but even just the attempt to make it by a terrorist would put a huge crimp in nanotechnology development as the world organizations that control such things start putting all kinds of 'anti-terror' regulations on the development on nanotech, a field which has (so far) been untouched by such sheeple knee-jerk reactionaryism.

Hell, enviro-freaks like ELF might want to develop such a thing just for that very reason! ;)

MrSamosa
January 19th, 2005, 11:35 PM
Targeting the means of production of nitric oxide in the body could result in violent or suicidal behavior in the affected victims, as it does in mice. Mass exposure of many thousands of people to such an agent, even if effects are delayed, could have serious reprecussions on the local levels.

Imagine doing that to tourists at the grand canyon...now THAT would be a bizarre/funny news story as the media tries to find some cult connection or other explanation. If it were repeated a few more times, I'm sure the Grand Canyon would be considered "cursed."

Reminds me of a combination Fluoroacetate-Organophosphate mentioned in Saunders that caused lab mice to bite their cage-mates and otherwise become violent... But that's an idea for a new thread--chemicals to induce mental changes.

nbk2000
December 15th, 2006, 06:34 AM
Seems I predicted the weapon used to assassinate the recently dead russian spy in britian. :)

If it WAS buckyball encapsulated polonium, than I need to sue those damn russians for using my idea and not paying for it! ;)

megalomania
December 25th, 2006, 08:18 PM
You can try them in the same court that they tried Bush and Rumsfeld for war crimes. Good luck with that :)

simply RED
December 27th, 2006, 05:35 PM
There is not a practical way to synthese buckyballs till now...

ciguy007
October 29th, 2007, 11:46 PM
Brain is the wrong target for radioactivity - probably the least sensitive tissue in the body because neuron reproduction is so slow. I think the example of Alexander Litvinenko is instructive - a high capacity alpha source such as polonium 210 can be lethal at incredibly low doses. I've seen professionally-done calculations which conclude that the dose administered was 4 micrograms. This dose effectively killed him in the first 24 hours - the rest of the time was just waiting for the damage to accumulate enough to cause death. The downside is that you need a nuclear reactor to make that much pure polonium 210 - so its use is limited to a nation-state until somebody figures out how to get a fission pile built in their back yard (or somewhere under their control)

Another problem with nanoparticles is that below about 1 micron in size, the particles are poorly retained in the respiratory tract - they act much more like gases than particles - breath them in, breath them out.

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When you've got something more to say, you edit your last post, not create another post ONE MINUTE LATER! :mad:

nbk2000