Well I did my civic duty, and I waited an hour and 15 minutes to do it too. My voting philosophy is all Republican and never a woman.

How many of you voted today? I am also interested in hearing what the foreigners have to say :) From what I gather you Europeans follow the US elections almost as closely as Americans do.

Up here in Canada it was broad casted on CBC durring the news. Somehow they had very different numbers than CNN...

Personaly I'd like to see Kerry win because he looks like a lazy guy who is just power hungry, and doesn't really know what he's going to do for the next four years. Unlike Bush(who I think is going to do something durastic again) Kerry might be the type of guy who just wants to coast through the next years and not do much. :o

I voted a few days ago. Though I don't really like how democratic parties tend to ban everything, I really fucking hate george bush so I voted against him.

I was all set to vote against Bush, but then the democrats failed to give me a candidate that was gonna do better job and agree with my values. Also as others have mentioned Kerry was going to start banning things willy-nilly, because some dumbass can't read the warning label and take it seriously.

I only had to wait 30 min at my polling place, although I did get there ~6:30am. The media says there are some polling places that have lines in excess of 5hrs long, and this is at 9:45(EST), 2:15hrs after the polls stop allowing people to get in line

Sure did. I voted for Bush, I fear Kerry would be all too interested on making tighter gun laws, and I love my guns all too much.

A freaking chimpanzee could do a better job at being president than fuck head.

I followed the elections very close, as european. I really hope that Kerry is going to win, since Bush want information on everyone, and he is wiping the floor with out privacy rights.

I looked at the TV this mornig, and I fear Bush is going to deliver the world a new nightmare...4 more years - ow God, NO!!
Off course Kerry would also be an asshole, but Bush has already proven to be one.

It's probably going to be a sad day...

In both cases, we are doomed I believe. Since both of them are members of notorious and dubious Skull and Bones, the result shall be the same only with the difference that Dubya will be hawkish and Kerry dovish (is it really so?).

I would have sent in my absentee ballot. but the stupid Dems in new jersey only posted my ballot card on sunday, it arrived monday and for it to be counted it had to be back in hackensack by tuesday evening. to get it from the UK to hackensack in a day would have cost me about £35 ($65). A bit much to pay to be insignificant if you ask me

I'm not from USA. I would vote Bush anyway...democrates that made mess in international politics trough patronizingly supporting Muslim terorist (as long as they fit their plans) are by mine opinion guilty for making the shit-hole that Bush is trying to get out. He is no Nobel prise candidate certainly (except for the extensive use of the dynamite:)) but at least he is working something, and he tries to correct the errors from the past. The things that Kerry speak is OK for the part of the intelectual population, but he just didn't want to win - he didn't touched the minds and hearts of the majority. That is the second reason - if Bush is stupid as they claim, he cerainly knows how to pick a men in his team, as his speaches were better in that part.

Yes, it is being followed closely over here. Yes, I am fed up with it! I honestly couldn't give less of a shit...

So no one voted kerry because he'll ban everything? I heard today that GWB, being a christian fundamentalist was trying to ban/censor porn, and imprison porn-purveyors?

It doesn't really matter who wins - it's always a politician, and that means your fucked. The president/prime minister is usually largely a puppet anyway. The real power being held by the unelected people who are out of the public eye, and remain the same for decades.

Bush got my vote , and I am one of the
not so rare nonpartisan voters , having voted
for the better choice without regard to party .

Hmmmm , about the myth concerning W's dull wittedness ,
actually Bush's IQ is more than ten points higher than Kerry .
Kerry was a small patrol boat captain in the military , Bush was
a highly rated supersonic jet fighter pilot with a whole lot
of flight time , even though he never got assigned to combat .
Both men were Yale graduates , so neither are dummies ,
but Bush is actually the brighter of the two men , even though
he "tawks suthern" and sounds more like a hayseed , it is
misleading about his intelligence , as is true for many others .
Some of the old apollo astronauts sounded like hicks but had
three or four doctorates , same idea and same misleading stereotype
impression .

As an Australian I have absolutely no interest in American domestic issues. Even though I'd probably have voted for Kerry if I were a US citizen, from a self interest point of view I'm glad Bush won. Whilst Bush has helped secure Australia economically and militarily both Kerry and Edwards bashed Australia at least once during the campaign.

Kerry by downplaying Australia's involvement in the invasion of Iraq; "If Mississippi were a country it would have been the third largest member of the Coalition" (or something like that) and Edwards by singling out Australian farmers for stealing America's jobs via the upcoming free trade agreement. Bush strikes me as weird to say the least but if Kerry wants to piss all over Multilateral co-operation with small nations and Free Trade he can go to hell.

What's the point?

Are things going to change because Kerry replaces Bush? Or because Bush remains in power?

No.

Because both are rich fuckers who've gone their wholes lives stepping on people to get to where they are now, so there's no point in stopping when they have the entire world to step on, now is there?

No.

Tweedle-dee or Tweedle-dum.

Or, if you prefer, you can vote for some 'off-brand' candidate that's got no chance in hell of getting voted in because they don't have the connections and the money to rig the vote or influence the bleating masses.

The only vote that counts is the one cast from the barrel of a gun.

Just because Bush's college professors were paid off doesn't make him an intelligent man. I find it a miracle that the man had enough skill to fly a fighter jet. Even if he is this so called scholar that you make him out to be, he sure does make a lot of retarded remarks. Like the one about the French not having a word for entrepreneur. But I guess I can shut up now since he's going to be the president for the next 4 years.

Yes...the grinning simian is prez for the next 4 years.

Though someone, perhaps with a turban on their head, may yet cast their absentee vote for Kerry and deliver it to Bush via .308 express. ;)

OT:

I just tried to access The Firing Line forum from this computer, which uses Norton AV and parental controls (not my machine), and it blocked it for weapons, yet I have no problem posting here, even though we've weapons at our disposal far more dangerous than any simple gun can be. :p

That brings up a good point. I know that a lot of people were worried about a democratic candidate taking away their gun rights. But I didn't really have any problem with this so I voted democrat. Besides target practice, the only reason I own a gun is to take out stupid mother fuckers. Since improvised weapons are impossible to ban, I would never fear losing my right to take out some stupid mother fuckers. I believe that at the very least 50% of Bush's votes came from fears of one kind or another. Fearing terrorism, fearing that you will lose your gun rights, or fearing whatever influenced a lot of voters. Basically none of that applied to me. I can give thanks to this website for opening my eyes on how to protect myself if shit were to really hit the fan.

Ironically the threat of assassination would have been much more
of a headache for Kerry , not from any foreign enemy but from the
military whom he would command , four out of five of them having
no confidence or respect for him , and probably quite a few with
some real hatred for the man . It would have been a nightmare
for the secret service , as well as presenting problems in the
military chain of command .

I definitely agree with that rosco.

As a European, I see some things different:

I'm not allowed to own a gun or carry firearms. If I wanted to I simply would do. Exactly the same as with explosives!
Do you really like to have EVERY dumbass carry a gun? I do not.

I do agree with NBK, saying you don't have to expect much better from Kerrey.
BUT: One thing matters: the message you give to the world (Europe, etc ;) ) :
You did NOT PROTEST against Bush by NOT voting for an (equally evil but) DIFFERENT man. You confirmed him, you back his politics!
I believe Bush is really a president to be ashame of. Not kicking his ass provokes the impression to foreigners, that the US people are no different in attitude/intelligence than their president - a very dangerous sign, really!!

4 years ago you didn't know the face of GW. This time you do. This time you're responsible for what will happen the next 4 years.

But who knows? Maybe GW shows us all, that the 3rd world war is a non-nuclear one and not nearly estinguishing man :)

My vote was for Bush because Kerry has consistently voted for extreme
gun control laws. Me and fellow NRA members were not fooled by the
photo of that elitist asshole going out hunting with his overpriced
shotgun !

I voted for Kerry, mainly because I think Bush is a moron. Kerry isn't much better but I think he can answer a question without using cue cards. I could go into any bar on mainstreet USA and pull out someone that could do a better job than most politicians I see. The smart people stay out of politics.
I'm really sick of Bush and his war on terrorism. Drunks drivers kill more people every six weeks than were killed in the WTC. Let's get a grip on reality. There are at least a dozen more issues more pressing than worrying about ragheads flying around.

The election was rigged by the Republican-controlled Diebold paperless electronic voting machines (and to a lesser extent using lies, intimidation, and wrongful voter
disenfranchisement)!! Here is a provisional list of links to the evidence:

http://www.linkcrusader.com there are over 80 Links to stories
about the recent Vote Fraud and the stolen election.

I listed some of the best links here:

http://blackboxvoting.org/ One of two investigations ongoing,
Donate to help them get Electronic Voting Machine activity logs
Democracy No Longer Exists in America - Voting without auditing.
(Are we insane?) Help to reclaim 'transparency' Show the Audit Logs

http://www.legitgov.org/pressrelease_stolen_election_2004_110404.html
Citizens for Legitimate Government - The second group conducting a
thorough investigation into 2004 Election Vote Fraud
BREAKING NEWS - Through chicanery, lies, deception, polling
intimidators (Brownshirts), Swift Boat Liars
for Rove, Diebold, touch screen 'voting' machines, Kenneth Blackwell,
Wally O'Dell, Therese LeGOPWhorePore, Dictator Bush now has 269
electoral votes, according to MSNBC. Why did exit polling indicate a
Kerry victory? The same reason that exit polling indicated a Gore
victory,
in 2000: because Gore won. Another Bush coup d'etat is underway...

http://www.senderberl.com/
*"SenderBerl is going to give you an important and grave
responsibility. We are going to beg you to contact every Senator,
Congressmen
(in the hope that some honest ones remain), every newspaper, every
Internet site, and anyone else you deem relevant to tell them how
to prove the election fraud." (Excellent & extensive compilation
of the HARD EVIDENCE)

http://onlinejournal.com/evoting/110504Chin/110504chin.html
*The stolen election of 2004: welcome back to hell - Nov. 5, How the
Bush Election Machines were fraudulenly manipulated in 2002 & 2004

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/stolennation.html
*A Stolen Nation - Excellent detailed summary, from the easily
manipulated Voting Machines to who comes up with the numbers (TV
Networks)

http://www.gregpalast.com/
Kerry Won - It's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the
deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John
Kerry.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1104-38.htm
The Ultimate Felony Against Democracy - Privatizing the Vote
Counters, Nov. 4 article on Commondreams.com by Thomas Hartmann

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/52213/1921
Florida Numbers compared to 2000 numbers - Something is wrong!
Detailed analysis by Daily Kos Weblog on Nov. 3

http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=980
More election theft stories - Large number of stories related to
election theft and vote fraud in Election 2004

http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp
Election Problems - 257 'problems' recorded in detail on 7 web pages
on Voters Unite!

http://www.opednews.com/kall_110404_outrage.htm
Election Was Rigged and Stolen! - Where is the Outrage? When Will
the Biggest Demonstrations in US History Happen?

Conservative/republicans are for our "Constitutional Republic".
Good Government; Protects lives and property by punishing evil doers. (You "Break the law" by doing something bad).

Liberal/Democrats are for mob rule(pure democracy).
Bad government; Takes your property and compels "performance". (You "Break the law" by not doing something they tell you to do).

I want to live my life and be left alone.

Don't you hate it when someone tries to makes you dance?

The odds are, you have a better chance with the Republicans at the helm.

Let it be known. Kerry is a closet homo from mass. Democrats are wrong on every issue; they are just straight stupid. If you voted Kerry you wasted your vote and your time in line. Bush won cause he is God's choice. God appoints anyman he wills and he has the power to send them to pasture if they displease him. I praise Tony blair, because he is the only leader in the world who has stood by "W", come hell or high water; it's hard to find a faithful man that never comprimises in this day. I believe what my grand father says " If Kerry is elected, God has given up on America and it will be destroyed!"

Oh and another thing, America is not going in a good direction. We kill unborn children, and we don't kill the wicked, we just give them time in prison to continue there evil ways, even praising the wicked who are free. Also we are extremely sexually immoral, being the leading producer of pornography and a majority of marriages in America result in devorce due to adultury.

" In the place of justice-wickedness was there."

Let's not keep our minds so... slammed shut. Kerry might be a fine president when all the shit is taken care of overseas and all he need do is coast thru and shake a few hands and kiss babies. It'll be congress that won't allow him to pooch up the ass of the American people and prepare for UN insertion.

I voted for Bush. Let him finish what he set out to do else it's all for nothing. I'll vote for Mega/NBK in 2008. (God, it even SOUNDS better than Kerry/Edwards or Bush/ Cheney). :D

BTW, Blair is a good chap.

I think it's a crying shame they couldn't wheel out Nixon as a candidate. Anyone who watches Futurama will be familiar with his character in the show. If he were really like that, I think he's made a bodacious prez.

"Nixon's back!!!" *stamp, crush*

What about Clinton? Everyone can identify with the guy who just wants to get his dick sucked. At least screwing his staff meant he had no time to go stomping round the would trying to start armageddon.

I voted straight Republican, I'm not arguing politics here, I think Bush was better and that's that. Whether you hate him or not, what's done is done, and I would like to see a whole lot of fuckers keep their promise of moving out of America since Bush did win :D.

Yeah I voted too but this was the first time where Itried to find the lesser of two evils. Bush is retarded, Kerry's seriously confused and both of their organizations are filled with compulsive liars that raise no relevant issues ( Karl Rove is the master of this and the dems cant find an oppnent worthy of his bullshit)
Politicians have always lied cheated stole etc...When did it get this bad?

..and I would like to see a whole lot of fuckers keep their promise of moving out of America since Bush did win :D.


Maybe thats actually what won him the election.... everybody got sick of those people shit...so they voted for bush just so they'd leave them alone.

The election was was rigged!. Make no mistake, it was another "stolen" election, this time due not to "chads", but to lies, intimidation, fraudulent voter disenfranchisements, vital information likely to affect voting withheld from the public or played down, bribery and corruption, and (I suspect, and most importantly) doctored Diebold voting machines.The exit polls, which clearly favored Kerry, have never been apparently so wrong before, especially in the crucial "battleground" states like Ohio, Florida, Pennsylvania, where they heavily favored Kerry.

But, Kerry and his aides are not crying foul simply because they do not have the time and resources to conduct a thorough investigation, and there are obstacles to investigation, in the way of lack of a paper trail and of access to the unencrypted source code of the Diebold machine programs, owned by prominent Republicans. Besides, the contradiction of the official vote results by the exit polls, and anecdotal individual stories of voter intimidation (from voting or registration) and fraudulent deregistration, while strongly indicative of election fraud, are not enough, because of the margin of Bu$h's apparent win including in Ohio and Florida, and because they are not indisputable "official" information.

Such a relatively heavy (by American standards) voter turnout, over 60%, could not possibly have genuinely favored the Republican Party. Wny were OSCE election observers from Europe denied access to Republican-controlled voting precincts in Florida, the staff of which were overheard to describe the observers as "dangerous"?

An independent voter organization a few days ago made 1,300 FOIA requests for the electronic voting transaction logs of the Diebold voting machines, the largest FOIA request made in the history of the Act. However, it remains to be seen whether these records will have any evidence of electronic tampering, in the form of recorded actual votes being different from voters' recorded intentions when voting and wrongly favoring the Republicans, if indeed both are recorded. Tests of the voting machines have shown that they are easily hacked into, in order to record false extra votes, and possibly to change votes already made.

But the most telling proof would come only if the unencrypted source code of the Diebold machine programs could be examined, for such things as an instruction either changing every twentieth (or so) Democratic vote into a Republican vote, or else changing every tenth Democratic vote to a third-party or informal vote, which would be the easiest sort of rigging to do. Because the Republicans who own Diebold have refused access by auditors to the unencrypted source code, the only way this could happen is if an expert software hacker is able to access and then decrypt the encrypted programs. I wonder if at least the encrypted Diebold programs could be obtained under a FOIA request - has anyone tried?

There has been a huge upsurge in American inquiries about emigating to Canada and elsewhere, since 3 November, Canadian immigration officials have reported, including on their website. If enough Democrats, Socialists, Greens etc. left for Canada, the loss of the country's conscience, combined with 4 more years of Bu$h's gross political and economic and fiscal mismanagement with a compliant Congress, and who knows how many years thereafter of whatever Republican lackey of big business then wins Diebold-rigged elections, will ensure that the U.S.A. heads for a rapid economic and social collapse, and in its wake a violent revolution by the unemployed, homeless, and dispossessed, who will by then be in the majority.

If Americans reading this are entitled by birth or recent ancestry or marriage to permanent residence in another country, or can qualify for immigration on the basis of skills or the capital for setting up a business, my advice is to sell up and go there as soon as possible, while the U.S. $ is still worth something (it has devalued markedly since Bu$h became president, for example by 75% against the New Zealand $), or at least send as much of your money as possible out of the U.S.A. and into foreign banks and securities. Even another year may be too late. People who are of ages making them liable for conscription should get out by June 2005, when the draft is set to start.

There will not be much left of the U.S.A. after another 4 years of Bu$h, and especially his economic and fiscal mismanagement, with increased Republican control of both Houses of Congress. On present form, I am predicting a spectacular economic collapse in the U.S.A. within a year. The U.S. internal budget deficit, which is growing at millions of $s a day with no end in sight, is being financed almost entirely by foreign bankers,mostly Chinese and Japanese, through their purchases of U.S. Treasury Bonds (China and Japan having enormous foreign-currency reserves). Fully 6% of all bank deposits in the world are are going into financing the U.S. Government's budget deficit! The same bankers are also covering, at least indirectly, the trade deficit.

At some point, probably earlier rather than later now that the bankers can see no end in sight for the deficit, and possibly as early as April 2005, these foreign bankers (being the prudent money managers they are, protecting their shareholders' and depositors' interests) will decide that the U.S. Government cannot service any additional debt, and will "pull the plug" by refusing any more financing. The immediate result will be either massive default on the public debt (remember what happened in Argentina a few years ago), or Federal spending committments like public servants' and military personnel salaries and social security going unpaid, or a combination. This will, in turn, also because of the huge trade deficit, result in massive capital flight from the U.S.A. which will bring about a 1929-style collapse on Wall Street, and massive devaluation of the U.S. $, to a greater extent than its 70% or so devaluation in the last few years. You can expect to see widespread rioting in the streets, probably in the summer of 2005. That will be the end of the road for Bu$h and Cheney, especially if also things go bad in Iraq as looks likely - they will certainly be impeached or recalled, even by the Republican-controlled Houses of Congress.

It will take this sort of disaster to awaken American voters to how they have been conned. As Clinton once remarked, "It's the economy, stupid!". Any voters who did not see the unprecedented, enormous, unrepayable, U.S. budget deficit, and the trade deficit, run up entirely by Bu$h from 2001 so as to provide massive tax cuts for his rich crooked cronies who financed his election campaign, and vote accordingly, must have been blind. Along with outsourcing of many decent manufacturing and service-sector jobs (the replacement "jobs?" boasted of by Bu$h are mostly either in the military, or else McDonalds-type jobs of only a few hours per week, despite which the holders are counted as "employed" in statistics), homelessness, and the raiding of the social security fund.

Iraq, terrorism, and "moral" issues like gay marriage and abortion, which affect relatively very few people anyway, are just "red herrings", introduced specifically to obscure the real issues facing the country, and to justify introducing a police state and suppressing basic civil rights. And, of course, during the election campaign, Bu$h said absolutely nothing about his plans to introduce a military draft, the organization for which is quietly being put in place to start in June 2005, of people aged between 18 and 34, to cover personnel shortages resulting from Afghanistan and his mess in Iraq.

The following are links to the evidence, so far, of rigging:

http://www.linkcrusader.com - over 80 Links to stories about the recent Vote Fraud and the stolen election.

I listed some of the best links here:

http://blackboxvoting.org/ One of two investigations ongoing, Donate to help them get Electronic Voting Machine activity logs Democracy No Longer Exists in America - Voting without auditing. (Are we insane?) Help to reclaim 'transparency' Show the Audit Logs

http://www.legitgov.org/pressrelease_stolen_election_2004_110404.html
Citizens for Legitimate Government - The second group conducting a thorough investigation into 2004 Election Vote Fraud BREAKING NEWS - Through chicanery, lies, deception, polling intimidators (Brownshirts), Swift Boat Liars for Rove, Diebold, touch screen 'voting' machines, Kenneth Blackwell, Wally O'Dell, Therese LeGOPWhorePore, Why did exit polling indicate a Kerry victory? The same reason that exit polling indicated a Gore victory, in 2000: because Gore won. Another Bu$h coup d'etat.

http://www.senderberl.com/
*"SenderBerl is going to give you an important and grave responsibility. We are going to beg you to contact every Senator, Congressmen (in the hope that some honest ones remain), every newspaper, every Internet site, and anyone else you deem relevant to tell them how to prove the election fraud." (Excellent & extensive compilation of the HARD EVIDENCE)

http://onlinejournal.com/evoting/110504Chin/110504chin.html
*The stolen election of 2004: welcome back to hell - Nov. 5, How the Bu$h Election Machines were fraudulenly manipulated in 2002 & 2004

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/stolennation.html
*A Stolen Nation - Excellent detailed summary, from the easily manipulated Voting Machines to who comes up with the numbers (TV Networks)

http://www.gregpalast.com/
Kerry Won - It's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1104-38.htm
The Ultimate Felony Against Democracy - Privatizing the Vote Counters, Nov. 4 article on Commondreams.com by Thomas Hartmann

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/52213/1921
Florida Numbers compared to 2000 numbers - Something is wrong! Detailed analysis by Daily Kos Weblog on Nov. 3

http://inn.globalfreepress.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=980
More election theft stories - Large number of stories related to election theft and vote fraud in Election 2004

http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp
Election Problems - 257 'problems' recorded in detail on 7 web pages on Voters Unite!

http://www.opednews.com/kall_110404_outrage.htm
Election Was Rigged and Stolen! - Where is the Outrage? When Will the Biggest Demonstrations in US History Happen?

@ TNP
Oh and another thing, America is not going in a good direction. We kill unborn children, and we don't kill the wicked, we just give them time in prison to continue there evil ways, even praising the wicked who are free. Also we are extremely sexually immoral, being the leading producer of pornography and a majority of marriages in America result in divorce due to adultury.

I understand what you mean, but liberation is the only way to go.
I live in The Netherlands, where gay-marriage is allowed, abortion is allowed, and sex is just normal, and we talk about it, a pair of tits on TV at 18:00 is not blurred. (No sexual thing, just a shower scene).
Here however, MUCH LESS teenagers are pregnant than in America, the simple fact is, if you do not talk about it, teenagers start to experiment with it, and due to a lack of knowledge, or no possibility to buy condoms, they 'get' pregnant.
Being free in this kind of things, because you want to prevent it is a contradiction, but it works!

Women I know worked as teacher on a school in England, a school where you actually live. (I don't know the name of it in English; I would guess cost-school)
This school was for girls of 13-14 years old girls, and was very prudish, as whole England was at that time (~15 years ago). It was hard to find a girl out there who was still virgin!!! According to her, there was 'screwing all over the place' because it was forbidden!

The same with softdrugs. Here I can buy (if I would smoke, which I actually hate!!) weed, no problem. In France however, they restrict it very tightly, and more teenagers in France use drugs then here! (I don't know data of America) The step from weed to coke of heroin is there even easier, since you cannot get coke and heroin here in coffeeshops.

A Dutch swimmer, Inge de Bruin (gold on 50m free on the OG) was in America for training, and after the first training she went into the ladies' shower, undressed herself, and started a shower. The comment of an American co-lady-swimmer: 'you're naked!!' Inge: 'doh! I'm taking a shower!!' The American girl had NEVER seen a naked woman before....

How are you ever going to prevent if sexual perverts if you cannot even talk about it?? Remember that America is the largest supplier of porn vid's, and so on, and so on.
I agree completely that this is NOT good, I am Christian myself, (a liberal one)
but being prudish is NO way.

Another thing is: What the fuck (excuse) is so Christian about GW? The most important law of the Bible is (IMHO): "Love the one next to you as yourself", which in MY eyes means a social policy, where the people who suffer have access to food and medication, and ABSOLUTELY not something like: "save yourself"
Just a remember to the 4th commandment: Thy shall not kill. 30.000 Iraq people were killed in Iraq, 1000 Americans so far.
The worst thing of it all is, that he has never excused him to the families of the killed Iraqi's, nor the families of the Americans.

The 4th commandment is thou shalt not murder. Not kill big difference king David killed thousands, not just soldiers either and he was one of the most righteous men in the bible.

To steer this conversation back on topic, let me bring a subject to light to clear something up which has recently been brought to my attention:

If you happen to be a convicted felon in the USA, best check with the state that you live in to see if you are legally able to vote.

For the longest time I was under the impression that I was no longer allowed due to my convictions at an earlier age. MY state (Georgia) instantly restores your RIGHT to vote once you are no longer incarcerated or are under the guidance of parole or probation. If you have never voted before, this means you must register to vote (and recieve confirmation, to be safe) at least 1 month before the date of a presidential election).

As I stated previously, I voted for "Dubya"... My old voter registration card was enough at the polls (I am an ex-con. I voted for Bush Senior previous to my "offenses" :rolleyes: ).

I cannot stress enough the need to vote if you are able, Democrats and Republicans, alike.

I thought my right to vote was forever gone but this law was turned over recently (in 2000 I believe).

To all who know me, I just needed to clear this up. To all who just don't know whether or not they are elligible, check it out. I was pleasantly surprised. (also very relieved our "monkey feurer" beat the "rights rapist").

BTW, the election wasn't rigged. It was won merely by the fact that more simians in America displayed an act of conscious thought more than the seemingly neccesary fecal (and war medals) flinging...

It was the fags that won the election for Bush (unintentionally). With all the "all gay, all day" stuff going on it motivated people to get to the polls and put the fags in their place. Nobody really likes all that diversity crap they keep pushing down our throats. Once that curtain closes we can be our true selves :)

Hey child of bodom, you call yourself a Christian, How can you justify government directed social policy, when government can't give ANY money away that it hasn't forcably taken from someone else? What if government decides that abortion is a justifiable program for the poor?
As an identifiable christian, youv'e just cost me money and made me a part of murder. Is that anyway to spread the cause of Christ?
If you, yourself, give YOUR cash to a cause, and the cause goes down a rat hole, you can withdraw your support. Not so with government programs.
The safest and most effective way to "help the poor" is for you to directly help your neighbor. That way you have direct control and if the poor person is poor because of his own actions(drugs, booze, or sloth) you can pull the support and get his sorry butt moving in the right direction. If he or she doesn't like the coersion, they can stay poor.
Here is a principle; What you subsidize, you get more of.
Subsidize unwed mothers, and you get more bastards.
Subsidize sloth, and you get more wino's and bums.
Subsidize 3rd world dictators, and you get more Presidents for life.
Subsidize wheat growers, and you soon have so much that the market collapses, and the only farmers that can stay in business are the inefficiant ones that are sucking on "Uncle Sams tit".

P.S. If you want to end the endless famines in Africa, arm the unarmed side. Nobody will starve and after they get tired of killing one another, they'll work out some way to live in peace.

Hello Shooter!

The goverment does not steal from me when it uses it's money for social programs. I HELP my neighbour when he/she is in trouble, but it is also a TASK of the government to take care of the poor. Of course people must be stimulated to go to work, but as government you have the responsibility to take care of your people.

Abortion is a hard issue. In America, people who can efford it, can do an abortion. People who are poor, can't. If you are (as government) agains abortion, then forbid it. Don't create a gap between rich and poor. This is a very tricky subject, and I haven't really made up my mind. It has 2 sides...

Subsidize wheat growers, and you soon have so much that the market collapses, and the only farmers that can stay in business are the inefficiant ones that are sucking on "Uncle Sams tit".

Unfortunatly you are incredibly right. Subsididations are a pest for the marked, and for the 3rd world. The price of suger (for example) is on the world marked a LOT lower than here, more than 3 times. This way 3rd world country's never make a change to make a running economy. Unfortunatly, 40 BILLION euro's are spend each year on farmer's subsidiations in the EU, let alone America, what is, sad enough, even worse.

Shooter, you seem to be a conservative Christian, (I don't know many) What is you opinion on the piece I wrote on sexual freedom?

P.S. If you want to end the endless famines in Africa, arm the unarmed side. Nobody will starve and after they get tired of killing one another, they'll work out some way to live in peace.

A better way is to install strong leaders there, which eliminate corruption by putting everyone in jail who is corrupt. Giving people weapons to kill each other is equal to murder.

Hi C.O.B. Sometimes it is very difficult to see Gods point of view. A serious born again Christian can read it, believe it, and a lot of the time live it. A lot of us grew up in circumstances that programed us to think certain ways that are the antithisis of Christianity.

I was brought up a Catholic. At the wrong age, I was told by my Mom that I was worthless in the sight of woman and she pittied the poor girl that I married. This was in responce to something that a friend did, but I was involved in. What she was telling me was Catholic dogma(she was taught school by the nuns). From that day on I became introverted. When I finally left home(joined the Navy), I subconciously desided to prove Mom wrong. 45 or 50 women later I realized I wasn't a piece of shit. In fact I could bed down almost any woman I wanted, married or single. Then I saw the light. I lived the sexual freedom gig, and while it seemed grand at the time, now I see that I hurt a lot of people.

I still dream of what it could of been like seeing a naked female for the first time on my wedding night, and imprinting on that wife, instead of shacking up before marrage and having wedding day more of a legal formality instead. Females still take a liking to me and I sometimes find it hard to say no. Especialy after my wifes been bitchy for a month. (I haven't cheated on her and I won't, but I'm stuck with these memories of the others and you only remember the good stuff). If I could flush the memories, I would.

If I had read my Bible and took Gods word for it, I wouldn't be in this fix. Well one night after a party my wife wife was busting chops with another couple and it came out that she is just like me! Now that the shoe is on the other foot, I find it quite distasteful. Who did she DO. My nieghbor? My friend? The guy who just delivered the mail? If she feels that way towards me I realize that life is not nearly so sweet as it could be for either of us. I would like to start over, but like suicide, once you do it, it's to late!

The other side of sexual "freedom" is that it causes a lot of women to murder their babys. I can't even imagine what life would be like with that kind of baggage! An old friend, who is a hopeless alcoholic, confessed to me that she had had 4 abortions. She would kill herself, but she is afraid of hell, and SHE is an Atheist!

An unborn baby is like a brand new Super computer. It just needs programing! If someone told you he would give you 10 million dollars to bring 400 oak trees to an island 10 miles offshore, but you could only use a dingy, could you not just bring a large bag of Acorns to meet the challange?

I LOVE women, and there's nothing like having one rap her legs around you, but I wish I had that focused excitment for my wife alone.

About the strong leader thing; What kind of strong leader? A benevalent Dictator? Force never changes hearts. It may change actions for a while, but the minute that force is lifted the carnage starts. (Yugoslavia, Belgin Congo, Angola,etc.)

This is one of the many problems with Islam. Like bad law, it compels performance. (In Christianity the punishment usually comes after you die. It's Heaven for believers, Hell for rejectors. God said it would be Paridise, but He doesn't go into detail).

It seems the anti-Christians want consolidated power, while Christians want to "separate" power (sound familiar).

The Bible said that there would come a time when no one would be able to buy or sell without the "mark of the Beast". People who believe Gods words recognize that we now have the tecnology to impliment that. Look at the UPC and you can see the 666 there. If you doupt it, read up on the guy who invented it. He supposedly did it that way on purpose to jazz the Christians as a little joke. Now it's world wide and here to stay. Couple that with a DNA code and put it on the "Very Chip"(an almost TOTALLY secure form of I.D.) and go to electronic money, and you now have a way to control(and exclude) peoples economic activity.

In America we have an excruciatingly thourogh court system. About 1% of people who deserve the death penelty, get it. That's because our Founding Fathers realized that Gov.'s and bureucracies make lots of mistakes. They have to find out; Is this the guy? Did he really plan it? etc, Not so with honest men who are armed. A guy with a gun coming in your window at 3 in the morning has been ID'd, found guilty, and executed. There is no doupt of his guilt and you've done no wrong, and society is better off.

All these principles are in both the Old and New Testaments.

What can be said?

Is God unjust? Certainly not! It is man who is unjust! Man has been given dominion over the whole earth and yet he sits back and lets the righteous suffer and the wicked go free; doing nothing he calls God unjust and accuses the Holy One of perverting justice.

The truth is that the wicked will be judged justly and punished and the righteous, they will go free. To prove my point open up your history books; its all there. Take a good look and consider, the nation who does what is right, who punishes the wicked and protects the innocent, who in a word gives glory to God that nation will prosper, but the nation and the people who do not punish the wicked, who kill the innocent, who turn to idols, who are filled with lust so that even men commit indecent acts with men and women with women, they devour the poor, and they hate wisdom; turning even the truth into a lie, that nation God will destroy. Look at the roman empire they turned to many evil ways including homosexuality and pedophilia, they denied there evil hearts nothing that there eyes desired, they became a nation of slavery. For all this they came to nothing. However because God is merciful he did not destroy them all, but saved a remnant for his glory. Britain can easily be called the old roman empire for they are from that remnant.

But back to the U.S. I think America is getting close to a point of judgement because of her many sins. It will be a sad day, and what a tragedy to think it could all have been avoided with a little fear of the Living God.

This thread is turning into a religious argument instead of who went out
and voted. Once again, I voted for Bush because Kerry favors gun
control. As for the religious part, always remember that God gave us free
will. Don't blame God for the faults of mankind !

Shooter3, you still wonder what it would have been like to see a naked
woman the 1st time on your wedding night ? Is that a joke ? I've never
been married(Thank GOD !) but I'm still mesmerized by the naked woman
in my presence. Grow up !

I'm all with Shooter3 on the only wanting to see my wife naked, I'm not married yet, but I've got the girl, and it's a shame i've seen and done so much shit with others outside of marriage.

Hi TMP, Politics and religion are very closly related things. You vote your world view. your world view comes from your beliefs. Your beliefs are your Religion. EVERYONE has a Religion.

Atheism is a Religion. It's "selfish" in that the highest authority is oneself. If you do what is right in your own eyes, you must live with the consiquences whatever they may be. If you get AIDS, do it on your own dime. Don't expect the rest of us to pay for it. If you murder someone, don't complain about it to me or the hangman.

I voted for George, because of a lot of things. #1 is probably that this next Pres. is going to be picking several Supreme Court Justuses. I for one am sick of the liberal Court doing "what is right in their own eyes". Their Constitutional duty is to apply the Law as it conforms to the Constitution.

Pat Buchanan said it well when he called it the "Culture War". There is a minority in this country who have worked their way into possitions of power. They use that power to make laws on their own, bypassing the people and the Congress. One simple example; A judge in Kansas(I think) desided that the public school system wasn't modern enough, so he ordered a HUGE tax increase to rebuild the school system in Kansas City(Again I think. This happened 15 or 20 years ago). The Constitution is quite clear on this,"ALL money bills will originate in the House of Representitives". All the Appeals Courts upheld this mandate and the taxpayers had to foot the bill for this project. The end result of all this was that the grade average accually WENT DOWN!

In my town the schoolboard had the BALLS to try to tax us directly! We shot that down, but it was a fight and a big waste of time for us. The court should have just said "unconstitutional".

"TMP. Send me a hundred dollars, cause I said so". How does that sound to you. You could rightly tell me to shove it.

How about if I said the same thing, but this time I have taken your means of self defense and put a shotgun to your head. You wouldn't like it, but you would pay!

This is what Government does. That is why we must at all cost retain the restraints on Gov'n't called the Constitution! And vote for people that most respect and govern by that Constitution.

That's an interesting subject you've brought up Shooter.

What you describe would be very romantic. But consider the flipside: Would either partner be more likely to stray, because they wonder what else is out there. If they've "been there, done that", then they have (likely) settled on a partner because of logical reason - they know this is what they want.

Also, perhaps you arrived at your wife because of process of elimination?

I'm not sure I read your story correctly, but you only recently found out about your wife's sexual past? If so, I find it strange that you'd marry someone you didn't know completely, and that's a pretty big topic.

TMP, surely you can see where he's coming from? If/when you settle down with someone for good, someone you're fiercely protective and posessive about, wouldn't it be better to *know* that the lips she's kissing you with haven't been around someone elses' cock. Or you're going down on her, and you know that someone with a cheesy dick hasn't shot jizz right there.

Or, you say to your partner, "let's try such-and-such", they reply that they tried that with so-and-so and didn't like it. Won't make you feel especially great, you're going to feel left out if nothing else.

That's what I find most disgusting about adultery. People changing partners is fine, not nice for some involved, but it's the way things are. Cock-hopping is inexcusable though. If people are going to fuck with peoples' lives then they should make a firm decision.

Whether it's practical though... You might be more likely to rush into marriage because you really want to poke a girl (conscious or subconcious). Also, if you've only been with one partner, you're more likely to tolerate shit and abuse from them. When someone with more experience would have realised that they're being used, deserve better and thrown in the towel.

Obviously everyone is different. Some people don't care how many people their loved one has been with, or done whatever. Thinking (probably more rationally), that time and a showers removes the dirt. Some people's concept of "dirt" won't be purely literal though.

Hi Anthony,

On the basest level you are very correct. Who wants to find out that their wife went alone to a gang bang(mine didn't go that far). I was more thinking about the other side of it though. How can one get pissed off if he was doing the same thing? Nobody wins. You both wind up used and abused.

This is unscientific, but I have noticed a lot of squabbles start by one party compairing their spouse to someone they've already had. In my case I had to make that gal like me or it didn't count (It's too easy to get laid and just walk away). Don't get me wrong, I never left any of my girls on anything but good terms. I wouldn't doupt if I am being compared with a lot of other spouses as the perfect guy. Of course I was on my best behavier. When you meet a girl for the first time she is also on her best. Most of mine were between 16 and 25. How can my wife who is now 45 possibly compete with those memories? It takes a woman at least 6 monthes to get over any obsessions. I never hung around that long, so my memories are of beautiful, young, firm brested girls who are always on time and never say no.

Trust me, I wish I could flush that from my mind.

When I got serious with my wife we agreed our pasts didn't matter(aparently it did) and had a small confession session. I said I had more than 5. She said she only "did it" 12 times. Haw Haw. I'm not bitter about this, but I could probably have delt with it better at the time.

I have nobody to blame but me, God tried to tell me, but I wasn't listening to Him at that time.

It's very easy to promote a puritan way of life after you have had a lot of sex with a lot of girls, isn't it, shooter3? You should at least avoid spreading puritan ideals if you weren't a puritan for a good part of your life.

Not only sex; you also consumed LSD too, by what I can see by reading one of your old posts. Interesting to see that people concerned with "righteous" lifestyles as adults where the ones who were not very righteous during their youth. They try to make people behave more "righteously" in order to wash away their feelings of guilt for not being "righteous" during their youth. In short, they commit a misdeed and try to discipline others. Only "democracy" and the mass media are capable of matching such hypocrisy, I think.

I wouldn't call it hypocracy. In proverbs 22:3 it says "The prudent sees the evil and hides himself, but the naive go on, and are punished for it." There was an old saying that I can't quote exactly, but it had something to do with "the most ardent foes of prostitution are ex hookers".

Quite a few of the most "fun things" in life are either very dangerous or fun only for awhile.(Explosives being one. I'm real lucky to have gotten this far unscathed). Ask that guy who lost his hands if this is still fun. I'm alive and in one piece because I'm VERY CAUTIOUS!!! I don't make pound sized batches of AP.

I am curious about the LSD post. I honestly don't remember. Pot, Heroin, speed maybe, but I never did LSD. Can you direct me to it please.

One last question and think about it a while before you answer; Would you rather have your 15 year old daughter spend two months all alone at Club Med with Jim Baker( the telepreacher who was caught in an affair with his secretary) or Bob Guccioni.

This proverb isn't an excuse for your actions. It doesn't say "the prudent does evil and then, moved by his need to avoid feelings of guilt, tell others that they shouldn't do evil." Ideas are to be written with sheer rationalization and direct argumentation, not with proverbs, poems, songs or whatever else that can be interpreted as one wants. I hate pretty words (like most of the stuff said by politicians and the mass media) or obscure words having multiple meanings (like most of the stuff found in the bible) because they are a powerful weapons in the hands of liars (usually power-hungry or money-addicted bastards: politicians, businessmen, scientists, psychologists, Public Relations men, priests, school and university professors, etc.).

I don't have a daughter and I don't know who is Bob Guccioni. I'm sure he is, like all other people in this world, not worth a shit and only deserving of receiving a bullet in his head.

If I had a daughter I would prefer to see her dead (prefereably before being born - aborption) instead of alive in a world full of shit where individual freedom is swept away by moronic governments elected by conservative idiots or mentally-troubled leftists, while no one notices it because of propaganda and fancy talk.

The LSD post:

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?p=55094#post55094

Shooter3, converts are indeed zealots and the obsession with their
newfound "cause" often borders on the fanatical - sometimes to the
point of trying to impose their will on others. This doesn't work with
me.

As for naked women, I'm just as mesmerized and fascinated every
time as if it was the 1st time. It's always special. That's just my
point of view and I hope I never lose that feeling. When it comes
to previous sexual partners a person can never truly be sure unless
that partner is a virgin.

Activist judges are a huge problem. You're right about that case
being in Kansas City, where a liberal judge ordered that all property
taxes be doubled in order to supplement the poorer districts at the
expense of all property owners. Of course, the grades didn't improve
once again proving that throwing money at the problem never helps.
Activist judges often act like little dictators and pull an end run
around the constitution to impose their will and make life miserable
for the rest of us. In notorious liberal strongholds like California and
where I live(Maryland), these asshole judges try to shove their
agenda up the people's ass. I love it when their decisions are struck
down by higher courts.

Sarevoc, You've got some memory! That tread was a lttle bizar. That LSD thing was a euphamistic way of saying that Samosa had better run, cause the guys in white coats are coming.

TMP Your lucky to be in Maryland. You have the "Ordnance Museum" in Aberdine!

I discus and sometimes argue, but like I said before you can't MAKE anyone believe anything. I was talking about Nuclear power once and a guy chimed in that to solve the energy problems, all be had to do was put generators on the axils of cars. Just start the motor to get things moving, switch to the generator, turn off the motor, and your off running on the gen.!!!!! AND I COULDN'T TALK HIM OUT OF IT!!!!!!

Sarevock Shooter3 is not being a hippocrite, is it hippocritical when someone who loses their fingers playing with AP warns everyone about how dangerous it is and how to not treat it like a toy?

An action that is dangerous to your health can't be compared to an action that is (depending on your opinions) immoral. It would be better to compare this to a drunkard who, after having a lot of fun (and problems) because of alcohol, stops drinking and starts to push people into abstinence. An ex-drunkard will never have the right to talk people into abstinence. Just because he gave up alcohol, this doesn't mean his past life is to be pardoned. A murderer, for example, after killing someone, is forever a murderer. If the murderer decides not to kill again, he is still a murderer and he will never have the right to tell people that they shouldn't kill each other because he is a murderer and nothing is going to change what he already did.

Accidents with explosives due to careless handling, on the other hand, are always to be warned to others, no matter who had the accident. What is safety for one, is safety for others (e.g. both person A and B don't want to be ripped to pieces). What is moral for one, may not be moral to others (e.g. person A thinks fags should have the right to suck cocks and ejaculate inside each other's rectums, while person B thinks fags should be eliminated and their families should pay the money spent on the bullets that killed them). Safety (at least in matters of hypocrisy) is more concrete and simple than morals, therefore comparing safety and sexual life (in matters of an action being hypocritical or not) isn't a good thing to do. Things like sexual life, alcoholism, drug use, etc., that are abstract and complex (at least in matters of hypocrisy) should be compared (in matters of an action being hypocritical or not) only to other things that are also abstract, complex and don't have a clear right and wrong.

"Things like sexual life, alcoholism, drug use, etc., that are abstract and complex "

Abstract and complex? I wouldn't say those were abstract, and certainly not complex.

Aids = death for sure. Passing out at the wheel and driving into a crowd = death. Take LSD and try to kill your friends Mom, your friend(also high) puts 5 rounds of 380 into your head, thats pretty damn concrete. Thats exactly what happened to friend when I was just out of high school.

And who says getting plastered is fun? If your an introvert a little boose can loosen you up. A lot of booze will just drive people away. Suppose you get lucky while while your all boozed up. It isn't even half as much fun as it would have been if you had all your senses intact.

A shipmate of mine, who was a big time drinker, picked up, and made it with a transvestite and didn't even know it 'til he woke up the next morning!! He'll never forget that! (I know WE never let him forget it. HaHa).

On second thoughts, I think you are right. Forget what I said.

http://www.harfordhistory.net/apg.htm http://www.ordmusfound.org/