Inspired by Axt, I have taken the sodium nitronate synthesis to the enxt level, experienceing runaway reactions and what not.

For the full details on the synthesis http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/nanitronate.html
picture has more than needed to show the point but I cropped it and lost dramtic quality, its only 8kb!
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/431717/reaction_lighting_up.JPG

Thats it just lighing up eg; The unreacted NM burning because oft he heat being produced nothing major.
But when you get a friggin runaway and a fire ball 1ft from your head! Thats something major!

http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/Runawayreaction.MPG - movie of the first runaway. Didn't get the fireball at the start like what happened but its still cool!

http://www.geocities.com/blindreeper_chemistry/reactiongoingup.MPG - This was the big ass fireball I got on tape! Adding NM to solid NaOH is not the way to go about making it!

Right click and save target as on those movies.

I have yet to test film and take pictures of explosive properties but, I have done 3g in a a a paper tube which resulted in a nice boom. Not loud enough for a detonation though. I will test 0.5g AP to initiate 5g nitronate. Maybe it will serve as a good primary, thats what I am trying to find out. I test it detonating 100g APPN soon.

Also I have yet to test other nitronates such as potassium, magnesium, calcium and maybe barium or strontium. Nothing better than toxic, flammable explosives!

Have you seen this thread? http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=1089

Marvin thinks the nitronate cant be made through this reaction, his chemical knowledge far exceeds mine but I have the practical experiance and im not so sure for these reasons.

The fact that dissolving the salt in water will decompose/react further with it suggesting that its not totally decomposed through the water during the reaction (water can be seen floating up from the reacting salt). Im also not sure, but leaving it for extended time increases its burn rate considerably whether this is due to simple drying or partial decomposition to sodium fulminate (confirming nitronate) is unknown.

But whatever the case you probably found out that you MUST use excess cold NM or you will get a fire, I found that out the hard way also. Its also probably a good idea to react the prills the filter quickly through a cloth so that to keep it away from the water floating on top of the NM so as to not decompose it.

Im suprised that beaker can take it. Pyrex makes a solid product.

I wouldn't know what pyrex makes, its a bomex beaker :P They are essentially the same; both are borosillicate. But Yes the borosillicate glass take a bit of thermal shock.

In regards to Marvin, I think practial work will be more conclusive than theory will ever be.

"Its also probably a good idea to react the prills the filter quickly through a cloth so that to keep it away from the water floating on top of the NM so as to not decompose it."

I do not entirely understand that Axt, can you please re-word it?
As for properties I found it not to be soluable in acetone, which i wash the product with in the end to get rid of the excess NM.
I used excess NM in another experiment and got no fire so that much is true, but it seems having an excess of NM makes the fire start in one of my cases. The only thing burning is the NM no?

Also Axt, did you ever get a reaction as violent as the second movie I posted? I thought it was unusually violent. As we speak I am making a drop test rid, a smallsih one but it will do for my nitronate experients.
I hope I don't get busted for attaching a 300kb file, but geocities will un-doubtably screw itself so here is a movie of the most violent reaction I got on tape.

The second "the" should be "then", what I mean to say is that some water will dissolve in the NM but a lot will form on the surface of the solution, you dont want to let this slowly filter down through your formed salts so filter quickly through a cloth or just decant it off the top.

Excess NM means the reaction must heat up a lot more until it flares up, that why excess is used, it takes more energy to heat it. Yes I did amuse myself once by pouring NM over NaOH with results simular to yours.

Looks interesting,
hehe, bugger making the Nitronate, the runaway reaction is fun enough by itself :)

Finding some NM might be next week's adventure methinks

Try dissolving your NaOH in anhydrous alcohol and then react it with the nitromethane. That should keep most of the water out and the reaction under control.

Beware, this is my theory. Hasn't been tested.

You might want to look into finding a better web host for those movies Blindreeper, the GeoCities isn't handling the data transfer

Anhydrous alchohol? Eg methylated spirits? I don't think quite anhydrous though...
I tried using the NaOH in a strong solution, the layers sepertated out and after much stirring they reacted with boiling and the was no precipitate because the nitronate was dissolved.

Zeitgeist, don't tell me about web hosting, I don't see you posting anything new so stop complaining about geocities. Ok we have established its crap I am trying to present usefull informationa nd you tell me its not available, oh no you have to wait an hour for the site to be restored :mad:

I tried using the NaOH in a strong solution, the layers sepertated out and after much stirring they reacted with boiling and the was no precipitate because the nitronate was dissolved.


Are you referring to a solution of NaOH in ethyl alcohol? If yes, have you tried letting the alcohol boil off? At room temperature ofcourse, considering it's volatility.

A strong solution of water. I don't know when I will be able to test the alcohol method because I am away for the next week as of saturday :cool:

The books Ive read agree closely on the subject.

The texbook method of making sodium methylenenitronate is to add nitromethane to a solution of a sodium alkoxide in the alcohol. The dried product contains alcohol of crystalisation and is reportedly very unstable thermally/chemically towards fulminates and other products as Ive posted in sciencemadness and previosly here.

What you are making in aq solution might turn out to be useful, but it almost certainly isnt sodium methylenenitronate.

In regards to Marvin, I think practial work will be more conclusive than theory will ever be.

Right, he has no concept of "practical work..."

Zeitgeist, don't tell me about web hosting, I don't see you posting anything new so stop complaining about geocities. Ok we have established its crap I am trying to present usefull informationa nd you tell me its not available, oh no you have to wait an hour for the site to be restored

This is an attitude I frequently see here that pisses me off. "You aren't an ancient regular, so run off with your advice and fuck it." Grow up, he was trying to be helpful, not an asshole.

When your reaction bursts into flame, it's telling you that you need to slow down the addition, use a more effective means of cooling, etc. You also might want to try mixing a solution of nitromethane in diethyl ether, and slowly adding the NaOH to that.

What you are making in aq solution might turn out to be useful, but it almost certainly isnt sodium methylenenitronate.

Marvin, are you implying that NaOH + CH3OH + CH3NO2 will yield methylenenitronate?

I though sodiummethoxide could only be formed by Na + CH3OH?

In very dilute solutions the reaction to ethoxide or methoxide will go to high yeild, but its not the base thats important here, only the lack of water. The nitronate forms initially with any base but with water it doesnt stick around very long. I'm not sure what would happen, but theres enough information to say theres a risk of some real sodium methylenenitronate turning up if this is done in methanol and kept cool.

I just tried adding NaOH to the NM responsible for the first post here (http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3130), this NM I believe to be "cut" with methanol. The reaction was much slower and puffed up to a grey/green powder before turning brown.

So I tried again, this time filtering the salt out shortly after addition so to catch the green/grey powder (white when dry). This powder burns very fast like blackpowder so I gather that unless there is another intermediate between the NaOH -> NaCH2NO2 -> Brown shit, then its the white powder that is in fact the nitronate, and the reason that the brown powder burns well when collected from the NM/NaOH reaction is due to a partial yield of the nitronate.

The white powder does not ignite in contact with NM, therefore doesnt have appreciable amounts of NaOH, and does ignite in contact with H2SO4. When added to water it will dissolve before the solution turns brown suggesting its decomposition to the brown shit.

Do you know any physical properties of sodium methylenenitronate to confirn this?

T.t.t ... you people. 2mins searching Federoff vol. 1 gives NM + NaOH(aq) --> (O2N) CH2 . CH (:NOH) or mononitroaceldoxime

Its written funny and im not sure which way to decipher it, someone should confirm that (pg. 16). Dont know if thats the liquid or the brown ppt as it also has the NH4 and K salts as C2H3N2O3NH4 and C2H3N2O3K respectively.

Then theres another reference on page 27 that gives CH3NO2 + KOH --> C2HK2NO4. So im confused, this is the salt of nitroacetic acid that I think you mentioned before Marvin. Its described as being "a powerful explosive". And when mixed in aq. solution with silver nitrate/lead acetate/mercurous chloride produces a flame sensitive ppt. Ag salt being strongest.

Does anyone have information if the NaCH2NO2 or the other nitronates are toxic?

Has anyone information about the velocity of a detonation or about the lead block expansion, or about it's sensivity to friction, heat, flame, shock?

I have just initiatet 3-4g NaCH2NO2 with 2g BP in a stoppered plastik tube.
Than I have put under a big pot cover. BOOM!
The cap flyed about 4m high. (without NaCH2NO2[only 2g BP] it flyed about 30cm high)

I has a little bit bigger velocity than 0.5g MHN wich I testet just, too, by the same way.
The cap flyed about 3-3,5m high and it gave white smoke (maybe the MHN was not fully detonatet).

That sounds good for streching or mixing with other explosives or for easy low-cost IEs (Initiating Explosives)...

I will make a video of this next week.

Sorry about my bad English.

Rsert, How did you make it? This thread is mostly about NaOH + NM failing to produce NaCH2NO2 as far as we can tell. What it does produce might be useful, but it doesnt seem to be very chemically stable, and real sodium methylene nitronate isnt either.

Sounds more like the 2gms of BP exploded, and not the nitronate.

I have put the 3g SNN it in a thick test tube (plastic) and but an half opened cracker in it.
The cracker does stopper the test tube for few seconds which will be enough that
the preasure, flame and the heat of the BP will initate some HEs and IEs (include MHN, Maltose ocanitrate).
But this will not work everytime.

My digital camera is broken by video of an detonation of 1000g AP.
Next week, i will get another, than I will make some pictures and maybe videos of it and its detonation....

Uups, it should be "put" and not "but" an it schould be "100g AP" and not "1000g AP", thats much to dangerous.

I'm sory about my bad English!

In the future, use the "edit" feature to correct any mistakes in your posts. Rather than creating a new post highlighting those mistakes - Anthony

MHN is mannose hexanitrate, and that compound can be initiated by flash powder as far as I know. Anyway, the non-primary explosives might be initiated by heat but as it seems, the explosion is of a bad quality in many cases.

Mannose?

You do mean Mannitol, correct?

Mannose ( (2S,3S,4R,5R)-2,3,4,5,6-pentahydroxyhexanal ) is usually used as a synonymous for mannitol ( (2R,3R,4R,5R)-hexane-1,2,3,4,5,6-hexaol ), but this is not true. They are different types of carbohydrates, as you can see by their different chemical names. Mannitol's molecule is like a mannose molecule, but with an OH single-bonded to the rest of the molecule instead of an O double-bonded to the rest of the molecule (both "rests of the molecule" are identical).

Anyways, by MHN, I'm sure he meant mannitol hexanitrate.

In this field of study, one does NOT assume anything! ALWAYS get clarification!

Still have 10 fingers and wish to keep it that way. :)

Yes, I mean mannitol hexanitrate and not mannose hexanitrate.
You can use it as a power booster for a primary explosive.
I think MHN is the best power booster for primaries, because it's fairly stable, cheap, does not decompose, and you can initiate it with flash powder or BP under high pressure.
Instead of it you can use nitropenta or something like its stabillity and power.
:)

Sorry, bur my camerea is destroyd again ;).
Has anyone tried to make lead, copper, silver or mercury nitronate?
It should be easy to prepare...
Just mixing calcium nitronate (NM and CaO) with a heavy metal sulfate (if heavy metal nitronate is good water solouble) in water and filter out the precipatet calcium sulfate (insolouble), then evaporate the water and dry the heavy metal nitronate.
Or when the metal nitronate is poorly water solouble, use sodium nitronate instead of calcium nitronate(because of
the good water solubilty of precipating sodium sulfate)
then filter and dry cautiolsly the precipatet heavy metal nitronate.

But be caraful, because maybe the heavy metal nitronates should be very sensitv to shock and friction!

At the time I'm out of heavy metal sulfates but soon i will get a kg bag copper sulfate. Then i will test it...