The belgian TV had a documentary about the Umatilla Chemical Weapons Depot yesterday evening. It's a US documentary discussing the potential hazards to the citizens of Umatilla and it deals with an accident on the facility in 1999.

About thirty construction workers came presumably into contact with low concentrations of sarin.
They all showed the following symptoms: Severe convulsions, twitching, foaming lips, severe respiratory difficulties, burning skin, wetting their pants and severe vomiting.

They were only allowed to go to the hospital after 2 hours. Some of them still suffer from mysterious colds which return every few months, go away and come back again. One construction worker lost 50% of his lung capacity.
This worker also claimed they were held on site for 2 hours because no traces of sarin can be found in the bloodstream after 2 hours.

The documentary also shows a somewhat older army demonstration of a nerve agent ( I presume Sarin) on a rabbit. The rabbit goes through severe convulsions and dies after 2,5 minutes of exposure to the vapour of one droplet. The evaporation speed was comparable to acetone/ether.

Another interesting bit is that the documentary was shot on september 10, 2001 and the press speaker of the complex tells the journalist the worst case scenario would be a large passenger aircraft crashing on the bunkers.

EDIT: What exactly causes this foaming effect? I know the other effects are related to losing muscle control.

Also, the site has some kind of museum and the press speaker was walking around with vials of nerve gas? :eek:
She was playing with them like they contained NaCl solution...

Where is situated this depot ? It's an interesting potential to have this piece of information in such a forum :)

The rabbit collapsed after 2,5 minutes of agony, but what was the size of its cage ;) , and how long would it have taken to bring him to lethal point ? I guess after less than one minute of exposure the rabbit would have died if taken off the cage (without medication of course ;) ).

The foaming is caused by the hyper-secretion of various mucousal and salivary excretions caused by the OPA sending the nervous system into overdrive. This then get foamed by the lungs blowing air through it.

I remember seeing an old test the military did with a storage igloo using live M55 rockets (GB-filled, the type stored an Umatilla), and setting one rocket off inside.

Wow...it was a MAJOR FUBAR...the igloo exploded, sending rockets flying off in every direction for several kilometers, as well as vaporizing the majority of the sarin into a cloud that killed the test animals miles down wind. This was back in the 60's, when they could still do this sort of thing. ;)

See, the M55 is not what would be term an "insensitive" munition. Indeed, it's quite sensitive to sympathetic detonation. And when it goes off, so does its neighbors. These little lovlies are packed in pallets, sixteen per, and stacked on top of each other, hundreds of them per igloo.

Problem is that the sarin was filled into the rockets with the expectation of using them for fighting World War III against the Soviets, so they weren't built to last but 10 years. So there wasn't extraordinary efforts made to stabilize the Sarin, using anti-corrosive liners, acid-scavangers, etc.

So...after more than 30 years...the rockets are springing (literal) holes in their bodies and (worse) warheads.

The rocket propellant is subject to "exothermic degradation", that being MIL-SPEAK for "spontaneous ignition", so they tend to be extremely hazardous to move becasue the propellant grains have crumbled in the bodies and could ignite upon friction from being moved. That's why the military hasn't moved any in the decades since they last disposed of thousands of M55's by encasing them in concrete blocks and dumping them in deep water.

While it's dangerous to keep them around, it's even more dangerous to move them, so they don't. 'Course, it'll inevitably happen that a storage igloo will blow up, releasing several tons of sarin into the air, but the military is gambling on the wind blowing it into the base, and not towards the populated areas.

The guards are also known to be rather lax in their responsibility in guarding these things. There's be any number of Red Teams that have penetrated the perimeter and left fake bombs INSIDE of the igloos. :eek: There's SO much area to cover, and SO many false alarms caused by rabbits and such, that there's no way any human could remain hyper-vigilant for the grinding months or years of guard duty with nothing "exciting" happening.

I seriously doubt that the tour guide was handling real nerve agent. Even the army is THAT stupid. Probably was water, just to demonstrate the appearance of a nerve agent, cause you could imagine what would happen if the tour guide dropped one during a visit by a local classroom. :p

The depot is in Oregon.

If you want to know what they'd do there during an emergency, that info is available from Amazon.com! :o

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/9991412670/102-5641889-5751349?vi=glance

Who needs spies and terrorist cadres when you've got the 'net? :D

Well, the schools and hospitals have overpressure units.
Problem is you have to reach them within 2 minutes, because otherwise they won't let you in, secondly most of the children have to walk outside, round the building, to get there.
Furthermore, the rooms which are suitable only have 1 toilet and the recommended isolation takes 3 days....:rolleyes:

Interesting too is that there is no antidote, atleast not in the schools. The exposed construction workers didn't get any antidote either.
Is there actually any point using an antidote? If you die after 2,5 minutes of exposure while severely convulsing, how the fuck are you going to administer an antidote? Furthermore, IF you succeed, how long would it take to start working?

The press speaker indeed said something about the M55. Roughly half of their mass is agent! IIRC, they weigh something about 500 pounds a piece? :eek:

She also showed the journalists an empty igloo, carrying a baseball bat, because they are infested with ratllesnakes and blackwidows. They come in through the ventholes, which are kept open with a piece of lead metal that melts at 160 degrees (celsius or Farenheit, I don't know).

So apparently it's military SOP to allow chemical agent to leak into the environment as long as there's no fire...

vulture, the antidote to the V agents(not sure if it works on any of the others), is atropine. Atropine must be injected very quickly after the victim has come into contact with the poison, or it will die anyway. Atropine is also a poison in and of itself, it slows down the nervous system, in the exact opposite way that V agent's speed it up, which is why it works.

I know how atropine works and that it's a powerful poison itself too.
I just wonder how it has got to be administered (heart injection or is this hollywood crap?) and what the delay is before it starts to work.

Are there actually powerful nerve agents that also cause a blistering effect?

Vulture, here (http://www.tpub.com/dental1/111.htm) is a link to info on atropine
as an antidote for nerve agents, including route of administration and dosage

I believe the atropine is injected into the bloodstream, and not directly into the heart. It's purpose is to counter the nerve agent, not jumpstart the heart. The best available data would be from the US military as they actually use emergency CW antidote injectors. I do know that the antidote should be given as rapidly as possible, meaning you should already have the antidote on you upon exposure to have a hope of survival free from lingering aftereffects.

The US military did experiment with nerve gas and mustard mixes back in the 60's or 70's to create a combination nerve-blister gas. These didn't find wide deployment, but more for practical reasons as nerve agents are effective enough.

Ah. I now know where hollywood got that heart injection crap! The suckers confused atropine with adrenalin...:rolleyes:

Adrenalin would be way to go if your nervous system is already in overdrive.:eek:

Did you know pepper sprays and other riot gases are not allowed for military use by convention? Bit weird if you ask me...

Let's see when the US military produces the first bio engineerd soldier that does not use acetylcholine esterase for nervous transmission...:D

It is against the Geneva Convention (I think) to use chemical weapons. Pepper spray falls into this category. So it's allright for a government to use pepper spray and tear gas against its own civillians but not against the enemy. :rolleyes:

I don't think it's any stranger than the fact the military has to use FMJ bullets, whereas police can use soft-tipped bullets.

Originally posted by mrloud
It is against the Geneva Convention (I think) to use chemical weapons. Pepper spray falls into this category. So it's allright for a government to use pepper spray and tear gas against its own civillians but not against the enemy. :rolleyes: i think the distinction is that riot control is performed by a non military organisation, and therefore falls outside the regulations of the geneva convention. the geneva conbvention only states how you should behave to other nations, not how you should behave towards your own.
on a related note i believe flashbangs, are prohibited by the geneva convention, as the geneva covention prohibits weapont that blind an enemy.

Atropine used to be administered by injection into the thigh using a syrette that you squeezed. Nowadays they have the more advanced, spring loaded autoject. Like a fat biro, you hold it against the thigh, push the button and hold it there for 10 seconds. (It also has a diazepam tablet contained in the end cap, which you're supposed to take as well)

I assume an im injection is used because a fitting human would have difficulty hitting a vein, not because it's more effective.

Yes, we have to carry 3 injectors with us and 1 injector with some other substance. The injects have the diazepam mixed into the injector with the atropine, its a narcotic I think. I would take the shot right in my ass cheek. People with more body fat take it in the thigh. Ill look up the contents on the other injector and let you know what it is. Also in response to mrloud we use riot gas on people when needed.

The diazepam is to control the convulsions, especially of the brain, which is what causes lasting damage.

BTW, THC (the active ingredient in marijuanna) was found to be at least twice as effective as diazepam in countering the convulsions induced by Soman.

The other most common protective drug used in injectors is 2-PAM Cl (2-pyridine aldoxime methyl chloride), to reactivate the cholinesterase bound up by the OPA.

Pyridostigmine and Physostigmine are used in pretreatment to bind up some of the neurotransmitter chemicals so that they can be released after OPA exposure, to allow for some normal functioning of the nervous system.

Use of these pre-treatment prophylactics can result in a 5x increase in post-exposure survival rates for Soman exposure. Though the use of -stigmines has minimal effect in increasing survival rates for Tabun or Sarin exposure, which are the only things within our skill level to make. :)

Unfortunately for our guys in the Gulf, the military added in Squaline to their pre-exposure pills, as a preservative/enhancing adjunct. Squaline has rather nasty side effects that have made it persona non grata with vaccine manufacturers, since it appears to cause permanent nuerological damage in young children and people occupationally exposed to organophosphate pesticides (or low levels of nerve agents, like soldiers blowing up munition depots! ;)).

I've worked at one of these demilitarization facilities, and thought that some extra info picked up in training classes on the chemical agents might be of interest.

Where I worked there were stores of VX, GB, HD and HT. HD and HT are mustard agents, and GB is more commonly known as sarin. In terms of the effects/antidotes/other information, we were instructed on the use of autoinjectors of atropine and 2-PAM Cl. The way that we were told that the nerve agents work (no guarantees on the information that was provided to me) was that they cause a block in the chemical in your body that breaks down acetycholine, which causes a gradual flood of impulses. Eventually, since your body no longer can stop actions, your muscles twitch, your eyes water and lose focus, your nose runs, and things just keep getting worse until you finally die (usually from suffocation, I think). Not just skeletal muscle is affected, so it is not uncommon for people to lose control of even their most disgusting bodily functions.

Symptoms of exposure to liquid GB or VX include twitching of muscles near the site of exposure as well as sweating. Symptoms quickly grow more severe. VX is definitely the more potent of the two and the faster killer, but has less use, IMHO, because it doesn't vaporize well at all. GB is very volatile at room temperature, and inhalation causes faster death, with symptoms of primary infection being watery eyes, a runny nose, pinpoint pupils, a runny nose, and a few other flu-like symptoms.

Security on these bases is really pretty light, actually, when you consider the danger of what they have.

Oh, another point of interest, some of the same companies who have been contracted to work on the US demilitarization are being contracted to work on Russian demilitarization. I think they are planning on sending some of their people from other plants to do work in Russia. The deadline, as stated, is 2007. Personally, I don't see that deadline as being anywhere close to the amount of time it will take, but we will see.

Yes, you are quite right, the chemical that is inhibited is called acetylcholine-stearase, and it does break down acetylcholine. The common acronym for the symptoms of a nerve-gas victim, is SLUD I forget what the S stands for, but the L stands for lacrimation, U stands for urination, and the D defecation.

I think the S in SLUD would stand for Saliva, since OPA victims drool a lot. And perhaps the D should stand for Dead. :)

I would think that the security at the depots would be light, since anyone trying to sneak into a weapons igloo is either:

A) A fool, who'll be quickly eliminated by the omnipresent agent saturating the igloos (weapons seepage) or by accidential release from careless handling. Either way, the problem solves itself. ;)

B) A professional, who'll be more than ready to deal with a few lax guards, and who'd need to be dealt with by a much larger force that's probably on call. I would think that there'd be a standing order for a nearby air base to bomb the be-jesus out of the site, in case of an attack, rather than risk anyone getting away with tons of CW. At least that's what I'd do. :)

Originally posted by nbk2000
B) A professional, who'll be more than ready to deal with a few lax guards, and who'd need to be dealt with by a much larger force that's probably on call. I would think that there'd be a standing order for a nearby air base to bomb the be-jesus out of the site, in case of an attack, rather than risk anyone getting away with tons of CW. At least that's what I'd do. :)

Perhaps, but there aren't air force bases within the immediate area of at least 2 of the CDFs, and that would seem like a nightmare (if the citizens are freaking out over a spill of mustard agent that amounts to a few drops, imagine the outrage at causing the chemical event.) With three of the sites, air raids by anyone would be the worst case scenario, as you'd be dealing with hundreds or thousands of tons of agent released in a vapor form into communities with significant populations.

Without giving out confidential information, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that a professional who wanted these weapons would have only one real problem: transportation. I was never afraid of theft because, honestly, how the hell do you move any significant amount of probably leaking chemical agent without being noticed?

The only real use I can think of would be as a weapon against the communities in which they are stationed.

Also, by lax guards, please remember that the number is often around 300 on call along with special response teams that are by no means inept... but still, that isn't much.

(idiot)U-HAUL or Ryder. Wait until a couple of weeks before fall semester starts at the local university. Get a rented truck and cardboard license plates. Hide the stuff in a field near the college town of your choice. Wash out the truck and then return it. Move the stuff and hide it in one of the many trucks that will arrive.:D(/idiot)(utter moron)Tanker truck?(/utter moron)

a professional who wanted these weapons would have only one real problem: transportation.



The only real use I can think of would be as a weapon against the communities in which they are stationed.


And there's your answer right there. They wouldn't have to move the weapons in order to use them. Setting up charges to blow them in place would be adequate in certain circumstances to cause a credible event.

Here's a scenario for you:

30 fedaykin are tasked with the job of obtain some american CW to use in an attack against a major population center. They could make it themselves, but they want the symbolic value of using the Great Satans own weapons against them. :)

Every last one of them is willing to die so that one of them may escape with the weapons. That's 29 men, some (or maybe most) of whom have actual combat experience in small unit action, either as afgah mujhadeen against the soviets, chechnia, etc, something the guards at the depot are highly unlikely to have, thanks to our policy of "standoff" weapons. :rolleyes:

They're armed with AKs, a couple of light machineguns, probably at least a few RPGs, and numerous grenades and other explosive devices.

They've spent the last year doing surveillance on the depot and testing the base security. They've spent the last couple months spoofing the alarms, triggering false alarms, and making the guards complacent in their response.

During a crappy night, when it's freezing cold and foggy, they attack. They know from past experience that base security will send out 2 men in a HUMVEE to check the alarm, because of all the prior false alarms. They never make back, being ambushed by severl fedaykin with silenced weapons, made from information obtained in various books.

One of the fedaykin gets on the radio and impersonates the guard in perfect english, buying at least ten minutes while the security station waits for their return. In the meantime, they break into an igloo, using their explosives. This set off the BIG alarm.

But that's OK, because it'll take at least 10 minutes for them to arrive on the scene, and having having dealt with a squad of martyr's armed with claymores and LMG that attack the guards at their assembly point, killing many, and disabling their vehicles. That's another ten minutes.

By this time the fedaykin have breached the igloo, and begun loading of the bulk container of VX and 155mm shells of GB that they have come for. This is about the time the last of the martyrs has been killed at the base security station and the whole base is mobilized like an ant hill.

About this time the U-Haul truck loaded with the stolen weapons is being driven away, while the majority of the fedaykin stay behind to fight a rear guard action against the approaching base security to buy time for their brothers to escape into the nearby urban sprawl and switch vehicles.

As the last of them dies, he blows the explosives placed amoung the remaining weapons, spewing a plume of supertoxic VX and Sarin into the air, that kills everyone downrange for several kilometers. As they lie twitching on the ground like spastic fish, the remaining fedaykin die with the "martyrs smile", knowing that the Great Satan will soon be feeling the wrath of the oppressed arab masses, thanks to the Great Satans own poisons. :p

NBK, ever considered telling Tom Clancy that story? Pentagon will hear of it automatically then. :p

So the OHS can change the threat factor to red, without doing anything else. If something happens, they're not liable, because they scaled up the threat factor. :rolleyes:

Really, these advices to the public in the war on terror have the same use as what's being done for the citizens of Umatilla: Scare the fuck out of people, put up a few signs, they're comfortable, you're being reelected.

Imagine the fallout of such a Fedaykin raid, even if unsuccessful in the attempt. This would be a major blow to the psyche of military commanders, and would send waves of sheer panic through the minds of all Americans. The President would have to immediately order tens of thousands of troops to be immediately stationed at every chemical weapons depot, ammunition dump, weapons cache, research center, and nuclear stockpile in the eventuality a repeat raid would occur. That’s tens of thousands of active duty troops stationed all over the country to provide overwhelming security all as a preventative measure.
These are troops that will be pulled away from wars and their usual duties just to baby sit a bunker somewhere, and they would likely be diverted for years. The cost would run into the billions of dollars to keep these troops active, it would be morale draining for the troops to just sit around, and it would not be a good incentive for new recruits with recruitment already strained since the US seems to be fighting too many conflicts with extended deployments.
At the very least the Fedaykin raid would likely spew toxic nerve gas into the general vicinity. This would result in chaos and terror in the local population. People for hundreds of miles would probably come down with phantom symptoms because of the psychological effect of nerve gas. The terror aspect of the raid would have been accomplished, score one against the Great Satan.
In total military expenditure the Fedaykin use 30 men and some weapons, whereas the US military ends up spending tens of billions in troop mobilization, decontamination, medical costs, and preventative measures. Plus the attack would spread even thinner the US military creating weaknesses in other targets for the terrorists to attack.

I suppose this boils down to how many sites can the military possibly protect? They hijack an airline, we spend billions beefing up security. They raid a chemical weapons depot we spend billions protecting all our weapons. They raid an oil refinery we spend billions protecting them. The terrorists could attack schools, hospitals, businesses, manufacturing, bridges, grocery stores, and many other prime targets. Each attack would send waves of fresh panic through the American people, and each attack would require more troops and billions of dollars to prevent. Each movement of troops and expenditure of money leaves weaknesses and budget shortfalls elsewhere. With enough terrorist attacks on a diverse range of targets our economy would be considerably weakened, and we will be diminished as a country. And all the terrorists have to do is send a handful of men willing to die for the cause, something that they have in abundance.

From the "Boy Who Cried Iraq" website, www.TheBoyWhoCriedIraq.com


Speaking of colors, what better way to keep America in a state of fear than with a color coded chart! I don't want to get too much into 9/11 and terrorism, but we need to touch on this color coded system that the administration is using to instill fear and faith in the public.

Let me ask you this. How exactly will a color system do anything more than help you test the pH balance of a swimming pool? Let alone stop terrorism.

Here is a secret: It won't.

What does a heightened state of alert really mean? Look at brown people more suspiciously when the color is closer to brown? Even after Tom Ridge, head of the Ministry of Truth, tells us to go on with our lives just the same?

Is the FBI on higher alert when the color changes? Of course not. They're smart enough to know that terrorist strikes will occur any time, especially when not expected.

So what really comes out of this color system? Fear!

The color is orange. The terrorists are coming! Duct tape your doors shut and your eyes closed. Really, just duct tape your hands to your ankles and your cheeks open and wait for Ashcroft to come to your door to thank you personally.

The public is appeased by a leader that will protect them. As soon as there is danger, the public looks to Bush for protection.

And that is exactly why this color system exists. In fact, it's absolutely genius. It's what Pavlov wished he could have done. It's like Simon Says but for keeps.

When has the color been raised to orange? [by the time of this writing]
*Before the attack on Afghanistan
*While rallying support to attack Iraq
*When the attack on Iraq began

Notice the alert has never gone all the way up to red. And I don't think it will. Once it gets THAT dangerous, people will question their safety and the effectiveness of the White House.
Are they protecting us?
Can we trust this color system?

And why didn't this system exist BEFORE 9/11? How did Tom Clancy know about this but the entire CIA, FBI, and American public not? [Well, according to internal sources, they did, but I won't touch that one yet]. Why doesn't the government just hire writers? People that HAVE to think to get paid?


Even if the ragheads succedded in killing no one but themselves, the fact that they attempted to make off with such lethal weapons from a military depot would throw the public into a frenzy, with the sheeple bleating for "Saaaaafety" and "Seeeeecuuurity". The military would have to divert much resources and troops to provide site security, diverting them from fighting elsewhere.

I'm surprised we haven't formed a state security police force, like the east germans had, where almost a third of the population was tasked with policing the other two thirds. I could imagine a literal police state where there's a SS (State Security ;)) officer stationed in every factory, office building, etc...to guard against terrorisist...of course. :rolleyes:

Here's an idea....terrorists have already succeeded in stealing some NBC weapon (by stealth), but the theft was hushed up so as not to show how incompetent the military was in guarding its arsenal, and they're praying the FBI finds them before they use it. Nuetrons in New York? Anthrax in San Antonio?

We can't protect everything, and we'd go bankrupt trying, so we have to prioritize. The CW wouldn't be a problem if the fucking enviromentalists haven't been holding up the very incineration they've been asking for by being so damn nit-picky about "emissions" and transportation of the weapons.

I'd love it if some terrorists to get away with some VX, and then hear the eco-freaks bring up the "If the army had burnt it like they were supposed to..." issue, just to have Bill Mahrer throw it back in their laps with "You blocked the incinerators because of the polly-anna wish for ZERO emissions...". :p

The rags wouldn't even have to make off with the weapons, just blow them in place, and they'd have succeeded. I think the worst case scenario of some depots was several thousand downwind civvies dead from the explosion of one igloo. Pour a drum of nitromethane down an igloo vent, toss in a flare, and watch (from upwind ;)) the fucker explode!

Rather than spending billions to try keeping everyone in the US safe, we should be spending that money overseas to make sure that the ragheads are feeling very UNSAFE, no matter where they may be hiding. Bring fear and terror to the enemy, not to yourself.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there something on CNN a few months ago about some intruder alert systems going off at a chemical munitions site, possibly in Utah? I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember an alarm of the sort that caused national news that suddenly was reported as wild animals in the fence...

I can tell you from experience that wild animals in the fence don't spawn national news.

Two possibilities, in my mind. One, it was wild animals and something went wrong to cause it to turn into news. Two, it was an intruder and the damage that would have been caused was too great, so... well... I hate to talk about government cover-ups...

Just wondering if anyone remembers this.

Also, to the person that called me a moron... do you really think that Ryder/U-Haul trucks will be effective? I'm skeptical at best, since 1- They would most likely be detected very quickly and tracked. We're talking all the law enforcement, army, FBI, CIA... we're talking shit raining from the sky. 2- The size of the weapons to be shipped is considerable. One ONC or EONC is very noticable... dwarfing any truck entirely. The rockets are smaller, but transport at a speed higher than 30 mph is a death wish.

Actually I intended those to br reminiscent of HTML tags without have UBB digest them or having to manually crank out the code for pointy brackets. I wasn't thinking appearently, why limit yourself to a Ryder/U-Haul truck. Apply for a commercial drivers license and bring a big truck.

There's a problem with language involving "rags" or "sand niggers" and other such slurs. It's related to my contention that much of the hysteria experienced in the US is by their news agencies. What's buggering me so is the inability to decide if there's simply some mindset in the American journalistic industry (I'm feeling charitable tonight) that sets air time (profit) above all other concerns, or if there might exist some X-Filesque shadow government with some oblique motive. The ultimate goal of such a dark teleology, of course, would simply be the exercise of control (power) by the few over the many.

This is the country where many drugs now outlawed are thought by cooler and more rational heads to have been originally implemented as an indirect means of rousting the immigrant rabble. Marijuana, after all, was the favourite of the incoming Spanish-speaking peoples.

This is also the country where a sharp division between state and church is ostensibly carven in stone, but children are still often forbidden by FEDERAL LAW to pray in public, as I understand such events.

One of the best weapons to use in any war against any population is disinformation, and it comes in many forms. I've the suspicion the "sheeple" of the US are simply responding positively to their cultural training, be it religious, racial or simply a distorted perception of what it is to actually be an American.

"Great," says Ivanova, "I'm stuck with people who can only think in slogans."

I can't speak for others, but I use terms like "raghead" and "sand nigger" to describe the inferior races that come from the middle east in accordance with my long-standing Nazi ideological beliefs, not from any media inspired sheeple sloganism. :)

CW agents?...to much work.

what do we see on TV every single night? suicide bombers!.

all it would take to send america, or any western country for that matter, into a state of massive panic, is a simple arab sucide bomber.
no CW agents, no incursions on millitary sites, just a simple sucide bomber in a shopping mall.
even if it didn't kill anyone - the fact that everybody sees it happen in eastern nations on the TV all the time and now its happening in there own country is enough to fuck everyone over.

you have to take the fear DIRECTLY to the people...if you fly a plane into a big building then people think "i don't work in a big building, so thats okay". you blow up a military stockpile "well, thats okay, cause i don't live/work near/at a base" you blow up a bridge etc etc..
an arab walks into the middle of a shopping center or a busy street..middle of a parade(mardi gras anyone? :) ) and blamo, what are people going to think? how is the government going to protect everyone from anyone?


if you attacked a military base, then the government would come to the rescue with "homeland security" laws and increased spending etc etc and the problem would just "go away" and nolonger be in the front of peoples minds.
a suicide bombers blows up, how would the government stop people from thinking about that? how would the government show that it could protect its country at the "people level"...it couldn't.

Exactly my point Mick.

It doesn't matter what weapon you use as long as it instills trouser-staining fear in the intended audience.

If you vaporize a building full of people, but don't instill fear in a nation, then what the point? A bunch of dead people that no one remembers?

The example of suicide bombers in Isreal illustrates the truely effective means of terror. By focusing on the population itself, the arabs have made it impossible for people to enjoy any sort of normal public life without the gnawing fear of very possible death eating away at their enjoyment. :)

That's what is needed to instill terror...bring it down to the level of the everyday...not the grandious (but ultimately futile) symbolic gesture.

And no reason you can't combine the two.

Blow up a depot of nerve gas and they'll never be able to say for sure that none of it is missing. Then start gassing the little people with your home-brewed version of GB. The media will happily put 2 and 2 together and terrorize the populace for you. ;)

A look at inside the Umatilla Weapons Depot.
http://people.whitman.edu/~dunnivfm/umatillaphotos.html

And Some Satellite Pictures too:
http://terraserver-usa.com/image.aspx?t=1&s=11&x=775&y=12701&z=11&w=1

If you zoom out to 16 meter resolution or about half way, you should notice some crop circles and a strange pattern of something in the northwest section. Any idea what it might be?

Maybe it are those irrigation systems that rotate around a center pylon?

If you check the topo map you'll notice alot of canals and irrigation systems.

Suicide bombs are very effective, but they should not be the first choice of weapons. After all, 1 person who can carry out several operations is as effective as several men who will carry out 1 operation each. On top of that, not as many people are so hardcore that they are willing to carry out suicide operations. Let's take the example of the Iraqi Resistance... though they use some suicide bombs, the vast majority of their operations are true guerilla attacks-- hit and run, roadside bombs, and rocket attacks. Why not use the same thing? Instead of walking up to the igloo, fire a few RPGs at it and run away. If a longer range rocket is in possession (think Hezbullah Katyusha rocketS), fire that! With the state of the M55 rockets, bad language and funny looks will probably set them off. Even if it is not a direct hit, the shaking caused by nearby explosions could cause one to ignite.

If it works well enough, breaching perimeter security won't even be necessary. And such shadowy attacks will create terror as well as suicide bombs will; I bet the American convoy drivers in Iraq are pissing their pants with every trip. The only difference is that with suicide bombs, everyone knows that there is nothing that can stop them. No fence or checkpoint or metal detector will stop an army of human-bombs. If the target is in sight, they just run past them and blow themselves up.

umatilla is right over in my neck of the woods. In fact I have driving past those chemical depots before. Its enough to make a guy nervous.

diazepam is a benzodiazepine which is a central nervous system depressant. I don't think that it is classified as a narcotic.

If you breath or if you touch sarin and V gas, the antidotal dose of atropine is 4 milligrams by injection every 10 minutes until signs of atropine poisonning appear.
the injection must be an intramuscular injection