Mammut
A new voice
Posts: 39
From: Essen,NRW,Germany
Registered: JAN 2001
posted February 02, 2001 11:27 AM
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if i take 200mlAcetone and 250ml H2O2,how
much Ap does it bring (g) ???

megalomania
Administrator
Posts: 651
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 12:55 PM
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The question is a good one, however I would advise you to perform yield calculations yourself because it is never good to do someone else's math homework. Finding this info on your own will go a long way to helping you in the future.
Unfortunatly for you this question can not be answered by anyone but you. Without giving us concentrations of reactants, what reaction conditions you want to use, and the catalyst, the only way to answer this is to actually perform the reaction. I am not aware of any particular data from journals that gives a % yield. If you do a search here I bet you will find alot of posts of people who have given how much they got, from there you can base your expected yield and run the calculation. If you want to know how to find out a % yield just do an internet search on the topic

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SafetyLast
Frequent Poster
Posts: 233
From: the cretaceous period
Registered: OCT 2000
posted February 02, 2001 05:48 PM
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Hey mammut hows it going?
I won't critisize you because I know that you are smart when it comes to scientific stuff.
I conducted a test recently that determined the yield of AP when using 30% Hydrogen Peroxide.
I placed 8mL of 30% H2O2 into a 25mL graduated cylinder that was in an ice bath.
after letting it cool for a couple minutes I added 13mL of pure acetone and then added 1mL of 32% HCl and stirred the reactants for 3 minutes using a stirring rod.
After letting this sit for 6 hours there was AP up to the 9mL mark on the graduated cylinder this means that the volume of the AP is about 2/5 (two fiths) of the volume of the reactants.
(this is before drying in the end I got 2/3 of a bottle cap full)
so it is usually 1/3 the volume of reactants
im guessing that it would be 10 times less if you were to use 3% H2O2 but im not sure.


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2312
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted February 02, 2001 06:08 PM
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Safetylast, have you tried the 6:1 ratio? 6 times as much acetone as pure H2O2. I did and got over 1/3 volume AP of reactants and that was with 6% H2O2! Should be an amazingy yield with 30%.


ALENGOSVIG1
Moderator
Posts: 766
From: Vancouver, Canada
Registered: NOV 2000
posted February 02, 2001 09:44 PM
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i get the same amount of product n volume as the reactants togehter. I use 60ml 35% h202, 48 ml 100% acetone, and 20ml 28% HCl .I always get a very large yeild.
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I've been looking for a confirmed correct "recipe" for AP. Everytime I search, the answers and amounts are different. I just looked over something I had sitting around and thought it might be useful :)

An old post from überchlor posted May 09, 2000 10:03 PM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">
First we look at the reaction-equation:
3 C3H6O + 3 H2O2 --> C9H18O6 + 3 H2O

Here is shown that we need 3 moles (102.03 grams) of Hydrogen peroxide (or 72.00mL) and 3 moles (174.24 grams) of Acetone (or 220mL) will yield 1 mole (222.24 grams) of Trimeric acetone peroxide. This is an equimolar amount (equal # of moles). Note: the H2O2 shown in the equation is setting the example if you were to use 100%pure H2O2, but mixing 100% pure H2O2 + acetone = BOOM! So then i divided the %-conc by the molar mass of 3moles of H2O2 to get some results in place of 100% H2O2:

50% H2O2 (should react exothermically): 204.06 grams (170.19 mL)

35% H2O2: 291.51 grams (261mL)
30% H2O2: 340.1 grams (305mL)
12% H2O2: 850 grams (809mL)
10% H2O2: 1,020 grams (985mL)
6% H2O2: 1,700 grams (1,666mL)
3% H2O2: 3,401 grams (What's the specific gravity of 3% H2O2?)

To 174.24 grams of Acetone (or 220mL). I divided the gram amount by the density of the solution to get the volume amount (in mL,cm3). the yield of trimeric acetone peroxide in the reaction is 90% yield, that means that the other 10% of the reactants (H2O2, acetone) reacted otherwise or didn't quite react.

and to get the molecular weight or molar mass of a compound, you simpily add the number of atomic weights of the elements given in the chemical formula , for acetone peroxide: 1 mole is 222.24 grams because the formula is C9H18O6, so.. the atomic mass of carbon is 12.011, the atomic mass of hydrogen is 1.008, the atomic mass of oxygen is 16 (rounded up for convenience):

C (12.011)*9 + H (1.008)* 18 + O(16)*6 = 222.24g/mole, the g/mol means that there are 222.24 grams of Trimeric acetone peroxide in 1 mole!

I'm not sure if the other calculations i did were precisely correct according to chemistry, but it's my best calculations. The hydrochloric acid is meant to only serve as a catalyst in this reaction, without a catalyst a reaction can not take place, or only proceeds very slowly! And since the yield is 90%, you should get something more like 200 grams TATP (triacetone triperoxide) rather than 222.24 grams. 200 grams of TATP is enough to kill you if it detonates in the near proximity of you, Period. even less than 100 grams TATP can do that..So use smaller amounts than i gave, like simplify them to meet smaller quantities, example: with the 6% H2O2 use 17.00 grams (16.66mL) to 1.74 grams of Acetone (2.20mL). Something like that..
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 02:56 AM: Message edited by: Stone ]</small>

A lot of procedures use a large excess of acetone, I think this is due to it evaporating during the procedure.

Yeah, but people also say that excess acetone will dissolve some of the yield... Is there a good comprimise?
Has anyone experimented with small variations of acetone?

From the above amounts, i'm looking at
150mL - 60% H2O2
220mL - Acetone
15-30mL - HCl

Is more Acetone reommended? If so, how much?
Most people have 27-33%, so it would work out to be:
300mL - 30% H2O2
220mL - Acetone
15-30mL - HCl

Thanks.

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 03:29 AM: Message edited by: Stone ]</small>

A question out of left field. How much AP do you consider "safe" to carry around. People say im a little cautious when i carry armor in between me and a 5gram charge.

<small>[ April 13, 2003, 06:47 AM: Message edited by: static_firefly ]</small>

What are you carrying it in? I would think that if you had it in a backpack, or shoulder bag, also though have it inside a bag or container full of sand.. Basicly something to absorb the energy from detonation should it go off.

I don't think carrying ANY amount is safe... But it's a risk i'll take to enjoy my hobby :)

I wouldn't take more than a loosely filled film cannister but i'm still scared carrying that after seeing what it can do to timber, concrete, and steel...
How many grams would that be about? I don't have scales.

I would have to second the agreemnt that transportaation of exploives, let alone home manufactured explosives is not a good idea. Though the time comes up very often where you do need to transport it.. Personaly i do not look at my self as any model to follow. I just try and never have it directly next to me... So if it every does go off I will not look like a over cooked ham.

It really would help us to know just how are you taking 5grams?

I could only suggest to pack absorbent materials around it maybe palce it in a film can and then that double ziplocked and then palce that in a gallon ziplock container and fill it with water then, add safety things form their.. These are just thoughts... I usualy deal with my stuff on site where I have made it..

Water isn't an absorbant material. It would transfer the shockwave to you much more effectively than an equivilent distance of air.

pumice stone abosrbs the shockwave. i would say sponge probably would aswell since its structure is similar.

Hmmmm.. I gues I did not see it like that, well damn. I was trying to think of somethign that would absorb the shockwave.. I had thought of and mentioned sand, when I mentioned water I forgot or had a brain fart about even sound traveling faster underwater, I belive it is somethign in the realm of 4-6x faster... woops...Sorry about that.

Still what would you guys suggest as a could way to transport it.. Now the EOD seem to love their little tin cans.. but must of us are not able to make or what to make something like that..

Who would you guys consruct one?

Since this thread started with a question about how much AP you could get, so...
I have just made my first AP, and since it was my first time, I decided to make it in real small scale.
I used a small spice jar as container to make it in.
The ingredients were:
30% hydrogen peroxide
100% acetone
Battery acid (boiled to half its volume.)

All the chemicals had room temperature, except the acid, it had about 5 degrees Celsius

I poured in 20ml H2O2 in the jar, and added 15ml of acetone.
Then I added 10 ml acid. (All volumes is estimated)
I read much about the mixture being hot and such things, but the temperature in mine did not rise noticeably.

Anyway, the mix turned cloudy and after 20-30 minutes, it got like a foamy layer at the top and at the bottom. The middle was much clearer.

Then I waited until the next day. The jar was full (up to where the surface of the liquid had been the other day) with the foamy, now a bit denser substance.
After I washed and dried it I put it in a film canister and it was little more than 1/3 full. (Don’t know how many grams it was)

You guys that know this procedure, how much is expected to get from these volumes of liquid? Did I get normal amount, or can you get even more? Like almost solid or something.

By the way, any of you had AP go BOOM by itself?

Originally posted by Efraim_barkbit
By the way, any of you had AP go BOOM by itself? [/B]
Do you mean detonate? Please be more specific when talking about the behavior of explosives. Do you mean has AP ever detonated without heat or shock? Or do you mean can AP detonate without a booster? I have never had AP detonate unprovoked, although i'm sure it could, especially if acid is unneutralized. AP will detonate without a booster as it is a primary.

Yes, AP can and has detonated without obvious stimulation. There always is a reason it detonated, but the stimulus can be subtle and unexpected.

what I meant was "Have any of you had AP detonate unprovoked?"

I tested mine and it was in fact less shock sensitive than i thought, I had to hit it quite hard with a hammer for it to detonate, and what a BANG, I used a amount of about 5x5mm, 0,5mm thick, and it was so much louder than when set of with a fuse. anyone know why? can it be that the hammer blow "packs" the AP or something?

and I tried to put a small amount between two coins and shot it with a air rifle. and nothing happened. It (the rrifle) is quite weak, but I thougt it would be enough to set it off if it really were that shock sensitive that people say..

My guess is that when you strike AP with a hammer all of it detonates, but when you ignite it some of it deflagralates which makes little noise. A while back I posted something about how my AP seems to be more powerful when detonated by another, smaller charge of AP. I would also guess that the reason your ears are ringing is due to the hammering of AP:D .

I have a holiday from school next week so I´m going to make some more AP then, and me and a friend are going to do some tests..
one test will defenitly be to let a small amount detonate a bigger charge.
Just one problem, I´m not sure if I dare to transport it to the site, i´m going with my moped on dirt roads for 5 km to his house., so i need just to come up with a way to carry it so that it is protected from bumping around too much.

wats te biggest charge with AP someone here has detonated at once?? just fun to know:)

I detonated 220 grams of AP before I learnt what this shit can do. Very loud bang, but way too much AP to be carrying around. Now all I make is 10 grams at most. It is more than enough for a couple of blasting caps, and it makes it a lot safer to work with.

I would not recommend you to make a lot of AP at once. Rather make enough for a blasting cap, and buy some AN or something to use it on.

I have set off about 50g of AP on it's own, and I have set off a 200g charge of flame sensitive APAN (APAN made with 25%AP instead of 10%).

Large amounts of pure AP is not a good idea though.

if transporting is absolutely neccessary the best shock absorbent material i know of is chalk, dirt cheap to. my teacher suggested this during one of our "theoretical" conversations on explosives

If transporting a small amount of AP, why not transport it unconfined, like in a piece of cloth or something. This way, if it does go off, it will only deflagrate and I cant see how you would suffer more than a bit of a singe. The other method, already mentioned quite a few times, is to store the main charge of AP damp with a tiny charge of dry AP (stored seperateley). Damp AP is very hard to detonate (even by flame), but should be able to be detonated by the smaller dry charge.

If AP stored in a cloth goes off, it all goes off, metafractal. Or so are my experiences. I don't know how much gas "a small amount" will produce, but you don't need that much to blow the windows out of for example a car.

Even wrapped in cloth or tissue paper, AP will make DDT and go high order. A shallow open container would make it more likely to simply deflagerate (not guaranteed!), but then you have the problem of spills and cops looking into your car and saying "yo got crax0r back here, boy?".

Hmm... well, I myself-- I mean SWIM, has ignited about 5g of AP in a piece of cloth, and it did not make DDT. It was evenly spread over the cloth, and only went up in a little ball of flame. Yet, even in the sallowest container, in the smallest amounts, it has always detonated.

Calculations are made in the pdf I made. Anyway, with 150 mL 30-35% H2O2, 120 mL acetone, and 40 mL 30 HCl, I got 36g dry AP. This is a kinda poor yield, compared to the 120 g I would have expected, exactly a 30% yield. I'll try to cool better the reactants before the reaction, as before adding the acid, the acetone/h2o2 mix got up to 40°C; I cooled it down, of course, to perform the acid addition to a global temp. of 12°C. I'll try to get a better yield next time.
BTW, what is your usual yield ? This is something we don't often hear about...

About the AP in / on cloth:

I used to filter AP through an old piece of clean cloth, from a t-shirt. After filtering a few batches in a row, the cloth was evenly covered with a thin sprinkling of AP crystals. (very pretty actually, all shimmering in the sunlight)

I lit the edge, well away from any actual AP, and stood back, assuming a very thin covering of wet AP crystals were fairly harmless. There was a bit on there, only waht I was to afraid to scrape off the cloth with somthing, fearing a friction ignition. The closth lit, and by the time I stood back up, it went off, and it was as powerful as dry AP, maybe because the heat of the flame dried, then ignited the AP.

Whatever happened, the tin can (Large milo can) was twisted, and thrown sideways. I learnt my respect of dangerous primaries the hard way :rolleyes:

darkdontayStill what would you guys suggest as a could way to transport it.. Now the EOD seem to love their little tin cans.. but must of us are not able to make or what to make something like that..

Just for info EOD does use the metal cans when there is an EMR hazard to shield it only when the EMR hazard is higher than making a pipe bomb by placing explosives in a closed metal container. We always use sand in an open metal box such as an ammo can. The metal containers used to transport caps can withstand a cap detonation. I guess with strong enough metal and a good packing material you could make one. Just know its limits and test it

Sorry im off subject but its good info

Just for info EOD does use the metal cans when there is an EMR hazard to shield it only when the EMR hazard is higher than making a pipe bomb by placing explosives in a closed metal container. We always use sand in an open metal box such as an ammo can.

Good heavens do we have another EOD on our hands? Who do you mean by we?

Stirofome and crumpled up paper are the best shock absorbers around they would also suppress the sound from an accedentale detonation.

I highly doubt that they would do much of anything to suppress the sound. Also there are many better shockwave absorbers, like pumice.

Good heavens do we have another EOD on our hands? Who do you mean by we?



We as in EOD oh and sand is one of the best shock absorbers, it uniformly distributes to energy of the shock wave to a harmless level, given enough sand of course. Its why we use sandbags to stop bullets and sometimes place around UXOs in to reduce damage to surroundings in event of detonation