DarkAngel
Frequent Poster
Posts: 610
From: ?
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-14-2001 05:41 AM
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I heard sometime ago about a chemical that can be added to a smoke bomb,and when the smoke bomb burns it vaporizes and creates pain in the throat/and eyes when inhaled.
Does some one knows which chemicals will do that?
And are there more chem's you can add that:
creates pain/let you feel sick/stink/etc?
This would be great for a large amount of ppl.

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ÐarkAngel

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mongo blongo
Frequent Poster
Posts: 175
From: I live in a Creosote Bush!
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 07-16-2001 03:55 PM
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Im not sure this is what u r after(it's a bit drastic) but i remember reading about exotic thermite mixes. It is possible to add some kind of fluoride chemical (cant remember which one). When it is decomposed form heat it gives off fluorine gas!
I guess u know what that stuff can do!
It might work in smoke bombs.
Chlorine gas would be good
You could try and make tear gas. I have seen a few methods somewhere on the net.

Well mongo blongo, there is no way of getting fluorine gas by the means of the temperature ! The product could be HF though.

A mate and I were making fireballs with the Freeze Spray in the lab at work once. The fumes were Nasty. When I read the label and found we'd been igniting hydrofluorocarbons, I realised why :D

Chilli oil is a rather nasty but non-lethal compound that can be made to vaporise in smoke devices, you dont even need the smoke part unless that`s your aim as well.
but any slow burning relatively low temp device will work well for vaporising the Capsiacin in the chilli oil.
goto an indian or paki shop and buy a big bag of dried and crushed birdseye or scots bonnet chilli flakes.
put it in a sauce pan and cover with peanut (ground nut) oil, bring it to the simmer, the oil will go a bright orange/red color.
wear gloves and goggles! and do not get it so hot that it smokes!!! else it`ll be YOU in pain.
leave it to cool naturaly or even sit over night, stir occasionaly. then pass it through a tea strainer.
then a filter and store it as needed.
to use, make a slow burning mix in a thin walled cardboard tube, soak some tissue in the oil and wrap it around the tube, keep it in a plastic bag and use within an hour or 2. or longer if you attach your fuse at the site you plan on setting it.

don`t get any on you! or rub your eyes or go for a piss if you`ve got some on your hands!
that stuff burns like a mutha!
don`t say i didn`t warn you :)

all the best, Stay safe :)

Ahh, yes! I recall a restaurant my wife and I went to once. Someone had overheated the chillies in the kitchen and the fumes had all the patrons gasping and choking. We cancelled our booking and went elsewhere.

So if its that bad done by accident, imagine what you could do intentionally!

Nice idea yt2095

I don't know if this is a good enough idea to post, but I will find out I suppose. What if someone was to make the good old KNO3 and sugar in a toilet paper tube device with a (very!?) heat resistant glass test tube placed in the center while hot enough. Then, prior to use, filled the beaker with HCl and put a plug in it. When it is ignited (plugged side up vertically), it will hopefully pop the plug and vaporise the acid and disperse the gas into the air. I know from first hand experience that HCl fumes are quiet irritating to the mucus membranes. I still don't know how I filled my house with the HCl fumes, the lid was on the bottle and I was only working with about 5-15 ml, suggesting that it is quiet potent (or I spilled a lot somewhere and didn't know it, unlikely).

"A highly irritating, greenish-yellow gaseous halogen, capable of combining with nearly all other elements, produced principally by electrolysis of sodium chloride and used widely to purify water, as a disinfectant and bleaching agent, and in the manufacture of many important compounds including chloroform and carbon tetrachloride. Atomic number 17; atomic weight 35.453; freezing point -100.98°C; boiling point -34.6°C; specific gravity 1.56 (-33.6°C); valence 1, 3, 5, 7."

For versatility, maybe a platform should be mounted to the bottom for stability. And one might get better dispersion if the device was placed in a pipe (what metal is HCl and high temp resistant) so the smoke will help push the HCl vapors up and out. Also, there are probably better chemicals to use than this, but it's what came to mind and it's cheap and easy to get. Here is some quickly gathered info...


HCl
"A highly irritating, greenish-yellow gaseous halogen, capable of combining with nearly all other elements, produced principally by electrolysis of sodium chloride and used widely to purify water, as a disinfectant and bleaching agent, and in the manufacture of many important compounds including chloroform and carbon tetrachloride. Atomic number 17; atomic weight 35.453; freezing point -100.98°C; boiling point -34.6°C; specific gravity 1.56 (-33.6°C); valence 1, 3, 5, 7."

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/HY/hydrochloric_acid_1M.html

And one more thing, STANNIC CHLORIDE, 5-HYDRATE (http://physchem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/ST/stannic_chloride,_5-hydrate). "Stannic Chloride reacts with ambient humidity to liberate a white smoke consisting of HCl and tin compounds." If this isn't too hard to get hold of or expensive, one could fill the test tube with water and have Stannic Chloride above it. Supposedly this stuff is more irritating than plain old HCl vapour. More Stannic Chloride info. http://www.sensidyne.com/News/MSDS/5100%20Smoke%20tubes.pdf

Cricket,

chrome silver lead titanium or copper would all hold the HCL for a while.
copper or lead would be best for obvious reasons (its cheaper).
only problem is tho, if your going to cause a stink, the copper would be left as evidence, and possibly tracable, the lead would be the best i recon, a molten lump of lead would be much more difficult and it`s unlikely they`ll do a radio assay on it to find it`s source :)
i personaly prefer no-lethal myself, but i`m sure at a push an excess of sulpher or even in your tube idea would be quite nasty too.

Don`t try this at home kids :)

If one mixes a little excess of AN as oxydizer in the smoke bomb, wouldn't it produce some NOx fumes, which are very nasty (!).
Using a chlorate as an oxydizer too would make also bad fumes; but I don't think it would be the best for a efficient smoke bomb.

What do you prefer ? More fumes or nastier fumes ?

What about adding pool chlorine to the smoke mix? When in lumps and spread around nicely they should decompose and give of Cl2 gas..

Thomas, I think the point is that it be non-lethal, and chlorine is quite a deadly gas(although in very small quantities it should have the desired non-lethal pain effect). You could also use sulfur trioxide(anhydrous sulfuric acid) vaporized in the smoke, which should cause quite a bit of pain, however it could also be fatal if too much is inhaled.

I don't believe a cubic inch of pool chlorine granules will produce enough CL₂ gas to kill anybody. Remember it's gonna spread over quite a large cloud of smoke (by comparison to the cloud of clorine), and as I remember it a good whiff of chlorine hurts like hell. (And I remember quite vividly :eek: ) Perhaps a good lump of PVC is enough to make people nauseous and desoriented. after all PVC contains chlorine as well.

what about using acrolien in a smoke bomb, either by putting the acrolien into the smoke bomb, or by putting "binary components" in, such as glycerine and sodium bisulphate

2 other readily available and nasty compounds would include Hostaform plastic (usualy white and resembles moulded Nylon) it stinks like the devil when heated you`ll soon know youve got the right plastic, touch a hot soldering iron on some and take a sniff, if you run out screeming and in tears, it was Hostaform :)

the other is plain old super glue (crazy glue) cyanoacrylate.
lightly oil a sheet of glass, and empty several tubes in lines across it, let it dry then peel it off.
break it up into small flakes and add that to your smoulder mix.

you wouldn`t hang around long enough to get a lethal dose anyway, so it`s kind of in keeping with my non-lethal policy (kinda) :p

and no, i don`t know the antidote for either, `cept don`t sniff the stuff in the 1`st place :)

Enjoy! :)

Thomas said that PVC could be added. This has made me remember a time several years ago when a fiend and I made a sparkler fountain and used a piece of PVC pipe for a casing. After the fountain had finished, there was a lot of smoke pouring out of the tube (the hot ash scorching the PVC) and the smoke made us cough like mad, even in the fairly low concentration that we were exposed to (we were standing about 10m away, the PVC was only about 20cm long and 2cm wide with 2mm wall thickness and most of the smoke went upwards).

Amongst many other nasty compounds, PVC while burning release some HCl.

doesn't acrylic release some HCN upon burning?

PVC does relese HCl. Acrylic (PMMA) releases Methyl Methacrylate and CO. Urethane foam releases all sorts of toxic compounds
Thermal decomposition products from polyurethane foam, consist mainly of carbon monoxide, benzene, toluene, oxides of nitrogen, hydrogen cyanide, acetaldehyde, acetone, propene, carbon dioxide, alkenes and water vapor.

From a safety report on urethane foam. Nasty.

Most of this info can be had from MSDS sheets. Had to hunt for the urethane one - the MSDS weren't too specific about their 'toxic decompositon products'

The idea of various peppers is an interesting, simple,and non-lethal solution. I believe that Habanero peppers would be a good choice for such a device.

I especially like the idea of the Indian/Pak spices. :D They make some pretty hot food, and if you've ever gotten their spices up your nose (i remember breathing a cloud of turmeric once...), you would know that persistent burning feeling you get (for me, it lasted an hour or so). It makes breathing through your nose painful.

So, potential spices might include turmeric and cumin seeds.. I will have to compile a list of more spices used in Indian/Pak and Persian cooking.

God, this is brining back memories of my dad trying to dry a multitude of different pepers/ chillis/ etc in the microwave... He litteraly created a 'pepper spray bomb' since when the door to the microwave burst open, out pours quite a large ammount of pepper spray....

NOT a nice way to wake up in the morning...

Some of the spicier mustards might work well also. I remember putting WAY too much mustard on a hot dog by accident, and getting an incredibly painful headache almost immediately. btw: this was honey mustard, I don't think you get the same effect with non-honeyed mustard.

Care that your bomb burns ! You will lose a lot of product in the combustion. The problem is to find a compound that burns with nasty fumes. A nasty compound will only work if it's partly taken up with the fumes.

If that is the case, I remember the idea of Poison Ivy oil... When it burns, the fumes and the smoke will also cause allergic reactions. Therefore, if inhaled, you can just imagine the pain and the potentially dangerous swelling...

But this is assuming you want a more lethal (well, not QUITE lethal) agent, because not only would the reaction be delayed, but also threatens the airways.

Formaldehyde would be excellent for this purpose. It burns skin and destroys mucous membranes within seconds. It is however, quite toxic, when inhaled or ingested(it's still toxic from skin contact, just not as much).

mustard (as in the ground seed) powder wont work unfortunately.
it needs water to activate, oils or vinigar will give the flavor but not the heat. as a gas it wouldn`t work either as i use mustard oil and seeds the cooking of some dishes and it will impart flavor but not heat. water is the catalyst for mustard only, sorry :(
=== NOT to be confused with "mustard gas" the vesicant ===

habenero peppers are good, birdseye are better and scots bonnet are the ultimate!
if i use parafin (kerosene) to make your oil, it`ll also tie in nicely with my "Areosol Weapons" thread as a filler for cans.
i sugested groundnut oil on this thread as viscosity isn`t a problem for a smoke device and it will take much more heat than regular cooking oil before smoking (i don`t want to see anyone get gassed as a result of my idea!) be carefull anyway though, and you don`t want to brown your dried peppers anyway, you only want to extract the capsciacin oils.

turmeric isn`t hot or irritating (unless you get it on your favorite clothes) it`ll leave an almost permanent bright yellow stain that will at best turn red in a strong base solution (dil NaOH aq).
UV light will reduce it but not remove it. turmeric has a sweet almost coco type smell.
Cummin, a non irritant also, used in medicine as a flatulance remedy and carminative.
however, your idea has much merit in the fact that MANY food stuffs can become quite noxious if abused in the right way :)

hope some of this helps a little? :)

There are good sources on the internet for "super hot sauces" that are extreamly high in capsiacin. They also sell pure capsiacin that would make your nerve endings scream with pain, the pure capsiacin is rather expensive though

id stick with the chilli idea, i remember i used to make chilli powder with the chillis our ethnic neighbour grew, i accidentlly left them in the oven too long and gassed the entire house, that stuff really makes you choke and cough. Also you could use pepper or canienne pepper, i tested a few after the chilli incident and found that pepper works almost as well. perhaps you could just mix some in with the molten KNO3 sugar mix? i dunno if i get a chance ill try it.
and what about netmeg? it containes hallucinagens and the smoke could have some weird effecs.

Concerning the pepper idea... While you could get an effect by burning Chili powder or Habaneros by themselves, I would suggest making your product as high quality as possible-- unless it is immediately needed for use. As such, I would put the the Chili powder ( Cayenne pepper works too ) in Acetone or Ethanol, lightly heat it, and let it sit for a few hours. Then, filter out the impurities and let the solvent evaporate, so that the pure Capsaicin precipitates.

Pure Capsaicin (or Oleoresin Capsicum, the name we are more familiar with) is extremely painful stuff. Suitable protection would be required at this point, because as one worker exposed to OC said, "It won't kill you, but it will make you wish you were dead." As such, it would be much more effective to burn this, and get a "cleaner" smoke with fewer impurities.

Alternately, Black Pepper may be a milder option. Instead of Capsaicin, it contains Piperine, which is also soluble in organic solvents.

Acrylonitrile has a CN group on the chain, where the Cl's are with PVC. Guess what that releases when it burns?

Polyurethane is polymerized hydrogen cyanide. So guess what that gives off when burnt? :D

paraformaldehyde decomposes into formaldehyde when heated above 180°C, so that'd be something nasty to burn off too, though you may need to have it in a seperate container above the burning smoke mix so it's distilled off, otherwise it'll likely burn in the flame.

Polymerised HCN, how can that be?

http://www.psrc.usm.edu/macrog/images/uresyn04.gif

That's your average polyurethane, from here BTW

http://www.psrc.usm.edu/macrog/uresyn.htm

those amide (i think that's what they are, HNCO like in proteins) linkages could give HCN

what sort of protection would be needed when handling capsaicin and also what are its physical properties, i can only access to the merck index at school and even then i have to con the teacher because he knows what im up to.
also would someone be able to give me some advice about the nutmeg idea i posted earlier. any other solid spice based pain agent suggestions would be good as would sugggestions about central nervous system agents. im sorry about bringing up CNS agents here
thankyou to mr samosa for his advice

To get this straightened out... Urethane is the simplest Carbamate-- this is to be distinguished from an amide. A carbamate takes the general form RO-CO-NR2, whereas an Amide is R-CO-NH2. Urethane's formula is H3C-O-CO-NH2. To me, I see it as a potential anticholinesterase with some modifications... Soon enough, I'll compile more interesting stuff about carbamates into a useful thread :D .

Capsaicin is extremely irritating to the nose, the skin, the eyes (this would be excrutiatingly painful!!!). It is not particularly poisonous, but just very very painful; you could put it in your food if that's your thing. In fact, many hot-sauce stands sell hot sauces with OC in it (but be warned, these have been known to cause insta-vomiting!). I wouldn't do that, though, because not only would it hurt going down, but it would hurt like hell coming out! :eek: My suggestions would be to wear a gasmask with full eye and face protection and to wear good chemical gloves, at the very least. Remember, do not touch yourself without thoroughly washing your hands!

I was reading this thread earlier and was thinking that my friend should try that in school :) . But more to the point, my friend has been making picric acid from asprin and he noticed that when the asa is drying if it overheats it releases some gasses(acetic acid fumes and some other things) that burn the living hell out of his mucous membranes. I personaly would wrather inhale HCL fumes than that shit,( I don't know why but it seems to burn much more, but of course I would wrather not breath either.). This also conforms with the non leathal policy as unless you inhale alot it's not going to kill you, just make you unable to creat mucouse. This may not work unless the burning is not allowed to go to completion so seperating it from the smolder mix may be a good idea but as those picric makers probably know, this stuff burns.

A post which was lost in the iDefence incident.

__________________________________________________ _______________Name: ~Phelixx~
Join date: Oct 2003
Post date: July 5th, 2004, 03:18 AM
Posts: 8

Quote:
"It won't kill you, but it will make you wish you were dead."
Before anyone think of using capsaicin in their smokebombs, they might consider, that fumes given off from burning the stuff gives those lovely nitrous gasses you know from fuming NA, which eventually leads to pulmonary lung edema.
__________________________________________________ _______________

How about urushiol? This is the active ingredient in poison ivy, etc...
Merck says:

Pale yellow liquid; d(21.5) 0.9687; bp 200 - 210. Soluble in alcohol, ether, benzene.

I imagine you could obtain it by letting the plant dry, then mixing the pulverized remains with alcohol, filtering, and then letting the filtrate evaporate until the juice is left. It won't be pur ofcourse, but VERY little of it is needed for a great effect. I've heard that smoke from burning old, dead plants can cause a bad rash.
But this isn't the istant pain that this topic seems to want... still could be useful.

I think the question is little poor defined (don't take it as na insult). Several ideas are OK and already tested in old WWI chemical warefare test (chlorine, acrolein etc.). Chlorine is not so heavy to filter if you know how:). But to much of this ideas is toxic...i didn't like the idea about PVC since it's monomer is carcinogenic and can be created in the proces...who of us want to buy a death in the testing proces? Pepper idea is low cost not suspicious to law...but takes a good handy man to make it to life. First what came to my mind is something armies around world are using in their tear-gas granade...they bust police grade CS with a BZ compound (who know what I said will understand:)). So please more info so I can made my mind what for look for...

Another thought,

What is the main ingridient in the smoke/fumes from road flares. I'm not sure what the final smoke product is (Red Phosphorus, Strontium Nitrate Sr(NO3)2) but when it burns it is very painful to breath in. Also the next day you feel almost short of breath. Many Firefighters and cops will tell you not to be downwind of flare smoke cause its so painful to breathe.

Nite