megalomania
June 21st, 2003, 12:21 PM
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 172
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-16-2001 03:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found a jar of acetone mixed with NC (from shotgun shells) and I guess I forgot to put the lid on. All the acetone was gone and I was left with a black plastic stuff in a jar. So I broke the jar and pealed off the rest of the glass. Then I cut the plastic into strips (about the size of a tooth pick) and wrapped it once with tape. I found it will burn pretty good and the first one burned under water fine. The other two burned under water only for a second, but I was able to re-light them. I have about 10 strips left and will make more experiments with them and post the results. The main thing is I want to mould it into an antenna or something to make it round instead of square (so the inside and outside will burn more evenly). The fuze is kind of stiff, but flexable also.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited June 16, 2001).]
richl261
Frequent Poster
Posts: 134
From: uk
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 06-16-2001 04:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wow, sweet! how much was there?
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 155
From: NYC,NYC,USA
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 06-16-2001 04:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think this would work with Ping-Pont balls?
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-16-2001 04:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hi
i thought of making a fuse using nitrocellulose but i was thinking of making a standard black match fuse and coating it in nitrocellulose paste made from mixing it with acetone. as i don't have any nitrocellulose at the moment i haven't been able to test it yet. i also thought the addition of a small amount of aluminium powder would keep the flame hotter allowing better burning under water.
i don't think pingpong balls will work as they don't have a high enough nitrogen content but they could work to water proof a fuse.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-16-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NC will not burn in the absense of O2. it can be used to coat the fuse as a water proofing coating. But it will not burn without O2. I have made under water fuse if any wants the article on how-to? let me know
Drop me a line;
agent_blak@yahoo.com
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-17-2001 02:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey,Cricket,If you add just enough acetone to soften it,then place little blobs of it in your palm,you can roll it into round strips (but if it's double base,you'll probably get a headache!).
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-17-2001 10:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cellulose won't burn without O2 but nitrocellulose will, else firearm cartirdges would be a bit useless!
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-17-2001 01:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
try this;
pour 3 TBSP of Smokeless in a dish.
add just enough acetone to soften it(about 1 TBSP)
stir until it starts to become stiff
now put on some latex gloves, pivk it up and roll it in to a ball between your palms.
alow it to dry out.
Put on some welding gloves(leather), light the ball. You can play with it(your it around) and it will stay lit, but cup you hands around it a making it so no O2 is available. it will stop burning. it can then be re lit and you can repeat this.
I never saying thing is some way unless I have tried it.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-17-2001 07:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is damn strange!
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 05:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactely my thought too!
How the hell nitrocellulose can make the D to D transition without being able to burn without air (under confinement thus also!).
I think that the remaining aceton might be the explanation or the quality of the nitrocellulose (% of nitrogen in it)...usually bullet NC is cut in little shapes to ensure a certain rate of combustion depending on the reaction surface!
Here your reaction surface is strongly reduced; also NC with low N% is needed since people don't want their gun to detonate while shooting (different from blast NC)!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 706
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 06:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philou is right, whenever I would light a bit of NC before it was completly dry, it would barely remain lit and would go out easilly as Agent blak reported.
But if the NC and acetone solution were a little bit thinner, like syrup, then poured onto wax paper it would be completly dry by morning, and would sustain a flame easilly, but also burned faster.
I have dreamed about experimenting with Smokeless powder in fuses, I would dip sections of cotton twine in NC laquer, then roll it in fine (I dont remember which, SR-7625 maybe) Smokeless powder, when dry, the fuses burned way too fast to be useable.
A 12" length burned in approximatly 2.4 seconds, obviously thats no good.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what you are saying that the smokeless(NC) burns because it is in little cylinder shapes alowing for air space, as well as it not being right full of smokeless. so in actuality it is not burning in the absense of O2. Fascinating... looks like I kew what I was talking about after all.
*wink*
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 10:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
agent blak - i'm sure that NC could burn without O2 presence because how else could smokeles powder putty and AP work?....i think the reason your experiment may have apparently proved this is that the gloves smother the only burning suface the NC has. in rifle cartridges there are burning surfaces between the powder allowing burning. however with your gloves you are covering the only burning surface. if you take some NC and put it under a bell jar shorly after ignition it would prove once and for all whether it needs O2 to burn. as if it does it would shortly go out - if it doesn't then it'll keep burning. personly i think it need burning surfaces (lots of them) so watever is in contact with the container will burn toward the container or somthing like that....now i'm confusing myself....i hope somebody knows what i'm trying to say. oh yer also you could try thw glove thing with powdered NC to see if i'm right.
[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited June 18, 2001).]
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 212
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-18-2001 02:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When You say "smokeless" do you mean single-
or doublebase?
If you are using doublebase, then remember that quite a large �part of it is actually nitroglycerine which is has excess oxygen.
By the way, I also think good quality NC will burn without oxygen.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 05:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think i'm right because NC burns inside a rifle cartridge but not in the gloves but the key difference able to explain this is the burning surface. i don't have and NC at the moment so i can't test it.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 07:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We also dropped it on the floor it continued burn. We then place a clean, empty soup can with one disc missing(like a cup) over top of it and it snuffed itself out in several seconds.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-19-2001 04:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how nitrated was the NC? or was it commercial grade stuff...i'm really surprised. i'll try that if i can get some NC soon.
[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited June 19, 2001).]
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-19-2001 11:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It states above that it was smokeless that was used... so I guess that would be commerically made.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 172
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 07-14-2001 10:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My NC was from shot shells. And I think that this NC can burn without extra Oxygen because it does in guns. So there is a bit of air in the spaces in the flakes, well air isn't pure Oxygen, and I didn't think that much air would do anything. And if it was burning underwater, would it burn hot enough to separate the Oxygen from Hydrogen? I might make more of this soon. The stuff I had was not all the same (the NC closer to the outside of the jar is thinner and other variables).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-23-2001 08:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No way it will decompose water to do so you need temps over 2000�C; thermite can do the job (3000C), or oxyacetylenic welder torch (3200C) or the plasma created by oxycyanogen welder torch (very toxic gas NC-CN)(4200C).
Frequent Poster
Posts: 172
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 06-16-2001 03:08 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I found a jar of acetone mixed with NC (from shotgun shells) and I guess I forgot to put the lid on. All the acetone was gone and I was left with a black plastic stuff in a jar. So I broke the jar and pealed off the rest of the glass. Then I cut the plastic into strips (about the size of a tooth pick) and wrapped it once with tape. I found it will burn pretty good and the first one burned under water fine. The other two burned under water only for a second, but I was able to re-light them. I have about 10 strips left and will make more experiments with them and post the results. The main thing is I want to mould it into an antenna or something to make it round instead of square (so the inside and outside will burn more evenly). The fuze is kind of stiff, but flexable also.
[This message has been edited by Cricket (edited June 16, 2001).]
richl261
Frequent Poster
Posts: 134
From: uk
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 06-16-2001 04:04 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
wow, sweet! how much was there?
sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 155
From: NYC,NYC,USA
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 06-16-2001 04:05 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you think this would work with Ping-Pont balls?
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-16-2001 04:29 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
hi
i thought of making a fuse using nitrocellulose but i was thinking of making a standard black match fuse and coating it in nitrocellulose paste made from mixing it with acetone. as i don't have any nitrocellulose at the moment i haven't been able to test it yet. i also thought the addition of a small amount of aluminium powder would keep the flame hotter allowing better burning under water.
i don't think pingpong balls will work as they don't have a high enough nitrogen content but they could work to water proof a fuse.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-16-2001 07:51 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NC will not burn in the absense of O2. it can be used to coat the fuse as a water proofing coating. But it will not burn without O2. I have made under water fuse if any wants the article on how-to? let me know
Drop me a line;
agent_blak@yahoo.com
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
MacCleod
Frequent Poster
Posts: 220
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 06-17-2001 02:42 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey,Cricket,If you add just enough acetone to soften it,then place little blobs of it in your palm,you can roll it into round strips (but if it's double base,you'll probably get a headache!).
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-17-2001 10:13 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cellulose won't burn without O2 but nitrocellulose will, else firearm cartirdges would be a bit useless!
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-17-2001 01:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
try this;
pour 3 TBSP of Smokeless in a dish.
add just enough acetone to soften it(about 1 TBSP)
stir until it starts to become stiff
now put on some latex gloves, pivk it up and roll it in to a ball between your palms.
alow it to dry out.
Put on some welding gloves(leather), light the ball. You can play with it(your it around) and it will stay lit, but cup you hands around it a making it so no O2 is available. it will stop burning. it can then be re lit and you can repeat this.
I never saying thing is some way unless I have tried it.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2383
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-17-2001 07:27 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is damn strange!
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 05:49 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Exactely my thought too!
How the hell nitrocellulose can make the D to D transition without being able to burn without air (under confinement thus also!).
I think that the remaining aceton might be the explanation or the quality of the nitrocellulose (% of nitrogen in it)...usually bullet NC is cut in little shapes to ensure a certain rate of combustion depending on the reaction surface!
Here your reaction surface is strongly reduced; also NC with low N% is needed since people don't want their gun to detonate while shooting (different from blast NC)!
------------------
"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
"Chemistry is all what stinks and explode; Physic is all what never works! ;-p :-) :o)"
BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 706
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 06:10 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Philou is right, whenever I would light a bit of NC before it was completly dry, it would barely remain lit and would go out easilly as Agent blak reported.
But if the NC and acetone solution were a little bit thinner, like syrup, then poured onto wax paper it would be completly dry by morning, and would sustain a flame easilly, but also burned faster.
I have dreamed about experimenting with Smokeless powder in fuses, I would dip sections of cotton twine in NC laquer, then roll it in fine (I dont remember which, SR-7625 maybe) Smokeless powder, when dry, the fuses burned way too fast to be useable.
A 12" length burned in approximatly 2.4 seconds, obviously thats no good.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 10:04 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what you are saying that the smokeless(NC) burns because it is in little cylinder shapes alowing for air space, as well as it not being right full of smokeless. so in actuality it is not burning in the absense of O2. Fascinating... looks like I kew what I was talking about after all.
*wink*
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 10:30 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
agent blak - i'm sure that NC could burn without O2 presence because how else could smokeles powder putty and AP work?....i think the reason your experiment may have apparently proved this is that the gloves smother the only burning suface the NC has. in rifle cartridges there are burning surfaces between the powder allowing burning. however with your gloves you are covering the only burning surface. if you take some NC and put it under a bell jar shorly after ignition it would prove once and for all whether it needs O2 to burn. as if it does it would shortly go out - if it doesn't then it'll keep burning. personly i think it need burning surfaces (lots of them) so watever is in contact with the container will burn toward the container or somthing like that....now i'm confusing myself....i hope somebody knows what i'm trying to say. oh yer also you could try thw glove thing with powdered NC to see if i'm right.
[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited June 18, 2001).]
Microtek
Frequent Poster
Posts: 212
From:
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-18-2001 02:25 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When You say "smokeless" do you mean single-
or doublebase?
If you are using doublebase, then remember that quite a large �part of it is actually nitroglycerine which is has excess oxygen.
By the way, I also think good quality NC will burn without oxygen.
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 05:11 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
i think i'm right because NC burns inside a rifle cartridge but not in the gloves but the key difference able to explain this is the burning surface. i don't have and NC at the moment so i can't test it.
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-18-2001 07:31 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We also dropped it on the floor it continued burn. We then place a clean, empty soup can with one disc missing(like a cup) over top of it and it snuffed itself out in several seconds.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 360
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-19-2001 04:43 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
how nitrated was the NC? or was it commercial grade stuff...i'm really surprised. i'll try that if i can get some NC soon.
[This message has been edited by kingspaz (edited June 19, 2001).]
Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 772
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-19-2001 11:28 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It states above that it was smokeless that was used... so I guess that would be commerically made.
------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"
Agent Blak-------OUT!!
Cricket
Frequent Poster
Posts: 172
From: USA
Registered: OCT 2000
posted 07-14-2001 10:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My NC was from shot shells. And I think that this NC can burn without extra Oxygen because it does in guns. So there is a bit of air in the spaces in the flakes, well air isn't pure Oxygen, and I didn't think that much air would do anything. And if it was burning underwater, would it burn hot enough to separate the Oxygen from Hydrogen? I might make more of this soon. The stuff I had was not all the same (the NC closer to the outside of the jar is thinner and other variables).
PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 07-23-2001 08:24 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No way it will decompose water to do so you need temps over 2000�C; thermite can do the job (3000C), or oxyacetylenic welder torch (3200C) or the plasma created by oxycyanogen welder torch (very toxic gas NC-CN)(4200C).