no_name_available
New Member
Posts: 25
From: germany (?)
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-22-2001 07:01 AM
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hi,
should fresh made and washed Aceton Peroxid swim on the top ?

i made it with 30.8% H2O2, pure aceton and some HCl. the reaction was at non-ideal 37°C, i let it stand overnight - and form bottom to top it was full with these nice white cristals. i neutralized the mixture with more NaOH solution than necessary and then washed it until the ph was 8.

now the AP swims on the top of the ph 8 water. is this normal or says it something about my AP formula, whether it is DCAP or TCAP ?

Thanks for all replies
-nna-



ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-22-2001 02:03 PM
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sorry itt doesnt anwser your ? but you brought up a ? id like to get anwsered.
i used 3% H2O2 for my ap.
my question is what % of the total volume of the final solution should be crystals.
when i first put it in the fridge it made a little then the next day it doubbled then it made a litle more and finaly stop foring crystals. i dont even have 1/15 of the total solutions volume worth of crystals. is that all ill get?


frostfire
Frequent Poster
Posts: 266
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 02:19 PM
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there're always floating crystals and the sinking one, that doesn't matter or determine which is which (all the same)
I speculate the crystal forming process got some to do with cohesion and hence, leaving some floating


a_bab
Frequent Poster
Posts: 44
From: doesn't matter
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 06-22-2001 03:35 PM
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I think that the AP crystals float because of their slow decomposition (if you look at the floating crystals, you'll notice some small gas bubbles, glued to crystals).


kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-22-2001 05:19 PM
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the crystals you have should be the dimer form because of the high temperature you they formed at. i think the crystals float because they formed on the surface like they formed on all the container surfaces below the solution level. the surface of the solution is like anyother surface except it is extremely thin. i think thats right


ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-23-2001 08:46 AM
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some ap will float to the surface when exposed to loght. i found this out yesterday. i opend the frige and the light poped on , i got the ap and stuff was floating to the top. and i though why isnt it all at the top since it was moving rather fast. so i thought might be the heat from my hand OR it might be the light. when i stopped the direct light from toughing the glass with my hand the ap stopped rising then sank back to the bottom. It was kinda cool to mess around with then i got board and put it back in. that might be why some of your ap floats, to much light.


PYRO500
Moderator
Posts: 1465
From: somewhere in florida
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-23-2001 02:22 PM
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Well, I have made AP at night and I have not experienced that effect, H2O2 is sensitive to light but it usualy is stabilized, that sounds like a strange thing happening, where do you get your H2O2 from and does it have a list of stabilizers on it, this sounds unusual though, are you sure you arent bumping the jar with your hand? sometimes when I make ap it collects on the sides near or on the top. then if I make any vibration what so ever, the crystals fall slowly to the bottom just rule out everything first, maybee you touched the side if the jar?


ANTI-SYSTEM
Frequent Poster
Posts: 77
From: FL. USA
Registered: JUN 2001
posted 06-23-2001 10:44 PM
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THats what i thought bout then i tried slowly opening the fidge(when i said i was messing around with it) as not to shake the glass. they did the same thing. i used 3% not 30. and when i blocked the direct light they stopped and began to sink but as soon as i showed them the light they rose agian. Oh well it doesnt realy matter cause the ap worked great today. my first time ever using it too. did 2 .380 with live primer still in. just for that little extra kick. i have picks but they need development so till then look forward to seeing brass shards emmbedded into my docks 4x2's.


no_name_available
New Member
Posts: 25
From: germany (?)
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 06-26-2001 11:01 AM
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the H2O2 contains the stabalizing agent phosphoric acid, i buyed it [the H2O2] at pharmacy.
and no, i didn´t touched the container.
[This message has been edited by no_name_available (edited June 26, 2001).]



kingspaz
Frequent Poster
Posts: 347
From: UK
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 06-26-2001 04:52 PM
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anti-system, i hope your getting the pics developed by a friend or your doing it yourself because the developer place could get suspicious and call the pigs.
i can't wait to see the pics.

Well, when I make HMTD the same thing happens, because loads of little bubbles form in the H2O2 that carry the HMTD up to the surface, where it forms a foam. I havn't noticed this in AP making though.

Anyway, floating explosive or not, it has always worked alright for me in it's applications.

Originally posted by Sonny Jim
I havn't noticed this in AP making though.

Anyway, floating explosive or not, it has always worked alright for me in it's applications.

Well it happened a few times to me, finding all the AP floating over the water and just a little bit down to the bottom, i think is because H2O2 decomposition too, since the Ap looked foamy, anyway worked pretty fine at me, althought i found much bigger cristals than usual.

On a french serious document about energetic materials, I read that DPPP was floating whereas TCAP and DCAP were sinking, these properties were used to separate DPPP (which is suspected to have a VoD of 10km/s at high density) from TCAP and DCAP, doing that by dissolving AP in methanol, then adding enough water to make it precipitate, DPPP floats, others sink.

Would you mind sourcing that document?

Yes, Horrigan. I would be most interested in reading that document too.

Previous experience and research tells me that dimeric AP has a density of less than 1 and trimeric of greater than 1. After making AP, you'll be left with a precipitate on the bottom of the reaction vessel and another floating on the top.

Washing, drying and then re-wetting results in the same proportion of each. (The process is designed to eliminate any bubbles that add to the buoyancy of the precipitate that floats) Similarly indicative, is the fact that the two precipitates burn differently. I forget which was which, but one of the two produces a small but noticeable cloud of black smoke upon ignition. The other just a voluminous flame, but no noticeable smoke.

Here is it: http://www.nuclearcleansing.com/perso/TEP_ME.pdf (this document is French)

Here are the most interesting parts about DPPP, translated:

Diphoronepentaperoxyde (C18H26O12), DPPP, according to its creator, it would have a VoD of 10km/s, that's quite astonishing beacause DPP density is <1.

According to tests, DPPP seems less sensitive than AP.

Heated (I think the author means melted) DPPP explodes violently whereas
TCAP just burns.

A separation method to get pure DPPP had te be done, but TCAP-DCAP and DPPP have the same solubilities in every common solvents.

Solvant-extraction is then impossible, so we'll try density separation:
We prepare a saturated solution of AP-DPPP in methanol
Then we add wated (2x methanol volume), AP and DPPP precipitate immediately, one sink, the other float.

Using Sulfuric acid, it will make DCAP and TCAP, nothing floats, using SnCl2 or SnCl4, it will make TeCAP, nothing floats, so DPPP NEED HCl to be prepared.

Properties:

Name : TeCAP
Formula : C12H24O8
M = 296.2 g/mol
O% = -151.22%
Gaz Volume = 0.908 l/g
Energy = 4373 J/g
Explosive Power = 3970 (147% of Picric Acid)
Temperature = 3638 Kelvin
VOD = 5220 m/s
Products : 12.00 C + 4.00 H2 + 8.00 H2O

Name : DPPP
Formula : C18H26O12
M = 434.2 g/mol
O% = -136.32%
Gaz Volume = 0.671 l/g
Energy = 4355 J/g
Explosive Power = 2922 (108% of Picric Acid)
Temperature = 4174 Kelvin
VOD = 4807 m/s
Products : 18.00 C + 1.00 H2 + 12.00 H2O

So we see that for same densities, TeCAP is more powerful than DPPP.
However, some people say that DPPP can be compressed to reach higher densitites and VoD of about 10 km/s !

I tried melting about 0,05g DPPP on a metal plate, when it exploded, it sounded like a detonation, my ears were buzzed for a few minutes...

While the more reasonable VOD and other properties of DPPP lend support to the validity of this research, I am still skeptical. Many people have attempted a DPPP synth and never have conclusively obtained the desired goal. They have even tested the products with IR Spec.

I don't understand what they mean by "explosive power". Not only that I don't know how they have figured that bot TeCAP and DPPP have more of it than Picric acid. Picric acid has a higher VOD and more gas generated than either of them.

It seems weird to me, too. But the thing is that when I make AP, it's always DPPP, it's the easier to make, just mix acetone, H2O2 at ambiant temparature, and then, add slowly HCl until DPPP precipitates, add more to make the reaction faster, but it must not runaway, else you'll get chloroacetone, a tear gaz.
I always have great yelds with this method.

I always have great yelds with this method.


I think that you are getting great yields of the dimeric form of AP with this method...

While the more reasonable VOD and other properties of DPPP lend support to the validity of this research, I am still skeptical.

I've been following this thread and still wonder; does this material pass muster? Is this factual? As per what I have read DPPP has not successfully been isolated from TCAP....samples declared to be DPPP have no variance from TCAP.....:confused:

I'm with you on that one Charles, I'm not sure what to believe. I've read threads on madscience and many here on rogue, and everyone seems to have a different take on it. It may be real, but I'm very doubtful of a 10km/s VoD with an organic peroxide, especially with such a low density. Maybe in text book conditions or in theory it would work?

If you havn't read the patent, you may want to look there. It lacks important information such as temperatures for the procedure, which leads me to believe it's BS :mad: But I have yet to hear of any success in making DPPP with such a high VoD, just people saying they've come close or they weren't sure. Personally, I've discarded most of it as misinformation.

Hmm, the floating on the top AP is pure dimer, because of the density the trimer always sink to the bottom and dimer float on the top. This make separation very simple, just test the two layers and you see that this on the top is little more sensitive.

How to make more trimer – cool the mixture and materials and use weak acid (I prefer HCL) .

To Chopper,yes – the trimer makes small black cloud of smoke and much sharp crack, which is another prove that trimer form is more powerful then dimer.