Krister
New Member
Posts: 10
From: FIN
Registered: MAY 2001
posted 05-23-2001 09:13 AM
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Or AN + aluminum, anyway...
How simply AN & charcoal (AN: 82 C: 12) mix will ignite?

Does it work?

Sorry about my stupid questions, but this formula sounds so easy that I need to know..

Thanks

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-Krister Knape



PHILOU Zrealone
Frequent Poster
Posts: 479
From: Brussels,Belgium,Europe
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-23-2001 12:25 PM
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Yes it works!
If your reactants are intimately mixed ( flour like texture) and wel dried!
It burns with carbon but not very strongly!
With Al powder, it depends on the grain size and of the process of fabrication of the Al powder! The higher the mesh number the best!


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"Life that deadly disease sexually transmitted".
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10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-23-2001 07:02 PM
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I remember reading about a ammonium nitrate/charcoal mixture used for a gun propellant, I think it was called ammonpulver.
Ammonium nitrate is also used as a rocket propellant mixed with a plastic resin (HTPB), and sometimes aluminum powder.



Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 05-24-2001 06:38 AM
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A few days ago I experimented with some Ammonpulver using the recipe from Makeshift Arsenal.Although my batch was not completely dry when burned it got extremely hot and made a loud whooshing sound.It's a bit hard to light but when going it continues to burn until its all gone.
Maybe it was because my batch was still a little bit wet however I find it hard to believe that it could be used as a gun propellent as I think it would not burn quicker enough.
In the next couple of days I will try it in a small rocket and see if it can propel it.I'll let you know how it performs.
Demolition


Demolition
Frequent Poster
Posts: 158
From: Australia
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 05-24-2001 06:44 AM
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Just thinking,when I tried to make some gunpowder using Ammonium nitrate instead of potassium nitrate it burned quite like what I described in the previous post however it burned quicker(maybe 2-3 times faster).Maybe if a bit of sulfur was added the burn rate could be increased.
Also,does anyone know a formula for gunpowder using Ammonium nitrate instead of potassium nitrate.
Demolition


10fingers
Frequent Poster
Posts: 411
From: USA
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-24-2001 08:59 AM
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I have tried ammonium nitrate mixed with aluminum or charcoal and it did not burn well at all. The ammonium nitrate was ball milled for a day so it was fairly fine, it could have been finer though. It seems that for ammonium nitrate to work as an oxidizer it must be an extremely fine and intimate mixture.
There is a reference in Chemistry of Powder and Explosives about replacing part of the potassium nitrate in gunpowder with ammonium nitrate.


Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-24-2001 10:27 AM
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As I recall it NH4NO3/Charcola was used by the Germans in WWII and it was used in artilary shells; which to my knowledge require a slower propellent than regular firearms


zaibatsu
Frequent Poster
Posts: 407
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-24-2001 01:20 PM
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I believe thats why it was formed into solid blocks, although over 30 degrees C AN goes through a crystal change (something like that) which meant it crumbled, which lead to a larger surface area = higher pressure = BOOM.
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BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-24-2001 05:40 PM
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You can dissolve the mix in water then let evaporate to increase the quality of the product(recrystalization).
The mix has to be stored in air-tight containers until ready for use or the burnrate will be slowed as a result of AN's hygroscpocity.

The propellant's slow burnrate but massive "heaving" power makes it suited for large caliber weapons/cannons.

Because of the AN, the propellant also produces very little smoke and flash.



Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-24-2001 07:18 PM
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So let me get this straight NH4NO3 + Charcoal is Relatively easy to make at home, suited for large calliber weapons, and produces little tell tale signs(smoke/flash). This very nice.
*starts to twitch*
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A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!



sealsix6
Frequent Poster
Posts: 154
From: NYC,NYC,USA
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 05-24-2001 07:53 PM
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In the Improvised Weapons it said to use methyaned spirits is it necessary to use this? and if not what is a good substute for the meth. spirits?


BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 05-24-2001 10:47 PM
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I think what Lowry might have been going for there is that Charcoal doesnt dissolve in water, but it might (I'm not sure) dissolve in Denatured Alcohol (methylated spirits).

hello,
i believe you are talking about amonpulver (can be spelt many different ways) it is a low explosive mixture. the best ratio for it is 80% AN to 20% C. It has the same amount of power in comparison two double base smokless powder containg a fiar amount of nitroglyrien. however it deflagrates way to slow to be used as a high explosive. Can anyone please tell me the website for makeshift aresenal i had it but my computer crashed ages ago and i lost it. i would really apericate any help.
master of the atom
iron raven

Of the DBSPs with varying amounts of NG that you directly compared to Ammonpulver, which would you say was the closest?

Your spelling really is shocking, please take a little more time to write your posts if you can. We're not pretentious scholars here, but it makes you look like a 'tard...

Also, the last line of your sig, is it supposed to read "the great Julius Caesar"?

hello,
I know my spelling isn't very good becouse i used to live in japan so i em not very good at english. It would have acording to my rescourecs around the same power as nitrocelluse which has had nitroglyrien added in about 30% this is only a very crude calculation.
iron raven

Where did you find that it had the same power as DBSP ? That sounds really unlikely.

You can't compare a Low Explosive mix like Ammonpulver to a 30% nitro Smokeless powder. Ammonpulver (technically) could be a HE, considering it is mainly AN, and if Al was added, even more likely. But, as a low explosive, you can't compare.

I will have the Makeshift Arsenal .PDF on my site sooner or later, email me for a copy if you need it now.

I too have seen the reports on ammonpulver, but I cant remember where.

But yes, under confinement (ie. gun barrel) this stuff burns as fast as a smokeless powder with heavy nitro content. The burn rate is heavy dependant on pressure. In the open it burns very slowly - completely unakin BP, whos burn rate is only slightly increased by confinement.

You'd probably find the data in a pyro publication by people like Dr Takeo Shimizu, Weingart, Daves, Lancaster etc.

hello,
gibbonet, why dosen't your site work. When trying to acess explosive and realted it comes up with this warining

Forbidden
You don't have permission to access /~j_gibson/explosives/devices/ on this server.


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Apache/1.3.27 Server at members.dodo.net.au Port 80

plaese tell me why? thank u. Ohh and my ammonpluver works great as a rocket porpllent.
iron raven

It is a problem with not being able to see the root folder on the server, where there is no index.htm page.

Sorry about that, it will be fixed when the site is next uploaded.

Also, Makeshift Arsenal is availiable from my site now, I don't know how long it will last, but while it does, it is here:

MakeShift Arsenal (http://galileo.spaceports.com/~gibbonet/Makeshift_Arsenal.pdf) (1.41Mb PDF)

I'm a new member to this forum. In my experiments with AP, i was disappointed. I use the common mixture of 85% Ammonium Nitrate to 15% powdered carcoal. It worked, but not as well as i thought it would. I was thinking, if i binded the mixture with dextrin, i would get a better blast. Also, i was also thinking of adding an additional oxidizer for a faster rate of decomp.

I originally used the 85%-15% ratio in an aluminium pipe. Would dextrin make a respectable difference, and should i bother adding another oxidizer, such as potassium nitrate?

---Maxwell---

I'm not sure why you're confused, but AP is NOT a low explosive mixture of AN and Charcoal. AN = Ammonium Nitrate, AP = Acetone Peroxide, (also known by a few othe names) AP is a sensitive primary explosive, something I doubt you should be playing with if you don't know the difference.

Here's the section from the Makeshift Arsenal:



Ammonpulver:

Ammonpulver is a German name given to a low explosive fuel oxidiser mix containing solely ammonium nitrate and charcoal,this composition contains an enourmous amount of energy for a simple physical mix with power close to that of double base powder containing a considerable amount of nitroglycerine.

However, even though it contains the energy, its burn rate is slow and therefore is not suitable for bursting explosives. Possible uses for this explosive are big bore gun propelant and rocket fuel. It has advantages over blackpowder in this role because of the increased energy, flashless and emits only a small amount of blueish smoke.

To make this composition -

finely powder ammonium nitrate and willow charcoal to as finer consistancy as possible (finer the faster and more efficient) and mix to a ratio of 8 parts AN to 2 parts charcoal.

Once thougherly mixed add methylated spirits until it clings together like thick mud. strain this paste between two flat surfaces and leave to dry.. If your in the colder wetter months of the year dont bother as it will never dry.

Once hard break it up into small granules and its ready to use.



That should answer all your questions, all I can add is:

Bind with Methylated spirits like said, don't use anything else, but if it burns too slow, then it's probably worth making a different LE altogether, that is fast enough for your purposes. Blackpowder isn't too hard. Search on the forum for that sort of info, and you'll have all you need.

You could add another oxidiser, I don't see any reason why it would not work, but if you can add Potassium Nitrate like you mention, and you're using charcoal, then you only need sulphur (very easy to find) and you should be making blackpowder.

I recently detonated about 2 kilos of AN/lampblack mix with a bit of a diesel fuel and it worked perfectly. I used 200 g ANNM as booster (maybe a little bit too much, as failures are not an option :cool:)
I guess that lampblack can be used instead charcoal for ammonpulver, H3, and other mixes (maybe BP) with almost the same results.

Uggh... Acronyms can be so annoying. "AP" can stand for acetone peroxide, ammonium picrate, or in this case AmmonPulver.