WhiteNinja
New Member
Posts: 15
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-04-2001 07:45 PM
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Hi folks!
I want to make smoke bombs but I want special qualitys for those smoke bombs:
- The smoke screen shows up quickly
- I don't have to light anything
So I was wondering if Saltpetre and Sugar blows up quick enough to produce a thick smoke cloud fast... (Like 1-2 seconds)

Next, I was wondering if I could use touch explosives (As described in the A.C.B.) to ignit my smokebombs.

I want to throw my smokebombs and when they touch the ground, I want them to ignit.

Is this possible?
Thanks in advance,
WhiteNinja



endotherm
Frequent Poster
Posts: 164
From: dunno
Registered: JAN 2001
posted 04-04-2001 08:34 PM
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i heard zinc/sulfur burns very quickly, like (blackpowder)and produces a lot of smoke, but saltpetere and sugar probably burns too slow for your purpose


CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-04-2001 09:30 PM
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You said you don't want to have to light it... how is it going to start to burn? you maybe might be able to make the smoke bomb into a dart type thing and place a primer or cap from a cap gun on the tip so when you throw it and the tip hits it will go off, and in turn light your composition.
------------------
...Æ



WhiteNinja
New Member
Posts: 15
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-04-2001 09:53 PM
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Crag,
Yes that's the type of thing I'm actually talking about. But I would like to light the thing with something that explose with friction...
/////\\\\\
//####\\
//####\\
//¯¯¯¯¯\\
//*****\\
/////\\\\\

/\ = Container
# = Smoke producter
¯¯= Something to separate
*= Friction explosive (Would produce the fire to light the smoke producter)

Any way to do this? so I could just throw the thing on any of it's side and with friction it makes when touching the ground, the bomb would explose even if it is not on the right side

(Actually, the device would be more spherical)

Regards,
WhiteNinja

[This message has been edited by WhiteNinja (edited April 04, 2001).]



SMAG 12B/E5
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Posts: 61
From:
Registered: FEB 2001
posted 04-04-2001 11:40 PM
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Sulfuric acid ignition of KClO3 and sucrose is not difficult to construct. A red phosphorus scratch surface with a matching KClO3 and antimony sulfide and dextrin surface would not be difficult to fabricate. If the device can be stabilized in flight, percussion cap ignition would be easy.


WhiteNinja
New Member
Posts: 15
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-04-2001 11:48 PM
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I don't know if it would be possible for you, Smag, to do it, but I'm more a visual person so if you could draw something or make an ASCII design of what you are talking about, it would be more representative for me...
I'm a newbie at this stuff and all I want to make are some small smoke bombs (Maybe something like ping-pong ball sized bombs) that would ignite as soon as they touch the ground and would show create a short-lasting dense smoke screen... Those balls would be thrown near me (Maybe something like 2-3 meters away) in an angle that I would shoot them directly to the ground. (Not shooting them so they make a balloon in the air - straight to the ground)

You can see those type of effects in movies but they are quite effective when distracting someone... (Thrown just in front of the person, the guy normally stops wandering what's happening giving me the chance to run away or hide myself somewhere temporarly)

Thanks,
WhiteNinja



Agent Blak
Frequent Poster
Posts: 766
From: Sk. Canada
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-05-2001 12:30 AM
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Try this...
Cyclopes

This is an idea that has been around for a long time, I just put a new spin on it, and have
come up with a few new ways to improve it. I first heard of these devices from my
grandmother(Grandma Blak), she told me of these things my cousin use to make. They were these
black balls, that would explode when thrown on a hard surface. My father took the liberty of
explaining how they were made. I simply took what he told me, and inovated on it. These devices
will make it so you can get out of a sticky situation easier. They provide a distraction, a scare,
and gives the prusuer a difficulty seeing you, because of the Flash or Smoke). These devices are
best when used at night. Now on to the good stuff.

These devices are very simple to make, and the materials are pretty easy to get a hold of.
There are 2 types of cyclopes' that I will discuss: Flash and Smoke.

First we'll talk about the Flash Cyclopes. For the "Flash Cyclopes" you will need one box of
250 "Strike Anywhere" matches, or "RedBirds." 1/2 a Teaspoon of Black Powder, or Pyredex. 1/2 a
Teaspoon of Magnesium(Mg)(I used one of those fire starters from the camping store.) A drill or a
file, Plastic Wrap, and a roll of electrical tape.

Next, using a pair of Side-Cutters, clip off the match heads and discard the sticks. After you
have clipped all the match heads, place them in the center, on a piece of plastic wrap. Then on a
sheet of news paper, or waxed paper, mix the 1/2 teaspoon of pyredex and, 1/2 teaspoon of
Magnesium filings. After that, add to the heap of match heads to it.

Now, gather all the Plastic Wrap together, and twist it tightly together.With a small piece of
tape, secure it so it wont un-twist itself. Then, cut off the majority of the excess Plastic Wrap.
This keeps all the matches and powder together.(note: I used Pyredex/Mg you could try substituting
it with your favorite flash powder instead.)

Finially, using your electrical tape, tape up the packet tightly by stretching the tape. The
tighter you tape it, the better it will perform. Make sure you wrap it quite well, try to keep it
as close to round as possible. Somtimes mine end up slightly eggshaped, but they still work.

Now we will discuss "Smoke Cyclopes." Smoke Cyclopes', you guessed it, produce Smoke. They do
not produce as much smoke as the "Exploding Stlye Smoke Device," but they work good when you don't
have as much time to get put of really sticky situaltions fast. You will need 125(1/2 a box) of
Strike Anywhere matches, or "Redbirds." 1/2 a teaspoon of Pryedex or Black Powder, Plastic Wrap.
1/2-2/3 of a cup of Fast burning Smoke powder, and some Electrical Tape.

Now, just like for the flash cyclopes you must clip 125 match heads off the match stick. Place
the match heads in the center of the Plastic Wrap, add a 1/2 a Teaspoon of Pryedex to the match
heads. Gather up all the plastic wrap, and twist it tightly around the match heads and the powder.
Secure it with a small piece of tape and trim off the excess.

Next, Place 1/2-2/3 of a cup of "Smoke Powder" in the center of a sheet of plastic wrap. Then
Place the Match Head/Pyredex packet in the center. Gather up all the the Plastic Wrap and twist it
tightly around the Powder, taking care that the match head/pyredex packet it in the center. Secure
it with a small piece of tape, and trim off the excess.

Finially, using your electrical tape, tape the packet tightly by stretching the tape. The
tighter you tape it the better it will preform. Make sure you wrap it quite well. Try to keep it
as round as you can, but sometime they go eggshaped.

Cyclopes are best to keep ready in a hidden pocket, and where they are easily excessible. They
are great for those sticky situations. They are primarily for evasion and escape. They could
probabley be used to gain the upper hand in an attack or to be used if you want to do the old "Hit
and Run". They must be thown sharply, at a hard surface. Be careful not to start fires, and these
are not Water Proof, but are water resistant. I hope this will make a great addition to your
Arsenel of Weapons and Tools.


------------------
A wise man once said:
"...There Will Be No
Stand Off At High Noon
... Shoot'em In The Back
And, Shoot'em In The Dark"

Agent Blak-------OUT!!



BoB-
Frequent Poster
Posts: 679
From:
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-05-2001 02:27 AM
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"Next, I was wondering if I could use touch explosives (As described in the A.C.B.) to ignit my smokebombs."
Mentioning the Anarchist cookbook in this forum will get your ass punked by a moderator.

The Anarchist CookBook is bullshit.

A primary high explosive (Touch explosives, as you descibed them) would never ignite anything, it would more than likely spread your smoke mix and and casing everywhere at high velocity and ignite nothing.

Anything using primary explosive's can only be called "Acme Hand Remover 2000".




WhiteNinja
New Member
Posts: 15
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-05-2001 07:18 AM
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Bob,
I'm sorry for the Anarchist Cook Book thing... I'm really new to this and all I wanted were some smoke bombs and some flash bombs to get out of sticky situations quickly
. Bare with me, I'm a newbie... Now that I know it, I won't talk about it anymore.
Thanks for the tip bob!

Agent Blak, thank you for the device you explained... That's actually what I was looking for... I'ma try them as soon as possible...

Thanks guys,
WhiteNinja

P.S.: Where can I get Pyredex?



Crux
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-05-2001 07:27 AM
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Agent Blak where might one find strike anywhere matches?
i've heard of them alot but have never seen anywhere to get them.
is it posible to some how turn normal matches into strike anywhere?



richl261
Frequent Poster
Posts: 134
From: uk
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-05-2001 11:06 AM
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crux..strike anywhere matches are the ones with a red top, just buy them in a newsagents/happy shopper/ where ever for about 10p....
ah, where do u live?



J
Moderator
Posts: 602
From: United Kingdom
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-05-2001 02:08 PM
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Crux, are you seriously saying you can't get strike anywhere matches???
Whiteninja, I suggest you experiment with the smoke compositions before making anything shock/friction sensitive if you're new to pyro. Also, consider that something made to be shock/friction sensitive will happily go off in your hand/pocket if anything bumps against it.

What happens if you slip over and your pocket of explosives hits the ground? What happens if you get into a fight in one of these sticky situations and get pushed over or your pocket is hit?

I'm not trying to put you off, just be aware of all the risks.

J

------------------
"If the aquarium water has to be drunk don't waste the fish. In fact they'll probably be the easiest to eat even if you don't need the water. The cat is next in the pot." - John 'Lofty' Wiseman



WhiteNinja
New Member
Posts: 15
From:
Registered: APR 2001
posted 04-05-2001 04:44 PM
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J, that's what I'm going to do... I'm going to test the explosives before carrying anything on me. Tests I will make will be like dropping a smoke bomb from some height and see at which height the bomb ignits so I could get a good idea of what it takes to ignite it.
Be sure that I'm aware of the dangers... While I was young, I had some experiences with bombs and one time, an homemade bomb explosed in my hand and my hand was full of blood so I'll be very careful...

Thanks,
WhiteNinja



Crux
Frequent Poster
Posts: 71
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-05-2001 08:28 PM
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I live in australia the the biggest sellers we have are called "red heads" (because they have a red head) and there safty matches.
i've only ever seen satfy matches hear... maybe we have some fucked up law saying we can not have them..
I dunno if any Aussies out there know if we have them can you let me know


CragHack
Frequent Poster
Posts: 618
From:
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-05-2001 08:45 PM
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in contrast, i have only used strike anywhere matches with white heads... an enigma if i have ever experianced one. IT BLOWS MY MIND!!!!
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...Æ



SATANIC
Frequent Poster
Posts: 237
From: australia
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-05-2001 09:28 PM
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I have also never seen strike anywhere matches. (apart from antique british ones in antique shops) I use reheads and paradise matches (imported from PNG)
which are better to use as they light easier.


Anthony
Moderator
Posts: 2306
From: England
Registered: SEP 2000
posted 04-06-2001 02:23 PM
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Wow! I can't belive you guys can't get both kinds of matches!
Here, strike anywhere matches have red heads and there is a strip of sandpaper down the side of the box.

Safety matches have purple heads and there is strip of purple stuff down the side of the box. Sometimes the striker strip is quite dark and very smooth, sometimes it's a pattern of raised diamond shapes.

Strike anywhere matches are certainly easier to strike.



firebreether
Frequent Poster
Posts: 110
From:
Registered: NOV 2000
posted 04-06-2001 03:12 PM
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The matches I'm used to are the red heads, that you strike on the box. White tips are the strike anywheres. Except I don't use matches. I have my fav. lighter. It looks like a wrench but it is a lighter and refillable. And I wouldn't make impact explosives. I have no need for them, I like to light a fuse and throw.


richl261
Frequent Poster
Posts: 134
From: uk
Registered: MAR 2001
posted 04-07-2001 05:00 PM
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yeah, impact explosives are a bit dodgy if youre not too careful.. hehe


blackadder
Frequent Poster
Posts: 313
From: London
Registered: DEC 2000
posted 04-07-2001 05:49 PM
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If you're in england, and looking for strike anywhere matches, get the "swan" brand, they come in yellow boxes with a red cover. I can even light them on glass, hehe. They are also shock sensitive, if you put them on top of a sheet of metal, and smack the match with a hammer or brick, it makes a small popping sound and explodes.
Whiteninja, you probably have seen me on the previous forum that you were on (I was flaming everyone), abandon that forum, this one is WAY better, besides, that one only has idiots talking shit about detonating C4 with black powder. You have made the very good move from a kewl to a real pyro. Don't tell any of the dicks at that forum about this one, they will come here and talk shit.

Just make a Potassium Nitrate Smoke bomb. It is melted, so you won't need a container. Put a fuse in it then pour Ethyl Alcohol over one side where the fuse is. Then take a capsule, empty it out and put Chromic Anhydride crystals inside it. Glue the capsule back together with a really strong, waterproof glue. Dip the capsule in water to make it weaker, but not too much to make it break. Take tape and tape the capsule to the smoke bomb on the side with the alcohol. Throw the smoke bomb so that the capsule breaks. The crystals will react with the alcohol and cause a fire, which will light the fuse, which will start the smoke. If you want smoke fast, make a short fuse dipped in alcohol. If you are worried about it lighting in your pocket, just tape the capsule on your shirt or something and when you need smoke, get out the smoke bomb, peel the capsule off of your shirt and stick it on the smoke bomb. You could even mix the crystals in with the smoke bomb mixture and tape a water balloon filled with ethyl alcohol on it. Or put ethyl alcohol in a squirt gun and throw the smoke bomb and squirt the smoke bomb when it lands.

I saw a site with this on it once it went something like this. Take Kno3+Sugar and make a 70/30 smoke bomb (so it burns quicker) and then wrap it in those roll cap's after that take a piece of tape and make a small line with black powder or something that ignites with low heat and burns fairly fast but leave the edges of the tape clear so it still sticks now wrap it around your clump of smoke mixture then just toss it at the ground and it *SHOULD* ignite.

I made one of those last summer. It worked very nicely and I didn't have to throw it too hard.It also doesn't put out too much smoke to fast but you could fiddle with the ratios to make it faster.

Heh thanks Rhadon...I could have been the next star wars kid :(

The faster burning ratios always seem to give off less smoke. I dont know, it could just be me though. 55/45 melted together is IMO the best out there.

What warren is talking about is shown here:
http://krimzonpyro.com/rat/smoke/impactsb.html

NickSG,

faster burns are always cleaner, hence less smoke. The really heavy, dense smoke is a long chain hydrocarbon. Hydrocarbon based stuff that gets hot burns, and the smoke is from incomplete combustion. If it burns hotter, it will react (burn) with the air, and become less opaque, as it is now a shorter chain. Eventually, it will get so hot that the result is just carbon dioxide and water, which is almost invisible.

The military normally make cheap smokescreens by injecting diesel into the hot exhaust pipe of the truck, etc. which gives a thick white smoke.

The black smoke can be carbon particles as well, though, as with a bad diesel engine exhaust.

A brief flick through Chemical Formulary Vol. III provided these two mixtures:

Orange Smoke
U.S. Patent 1,975,785
A pyrotechnic composition for producing orange smoke, comprises lead peroxide 50 parts, potassium bichromate 35 parts, and magnesium 15 parts.

Brown Smoke
U.S. Patent 1,975,099
A pyrotechnic composition for producing brown smoke, comprises copper oxide 50 parts, lead peroxide 35 parts, and magnesium 15 parts.

NB - Lead peroxide is also called Lead dioxide, which I think is used in some sort of battery. Potassium bichromate is also known as Potassium dichromate, and is sometimes used in photography. Of course, if you live in the States, you can get all these through Skylighter.

Lead compounds are poisonous, so I wouldn't recommend deliberately inhaling the smoke :rolleyes:

EDIT - Vulture, the book that I've got was printed in the 1930s, and the way in which chemicals are named has probably changed now.

The book also yielded two Military Smoke Screen formulas, although without patent numbers.

Formula No. 1
Zinc Dust 25
Carbon Tetrachloride 50
Zinc Oxide 20
Kieselguhr 5

Formula No.2
Zinc Dust 28
Hexachlorethane 50
Zinc Oxide 22

Kieselguhr is “a soft, bulky, solid material (88% silica) composed of skeletons of small prehistoric aquatic plants related to algae (diatoms).” –
http://www.books.md/K/dic/kieselguhr.php
It is used in wine and beermaking to remove sediment. Wine is filtered through a layer of kieselguhr.

Carbon tetrachloride may be difficult to obtain nowadays, as it is a probable carcinogen.

Dichromate compounds are toxic and nasty carcinogens too.

I'm sorry that I'm pointing this out AGAIN, but PbO2 is NOT a peroxide.

Lead peroxide would look like this: Pb--O--O--Pb which is impossible.

The correct formula for PbO2 is: O=Pb=O

Has anyone experimented with the zinc oxide/hexachloroethane smoke mixtures? They produce alot of thick white smoke, and apparently its what the army uses in their smoke greandes.

I don't say anything about the composition used to make smoke, but I've read on the net about a smoke granade used in air soft. In that, the ignition was made with two normal safety matches and two of those strips where you strike it. The system was those strips and some wire glued together and put between matches. Then there was some rubberband-like thing around strips and matches. Whole thing was glued on the bottom of the granade. Finally, there was some saran wrap around it to prevent the "fuel" going between matches and strips. Then the smoke-making composition were poured in and lit was put on place so that wire came through it. Final step was to bend the wire in circular form, so it could easily be ripped off.

The Finnish page is:
http://www.airsoftcentteri.com/naprays/savukranaatti.shtml

Well, I know that it isn't really what was originally asked for, but now you don't need to make any touch explosives or find strike anywher-matches

I recently started getting into smoke bombs, and a bit of reading turned up probably the best easily improvised make-at-home composition to be had:
KNO3/Sugar/candle wax
~50/50 KNO3:Sugar
~3:1 KNO3/sugar:wax

The only complaint I have about this pretty impressive comp. is that it needs to be kept from oxygen in the immediate vicinity of the burning mix. If the vaporized wax hits the atmosphere at too high a temp., it simply burns, and you get precisely fuck all smoke.
But when properly shielded, e.g. by placing the comp at the bottom of a metal can, closing the top, and poking holes for the gases to escape, quite a lot of smoke can be produced. At least definitely more than with standard KNO3/Sugar mixtures.
However, the shielding doesn't always work too well and the condensed wax particles tend to ignite.

But fear not...

Via the scientifically tried and true method of screwing around, I found that: By wrapping the comp., and appropriate fuse, in Al foil, then placing in the metal can, not only can your smoke bomb be manhandled without fear of the comp. spilling out, but the foil effectively prevents the wax from igniting when formerly (without foil wrapping) it caught fire almost every time.

I got the sugar-nitrate-wax idea from the APC forum originally, but nobody as of yet has proposed a suitable means for preventing the wax from igniting. So the above idea is my proposal for curing that.

Has anyone else had any experience with these devices. I've found them to be pretty fun. But they make a shitload of smoke! A 130g device goes on for a couple of minutes, and a whole lot of smoke comes off.

One thing that bothers me about this mix is that it's rather slow burning, so whenever there's any kind of breeze, the smoke is significantly thinner. I was wondering if anyone could propose an alternate mixture to combine with the wax, so the resultant smoke cloud is much denser.
Any ideas, keeping in mind that faster normally means hotter, and hotter means more chance of ignition.
Early on in my experiments, I ended up adding NaHCO3 to the mix until tests showed no flame when a mixture without wax was ignited in the open. But this slows the burn rate right down and thinned out my smoke cloud a bit.

I recently made a small (5-6g) batch of the sugar/sulfur/blackpowder smoke mixture, but when I burned it, it smelled really bad. (probably the fault of the sulfur) I was wondering if I could either use something in place of the sulfur, or just not use it at all and run sugar/blackpowder and no sulfur?

You could add some Mg, that should increase the burn rate and in turn the smoke output. Never tried that mix but it sounds like it should work

That's an idea Cyclonite, I'll give it a try next time I work up the courage to sit for a while a grate some candles (somewhat tedious and messy).
My only concern is about temp: if I have burning Mg in my Al foil, it might start burning the Al, which would then ignite my wax cloud. Last time I set one off it was at night and I saw the tin can I use to hold the mix in start to glow red from the heat.
that being said, I'm sure I can rustle up a touch Mg powder, and well, we ARE here to mess around and try new things last time I checked...

My next experiment (theoretical of course), once I've tried Cyclonite's Mg idea, is to attempt to increase the burn rate, not of the comp., but of the whole device:
In the 'Increasing Brisance Idea' thread, NBK said something which might be applicable here: he said (paraphrased): burning a candle at both ends makes it burn twice as bright, but half as long.
Now it'd be a mission of note to try and get a straw filled with KNO3/Sugar to ignite both ends of a packet of foil while inside a crimped tin can simultaneously; BUT, what I can do is fill my straw with a faster burning mixture (maybe badly made blackpowder) and have the straw go through the length of the foil packet, igniting as much as possible in the shortest possible time.
I'm thinking of rolling the comp. in the Al foil into roughly a cylinder shape, and put the fuze down the centre, in contact with as much of the mix as possible.
Hopefully I can get the entire mix to burn in a shorter space of time, thus making all the smoke, in a shorter period of time too, i.e. thicker smoke!
Plus, as an added bonus, it won't take almost a minute and a half for 100g of comp. to burn away. Always a concern when someone might walk by or call the fire department.

Firstly, I know the thread is a bit old.

For impact smoke grenade use two ziploc bags,
one with calcium hypochlorite, and one with I
think is was car antifreeze (ethylene glycol).

Put in in a pvc pipe with caps. Drill holes in the
caps to let out the smoke.

or

same thing except that only the with the antifreeze
in a ziploc and a nail inside to puncture the bag.

2 calcium : 3 antifreeze

At the moment I can't be bothered to use stoichiometry - to tired

I'm not getting the whole impact ignition thing for the first set-up you mentioned. Are one of the bags meant to be open to allow for the chem.s to mix?

On another note, I hadn't thought about using something like PVC piping to keep oxygen out, not a bad idea.

As for the anti-freeze, there are plenty of liquids that will ignite without a flame on contact with calcium hypochlorite. I've had successes (if you can call a mixture you're making up suddenly catching fire right next to you a success...) with brake fluid; algaecide; milk; I'm sure some others I can't remember. Gasoline and HTH doesn't ignite spontaneously though, but it burns really violently though. Lots of crackling. Make's me happy at the thought of it's potential.

While I'm on the calcium hypochlorite bandwagon:
There was a L.E. mix I read about somewhere and tried out:
Ca(OCl)2 + S
I think the ratio was 7:1 IIRc.
It's very violent, has a nice red flame, and puts out a lot of bad smelling smoke.

Inventorgp, can you give me a few more details about the workings of your impact device. Things that you don't have to fiddle around with matches etc. to get going generally interest me (except when it comes to synth.s)

Hi me234,

I'll upload a pic of the second method, colours are:
Yellow = Calcium hyplocholite
Green = anti freeze in ziploc
Gray = nail (the 6in blunt type)
Black circles = holes/vents

http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=795&d=1151065655


if it dosen't show up
http://www.roguesci.org/theforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=795&d=1151065655

The ziploc should (don't have to) have a tiny
dab of glue to the side to prevent accidental ignition.

The nail is about an half inch/inch away from the bag.


With the first method it was two bags next to each other,
so when thrown hard enough they'll burst.

Or you could put a bag of anti freeze inside of a bag
full of HTH.

Does anyone else know any HTH formulas

That L.E. is interesting, I might try it!

EDIT: link + works

EDIT:Can't get attachment showing, Please help.