rjche
March 1st, 2003, 10:56 PM
In searching Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide the only hit on this forum was a post asking how to make tin tetrachloride, which the author mentioned he wanted to use to make tetrameric acetone peroxide.
Finding nothing on Tet AP, I thought a chemical reference to it may be of acedemic interest. It is easily made as are the other AP's,and of course uses tin tetrachloride in place of the acid used to make trimeric AP with 30% HP and acetone.
The article from Journal of Chemical Research is posted on a tripod site in PDF form. The pdf copy of the journal article is at:
<a href="http://aaronewf.tripod.com/downloads/TetramericAcetonePeroxide.pdf" target="_blank">http://aaronewf.tripod.com/downloads/TetramericAcetonePeroxide.pdf</a>
It of course lists many references to AP articles for someone having access to a research chem library.
This quote from that article caught my attention:
"Although relatively safe to handle Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide like almost all substances containing peroxide bonds, should be handled cautiously; it is very explosive if it is struck firmly or fired."
That hints that it may be less sensitive to friction etc than Trimeric Acetone Peroxide, and may have more energy since more bonds may be involved in the decomposition.
Another quote that author made as to Dimeric AP suggests it may not be a contamination product of the usual aqueous mfg of Trimeric AP:
"Dimeric and Trimeric Acetone Peroxide have been thouroughly studied many years ago (9). For example Dimeric Acetone Peroxide was obtained by treating acetone with H2SO5 in diethyl ether, while Trimeric Acetone Peroxide was obtained by reacting acetone with aqueous hydrogen peroxide in the absence or presence of HCl. Another method of preparation of Trimeric Acetone Peroxide is by autoxidation of diisopropyl ether with molecular oxygen.(10)"
The above suggests that Dimeric is not all that easy to make and it is unlikely that an accomplished chemist would have failed to state that Dimeric is also made by reacting acetone with aqueous Hydrogen Peroxide, if that was known to be possible to him. Instead he mentions that it must be made by the more difficult method stated above.
The above reference to H2SO5, rather than H2SO4 may be the source of some posts around the net saying that the dimer is made if sulfuric acid is used. They may have misread the reference to require oxysulfuric instead of sulfuric.
If so, then dimeric does not contaminate aqueous prepared trimeric AP.
While on the subject of sensitivity, I will mention that a comment on alt engr expl said that Trimeric AP contains occluded in its crystals about 30 % water immediately after forming, and that water desensitizes it for a while. After it sits in dry environment for days that water slowly dissipates, leaving the TAP much more sensitive than it is after "drying" a fresh batch.
I have no confirmation of this, and saw no other posts relating to that. It would be wise to store some TAP in say dry 120 F temp for a few days, and test a small sample to see if it increases in sensitivity. Another way would be to store some in a dessicator over any drying agent that could pull humidity down to near zero, with a 100 F temp or so, then test it.
Anyone actually fooling with AP ought do that for self protection.
It appears to be quite safe to handle to those posting on several forums who claim to have made it and used it. It is possible that none of them kept it long enough for the above claimed increase in sensitivity to occur.
That could be a serious matter which any investigator ought prove or disprove before getting too cozy with AP. I have found it's quite hard to seperate hype from facts on the subject of AP. Hype can block experimentation or in some cases it can kill... One ought be very careful not to hype knowingly. I ran across a foreign news article on a coroner campaigning for classifying explosives forums same as porn forums because a 17 year old horticulture student was packing AP into a pipe with a steel ramrod, and it killed him. He had read about kewl bomb making on some site and didn't have the sense to avoid whacking steel on steel with explosives between. He got hyped we might say. Too brief a discussion, lack of knowledge, and ignorance of what lack of knowledge can lead to, when dealing with powerful things, was the kid's downfall. It's a very common fault of young persons. I had a good dose of it, but luckily lived.
<small>[ March 01, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: rjche ]</small>
Finding nothing on Tet AP, I thought a chemical reference to it may be of acedemic interest. It is easily made as are the other AP's,and of course uses tin tetrachloride in place of the acid used to make trimeric AP with 30% HP and acetone.
The article from Journal of Chemical Research is posted on a tripod site in PDF form. The pdf copy of the journal article is at:
<a href="http://aaronewf.tripod.com/downloads/TetramericAcetonePeroxide.pdf" target="_blank">http://aaronewf.tripod.com/downloads/TetramericAcetonePeroxide.pdf</a>
It of course lists many references to AP articles for someone having access to a research chem library.
This quote from that article caught my attention:
"Although relatively safe to handle Tetrameric Acetone Peroxide like almost all substances containing peroxide bonds, should be handled cautiously; it is very explosive if it is struck firmly or fired."
That hints that it may be less sensitive to friction etc than Trimeric Acetone Peroxide, and may have more energy since more bonds may be involved in the decomposition.
Another quote that author made as to Dimeric AP suggests it may not be a contamination product of the usual aqueous mfg of Trimeric AP:
"Dimeric and Trimeric Acetone Peroxide have been thouroughly studied many years ago (9). For example Dimeric Acetone Peroxide was obtained by treating acetone with H2SO5 in diethyl ether, while Trimeric Acetone Peroxide was obtained by reacting acetone with aqueous hydrogen peroxide in the absence or presence of HCl. Another method of preparation of Trimeric Acetone Peroxide is by autoxidation of diisopropyl ether with molecular oxygen.(10)"
The above suggests that Dimeric is not all that easy to make and it is unlikely that an accomplished chemist would have failed to state that Dimeric is also made by reacting acetone with aqueous Hydrogen Peroxide, if that was known to be possible to him. Instead he mentions that it must be made by the more difficult method stated above.
The above reference to H2SO5, rather than H2SO4 may be the source of some posts around the net saying that the dimer is made if sulfuric acid is used. They may have misread the reference to require oxysulfuric instead of sulfuric.
If so, then dimeric does not contaminate aqueous prepared trimeric AP.
While on the subject of sensitivity, I will mention that a comment on alt engr expl said that Trimeric AP contains occluded in its crystals about 30 % water immediately after forming, and that water desensitizes it for a while. After it sits in dry environment for days that water slowly dissipates, leaving the TAP much more sensitive than it is after "drying" a fresh batch.
I have no confirmation of this, and saw no other posts relating to that. It would be wise to store some TAP in say dry 120 F temp for a few days, and test a small sample to see if it increases in sensitivity. Another way would be to store some in a dessicator over any drying agent that could pull humidity down to near zero, with a 100 F temp or so, then test it.
Anyone actually fooling with AP ought do that for self protection.
It appears to be quite safe to handle to those posting on several forums who claim to have made it and used it. It is possible that none of them kept it long enough for the above claimed increase in sensitivity to occur.
That could be a serious matter which any investigator ought prove or disprove before getting too cozy with AP. I have found it's quite hard to seperate hype from facts on the subject of AP. Hype can block experimentation or in some cases it can kill... One ought be very careful not to hype knowingly. I ran across a foreign news article on a coroner campaigning for classifying explosives forums same as porn forums because a 17 year old horticulture student was packing AP into a pipe with a steel ramrod, and it killed him. He had read about kewl bomb making on some site and didn't have the sense to avoid whacking steel on steel with explosives between. He got hyped we might say. Too brief a discussion, lack of knowledge, and ignorance of what lack of knowledge can lead to, when dealing with powerful things, was the kid's downfall. It's a very common fault of young persons. I had a good dose of it, but luckily lived.
<small>[ March 01, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: rjche ]</small>