i recently found in the back of a cupboard some old chlorate in jar. i remembered that it was from a while back when i was experimenting with making potassium chlorate. i had a feelin it was pretty impure, but to make sure i tried it anyway. i ground some up and mixed it with a ratio of 5:1 by volume with sulfur (i was only testing it so i couldnt be bothered weighing it, and sulfur was the only fuel i had on hand). I made a large pile, fused it, lit it and stood back. it burned with a flame and poured out oceans and oceans of disgusting choking sufurous fumes and i very quickly got the hell away from it. from about a 1 and 1/2 teaspoons of the stuff i got a HUGE volume of the smoke and the little bit i inhaled had me coughing and hacking for about an hour or so afterwards.
i was wondering if this would have any practical application, if i could work out the ratio to use with proper chlorate to get the same effect. if oyu could light and drop a cannister of this, you could easilly gain enough time to escape from anyone chasing you. i wouldnt even want to think about what would happen if you lobbed it in through the window of a small room full of people!

very interresting ! I nerver tested chlorate and sulfur because many guys said it's pretty unstable but I will try this one with a few quantity !

What are the smoke produced by the combustion ?

see ya !

Maybe off topic but anyway,

I did some tests with Zn compositions, with BP it burns with huge amounts of thick, white some(with 1gram, i setted my lab full of smoke) So i guess Zn in smoke bombs will work super! Now, i have a Digital cam so i do some tests with it.

sorry for going off topic, i will start a new topic about Zn.

What got you hacking is sulphur dioxide. It works best when the S is in excess in the mixture 5:1 NaClO3/S is too much oxidiser. Strictly, you shouldn't use mixtures containing chlorates and sulphur die to incompatability issues.

That stuff is pretty good considering you can pick the ingredients up cheaply just about anywhere, it works wonders on asmatics too :)

I remember hearing that exposure to sulphur dioxide can cause nose bleeds for no apparent reason up to two weeks later. This would explain cases where I've had nose bleeds, but I couldn't say for sure that the SO2 was the cause.

If you want to make it really nasty, you should work out the oxygen balanced ratio for the chlorate/S mix and than add 25% of KNO3 extra.
When it burns the chlorate will decompose first and deliver the oxygen for the S to combust, while the KNO3, being a weaker oxidizer, will decompose somewhat later and simply produce NOx.
Some of the NOx will oxidize the SO2 to SO3, which forms sulfuric acid in contact with the mucous (sp?) membranes and lungs of the victim, while the rest of the NOx will oxidize to NO2 in contact with atmospheric oxygen. Now you have a nice mix of SO2, SO3 and NO2.... inhale deeply... :D

we shouldn'r forget this mix is sensitive and prone to spontaneous ingnition due to the following:
H+ + ClO3- <=> HClO3 = boom...the H+ being provided by oxides of sulphur reacting with mositure to form acidic conditions.
i think a good idea to make this mix much safer would be the addition of 10% vaseline to coat all the powder reducing friction and also to make is pressable so less prone to initiation by friction if the particles cannot move.

So, In other words : what is the best ratio ? (with vaseline)

Actually, the reason for spontaneous ignition is similar to what you said, but not exactly the same. :)

The sulfur oxidizes, forming trace quantities of sulfur dioxide (which departs from the composition immediately, due to it being a gas). Sulfur trioxide, however, remains. The sulfur trioxide will react with a chlorate. For example:

2KClO3 + SO3 --> K2SO4 + Cl2O5

Cl2O5 is *extremely* unstable and decomposes explosively immediately upon formation.

2Cl2O5 --> 4ClO2 + O2

ClO2 is also explosive.

2ClO2 --> Cl2 + 2O2

That's also why chlorates explode upon contact with concentrated sulfuric acid.

2KClO3 + H2SO4 --> 2HClO3 + K2SO4
2HClO3 + [SO4]-2 --> Cl2O5 + [SO4]-2*H2O

And then, of course, the Cl2O5 decomposes explosively, as explained above.

lookin back on that it was probably pretty stupid mixing sulphur with an impure chlorate that had been in a drawer for the the last X months :o but oh well, looks like somethin good has come out of it! ive been messin around with different oxidisers in sulphur and ive found that about 5:1 suphur to KMnO4 works quite well, but not as well as the chlorate. i havent got any 'proper' potassium chlorate around at the moment so i cant try that :(

by the way, i am mildly asthmatic so no wonder i was coughing for ages! rather unpleasent, im being very careful with this stuff now!!!

<small>[ June 21, 2002, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: Purple Fire ]</small>

What about a KNO3+S mix? I'm pretty sure that KNO3 as an oxidizer would result in a less sensitive/unstable mix than chlorates and permanganates. :) I don't know anything about ratios though, but since KNO3 is a weaker oxidizer than chlorates and permanganates, one would have to use more oxidizer if KNO3 was to be used. Maybe a 50/50 ratio?

As my KNO3 stock is quite low, I would like to hear other peoples results with theese kind of mixes before I do testings and waste all of my KNO3.

If you add Baking Soda(NaHCO3; I think) to a comp you will slow the burn down. This is good if you a have mix that has a habit of turning smoke canisters into grenades. It can also be used to neutalize any Acid that forms; Thus making the mix a safer.

We tried a mix awhile back and had great outcome.

3-parts KClO3
1-part KNO3
2-parts Sugar
2-Parts Sulfur
2-Parts Smokeless

This was ground, then mixed to form a homogenous mixture. A small amount of Acetone is then added to make a stiff paste. It is then formed in to a rod or ball. The fuse is a attached to it when it is being formed. It is then placed in a the container and coarse sand it pour over top(about 1/2"). The reason for the sand is it stops the Smoke comp from lighting(Flames). We found that far more smoke was produce when we used that sand. The smoke was quite choking aswell.

:) Quick Note: Sodium Bicarbonate, AKA Baking Soda is CHNaO3 or NaHCO3

It is added to some pyrotechnic compositions to reduce/eliminate acidity, thus increasing stability to compositions prone to spontaneous combustion from traces of acid.

<small>[ June 23, 2002, 01:43 AM: Message edited by: 0EZ0 ]</small>

Eh? Baking soda, also called sodium hydrogen carbonate, and sodium bicarbonate, is NaHCO3.

Mad Scientist,

Chemfinder comes up with:

Sodium bicarbonate [144-55-8]
Synonyms: Baking soda; Sodium acid carbonate; Sodium Hydrogen Carbonate; Bicarbonate of soda; Carbonic acid monosodium salt; carbonic acid sodium salt (1:1); col-evac; jusonin; monosodium hydrogen carbonate; monosodium carbonate; meylon; NEUT; soda mint; sodium hydrocarbonate; soludal;
CHNaO3
84.00687

Other sources have NaHCO3 written for Sodium Bicarbonate...

Anyways, back on topic.

What other smoke compositions use sulfur, and how dangerous are they when inhaled?

i made some red phosphorus mix with ocidizers
it smoke great and the fumes are toxic P2O5
that react with water to phosphorus acid
but it always went off when i mixed it
does someone now which oxidizer can be used with red phosphorus???
i thought maybe manganese dioxid but i havent any so i culd not try it
anyone knows??

To the best of my knowledge Manganese DiOxid is a Cat. in Pyrotechnic Comps. I could be wrong though.

Red Phousphorus is fairly dangerous due to how reactive it is. I avoid it at all cost.

If you've been stupid enough to use phosphorus with KClO3 or KMnO4, please increase your insurance. And P2O5 is not toxic.
Don't ever mix KClO3/P/S, it's highly friction and impact sensitive, it can explode upon ignition.

MnO2 can be used as an oxidizer:

3MnO2 -&gt; Mn3O4 + O2

"Don't ever mix KClO3/P/S, it's highly friction and impact sensitive, it can explode upon ignition."

A lot of comps do. or did you mean It may explode when mixed dry? I have heard of that happening. It happened to K.S. a few years back.

P2O5. Doesn't it react with air to form Phousphoric Acid? what happens when you get That in your lungs? From the source I have; Phousphorus is a great smoke producing agent. Lets not for get about the simple things also(Car tires, Plastic, etc.).

That perticular mix I would say is more dangerous than what Kurt Saxon blew his fingers off with. The compund he used was armstrong's mix witch is KClO3+RP but I remember that KClO3+S is also a very sensitive compund meaning you have 2 sensitive compounds in one.

how in gods name have we strayed from KClO3:S smoke mixtures to the hazards of Armstrongs mixture?

Anyway, i have continued my experiments with KMnO4 and sulfur and the results are changing every time!!! im using the same sulfur with the same permanganate all very dry and ground to the same degree and yet some of the mixtures produce LOTS of smoke, some barely ignite, and some just go PPPOOOOOOFFFFF!!! and its all gone! why the hell is this stuff so unrelyable?