I found a tube of a polymeric bubble mix in the trash that normally sells in the toy stores for about $4 for about 10ml. The difference between this stuff and the stuff you can make from dish detergent is the toy stuff forms a "solid" bubble that can be picked up, stacked, and otherwise handled in a much more vigorous manner than any soap bubble could withstand.

And, after testing it, I found that the bubbles last a while. After 8 hours 1/3rd of the bubbles remained intact. After 24 hours, most of them had disappeared, but there were still a few that were intact.

I blew very hard on them, and they remained intact. Only when I touched them did they finally break.

From what I've observed of them, the bubble mix contains PVA (PolyVinyl Alcohol), with probably a bit of crosslinker, glycerine, and other additives. There's a patent number on the packaging, but it describes the bubble wand, not the bubble mix itself. :mad:

Anyways, I was thinking, that since the bubbles remain intact, that means they would retain a gas within them for as long as they lasted. These bubbles could then be used to contaminate an area for hours using volatile (and easy to make) gaseous agents, like hydrogen cyanide or phosgene, that would otherwise dissipate within a few minutes.

Who would think a blob of foamy bubbles to be dangerous? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> This conforms to the RTPB of deception. Everyone has played with bubbles as a child, therefore bubbles are associated with harmless fun, not chemical weapons. A victim wouldn't think twice about walking on them, or wiping them with their hands.

The bubbles would be blown onto an area where they would stick, to be later stepped upon, sat on, or otherwise ruptured to release the agent. They would gradually rupture on their own, releasing a continuous supply of toxic agent that would make a contaminated area hazardous for an extended period of time.

This would be especially effective indoors, where sunlight and strong winds couldn't accelerate the breakdown. Indoors, the bubbles ability to resist strong breezes (such as fans), would make decontamination more difficult since simple ventilation would no longer be effective. Actual mechanical breakage of the bubbles would be required to release the agent and make it susceptible to venting, greatly complicating decontamination.

As an added threat - a less volatile, and more toxic, agent could be added. This would be along the lines of a vesicant like mustard or CX, or orticants like CS. These would contaminate the target zone with a more persistant hazard as the bubbles degraded, while the volatile agent presents an immediately lethal threat.

With Hydrogen Azide, you could have both a highly toxic gas, and a highly explosive threat, all in one package. Blow the foam with a binary reaction of Azide + Acid, emplace an initiator (or blow on something that'll spark), and there you go. Either the target gets blown up or, if he takes too long, the bubbles breakdown and release the toxic azide gas to poison him.

One thing you have to watch out for is to make sure that the biological/volital agent which you plan on deploying contains no solvent (whether in a liquid or gaseous form) that could break down the polymer that holds the bubble(s) together and therefore cause your agent to be released prematurely. Or even worse, while you are putting the agent in yourself.

<small>[ September 06, 2002, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: NoltaiR ]</small>

THe gas inside the bubbles wouldn't necessarily remain stationary. There is always the possibility of the gas diffusing out of the bubble or the atmospheric gas diffusing in.

That's called "diffusion". And, yes, it will happen, but the rate of diffusion of a gas (unconfined in a bubble), will be much greater than that gas which is confined.

The greater the molecular weight of the gas, the less it will diffuse. Hydrogen, being the smallest, zips through rubber quite readily, whereas CO2 does not. So HCN would diffuse quicker than phosgene, since HCN is lighter than phosgene (M.W.-wise).

Maybe I am unfamiliar with this type of bubble mix and the nature of the bubbles which it forms but...if the bubble is anything like a soap bubble (a moist membrane), then the rate of diffusion will be much higher (especially if the gas you are using happens to be soluble in the bubble mix). Of course this would be possible by using a gas with the opposite polarity of the solvent the bubbles are based on.

It's NOT moist, since the bubble mix dries to form a bubble made of PVA plastic. PVA is impervious to most non-aqueous chemicals.

The idea is sound but I was kinda wondering about the agent reacting with the bubble mix as the bubble mix is meant to to contain air with a low conc. of O2 and higher conc. of CO2 and higher amounts of H2O vapor (breath). There is a high possibility of premature popping of the bubbles. I can't think of many ways you can test the life of the bubble with various agents ... let alone a safe method. Only thing I can think of is make bubbles with the agent, put a gas mask on and stand there with a stop watch :p . Oh, how many smoke detectors can detect these sorta agents besides CO ? So then when ever you would hear the alarm go off .... you would know a bubble popped. :D but then if this would work then the smoke detection system will undergo spasms too when bubbles pop in the target building. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Actually can't the PVA be nitrated or something to make a shitty explosive with a bit of nito in it ?

<small>[ September 07, 2002, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Boob Raider ]</small>

The deviousness of your mind never ceases to amaze me nbk :D Indeed this would allow for a nasty semi-persistent chemical delivery agent that would be seemingly impossible to clean up without releasing more agent. I have seen the commercials for this stuff and if I remember correctly it is rather like a permanent bubble, yet it can be popped over time.

I purpose a means of testing this by starting out with a nice sulfur containing compound specificially one of those stinky ones like hydrogen sulfide or that stuff they put in natural gas. Something that can be smelled at low concentrations. You would not need sophisticated equipment to test this. One could disperse the agent and check back every few hours to determine if there is still a detectable odor and viable bubbles. I wonder how long those bubbles last as they are intended?

I can imagine this being sprayed into the ventilation area of a school or into a remote area of a building where they will every so slowly release their payload. This type of weapon could sustain a continual low dosage of nerve gas that would build up over time poisoning people unknowingly, then they die at home. One could spray it into a manhole cover of a sewer before a parade, or squirt in onto the shrubbery in front of a police station. Even if the bubbles last no more than a few hours it will negate the necessity of having containers filled with the toxic agent with timer release pressure valves. One could drill a hole into an enemies house and fill up the crevice between the floor boards or walls. One could even send bubbles afloat into a crowded football arena; everyone loves bubbles :) Why with a good wind one could let their bubbles fly from the comfort of a Manhattan home to send them right into the Harlem projects.

There are plenty of simulant materials one could use to test this. Hydrogen would be a good idea for permeability and diffusion. Why not give it the ol Haber try with some chlorine. Using OTC pesticides may be a good approximation of some nerve gasses. Something like wasp/hornet killer in a can contains not only a toxic molecule but petroleum distillates as well.

If death is not your game this stuff could be a nifty chaos weapon. The bubbles could just as easily be filled with tear gas, stink bomb stuff, skunk odor, or the odor added to natural gas. One may even try a corrosive agent amd spread the bubbles out over a crowded parking lot at the local Wal Mart. What about squirting a few under an enemies car seat so the stink lingers on… The possibilities are seemingly endless. This is a “Fight Club” worthy idea, heh heh.

<small>[ September 08, 2002, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: megalomania ]</small>

I could see it working well with H2S. It's as toxic as HCN, but has that annoying rotten egg smell that might warn a potential target. So, a pile of H2S bubbles is injected into the targets area. As the bubbles burst, a faint stink is detected.

However, the sense of smell is rapidly fatigued and the ability to smell it is lost. Thus, the victims think the smell has "gone away". Reality is that the gas concentration is continuing to rise as the bubbles continue to burst, building up to a lethal concentration. :D

Coroner is convinced of some kind of utility gas leak, since it was a prolonged gassing, because H2S is too volatile to have otherwise poisoned the targets over the course of a day. If only they knew of the slightly wet spot under the foundation of the house... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

A big pile of bubbles at a playground or school yard would have tons of little spawns...I mean children...rolling around in it within minutes of recess. Little do the little hellspawn know of the blistering, blinding, hellfire of the mustard gas that awaits within. <img src="http://www.roguesci.org/ubb/icons/icon23.gif" alt=" - " />

Oh, and bubble foam makes a wonderful sound suppressant. A small explosion can take place under a pile and the only thing felt is a low thump...no real noise at all. Same thing with gunshots...prepositioned weapon smothered under a pile of bubbles...bullets/frags fly...and not a sound to be heard except that of people screaming as they die.

I think polyurethane insulating foam (or similar) has been used to supress breaching charge sounds :p . Although it is good idea .... like said earlier about the image of bubbles being harmless fun :D and also that the medical report would suggest a gas leak poisoning :D . Although the only problem I can see is the bubble life consistant expectancy depending on the agent :rolleyes: .

I doubt it's polyurethane...that decomposes upon heating into hydrogen cyanide! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

As for bubble life when used with various agents...testing. :)

Well, some further test results:

Larger bubbles last longer.

The bubbles are definately air tight as they 'pop' when stepped on or flicked, similar to bubble-wrap, only not as loud.

It takes at least 5 seconds in the air before the bubbles form a skin capable of contact with a surface, otherwise they burst. When they pop in mid-air before the 5 seconds, the bubble mix drops like a bird turd, and is quite sticky and moist. After 5 seconds, it deflates slowly and floats down like a snow flake and is rather dry, but still sticky.

The bubbles are quite durable as a number of them were sucked against the air intake grill for the A/C, and remained intact for at least a half hour before bursting.

Bubbles blown using CO2 from a cylinder sank to the ground within seconds, while breath blown bubbles would float about in the air for up to several minutes before landing.

Bubbles blown into clumps lasted longer than singular bubbles.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++

From these observations I got several other ideas:

Bubbles could also be used to make normally persistant agents non-persistant. For instance, mustard gas is normally going to hang around for days or weeks in cold weather. However, since a bubble has hundreds (or thousands) of times the surface area of a drop of similar weight, this could greatly increase agent volatilization, making it last only hours.

The bubble also has a greatly increased volume, making contact much more likely given similar agent dispersal weight. For instance, a droplet of 10 micrograms weight of mustard will cause a dime sized blister. This amount of agent will barely cover the end of a small paperclip.

The chances of this miniscule droplet coming in contact with a person is remote unless directly applied. Whereas, a bubble containing the same amount of agent in polymeric bubble form, could occupy a space of up to 3/4"diameter, and an equal distance out from the surface it's sitting on.

For a given agent weight, you could contaminate a square yard of surface with aerosol droplets, or a cubic yard with bubbles.

This makes even close proximity to a surface a hazardous proposition since you'd likly not even feel the bubble breaking on you since it's so light and flimsy. And the polymer is quite sticky and adherent.

Bubbles will float quite a distance before adhering to something, and with no real pattern to it, contrary to aerosols which settle out at predictable rates.

I've got some Deliverence country right across the street from me, so I'm going to blow some bubbles there and see how well they drift through woods. Pictures to come.

If the bubbles don't allow gas diffusion, one could use them as incendiary agent if a pyrophoric agent (aluminiumtriethyl, etc) is used. Ofcourse the process of filling the bubbles would be quite hazardous then.

Another idea, if one would use an agent which quickly degrades when exposed to air, one could stick 2 bubbles together with the precursors and if they pop the agent is created in situ, thus at the right time and when it's most effective. However yields would be low depending on the volatility and the reactivity of the precursors.

Well, it's been two days ($*+ hours) since I blew the bubbles at work. Not surprisingly the vast majority of them are gone.

However...there arestill a few that look as if they were blown minutes ago. These bubbles are the ones that landed on glass or plastic surfaces. Not surprising since these surfaces are smooth and non-porous.

As for the woods test...failure. :(

Not so much as the bubbles not forming and drifting...which worked fine...but simply that the woods are so dense that I couldn't follow or find the bubbles as they drifted off into the thick of it.

The few that I could find didn't show up in the pictures I took with my POS digital camera. :mad:

Here's a shot of where I launched my BOD (Bubbles O' Death :D ) so you can see what I'm talking about.

<a href="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Deliverance.jpg" target="_blank">Panoramic view of test site</a>

Even if the bubbles only lasted an hour, that'd be 55 minutes longer than HCN would otherwise remain on target. A vast improvement considering how it's only bubbles being used.

I've also wondered if it'd be possible to use bubbles made of a UV protectant to disperse spores during daytime hours.

Most biowarfare scenarios assume a night attack because of the rapid degradation of BW agents in sunlight.

However, if electrostaticly charged spores (assuming anthrax) were to be blown into bubbles of a similarly charged polymeric solution containing UV protectants (Think SPF100 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ), than the spores would likely remaining suspended since they're all of similar charge, and thus repelling from each other and the bubble walls.

Once the bubbles are broken on landing or getting sucked into A/C system air intakes, the spores are released on target to work their black magic. :)
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++

Oh, and I can't believe no-one (including myself) missed coing up with this joke earlier.

Everyone loves "Bubbles"...Michael Jackson especially! :p

("Bubbles" is the name of the freaks pet chimp)

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 10:28 AM: Message edited by: nbk2000 ]</small>

The bubbles lasting many hours on smooth surfaces is interesting. The bubbles will also last a long time on tiled surfaces (subways), and polished stone such as marble. (government/corporate buildings...)

Charging the spores won't work. Because charge repels itself, in a sphere, all charge will move to the outside, so the spores will get stuck to the bubble.

<small>[ September 11, 2002, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Jhonbus ]</small>

I was fiddling around with some "canned air" and the bubble mix and noticed something.

<img src="http://server3001.freeyellow.com/nbk2000/Gas_Bubbles.gif" alt=" - " />

That bubbles blown by mouth sat with just a little of the bubble flattened out on the bottom part touching the ground.

Whereas, the bubbles blown with the canned air (actually a freon), sat very low, with almost a third of the bubble being in contact with the ground.

Obviously, the denser the gas, the more flattened the bubbles would be.

Further testing in order.

Also, I had the idea that the bubbles could be useful in capturing a person in a vehicle.

A sprayer filled with chloroform would blow it through an air induction venturi (to increase bubble volume) into the passenger compartment. Being that the bubbles (more accurately foam) is wind resistant and sticky, the target wouldn't be able to vent the anesthetic by rolling down the window since it would be a sticky mass adhering to itself. Sure, some would get blown out, but not all of it.

Also, it would physically block vision.

The device would be soda can size to allow for simply tossing through an open window onto the back seat/floor, where it would await remote activation at an appropriate moment...like when they're stopped at a deserted intersection. :D

Speed would be important. If it could fill up the passenger compartment of an average car in a couple of seconds with chloro-foam <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> , then they wouldn't really have any time to react to it before being immersed in the stuff.

High volume, low pressure, and a VERY dense bubble mix (to resist rupturing) would probably work.

I read this while surfing around. I thought it rather a funny coincidence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

<a href="http://www.dansdata.com/toys.htm" target="_blank">http://www.dansdata.com/toys.htm</a>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica">Any kid who can weave a militaristic fantasy around shooting a bubble gun should get some sort of medal for imagination. I suppose they could pretend the bubbles contain nerve gas <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> :D or something, but apart from that they're stuck with imagining they're a cute little video game dragon, at best. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"><img src="http://www.dansdata.com/images/toyguns/bubgun250.jpg" alt=" - " />

Hmm...matte black...thickened VX...muhahHAHAHAHA!

NBK2000,

You know you are of the Sickest men(Beast) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> I have ever met. When it is combined with your endless imagination I can only assume that you have a lot of time that you spend by yourself.... I would like to add how incredibley proud I am :D

You could utilize this concept greatly for blowing open Boxes couldn't you; As follows: you would preasurize to cans, one with O2 and one with Acetlyne. the nozzle of both the cans would be stuck into a small hole(3/8") that you drilled. The box filles with a bunch of foam. you insert a squib or blasting cap(electric), take cover and let 'er go.

...Just an Idea