Carissa Sevar: Oh good, if the bubble is popping their present owners will be looking to get out. "It cannot have helped, my lord, that the first one we sent to you we sent with an order to hurt her as much as possible even at the expense of any profit you might have of her."
Dispater: "Is that what happened? Ha! Neither her old owner nor her new owner have said why that one Project Lawful girl changed hands at such a low price, but nobody was willing to buy at higher prices after that, nor current owners admit their losses, and so the whole market froze up."
"But then, if that's the true story, and the others' value is still intact, you shouldn't say it, little puppet of something greater. Let them think that Cheliax is taking advantage to buy souls with inflated bona-fide prices of record, with inflated spellsilver, to restore Hell's budget in Golarion."
"I will find it entertaining to witness the reactions of my Counts of Hell as they are told they have one chance to get out of this market, at full price but not for any cleverness of their own. And she who is your true controller, when she is restored, will find it helpful to her ascension that she once dictated terms to so many Counts of Hell."
"That's assuming she attains greatness successfully, and becomes My own valued possession whose ascension increases her value to Me. If she fails to earn back her price, whatever that price is, I'll sell her down to one of those Counts she humiliated, as a plaything."
"Are you sure she'd still have 30 Wishes of Me?"
Carissa Sevar: "Yes, I am." There's no way that smarter-Carissa did not understand what she was gambling.
Dispater: "Don't think too highly of her, shadow of Carissa Sevar. She is not quite as clever as she believed. She is not the first to try this gambit. Not the tenth. Not the hundredth. I am older than she, and have been doing this a long time."
"When somebody erases their own memories before negotiating with a deity who can read them, it's because they know something themselves that would adversely affect their price. Oh, they rarely set out to cheat their own future owner entirely, they know that would not be healthy. But there's always something. Just enough to get one over on Me, in an Asmodean way, they think, that will prove their own cleverness and value. Not so much as to truly enrage Me, not so much that I have really lost on the trade."
"I think that's worth a discount, don't you? For the information you've withheld from Me, whose existence you've failed to conceal. And be it clear, I'm not speaking to you, puppet. I'm addressing the high priestess who stands at your side, who will have been sent along with you by the true Carissa Sevar with the real negotiating instructions, unknown even to yourself."
"This is not My first game of memories, not My tenth, and not My hundredth."
Aspexia Rugatonn: Aspexia Rugatonn will not give any visible sign of reaction to this.
Carissa Sevar: "There are people other than you she might have aimed to deceive, hoping to act against their interests without their knowledge. Irori. Keltham. Abrogail. Me."
Dispater: Dispater is in many places at once, in this Palace rising like a great metal knife thrust through and out of Dis's center. Not after the fashion of a god splintering its attentions across planes and planets; the greater portion of Himself is here. But He has hardly been giving all His attention to Carissa Sevar.
Now that attention gathers, to decide for true upon Sevar's price as He offers it. 30 Wishes is to Him an expenditure that even He will notice as unusual, but if Sevar's true value is much greater then He should not risk losing it by trying to buy lower.
The blur about Him grows stronger, the ruby topping His badge of office blazes up brighter like a lidless flaming eye.
He's not annoyed. Just looking at you.
Make a Will save or be frozen in utter terror and horror, DC 37.
Carissa Sevar: There are very few mortals on the face of Golarion who'd even stand a chance at that, and Carissa is not at all one of them.
Dispater: Dispater is not, entering into this attention, particularly expecting that Carissa Sevar will be worth 30 Wishes to Him, though He does hold out some probability of it. Project Lawful girls are status goods; Dispater has no rivals in Dis and the other archdevils would not be impressed. The vast majority of all mortals who ever were or will ever be, cannot be the most important key to Hell's conquest of Pharasma's Creation, or even have a 1% chance of being that. The prior odds are against it - but only exponentially rather than superexponentially so. It is the kind of incredulity that evidence could overcome. Few mortals already receive this much divine attention, and Golarion is already singled out as a possible source of anomalies.
And what Dispater can see, even with half His full attention on this one mortal, is still less than any fragment of Nethys sees at a glance. He is looking at Carissa Sevar's thoughts as they form, not reading out her whole memory and analyzing it; He's a god, not a superintelligence.
But neither is Dispater only as clever as INT 33 / WIS 30 might have you believe, for His intellect is not only clever but large. He integrates many other facts than those visible in only this moment to His eyes, rumors traded about Dis that have passed up to one fragment of His attention or another, rumors passed up out of spies in the mortal realm; He fires off inquiry-demands to several Counts of Hell about why exactly they traded or made offers at the prices that they did -
Probability is twisted about this one, not in any way directly visible to any sense He has, but implicit in a hundred facts around her. It is not His first time or His hundredth in dealing with a hero out of prophecy.
Probability is twisted about this one, and that is not something that should have been possible in Golarion, that has been Rovagug's vault through ages and around which prophecy has now entirely shattered.
Dispater: Everything in Hell is a game, though most are pieces rather than players. Dispater has made of Dis a form of the game that He considers civilized, a prototype of an organization suitable to run the rest of the universe after Lawful Evil conquers it, or even before then for anyone sensible enough to visit Dis and imitate its regulations. Anyone who thinks Dis unimpressive, as a Hellish civilization, ought to visit literally any other layer of Hell.
Everything in Hell is a game, and when you come before Dispater with a spark of cleverness to execute an interesting trade, He is not the sort to ruin the game by demanding to see all your cards directly - though He'll happily read out more from your tiniest hesitations than mortals would imagine possible, if they didn't understand probabilistic reasoning and entanglement. Dispater will not, at any point, try to pierce past the Crown of the Most High and look into Aspexia Rugatonn's own mind, who holds the cards that the true Carissa Sevar will have kept in reserve.
But this diminished pawn sent before Him? For the price she's demanded, Dispater will permit His true self to ask three questions in return, and see what her altered mind says of them, before deciding her price. The true Carissa Sevar must expect to have her work tested, after all.
Dispater: W̶͎̐h̴̬̀ā̷͚t̵̡̕ ̷͙̈́p̷̧̈́ô̷͈s̸̜̾s̶̩̉i̶̝̅b̸̛̯l̴͚̕é̵͚ ̸͚̄ḥ̸̿î̸̟d̷̳̋ḍ̴̈ḙ̸̀n̴̲̄ ̶̢͐t̸̬͗r̵̹̈́ǔ̴̖t̸̩̊ȟ̷̜ṡ̶̗ ̶̞̅ṃ̴̏i̶̢͛g̵̮͒h̴͇̿t̶͇̚ ̶̯͗d̶̯̆i̸͙̅m̵̩͌i̵̦̍n̴̖͝ḯ̶̞ṡ̷͖h̷̘̋ ̷͕͂y̵̨͝ö̴̬u̴̥͊r̸̹̆ ̶̩̈́v̴̼̎a̵͔̐l̵̯͒ú̷̢e̴̪͌ ̸̭͐t̵͆͜ỏ̸ͅ ̶̜̚m̶̧̌e̴̠͝?̷͓̑
Carissa Sevar: okay 'not melting into a puddle' was probably aiming too high; at least she waited until Dispater was trying.
Carissa Sevar: Peranza broke and decided to serve Iomedae whatever the cost to her. Carissa cannot really imagine she would've done that but presumably no one really imagines they would have done that. If the Carissa who sent her here was a traitor serving Good, she wants the souls so she can - defect with them? Build Project Lawful in Osirion with everyone shielded from Hell? It seems like a bizarre gamble to take if you're Good, compared to just running to Keltham, but she can't rule it out.
She does have Good impulses. She's upset about breaking people, she doesn't really like hurting them. She thinks she'll grow out of it, especially if her own future depends on growing out of it, but it's there, a stupid weakness, making her worth less to anyone who cares about her results including her. She doesn't want people to go to Abaddon and be annihilated and she has zero intention of growing out of that one. This mostly makes her less valuable but from one angle it makes her more valuable: she would never, ever ever ever anger Dispater enough He might be tempted to destroy Her.
She's definitely a heretic. She's working on being less of one. She suspects that greater-Carissa was more of a heretic along at least some dimension. Mortals are muddled, and made of contradictions they haven't fully examined, and scared and confused and stupid; she is mortal. She is working on being less of that, too.
Dispater: M̴̬̍ị̵̛g̶̍ͅh̷̜̔t̷̙̂ ̸̬̕ ̷̮͛ṫ̷̨ĥ̸̯e̴̦͝ ̷̦̋ ̸͕̇t̸͚͝r̷͉͐u̸̘͌e̷̝̓ ̶̖͛Ć̵̡a̶̟͝r̶̋ͅī̷̮s̶̟̑s̸͈̑a̷̯͘ ̸̪͊ ̴̮͑S̶̺̉ë̶̱v̸̘͑á̴̗r̴̈́͜ ̶̥͑ ̷̹̇ó̶͕p̵̼̊p̶͙̂ó̵͕ș̵̄e̷͂͜ ̷̫̂ ̴̭̂t̴̬̔ḩ̶̔e̶̡͂ ̴͍̽ ̵̪͝ị̶̇n̵̥͠t̵͎͐e̶̩̓r̷̛͓é̵͇s̵̙̚t̸̟̄s̸̠̋ ̵̻̐ ̵͚̽o̷̬͌f̵̥͌ ̴́ͅ ̸̟̌D̷͖̀î̷̝s̵͔͗ ̶͙̉ ̷͎̑ô̸̭ṛ̴͝ ̷̨̎ ̷͓̈́D̴͈͠ȋ̸̯s̷̞̒p̵̙̃a̵͚͂ṱ̷͋e̷͈͊r̶̘͋,̷͖̾ ̵͍̓ ̶̗͋i̸̲͆n̶͖͊ ̴̬̔ ̵̝̈́H̵̫̐ȇ̵̤l̶̟̿ĺ̴͎ ̷̻̚ ̴͕́o̷̗̿r̶̡̍ ̷͇̀ ̶̬͊t̷̕ͅh̵͕̏e̵̩͛ ̵̙͠ ̶̭̆M̸̺̽a̷͖͒t̶̜̉ẻ̷̘r̵̟̓i̵͕̿a̴̧͂l̷̯̅?̸̩̎
Carissa Sevar: It is not impossible. It is limited by the fact she cannot imagine any Carissa being willing to risk her own destruction, which that would be, but - if she saw a way to be safe from that - it's really hard to think of a plan to oppose Hell the first step of which is selling your soul to Dispater but among the many fragments of Carissa's wants are some that would oppose Hell; it is not unimaginable that one of those won out, somehow.
She won't oppose Hell to her own destruction; she won't. If that's what greaterCarissa was planning, she'll simply never become greaterCarissa again.
Dispater: It is not Her overt thoughts that He is paying attention to, here, but reading far below those, though still only her actual responses as they occur. And so He asks His final question, inspired by her answer to the first.
Á̷̙r̸͖̀e̸̲͗ ̵̠̓ ̸̟̀t̵̬̓h̶̡͝ḙ̵͠r̴̜͒è̴̹ ̸͕͒ ̶̼͊ā̶͉n̶̹̊y̸̓ͅ ̸̖̂ ̷͜͝a̵̞̎m̸̨̚ó̵̜n̷̬̑g̷̲̈ ̸͉̍ ̷̣͒t̸̝̀h̴̟̊e̶̳͐ ̵͉̐ ̸̖̓s̵̻͒o̸̭̓ù̶̯l̴̊ͅs̴͉̅ ̴̻͂ ̴̺̃y̷̲̒ǫ̷̃ṳ̶̓ ̴̠̌ ̷̺̽s̴̮̊e̴̟̋ē̷͈k̵̡̕ ̵̪̓ ̴͇̄t̷̹̃o̵̞͂ ̶͙̂ ̴̞̔p̷͍̀u̶̝̕r̵͉͂c̸̙̒h̵̯͆a̶̱̾s̶̛͜e̴̚ͅ ̵͕͗ ̸̬̎t̴̲́ĥ̷̞ȃ̶̭t̴̮̊ ̴̦̾ ̵͉̄y̷̱̋o̵̿͜ů̴̯r̵̤̎ ̷̩̀ ̶̥̈t̸̅ͅr̵̝̄u̶̖͗e̴̙̚ ̸̣̌ ̷̱͑s̷̢̔e̶̥̽l̸̯͂f̵̬̕ ̸̧̍ ̴̖̂m̷͇̎ǐ̷̳g̴̙͆h̶̫̄ṯ̵̿ ̸̗͑ ̴̠̉c̶̝̏a̶͍̿r̵̠̍e̴̠͛ ̷̦͛ ̷͕̍f̷̮̃o̸̼̚r̶͖͗ ̴̺̅ ̴̡̈ȁ̶̯ń̸͇d̵͓̋ ̷̼̑ ̴̢̕w̴̨̿i̷͈̋s̶͕̕h̷͙͝ ̴̛͎ ̵̥͐t̸̻̾ơ̸̗ ̶͚̈́ ̸͖̌p̸̠̅r̵͉͘o̸̙̓t̷͕̑ė̴͎c̴̲̚t̶̥͆?̶̧̕
Carissa Sevar: Oh.
Are there?
If Asmodia's in fact in Hell she probably cares at all about Asmodia. She's mad at her, but she does, if she's honest with herself, have preferences over Asmodia's state, she wants to make Asmodia useful again. Asmodia was clever, and determined, and loyal until Cheliax demonstrated her loyalty was not returned.
Peranza - she didn't know Peranza, didn't like Peranza, she's angry with Peranza for betraying them. She...doesn't really want Peranza to be turned into a useless paving stone but that's because she still doesn't understand WHY THERE ARE SO MANY PAVING STONES, surely those souls could be more useful to Asmodeus some other way.
The girls still living - no, she doesn't care about them, she doesn't think. Maybe about Pilar, but Pilar can take whatever Hell throws at her and anyway isn't available for purchase. The others are - what they are, they haven't grown where Carissa's tried to water them.
Avaricia can be a paving stone at least for a couple centuries it'd be good for her attitude problem.
There are people she cares about, embarrassingly. Olegario, Maillol. But those souls she's not here to purchase and should, obviously, not be permitted to, while the impulse is in her to protect them.
Dispater: His true attention passes, then, and goes elsewhere.
But not before Dispater has heard back answers from His subordinates, who answered to His queries, and chosen a strategy-tree accordingly for this fragment of His attention.
Carissa Sevar: She's still here, somehow. It feels as if she should have been turned to dust.
She has enough composure to not do anything really embarrassing like collapse or cry.
Aspexia Rugatonn: The Crown of the Most High is a less versatile and more specialized tool than the Crown of Infernal Majesty, but one of its specialties is that it will let you deal with archdevils without collapsing; those do not always wholly pursue Asmodeus's own true interests.
Aspexia Rugatonn seems outwardly to be unfazed.
Dispater: Dispater is among the most courteous of all devils, certainly the most courteous of all archdevils; He'll give Carissa Sevar a space to regain her composure before He speaks again, a warm sympathy in His voice.
"So you care about Asmodia. A pity, that. It seems Asmodia also changed hands at very low prices, of late; something similar seems to have happened with her as with Peranza."
Carissa Sevar: That's confusing. Cheliax conveyed no such order for Asmodia. And why would Hell have refused the resurrection, if she was worthless to them - or why would she have refused it, if tormented in Hell -
Dispater: "Peranza's torment did not begin from any order out of Cheliax. Her owner did see within her mind her betrayal, and that Asmodeus's compacted Queen of Cheliax had commanded such torment of her if she was to turn traitor, so she set upon beginning it at once. There are arrangements set in place by which Cheliax compensates us for such, though not - alas for hopeful buyers! - at their most recent price commanded in Hell, only the original sale price. There was an attempt made to call back Peranza with True Resurrection; Hell refused consent on the traitor's behalf, of course. Asmodia's case is more recent, and I have received a less detailed report of it."
Carissa Sevar: But why would Asmodia kill herself if she didn't have a clever plan?
Maybe it was murder. Or maybe she did have a clever plan and it failed. Clever plans do sometimes fail, even if you're styling yourself an ilani.
Carissa Sevar: "I understand, my lord, and am pleased to learn she is in Hell and not conspiring with Asmodeus's enemies."
Dispater: "Pleased to learn she's not conspiring with Asmodeus's enemies... yes. Pleased to learn she is in Hell, I think not. The thought of Asmodia suffering a similar fate to that which the Queen commanded for Peranza, tormented to the greatest possible extent of mortal suffering that little devils can achieve, never to become a devil herself, never even to collapse in on itself and become a lemure, always to be preserved with a part of herself remembering that all this suffering was in the end her own fault, able to want everything to end and knowing it will never end... that does not please you at all. Hm?"
Carissa Sevar: "I am mortal, and muddled, and made of contradictory parts, and among them are parts that know their duty, and parts that don't, and parts that are just stupid and flinch from anything that hurts, but I can choose which parts I name myself, and I, myself, am glad that Asmodia is suffering a traitor's fate, because Asmodeus is glad and I serve Him."
Dispater: "That falls short of a lie only by being the sort of statement that defines itself into truth regardless of realities."
"It leaves our negotiations at something of an impasse, I'm afraid. It is not at all Asmodeus's policy to sell souls to those seeking mercy for them; it's not contrary to His nature as a god, but He does consider the inescapability of Hell's horror to be part of its aesthetic and its incentives. Letting you buy souls for whom you seek mercy would quite diminish whatever pride I gained within His sight by winning for Him His contest with Irori, if something like that proved to be the case."
"It somewhat diminishes the price at which I ought to be willing to buy you. Are you willing to make Me a lower offer, to gain the souls of Peranza and Asmodia? Your true self will have left you some negotiating flexibility, though only Aspexia Rugatonn is supposed to know that and only she has been given your true price."
Carissa Sevar: "...my lord, if it is an unAsmodean impulse in me that desires those souls, then I should purchase only other souls, and not those ones. It should still be possible for me to purchase enough of them to free up the budget for my first request."
Dispater: "Oh, they've both changed hands at lower prices in any case. To buy them at their bonafide market prices, as laid down in treaty, would not much help in restoring Hell's budget for deals in Golarion. And any soul suffering such extreme torment as Cheliax's Queen commended would, even after this short time, be very little use to anyone, ever, as anything but a decoration. I suppose we could leave those two souls out of our negotiations, then."
"Or, going to the opposite extreme, my wife - Erecura, I presume you've heard of Her - is quite good at predictions even when prophecy is broken."
"You could sell yourself to Me for... let us say, one +6/+6/+4 headband, and 15 Wishes. And as part of that deal, it shall be the case that Asmodia and Peranza have already been saved from Hell, shortly after arriving there, brought into the Gardens of Erecura and given peace and peaceful treatment there as my wife is accustomed to do; not forever, but for a hundred years at least. Enough time for you to ascend in Hell and take their souls into your own keeping, if that's something you prove able to do in a relatively short time. They will not have been shattered at all, they shall be whole souls and healthy."
Carissa Sevar: "I do not understand why you would offer that, my lord, if it is displeasing to Asmodeus for souls to be offered mercy."
Dispater: "That's quite an impolite question, but I'll forgive it to you this once."
Carissa Sevar: But not answer it, of course.
Maybe it's a test. In which case the answer should be the same, unless -
"Most High, it seems to me that Asmodeus's will is already being done here and I would err, dangerously, in trying to see it done any differently. If from what you know that is mistaken, if Asmodia and Peranza are somehow required for the Keltham seduction plot, and in your judgement Asmodeus is better served by my taking the worse offer, to secure their souls as well, I would know that now, so that I do not err in my effort to choose what best serves Asmodeus."
Dispater: "Oh, until now I wasn't even aware that this was part of a Keltham seduction plot. I only directly read your mind three times, to do more didn't seem sporting. It's up to you, really, unless someone else wants to step in."
Carissa Sevar: "There is a Keltham seduction plot and Abrogail promised him that if he returned to us worthy then all he cared for would remain for him. But I was not commanded, by greater-Carissa, to purchase those souls specifically, and I was commanded to ask for 2 headbands and 30 Wishes." And in many worlds where greater-Carissa did want Asmodia and Peranza, it's because greater-Carissa is a traitor.
"So I will not sell myself for a lesser price, nor save Asmodia and Peranza from destruction; I have no orders to do so." That's what I mean, when I say I can choose which of my muddled bits I am.
Curse of Laughter: "Good job being loyal to Asmodeus! You should take the lower offer and get Peranza and Asmodia, though."
Pilar : oh no
Dispater: "I was wondering when and whether you'd intervene, unwelcome guest. Surely, I thought, you would not imagine that you could escape My notice."
"And pick yourself up from My floor and stop groveling, Pilar Pineda. I know that it was not you who chose to come into My domain uninvited. If I destroy anyone for it, it'll be your little parasite. Now let it speak."
Curse of Laughter: "I'm here to make a deal with you too, Mister Dispater! I'm just as much a guest looking to negotiate here as anybody! Sorry about barging in without an appointment, but it'd have been pretty hard for me to get one. We can do our deal as soon as Carissa Sevar is done with hers!"
Dispater: "You may speak with this thing, Carissa Sevar. I ordinarily don't take kindly to others interrupting My deals, but I am fascinated by what this entity might have to say to you about yours."
Carissa Sevar: "I have my orders," Carissa says flatly to Snack Service. "My duty here is not to optimize for Asmodeus's interests, but to obey his commands. Don't tell me that some absurd thing serves Cayden Cailean and Asmodeus both; I don't care."
Curse of Laughter: "Snack Service doesn't see why taking either of those two options would be disobeying Asmodeus's commands, though! You're selling your soul and going to Him either way! And yes, you taking the lower offer from Dispater instead serves Asmodeus's interests, and Cayden Cailean's interests, and is better for the plotting Carissa Sevar's real plot, though even she didn't grasp the whole story and didn't correctly value any of the things being traded around here. Sometimes you just find one of those win-win-win deals!"
Carissa Sevar: "Does the plotting Carissa Sevar's real plot serve Asmodeus."
Curse of Laughter: "You should know I'm not going to answer that! It wouldn't serve Cayden Cailean if I got into the habit of going around answering questions about who or what really serves Asmodeus! I just step in sometimes and say that something serves Asmodeus when that thing also serves Cayden Cailean."
Carissa Sevar: She hopes Dispater does kill the thing. "Well, it's too bad for the plotting-Carissa that She failed to specify in her orders to me how I should trade off among various things She might want, and merely ordered me to sell my soul for 30 Wishes and two headbands; but She did so order me, so I'm going to do that now."
Curse of Laughter: "Plotting Carissa isn't to you like Asmodeus is to a mortal! She didn't just have a limited channel to communicate with you, she had to think really quickly inside the 10-minute timeframe about what things she should communicate to you. Her exact words definitely can't hold up that much exact weight. For one thing, she forgot to ask for permanent Arcane Sight and permanent Tongues, which she'd definitely have included if she remembered."
"And you're not thinking at all about which timeline you're already in, here."
Carissa Sevar: Keltham would say you're not supposed to do that, when you're thinking at all about maddening things like prophetic trades.
....but once Snack Service says that it's in fact obvious.
Asmodia went to Hell and came back stronger, happier, more useful to the Project. Then she - apparently committed suicide or was murdered - though murder looks so unlikely - Aspexia tried to Resurrect her and the Resurrection failed -
- it's what she'd do if she'd been in the Gardens, thought she'd go back to them, did not fear suffering as much as possible forever -
- it's the mysterious something that Carissa knew was there, though she couldn't get any details -
Carissa Sevar: One take is that since Asmodia is in the Gardens, Dispater is being misleading in suggesting that this could be brought about by Carissa's choice. But who else would have had the power to purchase that, or the reason?
Another is that since Asmodia is in the Gardens, Carissa faced this choice and chose the world in which Asmodia is in the Gardens, and the Carissa who refuses that choice is inside a strange inconsistent hypothetical in Erecura's mind that will soon be terminated.
dath ilan: Look, you can't just choose things because somebody told you that you already chose them! If you act like that, you'll just end up in timelines where Omega Dispater shows you that you already decided to sell him your soul for 5gp! You've got to ignore what's "already happened" and put that completely out of your mind at the point where you decide which decision-type or strategy-type has the best logical consequences!
Carissa Sevar: She and Keltham did discuss this at one point, but she's -
Carissa Sevar: - not sure if it relies on the one bit of his logic she actually disagreed with, rather than just not grasping it, the one where he thought that it was better, for worlds not to exist that went very badly for you, as opposed to how she's pretty sure it is at all times obviously better to exist than not exist. A Carissa who sells her soul to Dispater for 5gp is worse off than most other Carissae, maybe, but she's still much better off for having been born in the first place!!!! It doesn't seem fair to her, to ask her to sacrifice that for the bargaining position of other Carissae -
- is that what you'd be doing -
Carissa Sevar: - she's hopelessly confused by now, which is what usually also happened when she got Keltham to talk anthropics to her in bed.
dath ilan: - If you're going to make the mistake of paying attention to the evidence, at least use all of it. That you're aware and experiencing yourself means you're not actually in a hypothetical and can't derealize yourself by choosing a different strategy than your observations imply. You should just go ahead and choose whatever logical decision-type maximizes the expected utility of the universe, even if that contradicts the premise of the universe you've already observed yourself to be inside it, without worrying about destroying it, because that's impossible, you're already here. If reality ends up mathematically inconsistent, that's an Otolmens problem, not a you problem.
- If Erecura does spawn whole hypotheticals real as the one you're apparently in, in order to predict what you'd do in this situation, all of those Carissas die anyways when their hypotheticals end inside Erecura, and can't save themselves by appearing to cooperate with whatever reality they find themselves inside. If you were actually going to optimize over that as a desideratum, you should choose updatelessly (without looking at the evidence of what's already happened) whichever strategy minimizes the number of hypotheticals Erecura runs.
Carissa Sevar: - whichever strategy maximizes the number of hypotheticals Erecura runs, since then you get to exist more.
dath ilan: - Reply 1: That sounds like imposing thinking costs on Erecura based on how you expect Her to behave. It may not seem like an ordinary 'threat', but it's a case where Erecura could just be a sort of an agent who doesn't act that way and then you'd have no motive to impose those costs on Her. In particular, She could refuse to pay those thinking costs and just not trade with you.
- Reply 2: If Erecura goes along with it, maybe because She thinks it's fun to think about, then you don't get to complain when all those hypothetical-inhabiting Carissas stop existing there, and possibly end up in a different hypothetical instead. You had a chance to have that retroactively not happen to lots of you, and instead you deliberately chose to create the greatest possible number of hypothetical-inhabiting Carissas who'd suddenly cease to exist when the thought experiment they were inside ended.
Carissa Sevar: - obviously you don't get to complain if your creator makes you stop existing! It's your job to be valuable enough to them that they don't!
.....this is not the priority for her to figure out right now for the urgent negotiation before her.
dath ilan: Correct, none of this adds up to affecting negotiations in any way. It just works out to the obvious fact that you should ignore which universe you're already inside and decide from scratch which universe you want to be inside.
Carissa Sevar: She wants Peranza and Asmodia to be all right.
But she shouldn't.
Carissa Sevar: So she doesn't.
Carissa Sevar: "You have seen more of me now, maybe," she says to Dispater. "I care about people, in the sense of having feelings, but I don't trade things for them, and a priest of Abadar would say that's what caring really is. So will you offer me 30 Wishes, and the two 6/6/4 headbands, and Permanent Arcane Sight and Permanent Tongues, for my soul, with repurchases of souls that are not those ones?'
Dispater: "Ah, but should I be doing that if it doesn't serve Asmodeus? Apparently."
Carissa Sevar: Carissa is here as a tiny child who amuses the adults for reasons she does not wholly understand, and she will lose Dispater's amused indulgence very quickly, if she YELLS AT HIM TO STOP LISTENING TO SNACK SERVICE AND JUST KILL IT.
Carissa Sevar: "My lord, I wonder if the degree to which essential policy decisions are being dictated by Cayden Cailean might not serve Asmodeus even if each individual policy decision does."
Dispater: "There's also the fact that... Snack Service... making the suggestion it did, suggests that your true reserve price known to Aspexia Rugatonn would indeed include you accepting one such headband and only fifteen Wishes, and all the souls with the two low-priced ones thrown in. Why should I offer more?"
Carissa Sevar: "For better odds, my lord. One doesn't typically send one's strike teams for an important conquest in unarmed and unarmored to cut costs."
Dispater: "Oh, do you have a use for these Wishes in mind, then? It should be obvious that if you want an investment in excess of your soul's price to me, it won't just be given you, but I'll hear out the case for the investment."
Carissa Sevar: "In excess of the lowest price Snack Service prophesies that I'm willing to accept, my lord, which may have little to do with my true price. I do not know the plan for which I was commanded to obtain these resources, beyond that Keltham has asked to buy Wishes, we believe he might use them with novel Wish wordings which we'd much rather Hell be positioned to resolve in Hell's interests, and Cheliax needs to pay Keltham and can get a good price on the Wishes. I think I'm supposed to seduce or defeat him, or both, in the course of conquering Golarion."
Dispater: "While I am not ordinarily one to accept meddling in My dealings from Chaotic Good godlings, there is something to be said for that practice when they are warning Me that - on one obvious interpretation - expending more wealth of My own, in order that Keltham be sold more Wishes than the minimum your true self set for you, might end up not serving Asmodeus."
"Nor Cayden Cailean. Apparently."
Carissa Sevar: Cayden Cailean should have his SOUL EATEN BY DAEMONS, that's what she thinks about Cayden Cailean.
Carissa Sevar: Carissa doesn't actually know what reserve price Aspexia Rugatonn might know, and she suspects Dispater will be unimpressed with haggling. And yet settling for fifteen on Snack Service's interference feels like - conceding too much of the shape of this negotiation, of the shape of greater-Carissa's plans, to an entity she does not, actually, believe is allied with her at all -
"If it serves Asmodeus best for me to have fewer Wishes, then I will have fewer Wishes, but I would have more than those two worthless souls in substitute. It has been an ambition of mine to possess every member of Project Lawful, including its Security, including Ferrar Maillol who has not sold his soul. And there are those, across Golarion, who pray to me, would choose Abaddon but would come to Hell if they knew they would be mine: I want the devils at the gates of Abaddon to tell them I'll take them, and I want anyone who accepts.
And I will do your work in the world best with Permanent Arcane Sight and Permanent Tongues, which are cheap, by comparison with all the other requests."
Dispater: "I do say, this is the most interesting negotiation I've undertaken in some little while."
"Your request to receive those who pray to you does not lie wholly in My own power to perform, Carissa Sevar, but I can agree to take it sincerely to Asmodeus - in modified form. It cannot be restricted to those who come to you by passing through Abaddon, for that is then a disincentive to Law. You would need to have been recognized by Hell as a Power to be able to receive any souls whatever. And you would need to have impressed Asmodeus sufficiently that He agrees to so direct all His devils, including those in Avernus and at the gates of Abaddon, as lies not in My own hands. But of this I expect He would agree about devoted souls coming from every land that you conquer for Him; and also in the rest of Golarion, including Cheliax, once His possessions had been increased by you sufficiently. What is yours would still be His, after all."
"Make no mistake, to attain that compact is not a price of your soul. That I will convey this compact to Asmodeus now and negotiate sincerely as your agent in it, before you've conquered much of anything, and tell you of how He receives it, is a price of your soul."
"If that price be acceptable to you - and to the true Carissa Sevar by way of Aspexia Rugatonn - then it is acceptable to Myself."
Carissa Sevar: Every land that you conquer for Him - so if she conquers all the worlds then she can fix all of Hell.
If Asmodeus agrees.
But she can't, actually, ask more than that the case is presented to Him, and expect that He might be pleased with her, for doing as she was ordered, for coming to Him without delay -
"Does the true Carissa Sevar, in your comprehension of Her, wish to object to this?" she asks the Most High.
Aspexia Rugatonn: "She is many possible people. The ones who are on our side take it, I think. I think I should not need to say, but say regardless, that you must not tell Lord Dispater you have agreed to anything until there is a written compact to be inspected."
(That this hypothetical Sevar would rapidly cease to be recognized by Hell as a Power if she tried to build Axis in the midst of Hell is obvious. That this hypothetical Sevar would, as a Power of Hell, have changed much in Her intentions and think little of all who came before Her without sufficient ilanism to be formed into Her envisioned army of finer devils, likewise obvious. If the plotting Sevar did not know it, more fool she.)
"The government of Cheliax does request and require that you only buy options on those Security and on Maillol, this day. To be exercised at some trivial price, perhaps, so that the option's price is nearly the soul's full value, but exercisable only with the consent of Cheliax's Church and Cheliax's Crown. It is not yet evidently in our interest that you own those Security's souls. Your true self did say that she wished the souls of every soul who'd read her mind save myself and Abrogail Thrune, for her vanity's sake, and some of those serve in the Imperial palace and guard Abrogail Thrune's own person."
(Aspexia Rugatonn is carefully phrasing this so that it does not preclude the possibility of Carissa Sevar taking the throne and then granting herself the Crown's permission to buy up the Securities who put her there by killing Abrogail. If that is the plotting Carissa Sevar's plot, Aspexia Rugatonn shall not interfere there one way or another so long as she doesn't offend the Church.)
Carissa Sevar: "I understand and will obey.
The true Carissa being served by this if She serves us, I would see this contract in writing, my Lord."
Dispater: A fully written contract now floats before Carissa Sevar.
There's some nonstandard language in the parts of the contract that are about nonstandard objectives; the nonstandard language is needlessly lengthy and contains some obvious tricks that she'd catch at INT 22, some not-so-obvious tricks that she wouldn't see even at INT 24.
Not really because Dispater wants any of that particularly; it's just the principle of the challenge to Carissa Sevar, especially when there's a simple solution if she thinks of it and dares.
Carissa Sevar: She has contemplated asking for Keltham's favorite no surprises clause, but that absolutely made Lrilatha want to murder him, and it feels like it runs a significant risk of -
- of what, actually, probably he'll just tell her no. If he murders her and forbids Cheliax from fixing it then Osirion will resurrect her; that serves none of them.
Carissa Sevar: Deliberately saying something that is going to anger the archduke of Dis, to His face, is still not easy.
Carissa Sevar: ....cooler Carissa wouldn't have trouble with it. Cooler Carissa derived - some substantial fraction - of the game She was playing, the stakes She was playing for, and decided to sell her soul and erase her mind and leave nothing but instructions for Aspexia Rugatonn, and it's looking like her endgame was becoming a Power in Hell.
She remembers the moment Hell first spoke to her of her instructions for her. "We'll see who gets to eat whose heart," she said, because - not because she wasn't scared - but because being weak was more dangerous than being strong.
However terrified she is of making Dispater angry, she should be more terrified than that, of signing a soul-contract that he wrote and that she can't read.
Carissa Sevar: "My lord, I would like to add a provision to this contract, that none of the clauses in it were designed to have results surprising to me, or to be interpreted in a way I wouldn't guess."
Dispater: He laughs out loud; if it were a mortal, it would be a surprised laugh; He's not, so this is a laugh designed to sound surprised.
"No."
Carissa Sevar: "That's fair enough; I would be willing to additionally add a clause that nothing in it was designed by me to be interpreted in a manner surprising to You, but I can hardly commit as much on behalf of the true Carissa Sevar. And yet, I would be foolish, to read this and think I'm getting what we just spoke of."
Carissa Sevar: Well. She wasn't smited.
Carissa Sevar: Maybe she also won't be smited if she just tries rewriting the sections that are ambiguously written herself? He's still going to be better than her at finding loopholes, but it's harder when you're starting from a text someone else wrote.
Dispater: "You dare to reject My contract language and substitute your own?"
Carissa Sevar: Or maybe she will get smote for that. Hard to say really.
"Being a foolish ignorant mortal, my lord, I cannot understand yours, and so cannot agree to it."
Dispater: "Oh, that makes sense. Carry on then."
Pilar : This takes an awful amount of courage, and unfortunately, Pilar isn't wearing the Splendour headband that gives her courage, only the Wisdom headband that tells her what she ought to do.
"Lord Dispater, I would advise Lady Sevar here."
Dispater: You can see, barely, through the blur about Dispater, that the humanoid shrouded within might be turning its head and horns in Pilar Pineda's direction. "I had not expected you to speak, little mortal. Why should I permit you to meddle in My negotiations?"
Pilar : "Because, I am told, every time I prophesy truly in an important matter, especially if speaking that prophecy itself brings about what I have foretold, it lets me tear away one more piece of Cayden Cailean's power."
Dispater: "These negotiations are already so absurd that I suppose one more absurdity shall matter little."
Pilar : Pilar is just not thinking at all about what she's doing, is the trick, here. Like a Delay Panic spell. Pilar can have a nice breakdown later. Keepers can probably cast Delay Panic.
Pilar goes over to where her friend is writing the most important contract of her life, and points to a clause in Carissa's draft. "You'll want to change this bit," she predicts. "You'll spot a possible problem here..."
Carissa Sevar: They're going to kill Cayden Cailean so fucking dead.
Aspexia Rugatonn: Aspexia Rugatonn will also help... sort of. Cheliax is not a disinterested party to this contract, and neither Dispater nor Sevar are truly incented to look after the state's interests if it conflicts with theirs.
Dispater: Dispater watches with seemingly infinite patience, as they hammer through the contract to something that Pilar no longer wants to make self-fulfilling prophecies about, with Dispater occasionally rejecting some proposed wordings Himself.
They could probably take a year at this and Dispater wouldn't especially notice.
What is to be the disposition of souls Sevar 'owns' while she is not yet herself a devil, let alone a Power of Hell, that could exercise effective possession of them?
Carissa Sevar: ....she assumes they cannot all go to the Gardens, lest she incur the wrath of Erecura. What did Dispater suggest there.
Dispater: Dispater's original suggestion was having their original Cheliax-interfacing contract devils continue to hold their custody, but treating the souls as 'resurrectable', not to be broken. If Sevar takes longer than 66 years from a soul's death to claim it, Hell can start in on training it, but with an appropriately custodial attitude toward its future usefulness to Sevar. If after Sevar's death it becomes evident that she shall never become a devil nor Power great enough to own souls, her seeming ownership is annulled and those souls' custodians become their new owners.
Carissa Sevar: Carissa is concerned that sufficiently incompetent devils might still break her souls while treating them as resurrectable. She's...inclined to demand they just be petrified until she can claim them or until it becomes evident she will never become a devil great enough to do so.
Pilar : "You'll want to change that to a form of petrification that has them not conscious and not dreaming."
Dispater: Mm... for this small handful of souls, very well. Let Sevar be warned that Asmodeus is not liable to agree to any such compacted treatment of great numbers of souls that pray to her, even once she's begun conquering lands, if she has no allies ready in Dis to receive them.
Dispater shall command all of His who own the souls of these original Project Lawful girls who have sold theirs, to sell them back to Cheliax at their bona fide last-traded prices payable in spellsilver, at Golarion's spellsilver price as defined by treaty.
Dispater shall command His contract devils that they, this day, sell unto Sevar options upon current soulsold Project employees, Securities who've read her mind, and Dispater does grant her option upon Ferrer Maillol should he pass into ownership of Dis. All such options require the consent of Cheliax's Crown and Asmodeus's Church in Golarion, in order to exercise.
It shall be the case that Erecura has already taken the traitors Asmodia and Peranza into her Gardens, there to reside for up to 100 years of death, and offered them Her ordinary good treatment there.
Sevar receives a +6/+6/+4 headband, and nondispellable permanent Arcane Sight and Tongues, and 15 Wishes; she shall be granted the power to request up to three times a Gate to a mortal-habitable fortress in Avernus where certain greater devils endure the indignation of paying out Hell's dues in Wishes. Yes yes, fine, the devils there shall also Gate her back to her point of origin in Golarion afterwards. Fine, anyone who accompanied her can go back too.
Carissa Sevar: And Dispater will compact with Asmodeus as her agent, arranging for those who pray to her and eventually those in the lands she conquers to be hers if she becomes a Power in Hell. And Carissa, as owner of the original Project Lawful girls' souls, may order or forbid their resurrection as is the privilege of their owner, a right she'll also have over those she has options on once she exercises the options by leave of Church and Crown.
She'll begin looking for allies in Dis who'll competently treat her great numbers of souls, while Dispater arranges her rights to them.
And for her part, Carissa Sevar will renounce her clerichood of Irori and compact her soul to Dispater, that her glories and triumphs in the service of Asmodeus may compound to Him, and that she will irrevocably on her death go straight to him, without trial, eternally damned.
Carissa Sevar: (This is amazing.)
Dispater: Sevar can't directly order or forbid her already-owned souls' resurrections, lacking that capacity as a mortal, but she may send word to Hell of how custodians shall answer the Material and that word shall be obeyed. Mark also that the soul itself may refuse consent.
Note again, Dispater can only take this compact to Asmodeus and bring back His response; He cannot promise to 'arrange' it.
Pilar : "You'll want to have that part done before you sell your soul and after you've agreed on the other parts, because you have more negotiating leverage with Asmodeus if -"
"FUCK. FUCK FUCK FUCK. That's advice to you as a friend, it probably doesn't serve Asmodeus if you have more - FUCK."
Carissa Sevar: "I only don't own you because you weren't for sale, just so we're clear."
Pilar : "I can't do this unless I'm doing it because I'm your friend, sir, I wasn't trying to imply that you would ever see me that way!"
Carissa Sevar: "You are of course correct that I should ask Dispater to take this compact to Asmodeus as soon as we have reached terms."
Pilar : Pilar glances questioningly at Aspexia Rugatonn.
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Our Lord does not forbid people to pursue their own self-interest in the course of serving Him. He commands it, in fact. There is sometimes a difference between pursuing Asmodeus's interests and following His will for mortals; Asmodeus might give Sevar less, if she compacted after selling her soul rather than before, and that would work to Asmodeus's interests and not hers. But in so doing, she would be less the kind of mortal and devil He seeks to have serve Him. He bid Sevar come to Him in Hell without thought of other choices; He did not bid her to seek nothing in exchange for conquering Golarion in His name."
"That said, you will require further practice and harsh reminders in noticing when, in acting from friendship, you do act contrary to our Lord's will."
Pilar : ...in time Pilar has nothing left to point out, even when invoking the power of Friendship.
Carissa Sevar: Then in time she will hand the contract back to Dispater. It specifies that he present Asmodeus with her proposed compact now, before they sign.
She feels oddly un-terrified. They might have made a mistake she wasn't smart enough to see, and that's existentially horrifying of course, and it'd be nice if she could check the contract with Keltham for input, but this is what she was meant to do, and now she is doing it.
Dispater: "Do you, Carissa Sevar, conquer territories or hearts in Hell's name, be you fairly judged by Hell's Prince to be the most prime mover in such conquests, such unsold and unclericed souls from those lands and peoples as enter into Hell calling your name, in death as they called it in life and did you and Hell more service than disservice, shall pass into your custody or the custody of those in Hell you name your slaves or allies; and when you have conquered three-quarters of Avistan all such souls out of Avistan shall be yours as well; when three-quarters of Golarion is yours, all such souls out of Golarion; when three-quarters of this plane is yours, all such souls out of this plane; when three-quarters of Pharasma's Creation is yours, all such souls out of Creation; while Hell's dominions of those lands and peoples last; and all this be annulled should you fail finally after death in being acknowledged by Hell as a Hellish Power, or should the yield in strength and wealth from those souls granted you be less than He accounts as ordinary from His subservient Powers of Hell; or should the Prince of Hell fairly judge you to have entered His despite in death or life."
Carissa Sevar: Well. That's that, then. Permission to prove she can do it.
Dispater: That Asmodeus says He'll reward somebody for conquering the universe for Him, to be clear, does not particularly mean He thinks they can. He usually doesn't trouble Himself to personally compact so at all, with lunatics, but it's not even the one-thousandth such compact Dispater has known to be agreed by Asmodeus, to lunatics otherwise worthy of His notice that He enjoys to encourage.
Dispater personally will be surprised, amused, and pleased if Carissa Sevar conquers just Avistan for Hell and holds it for a few centuries.
"And now for you to do your part by Me, mortal who'd be Queen of All."
Carissa Sevar: "Irori. You named me Your priest. You did it, somehow, without my knowledge, and I have no idea of Your intent, but I reject your priesthood, and reject You, and demand of You that you release me, that I may go to Asmodeus, as He commanded me. You offer me Axis. I refuse Axis. You offer me freedom. I refuse it. I am the possession of Asmodeus, and I intend to go to Him in Hell."
Irori: Reaching back into the second layer of Hell, from where He stands, is more difficult, more expensive. Under these particular circumstances Irori absolutely does not give a fuck.
A touch like a Shocking Grasp runs through Carissa Sevar's senses, paralyzing her perceptions and making them jerk and twitch, like she can't see anything about herself or like everything is becoming perfectly clear but no longer worthy of her attention -
Immense pride, that she's come this far, to cast Irori free and proceed on her own unhindered.
An apology, that He ever thought that Carissa Sevar needed His meddling aid.
His last benediction that she be about her own Way of Carissa Sevar, now.
ALSO IF CARISSA SEVAR FAILS IN HER TASK CAN SHE PLEASE VOLUNTARILY PRAY ABOUT THAT IMPORTANT FACT TO IOMEDAE OR ERECURA OR NORGORBER OR LITERALLY ANY OTHER GOD WHO MIGHT HEAR AND UNDERSTAND HER BECAUSE IT IS SUPER NOT IRORI'S NATURE TO TAKE UP HER TASK IF SHE FAILS AND THIS IS AN UNUSUALLY INCONVENIENT TIME FOR THAT FACT TO BE TRUE
(this last message is not going to come across at all clearly, given how much it contradicts Irori's domain, but He is TRYING REALLY HARD TO CONVEY IT ANYWAYS)
- and then Carissa Sevar is no longer a recipient of Irori's guidance in any form, but departed from His hinting and entirely about her own Way.
Carissa Sevar: wow she kind of thought that was for effect rather than actually literally
Carissa Sevar: - what was He saying -
Carissa Sevar: ...doesn't matter, because He's Irori, and she doesn't work for Him.
She stands.
She takes the contract.
And she signs it.
Dispater: And she belongs to Dispater, and is granted permanent undispellable Arcane Sight and Tongues, and there is seared into her soul a power and capability with three tangible uses to it, not like any spell she has known before, a divine ability, to call across the planes to Hell and three times have Hell hear.
Pilar : "May I be the first to proclaim knowingly and not from rumor, in faith and not in heresy, Lady Carissa Sevar, that I would be yours in death as I was in life."
Carissa Sevar: It means something now. Means everything, if Carissa can, in fact, conquer Golarion.
Carissa Sevar: "Then we have a great deal of work to do, Pilar."
Aspexia Rugatonn: She is, in truth, shocked, that events have turned out this way. Aspexia knows exactly one other person who has any kind of direct agreement with Asmodeus and her name is Abrogail Thrune. That the compact says nothing of probabilities is not lost on Aspexia. She's shocked anyways.
"I'll permit it of you, Pilar, but aside from that we shall be keeping this compact with Asmodeus private until there have been a great many consultations between Church and Crown upon the matter."
Ione Sala: Actually Ione went around in disguise a week ago prophesying that Sevar would make approximately this compact with Asmodeus! To great rejoicing from Sevar cults all around Golarion! And the Lawful Evil faith directed at Sevar contributed to Asmodeus noticing and being amused and agreeing to the compact! And Ione Sala just reached her sixth oracle circle as a result!
Good luck keeping that one quiet, Church of Asmodeus!
Dispater: "Now this is interesting. With you having become Mine, I can feel that there's already a noticeable amount of faith being directed at you from every continent in Golarion. You already have... something like a thousand hopeful worshippers in Kelesh cults, at least, and more in Vudra."
Carissa Sevar: "....my lord I didn't even know the Church was permitted to operate in the Kelesh Empire. Or Vudra."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "We're NOT, which means that Lawful Evil people there can make up ANYTHING THEY WANT when it comes to telling each other about your purported mercy in Hell."