Asmodeus: Asmodeus is a god whose concerns span many worlds, more than is true of most of his rivals. There are advantages to a narrow portfolio of worlds on which you intervene; gods that are stretched thinner face sharper tradeoffs, and Asmodeus' great power cancels this disadvantage but could instead be applied to turning it into an advantage. But while to a Good god, the existence of a god with the same values in another world is almost exactly as good as being there yourself, this is not true to an Evil god, or at least not true to Asmodeus; and so where Iomedae would sooner raise another hero in another world than colonize it with Her own church, if She had the chance to do either, Asmodeus works in both of them.
Golarion is nonetheless a substantial and important part of Asmodeus's portfolio; He worked very hard on Cheliax. He is observing closely the events unfolding in the interdiction zone, even forbidden as He is from interfering.
He has questions.
This squirrel over here, a fairly pleasing squirrel, got selected as an oracle by Cayden Cailean, and has maintained her absolute loyalty to Asmodeus and might even be making some genuine progress on becoming the shape Asmodeus wants squirrels to be. This squirrel right nearby burns with conviction in her faith in Him, and with impossible-to-read-from-this-angle plans to alter Hell, while somehow being a cleric of Irori's now.
(Most mortals who want to alter Hell do not have an idea that serves Asmodeus, and in fact it's out of disloyalty to Asmodeus that they imagine His Hell in need of any alteration. But Asmodeus is not impossible to impress, and the scope of his squirrels' current ambitions in Golarion looks like something that would impress Him, if they pull it off; certainly He'd see it tested whether they had anything else interesting in them. And Irori has at least moderately good taste, in picking His favorites, though He doesn't, generally, pick loyal Asmodeans.)
Asmodeus's intervention budget is large, but substantially expended in setting up Cheliax in the first place; it would be costly to Him to act, and also unwise, because He doesn't understand why things are going so well and could easily accidentally make them go worse. But He watches, and He does float, generally, that He'll do information trades relating to His nest of squirrels.
Abadar: Offer to pay a standard amount for everything you know about why my squirrel spent a day in magical stasis of some kind.
Asmodeus: Deal! I have no idea.
Cayden Cailean: Cayden Cailean has higher-quality information than that potentially on offer and is, of course, far more predictable about providing good value on trades than such a relatively more unreliable being as Asmodeus.
Here's the price if Abadar still wants to know, with an additional discount if He further agrees not to resell the information to Asmodeus.
Abadar: Sure, Abadar will agree to the discounted price for not reselling to Asmodeus.
Asmodeus: Is Cayden Cailean meddling just so He can feel self-important about having annoyed Asmodeus. That'd truly say more about Chaotic Good than anything Asmodeus could say.
Cayden Cailean: (It's because the Asmodeans are realizing how far they're running behind your cleric and they're putting him on hold, without him knowing that, so that they have a day to breathe and catch up. They'll probably do it again at least once or twice while waiting for their Rings of Sustenance to kick in.
The actual methodology is petrification and depetrification by Abrogail Thrune.)
Abadar: That sure does sound like a game the Asmodeans are eventually going to lose, Rings of Sustenance or no.
What is the aim of Cayden's interventions, is it a shared interest?
Cayden Cailean: No. Abadar should not assume that anything Cayden Cailean is trying to do is to Abadar's benefit or that it should be allowed to proceed unhindered in the name of implicit allyship or good fellowship.
Irori: Irori has a question, but He fears that the question itself will give more information to Asmodeus than Irori is expecting to receive in return from Him, let alone pay Him. If only there were some other entity around who took a less adversarial stance towards its trade partners!
Cayden Cailean: Depends on the question, but if Cayden Cailean turns it down there won't be a charge and He won't use new implicit info thereby gained against Irori's interests nor resell it.
Irori: Irori isn't expecting much, but it's worth a shot.
There was a mortal, Carissa Sevar, who thought she was going to lose her eternity -
Cayden Cailean: Petrification and depetrification by Abrogail Thrune.
If Cayden Cailean had a silver for every time that's been the answer to a god's question about Project Lawful, he'd have two silvers. Which isn't a lot, but it's weird that it happened twice.
Irori: Okay, but why is Carissa Sevar now stronger in her heart and will, bearing no such scars as would be expected from her ordeal?
Cayden Cailean: Abrogail Thrune petted her hair afterwards and told her she did well.
...Irori is probably not going to get this from the angle He looks at mortals.
Irori: Huh. This is one of those weird sex dominance submission things, isn't it.
Cayden Cailean: Yes actually! Cayden Cailean was not expecting Irori to figure that out, given the sort of god He is now.
Irori: Irori does not take well to being told there are things He'll never understand just because He's a god.
Should Irori maybe steer some of His other promising candidates Abrogail Thrune's way?
Cayden Cailean: Cayden Cailean isn't touching this one.
Project Lawful: PL-timestamp: Day 8 (7) / NoonPL-placestamp: Egorian / Imperial Palace / storage room #14
Abrogail Thrune II: They are meeting, this time, in a hastily cleaned and not at all decorated storage room, dressed in the least interesting clothing that either of them actually owns. It's not clear that this helps in any way, but one must concede no possible advantage to the 'tropes'.
Abrogail Thrune reads the written proposal from Aspexia Rugatonn without her expression changing in the slightest, then tosses it on the table brought between them.
"In fact, the same thought had occurred to me," says the Queen of Cheliax. "Though in a more intelligent version than this crude plan. I am pleased that you suggested it yourself, though; I will accordingly count this deed as one of the two such requests you may make of me, under my compact."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Bluff."
Abrogail Thrune II: "No, the thought truly occurred to me, after you told me to despair that we could evade these 'tropes'. I did come into conflict with Keltham; and according to his thoughts, now that such has occurred, my two possible final fates are either to be deposed or to marry him. But I may hope for some flexibility on interpretations."
"I admit, if that was not your logic behind this idea, I have no idea what was. Even you would not suggest this merely in hope of a government more sympathetic to talk of 'corrigibility', not at a juncture this vital where we must somehow bend tropes to our will."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "My thought was that for you to do this thing, without Keltham's knowledge, would make this story irrevocably a dath ilani tragedy. Even if he triumphed in all other ways, his triumph would be poisoned, if we did as I suggest. Then, with the final trend of the story fixed in fate, we can proceed to ensure it is a very great tragedy indeed."
Abrogail Thrune II: "I hope you are not suggesting I am that bad in bed -"
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Abrogail. Be serious, if you have that capacity at all."
Abrogail Thrune II: "Fine, yes, it takes some twisting away from sanity, but I can imagine Keltham or his Civilization feeling that his story cannot be a good one so long as this one matter goes awry. You are underestimating how many different ways the 'tropes' could turn that ploy into something his Civilization would consider ultimately a triumph, even if the basic plan goes off as you suggest."
"But that flaw can be repaired, I do think, and sufficiently great tragedy ensured. It is more a defect of your own lack of cleverness than an inherent failure of the premise -"
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Hold!"
"It seems that Project Lawful has sent me a message marked as true top priority. I would guess another Otolmens event. Shall we -"
Abrogail Thrune II: "Yes, have it brought here." The Queen sighs.
Aspexia Rugatonn: Aspexia reads the top message first, from Pilar Pineda, without her expression changing in the slightest.
Underneath that is a further sheaf of papers, marked with a hasty and nonstandard warning that the Outsider believes this lecture of Asmodia's could cause brain damage to people with artifact-level headbands. Although, if the reporting Security is tracking this all properly, that is probably Keltham being misled, based on what was actually just one manic episode in Asmodia.
"The subsequent material is marked with a possibly-misguided warning from Keltham that reading it might cause brain damage to those with artifact-grade headbands," Aspexia says, handing both reports to the Queen. "I shall let you read it, then, instead of myself. Tell me of only the consequences for unraveling the Otolmens event."
Abrogail Thrune II: "Unless it has somehow changed since I last read it, I do believe my compact with Asmodeus prohibits you from deliberately leading me into harm -"
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Don't pretend you wouldn't ignore the warning and read it anyways. I am saving us some time."
Aspexia Rugatonn does not really understand, on an intuitive level, why this Queen is not dead twelve times over.
Abrogail Thrune II: The Queen reads the cover report, followed by the full transcript.
"Well this is fascinating material. And optimistic in its news, I daresay. If I am reading correctly, most dath ilani are too weak and indulged for them to make proper use of their own Law. We may hope for Asmodeans of true faith to become stronger than their Kelthams, the equals of their Keepers who correct themselves without mercy."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Really. I would be tempted to read it, save that I could hardly tell the difference if Abrogail Thrune went madder, and so your continued beingness of yourself presents me with no proof about my own safety."
"Set that aside. What of Pilar's curse's claim to her that the deed served Otolmens's interest - was there anything in the transcript which made sense of that? That must be our most urgent question."
Abrogail Thrune II: "In terms of what stands out within the transcript upon a glance - Keltham said that Keepers would be those responsible for closing the Worldwound, or for guarding such dangerous information as he thought had been created by Asmodia. Fearing the dread consequence of mild unhappiness that might go along with seeking this benefit, he attempted to forbid his women from becoming Keepers or teaching others to become such. Pilar chastised him for standing between his women and Asmodeus, at her curse's prompting, going into some detail on why our Lord would wish it so, and her own nature that seeks to be corrected by Him; and Keltham now seems on course to relent."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Hm. You think that it serves Otolmens's interest for there to be Keepers in Golarion?"
Abrogail Thrune II: "That dath ilan's arts would inevitably destroy our world, absent their Keepers to contain them, is an obvious thought."
"Perhaps too obvious. Cayden Cailean has played a very tight game, and I wonder if this obvious reading, seemingly all helpful compliance and mutual interest, is meant to conceal some deeper sting."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "I wonder if Asmodia would see the sting, already, as clearly as do I."
Abrogail Thrune II: "Still not seeing it."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "This act could have advanced Asmodeus's interests in their sum by ensuring that Project Lawful brings the Keepers into existence here, thereby preserving Golarion. While at the same time, for example, giving Keltham more information about Asmodeus than we would have wished."
"With His left hand, somewhere we are not looking, Cayden Cailean sets in motion events detrimental to Asmodeus but also threatening the world. With His right hand, Cayden Cailean averts the greater threats and damages Asmodeus's interests further along the way. And then reassures Pilar that Asmodeus will be better off in the end for her own deeds, compared to if she had never been made oracle."
Abrogail Thrune II: "Ah. I see. Well, if it is that obvious to you, it may still not be the real sting."
"Yet perhaps you should inquire of Pilar about that."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "I shall enquire of Pilar's curse. Or 'snack service', as they've now named it. Pilar is an Asmodean in good standing, better indeed than yours."
Abrogail Thrune II: "That cannot possibly be protectiveness that I hear."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Possessiveness. Pilar is mine. Even as, I must now concede, Sevar is become yours."
Abrogail Thrune II: The Queen smiles. "I suppose I can agree with that division," she says pleasantly. "But this Asmodia -"
Aspexia Rugatonn: "Must become able to teach my successor. I will entertain proposals which do not interfere with that."
Abrogail Thrune II: "Mm. You know, if any man had ever successfully done to me, as Keltham did to Asmodia, I think I would wed that one."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "I have no idea where you're heading with this, yet am already certain that it is nowhere good."
Abrogail Thrune II: "I want to try my hand at Asmodia's game against Keltham. I really, really want to -"
Aspexia Rugatonn: "It has occurred to me more than once that it is a weakness of our entire system of government that no-one can assign you two hours of flaying. Such lack of supervision cannot but have ill effects on a young lady."
Abrogail Thrune II: "I was about to say that you should helpfully remind me of the compact I have signed forbidding me to meddle with Keltham, without the Church's consent, and tell me that the Church will not consent."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "It will not. Stay home and fight your war."
Abrogail Thrune II: "Why is everything in that faraway fortress so much more interesting than everything here in Egorian. How dare they lead less predictable lives than mine? It seems hardly fair I am not allowed to become a Project Lawful girl myself, when I am so much better qualified than all those other candidates."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "I can only hope one day we have a Chelish sovereign who considers it beneath her dignity to whine about unfairness like a child too young to remember her last correction for that."
"Show a little patience, your Infernal Majestrix. If all goes according to plan, you will have your own dath ilani to play games against. Better dath ilani, if all your immense optimism bears out about the meaning of today's transcript. Perhaps even -"
Abrogail Thrune II: "Don't say it! The audience isn't supposed to know what we are talking about, at this point in the plot."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "I had intended to speak as circuitously as before, of course."
"And, it occurs to me to ask, does that ploy still work even if we speak aloud of the ploy itself?"
Abrogail Thrune II: "I believe so? On the dramatic principles I know, that should leave the enticing mystery unrevealed."
Aspexia Rugatonn: "I wonder, is it required that there be an audience, somewhere, for all of this theory to operate? Can we deduce the existence of such an audience, watching us, from such events happening to us at all?"
Abrogail Thrune II: "That, going on Keltham's earlier thoughts detected by myself and also his more recent transcripts, I would conjecture to be the domain of 'anthropics'."
"But if the answer is ultimately yes - then I do solemnly avow to you who may be watching, that should the victory be mine, I will do my best to make Evil's victory more interesting to you than any triumph of Good could ever be."
Project Lawful: PL-timestamp: Day 8 (7) / NoonPL-placestamp: Otolmens Containment Zone / Project Lawful main site
Carissa Sevar: Carissa would honestly be content to just lie here not talking all afternoon, but regrettably she has a job, which is figuring out how well Keltham is taking all of the new things he learned about Asmodean theology. And also being appealingly happy and adorable so he's tempted to keep pushing himself on this front. The two don't obviously go well together, but -
Carissa Sevar: "You are my favorite person," she declares, running a second Prestidigitation on top of the first one so that she can make the sheets trail glitter as she cleans them. "And High Priestess Subirachs is my second favorite person. And Abrogail is my third favorite person, though she'd probably be higher if she hadn't specifically told me to absolutely not go falling in love with her."
Keltham: "I should probably try to just accept all that and not ask questions. I'm still not seeing the adorable romance of being stabbed in the stomach with an illusionary knife, but then, I've also never understood what any woman I've dated has ever seen in me at all, or for that matter, seen in men in general. I would date women. So my confusion is staying perfectly on trend."
Carissa Sevar: "I actually think I might have half of the explanation for the appeal of being stabbed in the stomach with a fake knife! I was thinking about this while you and Asmodia were flirting. So in dath ilan, a skill people try to display at each other when they're flirting is - intelligence of a very particular type, right - playing on more levels than the other person, making better predictions - and the game itself is appealing in a romantic sense and winning at it is moreso?"
Keltham: "Pretty much. Asmodia is supposed to be impressed with me, and then also feel moved that such an impressive person as myself wants to date her."
Carissa Sevar: "Right. So - Golarion is a lot more dangerous than dath ilan. And an extremely impressive trait in a person is their - ability to wield power so that they and the people close to them are safe from that danger. So along with signaling intelligence at each other, we signal dangerousness at each other. A dangerous person is one who, if you are theirs, will be competent to defend you, and ruthless about tracking down anyone who murders you and steals your soul or whatever."
Keltham: "Yeah, somebody killing you and stealing your soul would not be an especially good idea at this point. I wouldn't be my usual cautious, hesitant, timid self about that."
"...I suppose if I asked what it proves to stab somebody with an illusionary knife, while they're chained up and can't fight back, you'd tell me it was more of a direct perceptual update than a carefully reasoned argument."
Carissa Sevar: "Mmmhmm. I have my probabilities that you would be dangerous in my defense and those didn't change much but the part of my brain that instinctively tracks every person around me and how scary they are definitely learned something new about how scary you are. It's much better at listening to knives than reasoned arguments."
Keltham: "That... actually seems fair, I am more dangerous than I would be if I couldn't manage to do that."
"Though I'd then go on to guess that dath ilani women wouldn't find it romantic to be stabbed like that. At all. And while it's sexy that your combat potential is so much higher than mine, I think you turning that against me - would grate against something very deep inside myself. I think a dath ilani woman would probably feel the same about a man showing that he was willing to be dangerous at her, that it would make him less appealing to her."
"And I doubt Civilization is old enough for us to be that much further away from - the original conditions, the early conditions, when our distant ancestors in dath ilan would have also needed to be dangerous to each other. I'd guess that worlds with masochists have this, and worlds without masochists don't. And so there's more to it than - the reasoning you just described that should go through anywhere dangerous."
Carissa Sevar: " - so I kind of have a theory that dath ilanism might accidentally crush some things about the way I am, so if you had children with it they wouldn't grow into adults with it. But I'm not very sure, i can just sort of feel it in tension and maybe I'd have found a resolution even in dath ilan.
...also at least some of attraction is - in dath ilan even if you had delightfully complicated feelings about your boyfriend being scary towards you, everyone knows that he's not supposed to do that, so it must've been a failure of self-control, and failures of self-control are not generally appealing, and if you told your friends they'd think he was much less valuable and people want lovers they can show off -"
Keltham: "Even I could analyze a tangle like that, and cut through it simply by describing it out loud to everyone in the room. It's not a complicated or a difficult tangle. To say nothing of the very smart people who are smarter than the other people, or the Keepers."
"I think, though, that - something like what you're describing - could have happened much much earlier in Civilization, before we'd optimized our heritage as much, when people were less intelligent, and had less knowledge of how tangles like that worked. Though it wouldn't be exactly what you're describing, because that would've made sadists less appealing, not made masochists less appealing."
"But either some factor present only in Golarion, like gods, produced the Yaisas and Pilars and Carissas - or they would have existed for me in dath ilani, but somehow got differentially-replicated out of existence hundreds of years earlier. If the latter were true, that'd be awfully sad, but - the former does seem more likely."
Carissa Sevar: Her first instinct is that it seems odd to have people who like hurting others if there was never at any point in history the corresponding thing but it's a stupid thought; historically they'd just have hurt people who didn't like it, and then at some point dath ilan decided to be too Good to allow that .....
...and quite possibly hid all of their history so their enormous population of unhappy sexually unfulfilled sadists wouldn't realize what Good had taken from them.
She feels cold horror, and anger, like she's only felt when she's heard Good people saying truly sickening things like that Hell should be destroyed and every devil with it.
....not the time to voice any of that aloud, though.
"I guess the gods might've done it. ....Pilar was talking at dinner about how her curse worked in testing in Egorian and it struck me as seeming suspiciously optimized to let you have her around both your hangups. Maybe Cayden Cailean works very hard to maintain the ratios of various kinks, in general, and no one appreciates His effort."
Keltham: "Suspiciously optimized around both of my hangups? You're going to have to unpack a lot there before I can determine whether I owe Cayden Cailean a large favor or not."
Carissa Sevar: "Both her hangups and yours," Carissa clarifies. "Uh, so the specific thing that she said was that they tested under what conditions she could throw a party for someone. Could she - root out corruption by trying to host a 'we caught you being corrupt!' party for everyone in the palace who took bribes to ignore laws, that kind of thing.
And the answer as far as they could tell - you'd have to ask her or Egorian for the whole record of tests" manufactured real-yesterday for this specific ploy "was that she only finds herself somewhere in possession of snacks to hand out if she sincerely wants good for that person and if it's good for her too. People can summon her to their door with snacks by saying 'hey Pilar I want to have fun', but only if they actually want to have fun and only if she will also have fun.
....see where I'm going with this. I didn't say anything to Pilar so as not to ruin the surprise."
Keltham: "...I'm gonna have to think about whether that counts as nonconsensual mindreading. While carefully ignoring any thoughts about whether Cayden would have already predicted my decision about that, because otherwise my decision is just whatever Cayden tells me it is and then Cayden has nothing meaningful to predict."
"Also, do you know offhand which experiments they did to test the distinction between 'person thinks Pilar will have fun' and 'Pilar will actually have fun'?"
Carissa Sevar: "You'd have to ask Egorian for the list of experiments, or ask Pilar. I think sometimes the source of the result was just, uh, the curse straight-up giving her an impression of why it wasn't cooperating? Like it'd outright say to her 'sure, that'll be good for you' or 'no because someone would get hurt'."
Keltham: "Well, I'll read the report and then figure out my own experiments to test it, I suppose."
Carissa Sevar: "Sounds good. I assume I am not allowed to summon Pilar to my bed with cake and then fuck her even if I am less scrupulous than you and think it'd go fine?"
Keltham: "I... think I have to know Pilar a little better maybe? Just so it didn't feel weird that you were having sex with her at all?"
"But no, I'm not imposing my scruples on you, here. For some reason my brain thinks the Conspiracy is trying to lure me specifically into doing things that Civilization would think are awful, but that model of the Conspiracy isn't particularly chuckling about, like, the Conspiracy telling you and Pilar to get it on one night, if you see what I'm saying."
Carissa Sevar: How would a dath ilani do this. "Presumably if there is a Conspiracy Pilar and I are both gifted top-secret actresses who have collaborated on many similar Conspiracies anyway and our private habits are of no concern to the Conspiracy. ....thought of a way you could check if I'm the person you met at the Worldwound. Should I not tell you?"
Keltham: "...since it hadn't even occurred to me to worry about that, I'll say sure."
Carissa Sevar: " - huh, really? If I was a Conspiracy I would not want random Worldwound wizards in on it, they're probably much worse actresses than my usual Conspirators. Anyway, that spell for noticing spies in other planes that your god gave you before we got the Forbiddance up, possibly as a way to tell us to do a Forbiddance? Glimpse of Beyond? Also detects if people are Polymorphed, which I think Security mentioned at the time but then a bunch of stuff happened."
Keltham: "Yeah, that is the sort of thing that's more effective if I can spring it as a surprise. Still, I can think of the correct surprising point to spring it, if that's not too obvious, so sure and thanks."
"Plus some additional points from the fact that my god is relatively less likely to be in the Conspiracy and did show me that spell, meaning it wasn't selected to be easy for you to defeat. But it could potentially have been something that only worked if I used it at the right time that day before anyone was prepared for it..."
"I'd rather not talk about this while snuggling right now, I notice."
Carissa Sevar: "I don't know the correct surprising point to spring it.... unless it's while I'm Altering Self anyway in order to not get pregnant, at which time if the spell works as promised you'll see through the Polymorph into my real face and confirm at once that this is my real face and that the spell does see through Polymorphs. In which case that's too obvious.
- and that makes sense. Sorry. We can talk about something nicer."
Keltham: "That was it. Thanks for telling me it was obvious."
Some of the tension is easing, in him, as Carissa behaves a bit more like a dath ilani would around his problem.
Carissa Sevar: It's what alter-Carissa would do. Rude alter-Carissa, making their lives harder; though on this front, at least, there really is nothing to hide.
"What should we talk about instead. Sexual fantasies we had before we met each other? How unreasonably hot Abrogail is?"
Keltham: "If Abrogail seems unreasonably hot, that's a defect of the process you were using to reason about hotness, not a defect of Abrogail, and you should replace this obviously flawed reasoning method with one that finds reality less surprising."
"So how much does it cost to look that hot, are you planning on doing that in the limit of infinite money, would you like me to look hotter because I am not necessarily opposed to this line of reasoning."
Carissa Sevar: "I don't know but reasoning from the cost of the enhancements wizards go for, probably a hundred thousand gold, maybe two hundred thousand. When we have infinite money I don't see why not. If it gives us unreasonable standards we can simply do it to everyone else too."
Keltham: "What'll they do for a couple of hundred gold? Seems silly to spend less than that if it's spendable."
Carissa Sevar: "I think that'd probably get you something like the treatment I got last week, though I don't know if the options for men price out differently."
Keltham: "Now that I think about it, if I'm not allowed to leave here, that's going to end up being almost entirely transportation costs to bring somebody here... well, maybe they can hitch a ride on travel that's occurring anyways, if the number of people moving isn't already at capacity... or maybe the part of Governance that does Teleports is on some totally other budget, like Security."
"Well, if it's actually that cheap, I'll probably want to do it just because, you know, I can."
"I'd ask what it takes to turn more resilient, according to you, but I don't feel like re-chaining you and tickling it out of you right now. Is there any equivalent for - becoming physically stronger? Speaking of old fantasies."
Carissa Sevar: "Bull's Strength. Like Owl's Wisdom but for the body. I'd say 'guaranteed not to cause personality changes that can't be easily reverted' but I've started to get kind of superstitious about saying things like that...comes in a spell your god can give you or a permanent magic item, usually a belt."
Keltham: "Cost of belt."
Carissa Sevar: "Depends how strong you want to be. Cheapest one is 4,000 gold."
Keltham: "I'll try the spell and see if it's instantaneously addictive. Nobody ever died of having more motivation to make more money!"
Carissa Sevar: "Probably a lot of people have died of that! But I approve of you getting stronger, on the same level as I approve of you stabbing me, and you being scarier generally."
Keltham: "...it occurs to me that the 'nobody ever died of' game is probably a lot harder to play in Golarion than in dath ilan, not least because you can't look up the answers. But for the record, when I say something like that - people have died even in Civilization of that, and probably a lot more before Civilization - you can, for example, say 'I object to your statement on the grounds that it is false', and then I can reply with something like, 'No, proximal cause of death was probably air-fuel starvation of the brain in almost all of the cases you're thinking of' or 'Eh they went to an afterlife' and so it continues."
"I have to say, though, it wouldn't have occurred to me to think that being physically stronger would make me more dangerous in any significant sense. It's just something I expected to be fun."
Carissa Sevar: "My main association with high strength is front-line fighters and they're terrifying. Not as terrifying as a high level wizard but only because pretty much nothing in the world is as scary as a high level wizard."
Keltham: "...not actually seeing it, but I suppose now that you mention it, the Nidal invasion sure had a lot of people waving around big sharp metal objects for a world I would've thought had more dangerous options than that, like the Security wizard with us lighting up the whole perimeter with exploding balls of fire."
Carissa Sevar: "Spells take time to get off and it's reasonably common for demons - or important people - to have magic shielding against spells affecting them. You want wizards and you want a bunch of people with sharp sticks in between the wizards and the problem. Note how Security only got like ten seconds in which to do that. ....also I assume Nidal didn't just want to kill you, so they had to get into melee, there's no way to steal a soul from a distance."
Keltham: "Do you know how that soul-stealing thing would work, and do you think they were specifically planning that rather than stuffing me into a hammerspace, or mind-control and run me out of the Forbiddance..."
Carissa Sevar: "Probably they had several plans? They'd have to get you out of the Forbiddance alive to put you in a pocket dimension. They could also have tried turning you into an insensible animal and kidnapping that. I know there's a powerful spell called Soul Bind for imprisoning the soul of a person as they die but I don't know what preparation that would've needed - would've required them to be in melee, though - it's too bad Kuthites are so hard to interrogate usefully -"
Keltham: "Subject matter too grim, change topic."
Of course his mind goes on thinking anyways. Is Carissa implying that Kuthites are harder to interrogate because Chelish interrogation tries to use pain as an interrogation tool?
Probably.
Keltham adds it to a list of things that are actually worrying - not so much on Conspiracy theory, why would she say that on the Conspiracy - as on the possibility that there's some final and deepest piece of Golarion Bad News that requires him to build Civilization here only far away from every existing government in this world, and play that hand only once he is ready to defeat them all in open military battle.
...he'd rather not talk about that, look in that direction, right now. If that final grimdark realization comes, it will come at the point where all of his relationships that he wants to advance have advanced far enough for those women to follow him.</eroLARP-reasoning>
Carissa Sevar: Lean. She said it because alterCarissa would, because Taldor has this problem too.
"Right. Back to finding new topics of conversation. Do you want to hear my ranking of all of Security that I've met by who is scariest."
Keltham: "Spoken like somebody who thinks I can tell the Security wizards apart from each other, like, at all."
Carissa Sevar: " - fair. They try to be a bit indistinguishable deliberately, I think.
Do you want to talk about Asmodean theology. I'm not actually any good at explaining it but now that Pilar's yelled at you about it it has crossed my mind that maybe that's a bad reason not to try."
Keltham: "I admit, I hadn't particularly thought before about the question, wait, why is Jacint Subirachs a priestess of Asmodeus, which was not what I'd thought Asmodeus was particularly about. I can see how she might be the opposite side of Pilar, but not what either of those things have to do with Asmodeus in the first place. Asmodeus's concerns are pride, contracts, Law in whatever sense you meant that word before you knew me, and being the chief executive of Hell, right?"
Carissa Sevar: "Did it translate as 'being the chief executive of Hell'? I guess Baseline doesn't have the concept. One of Asmodeus's domains of concern is ...trying for words you'll have...power. Not just in the sense that He rules Hell but also in the sense that power relations between individuals are of interest to Him and understood to be a way of relating to Him. This thing -" she leans into him - "is pleasing to Asmodeus, insofar as He can notice what mortals are doing at all."
Keltham: "I thought Asmodeus was - weirder, more alien, less human - than, well, power relations between individuals like Pilar and Subirachs."
Carissa Sevar: "Asmodeus is very alien and His will is hard to understand, and also He tends to predictably cleric people like Pilar and Subirachs."
Keltham: "Did, he, like, make people like Pilar, who don't want to have free will anymore..."
Keltham thinks, but does not say, people like you; thinks, but does not say, that making there be masochists is ethically questionable behavior for a god and possibly the sort of behavior that causes Golarion Civilization to arrest one.
He doesn't actually believe that it's wrong for masochists to exist, but he hasn't really thought about it either; and it can be wrong to make a person who is then not wrong in themselves to exist, as Keltham's parents thought of themselves and Keltham.
Carissa Sevar: "He made people who didn't have free will, who belonged to Law, and made the correct choice with no real sense they could instead make the incorrect choice as it wasn't in their natures, and other gods broke that, and that produced the current situation where people have free will but some of them don't want it. As I understand it; probably ask Subirachs if that has implications as weird and surprising as the Abyss being infinite, because I've always been of the 'if mortals are known to predictably get confused about this then I'll just wait until I'm a devil' school of thought, when it comes to theology."
Keltham: Keltham is relieved but only slightly; he has a sense from prior grimdark experience of a Golarion Doomfact possibly hovering somewhere just out of his vision, but he doesn't know the exact direction to look, and maybe rather wouldn't right now.
"Infinite Abyss level weird implications, no. What does Asmodeus think about Pilar's obligate fetish? Or what does his Church say about ethics and procedures there?"
Carissa Sevar: "The Church would say that it makes her - a very valuable possession, for the kind of person who wants and needs that, the kind of person who can complete her, and she ought to have it, and that it's not just an ordinary crime - though obviously depending on details it might be an ordinary crime - but also a sort of sacrilege, to have a possession like that and not treasure her and protect her and ensure that she finds fulfillment."
Keltham: It's not really landing. Civilization - probably wouldn't end up saying that? Or if the argument landed, it would be an argument meshing more smoothly into Civilization-frameworks that Carissa doesn't know about, that Keltham isn't sure he really knows about to the level he maybe should.
Would the Kelthamverse end up saying it?
"Pilar isn't anyone's possession right now, is she? What determines who gets to have her, if she can't say yes to it?"
Carissa Sevar: "Well now we've got Cayden Cailean involved, I don't really know how that changes things. I think a lot of people like Pilar - just have Asmodeus in that place, their whole life, and their romantic life isn't spectacularly fulfilling? Or some - give themselves to Asmodeus's priests, since those He's vetted, where by 'give themselves' I mean something like 'make themselves known and see if there are takers'. Or some discover that nature in themselves after they're in a relationship like ours, though Pilar seems to not have that route available since she figured it out about herself already.
I think probably if you don't end up growing in a direction where you want her and Subirachs thinks you'd be good for her, then she'll get picked up by a very important Asmodean priest, given the circles she's moving in these days. But right now even if any of them noticed her they'd, uh, wait and see if you do grow in that direction, given the givens."
Keltham: "My brain keeps thinking I ought to figure out a sufficiently surprising test and direct it here, and I'm asking my brain why the Conspiracy would be faking this particular thing of all things, and my brain is not answering."
"Uh, don't figure out a clever way to prove it to me, I think this is a case where I take Civilization's standard Security advice and think of the test myself. It also includes proverbs about listening to your brain, even though your brain is really actually not always correct."
Carissa Sevar: Snuggle. "Makes sense. I won't suggest any tests.
....and I just thought of like three. Sorry. It's just an interesting challenge.
Pilar doesn't need you, anyway. If you don't ever want her and no priest ever picks her up then maybe she'll go to Hell early, at absolute worst."
Keltham: "How many Pilars are there? Per 1000, say."
Carissa Sevar: "Good question. Not a hundred. Maybe ten?
You're wondering how weird it is, that you have twelve girls and she is one of them? It's weird. Not absurd, but - weird."
Keltham: "Fraction of Asmodean priests who are like Subirachs in the relevant way?"
Carissa Sevar: "One in twenty, maybe? That's not surprising, though, I think she got assigned in significant part to look out for me."
Keltham: "Fraction of population that are priests of Asmodeus."
Carissa Sevar: "One in a hundred." He's trying some kind of bizarre test but she's giving true answers so she should pass it.
Keltham: "Twenty Pilars per Subirach. Sounds like a crowded relationship, and a crowded market, and Subirachs currently doesn't have any visible Pilars. That made more sense when I thought you were saying that Pilars went to Asmodean priests to get matchmade with somebody."
Carissa Sevar: Ah, Keltham. She tries not to be distressed; she'd be confused by this, not distressed, in alter Cheliax. "I'd give decent odds Subirachs has several at home, actually, but yeah, the reason Pilar can probably land a priest of Asmodeus is because she's important and interesting now, not every girl like her is going to get a Subirachs. I think lots of people like Pilar are unfulfilled."
Keltham: "If it's that unthinkable for a priest of Asmodeus to distribute a Pilar to someone who isn't himself a priest of Asmodeus, how would it be okay for Subirachs to tell me that I can have Pilar?"
Carissa Sevar: Why does it feel like this to talk to Keltham even when you're not lying to him. Admittedly she's mostly not lying to him in the sense of having only the foggiest sense what civilians get up to . "...it's not unthinkable? I don't know how common it is but I wouldn't be surprised to hear about it. I bet Pilar could aim higher, is all."