Talk:Time Walker (3.5e Class)

Question

How does this work in an actual game? You can't have a character that pops in and out of playing every day.. --Sabre070 00:31, 7 November 2008 (MST)

PS: You should add the minute jump, DC=5+Number of minutes attempted or something.. --Sabre070 00:32, 7 November 2008 (MST)

Well, I can't tell you how it actually plays, since I haven't had the chance to playtest it myself yet, but I can tell you that it is meant to work as a manipulator, for example: the DM has a place that is vital to the campaign burn down, if the party wants to find out what happened, then the Time Walker just Jumps back to before the building burns down, and watches, possiblly even saving the building in the process, if the character multiclasses into a psionic class, they they could possibly mind link with another member of the party after Jumping, telling them to hurry to the building, and once they get there, filling them in on whats going on (the DM could even have them encounter the arsonists on the way to the building, resulting in an alternate timeline due to Time Paradox). If you would like I can list other uses they have, but as for the minute Jump, I might just do that, I just don't want them Jumping back to the beginning of a battle and gaining the benefit of using Dichotomy at an overly low level. → Rith (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2009 (MST)

It is really the DM's character then.. An actual player wouldn't have much use for it. You could make a variant with more per encounter type abilities. --Sabre070 01:37, 7 November 2008 (MST)

Well, read the DM's note at the bottom of the page, I already hinted at that point, but it could still be playable, for example, their Temporal Strike ability, while somewhat weaker than other, more damage based classes, could be quite formidable if being used by a character multiclassing into fighter or another melee class, I was thinking about making the damage dealt from it rise quicker with levels, but I wasn't sure how that would translate into gameplay, also, at later levels they get one of the stronger class features I've seen: Dichotomy → Rith (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2009 (MST)

Yes, but no DM in their right mind would let a character control the campaign to the extent that this class can. Also, no player in their right mind would let them, specialy with Dichotomy. --Sabre070 02:33, 7 November 2008 (MST)

Did you not notice the tools I put in place to help the DM prevent the character from manipulating the world too much? For example: Paradox of Time makes it so that any alternate timeline versions of a character is an NPC and nothing more, so anytime the character Jumps, the DM could just say that the NPC version of the character just leaves the party, no explaination given, and returns later as the mind controlled minion of the archvillin of the story, also, whenever the PC decides to make a Time Jump they have to make it count, seeing as the "cool down" time between each usage of the Jump is paticularly high, additionally, there is no telling what there is at the end of the Jump, and the DC's for the Jumps are rather high, making it so that the DM could say that, at the end of the Jump they find themselves surrounded by hungry Ogre's, and since they fail their will throw, they immediately pass out if the Dm didn't want them making that Jump (of course it would be nice for the DM to warn them of this if thats the case), and as for Dichotomy, it evens out the class, up until that point they are paticularrly weak, but then they gain an ability to have 2 of themselves, a clever man can take 2 weak characters and do things one strong character couldn't do, but there are still things a strong character can do that 2 weak characters still couldn't do. But if you don't like the class then you don't like the class. → Rith (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2009 (MST)

Its not that I don't like it, I just don't think it has much use in an average dnd game. --Sabre070 03:27, 7 November 2008 (MST)

I'm good with it either way, but I really actually enjoyed this discussion with you (lol). But when I was typing up the class, I realized all the possibilities their Time Jump ability granted them, and so I tried to tone them down in combat, you never make a class great at multiple things, and this class is amazing in the roleplaying sense. So do you understand my reasoning on this class? (also, does that mean that you like it? :) ) → Rith (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2009 (MST)

I like it, it does have a good role. (Ever seen Andromeda).. But I think you should make a combat based version of this class, so that people that want a more... normal... game can use it. --Sabre070 19:28, 7 November 2008 (MST)

Sadly no, but I'm something of a fan of Dr. Who, which is probaly why I made this class in the first place, and I may just make a seperate version of this class, maybe call it the Time Twister or the Time Weaver or something like that, maybe make it similar to a spellcasting class (though that might be difficult considering I haven't played one yet) → Rith (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2009 (MST)

Comments & Analysis

It's sweet...but most of the abilities are plot devices, and the ones that aren't are far too stingy. DnD is a game about stabbing people in the face, or at least magicing them to death, and this class doesn't get much in the way of face-stabbin'. At the very least, the Moment abilities could be used more often. Once per encounter is just way too stingy. -- Genowhirl 21:31, 7 January 2009 (MST)

Well thank you Genowhirl for your comment, but I made this class with the fact that D&D is a roleplaying game in mind, video games are more about "stabbing people in the face". With this class, a clever player can Jump backwards a day or two, and then go steal that +5 vorpal battleaxe that just lopped off your friends head, and then go to your friend, hand it to him, and have some fun. As is mentioned in the Dm's note on the page, this class is recommended only for players who fully understand the implications that come with it. Thank you again for your comment. → Rith (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2009 (MST)

You can talk all you want about roleplaying, but about 90% of the game's rules and the vast majority of class abilities revolve around combat. DnD is a combat game which can be pure hack-n-slash-n-fireball for when you've got the beer and pretzels out, or, if people are making the effort, there can be some sweeping ranges of character depth; the corollary to this is that if you just want roleplaying, you can actually have just roleplaying. It's called Magical Tea Party. My reaction to this class stands; the major abilities are plot devices that I, as a DM, could implement without someone of this class being in the party or in the game at all. This is an important point. This class, as written, easily turns the rest of the party into a collection of occasionally-useful people while the Time Walker is the one person who moves the story along. It's odd you mention video games, because that's what this class is--either the DM purposely sets up things only the Time Walker can do, which is rather like a video game world containing arbitrary uses of abilities acquire along the way, or the Time Walker eventually outpaces the DM's ability to keep track of the recursive mess the Time Walker causes and the system crashes into the Red Ring of Death. To continue the video game metaphor, the rest of the party becomes a bunch of followers who hang around the overworld but can't follow into the real, important missions. Considering the emotional and mental investment I've seen people put into their characters, I do not want to make them feel like their character could be replaced with someone of roughly similar talents with no difference in the game's story. Don't get me wrong--the stories possible with these concepts get polyfractal--but the fact is, classes don't need DM-fiat-powered abilities for them to be good for roleplaying, or to move the story along. In short, I can generally trust players to put some effort into roleplaying if I make the setting interesting enough that they want to do so, I can trust myself to come up with whatever plot devices I need to move the story along, but I have to check and double-check to make sure a class is pulling its own weight and a character of that class is contributing along with the other characters and that characters aren't making every other character a minion.-- Genowhirl 23:37, 7 January 2009 (MST)

You pose some excellent points Genowhirl, but first and firstmost, I'm not supporting a pure roleplaying version of D&D, I'm supporting people paying more attention to the roleplaying part of the game, and so, if you are interested in focussing entirely on decimating your opponents and then desecrating their corpses, then go find another class, and have fun cracking that CR107 creatures skull and level 26. Secondly, you mentioned that you could implement the things that this class does without someone with this class in the game at all, well, sure, you could do that, but then the power would be entirely in your hands and more than likely only be a one time thing, but with this class, a portion of power over the world is placed at the PC's disposal, and they may use it as they see fit (though, as mentioned above, it is recommended that the PC understands all the implecations of the class), though, if you don't think you can keep track of the changes in the timeline or don't want the timeline to be altered that drastically, then you do not at all need to take this class into your campaign. Thirdly, you mentioned the other players fading into the background, I am going to assume that the most foremost point of this is the second dimension of time class ability, and my explaination for that is that is not meant to be used to leave the rest of the party behind at all, it is meant to allow room for changing the future or possiblly the past, providing the PC the ability to reorient themself if their last Jump went awry, or maybe even introducing NPC's who are actually the time walker from a drastically different timeline who may introduce odd or unique situations to the story, and if the PC who is playing the time walker does in fact turn other characters into minions or B characters, I fully support the DM punishing him with a tarrasque or 20. Also, as for all the extra roleplaying the time walker must go through, it is really more suited for a situation where the player who plays the time walker has free time that other players do not, during which the player and the DM may resolve some events that happened after the time walkers most recent Jump. Wrapping this huge post up, this class is obviously not for everyone, in the same way that the barbarian is not for a person who wants to cast spells everywhere, but this class has unique tools at its disposal that allow it to approach certain situations with a different mindset. → Rith (talk) 20:19, 16 January 2009 (MST)

“	Anything you can do, I can do, better!	”
—DM

--Sabre070 01:03, 8 January 2009 (MST)

Picture

I don't yet have comments about the class itself, but I have to wonder about the picture. What about the picture makes the subject a time walker? It sure doesn't scream "time walker!" to me. Surgo 10:01, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

Well, I kinda agree, but, it is insanely difficult to find a good picture for this paticular concept. So, I went with the best one I could find, and that was of this girl standing in a place that looks like it could be the end of the world. I would really appriciate it if you could provide a picture thats more suiting. → Rith ^(talk) 14:17, 29 March 2009 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 3.5/5 I give this class a 3.5 out of 5 because at first this class seems very underpowered. but as i read through it more, i realized how easily it would be to make this class very god like. The ability to travel back in time is extraordinarily awesome, but the possibilities are to endless i think. For example, and this is just a simple example: A Time Walker is in a fight, and its losing. It jumps into the future and find itself, 20 levels higher, and asks for help, in whihc the epic time walker would pobably help, leading to instant win. I know it is said that DM's allowing this class should be extraordinarily careful, and that all other versions of the time walker are NPC's, but one must think that a Player is gonna try very hard to convince itself, and then argue with the DM abotu how his character would go back in time to help and what not. In the end, i think it would just end up being frustrating to the DM and Players involved. Maybe add a note that if a time walker travels into the future, his other version will not be of a higher level. I hope i am making sense. I think the ability is awesome, but may need more limitation than just the DM and time sickness. --Summerscythe 00:01, 7 May 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I love the wording, it really got me thinking. Your the kinda person I'd love to take a walk with and discuss philosophy and such. --Summerscythe 00:01, 7 May 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because its fine, everything is in order --Summerscythe 00:01, 7 May 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I really love the idea of this class, It is an excellent concept, go you, seriously. --Summerscythe 00:01, 7 May 2009 (MDT)

The Problem

The real problem with this class is that it's essentially unplayable in anything except a solo game. The reason for this is that the primary class ability is designed to undo everything that the party just did. Time travel can never really be implemented in a role playing game unless all of the characters move together through time. Think of how incredibly frustrating it would be for a Time Walker to go back in time near the end of a dungeon to before the party entered it, effectively robbing all of the players of the experience points that they had sat through hours of real time to earn. The ability to have redaction of hours of time like this alone is enough to make this class unplayable at best and reviled by all other players at worse. It looks like it would be fun to play in a solo game. I would never allow it or play it in any other situation, though.

I will merely direct you towards the Disclaimer I typed at the bottom of the class, the variant of this class, and the prestige class 'patch' to this class. I realized, even as I made this class, that it would have tricky parts, and have attempted to warn people of/repair them wherever possible. → Rith ^(talk) 17:10, 1 August 2009 (MDT)

I think it's possible that unless the changes to the timeline are VIOLENTLY drastic, the DM can just gloss over everything else the party already covered. Unless the work isn't the same work anymore, the work can be considered done, and if time were altered that strongly, then you're giving the party yet another new experience anyway, which basically lets you get all the fun of two dungeons out of one. So, simply skipping the fluff makes your "borderline unplayable" thesis kinda moot. And if it is a distance of years whereby the party is left behind, it BECOMES the solo adventure you said this class is most ideal in. Given, if that decision is not made near the end of the session where the DM and the player can set up a session amongst themselves before next time, and instead everyone sits around as you go on some grand adventure, it is what one might categorize as fucked up, but a bit of patience, or dare I say the previously mentioned Eternal Walker prestige class, would patch such a hole quite strongly. So while I'll readily admit it is better left as a tool of the player rather than something to build around, lest everyone feel left out, and even worse, it requires planning and and careful procedure on the DM's part, I think it serves as an interesting way to let the player test the DM for a change, and see if he can keep pace and be just as creative. And I'm a DM pretty often, I'm not just vouching for this class as a player. But it does require care, or else "Time Walker" will mean "protagonist". It can be handled poorly, I'll give you that.

-SecondDeath777 4:36, 27 August 2017

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because this brings combat to a hole nother level of play, one witch your the master of. --97.114.125.138 03:26, 19 September 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because just reading htrew i thought of many posiblitys with this class and is still rock solid. --97.114.125.138 03:26, 19 September 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because its the formatting we all know and love. --97.114.125.138 03:26, 19 September 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because of thinking outside your the box, this can be any kind of charature that is needed or wanted, and in any campain you play. --97.114.125.138 03:26, 19 September 2009 (MDT)