Talk:Pun-Pun (3.5e Optimized Character Build)

FAQ is written in first person

Lots of awkward, amateur syntax like "I believe" etc. You believe? Who are you, and why does the reader care?

One small problem

So, one small problem I noticed is that Manipulate Form requires a failed Fortitude save; if you make the save, any changes are prevented. I can't find any indication that you are allowed to voluntarily fail a save, so barring INTENTIONALLY keeping your Constitution low to fail the save -- or, perhaps, some obscure ability I've missed somewhere -- this seems to be a pretty big oversight in the build's construction.

McBehrer

Posted on the Boards:

This optimized character was taken from the Wizards Boards by permission, the thread related to this spell is:

Green_Dragon

he scares me

let me just say one thing, pun-pun is so good if one were to fight him his CR would be somewhere in the millions, possibly even billions.

oh, and nice joke and manipulation of abilities and spells

Wow...

How long did it take you to think of this?

Somthing missing

I can see one weakness in Pun Pun, he needs Mettle for the save for partial spells that are out there.

He can simply grant himself Mettle, Evasion, and anything else that ever shows up in any printed book. No problem there. Alternatively, he'll just grant himself immunity to any effect you could ever create with partial Will/Fortitude spells (poison etc. etc. etc.) --Mkill 03:18, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

SUPREME Supreme Cleave

Grant Pun-Pun the War Hulk PrC's ability Massive Swing. Since he already has limitless sight and infinite reach (even across planes), you can now use a standard attack action to make one melee attack roll and compare that roll to the AC of every creature you threaten (which is every creature anywhere on any plane). Note that you can be selective about which squares you target, so you can use this for selective genocide to one-hit-kill entire species, or just go ahead and wipe out every living thing everywhere. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by IanUilliam (talk • contribs) 11:09, 8 January 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts.

The question is... Can Pun-Pun do enough damage to kill himself? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Aarnott (talk • contribs) 11:19, 8 January 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts.
Infinite damage verses infinite health.... Hm... This is a very good optimization :). --Green Dragon 16:19, 8 January 2007 (MST)
My heart weeps after seeing such a thing Flession 10:14, 24 March 2007 (MDT)
1-1=0, so Infinate-Infinate still equals 0 (X-X=0, mathmatical fact). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.66.55.0 (talk • contribs) 13:31, 19 May 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.
Then he takes himself down to zero... Hopefully he does not do a strenuous action, otherwise he will be okay :). --Green Dragon 23:29, 28 May 2007 (MDT)
WHOA!!!!! 84.66.55.0 --- Infinity is not a real!! You can not add infinity with the same rules you use to add reals---just like you can not add complex numbers with same the rules as reals. Infinity subtract infinity is unknown, NOT zero!! — Blue Dragon (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2007 (MDT)
Being a mathematician this is very close to my speciality (measure theory and fractional calculus) and actually is one of my supervisor's topic (descriptive set theory). The first thing you need to understand about infinity is that it is not unique. There are (literally) an infinite number of infinities. The "infinity" which corresponds with the integers is much smaller than the "infinity" which corresponds with the reals. So if I take R, and sift out all the intergers, I still get infinity. But if I take the intergers and sift out the reals, I delete my whole set, so I'm left with nothing. To follow up on BD, there is nothing wrong with infinity + infinity (the larger "kills" the smaller), the difference is this operation is not invertible so we have no subtraction. Thirdly to answer Aarnott, Pun-Pun has regeneration, and can always save himself from massive damage, so no. --Pwsnafu 19:03, 1 June 2007 (MDT)
Note that Pun-Puns HD are infinite in the sense that he can boost them up to any natural number, or lim (a -> inf) HD = inf as a mathematician would put it, where a is the number of actions he takes to boost HD. It means that only if he uses the Infinite Action Loop to boost his HD they truly become infinite.
And Pun-Pun can't kill himself with a weapon because he is immune to weapon damage and has both Fast Healing and Regeneration. Even if he manages to knock himself out he comes back like the Tarrasque. --Mkill 18:11, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Pun-Pun could simply increase his Constitution to be significantly higher than his Strength, whilst keeping his Strength high enough to destroy anything except himself in one hit.

Does this mean Pun-Pun is what happened to the dinosaurs?

Infinity minus infinity does not always equal 0. Go take calculus. 216.186.245.184 21:05, 24 November 2012 (MST)

Err...

What if I shot him with a huge cannon of godly greatness at point blanc range? Would He die then? This Pun-pun thing is crazy. Also, you need a LINE OF SIGHT in order to make a spot check anyway (evem Pun-pun cannot see through a planet...). And, even with limitless ranks, a natural one ALWAYS FAILS. Any you still cant see someone who rolls a natural twenty for their hide check. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.66.55.0 (talk • contribs) 13:24, 19 May 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

Incorrect. Pending a house rule, there is no automatic pass or fail for skill checks. -- Flession 17:29, 19 May 2007 (MDT)
In many cases (and when I play) a natural 20 is plus a certain number while a natural 1 is minus a certain number. This variant is described in greater detail in the DMG. However, this variant makes it so pun-pun will always hit and always kill. --Green Dragon 23:45, 22 May 2007 (MDT)
Gods above a certain rank don't fail on natural 1s and gods above a higher rank (I think it's 16) automatically get the maximum roll on all attacks, checks and saves. MorkaisChosen 03:59, 1 June 2007 (MDT)
Plus technically Pun Pun can do a hilarious variety of things to circumvent even this. Having limitless HD, he qualifies for virtually every feat in existence, including luck feats that give you rerolls and feats that mitigate the cost of skill failures. Having limitless or at least gigantic amounts of actions, if he messes up a skill roll he can do it again. He can always take 10 or take 20 for a large proportion of problems, especially due to feats and class abilities that let one do so under the vast majority of conditions. He can also grant himself immunity to every sub-variety of negative event from rolling a 1, infinite rerolls, etc. with Manipulate Form cheese.
Regarding LoS limitations, there's a ton of ways around this too. Pun-Pun could grant himself eyes all over his body with x-ray vision. He can abuse various clairvoyance or remote viewing abilities, or just grant himself an extraordinary ability that lets him attack without line of sight. And I believe he could grant himself eyes on his reaching "arms" of essentia or use touch.

Ice Assassin?

So, I get this whole Pun-Pun business, but I'm still confounded on one point. The assumption of Pun-Pun's divine rank is depented on his creating the Nut-Puns which is, in turn, dependent on his receiving a divine rank from the god-clones he creates using Ice Assassin. What supplement/thread/board/etc. is this spell/spell-like ability found in? Everything else has a relevant source, but this one is left mysteriously unexplained. --Rakankou 10:38, 29 May 2007 (MDT)

A Far Corners of the World article; Snow and Ice: Spells of the Frozen Lands. —Sledged (talk) 10:50, 29 May 2007 (MDT)
Most helpful; thank you. --Rakankou 11:59, 29 May 2007 (MDT)
Is a god a "living, breathing" creature as per Ice Assassin? That's debatable. --Mkill 03:16, 3 July 2007 (MDT)
Oddly enough, it doesn't stipulate that the creature to be duplicated need be a living, breathing one; only that the duplicate is a living, breathing copy. Theoretically, you could make a duplicate of an undead, construct, or a non-native outsider. —Sledged (talk) 09:08, 3 July 2007 (MDT)
Ahh, you're right. The spell is just lovely. Even without Pun-Pun, there are plenty of ways to abuse the spell. The simple fact alone that you can create a copy of someone, which gains all the original's memories, and it is under your command, suddenly puts all knowledge that ever existed at your command. Just command it to tell you what you want to know. The spell doesn't even prevent you from copying people who are already dead, and (arguably) people who are not born yet. The one annoying part, that the copy wants to run away and kill the original, can be easily prevented by commanding it not to. Well, even if the stupid thing does kill the original, you can still use it, but I wonder what happens to the killing urge. Since the critter costs 20,000 gp and 5,000 XP and is very hard to heal, it is actually a waste of ressources to send it out to actually fight someone. I'd rather create a love slave, use it as a decoy for the king who is in my torture chambers, create a duplicate of my son to confuse enemies and paparazzi (remember that you can always command it not to kill him), create a pet archmage, heck, you could even create duplicates of Superman and Batman to finally answer the question of who would win in a duel ...
Another funny fact: It says you can only repair damage using a certain ritual, but it does not say you can't heal or cure it, and that it is immune to Fast Healing and Regeneration. --Mkill 17:54, 3 July 2007 (MDT)
Also, Pun-Pun himself doesn't need the gold or XP to create it, since he's using a spell-like ability. He still needs the ice statue (shouldn't be too hard, just a nonmagical block of ice in a certain shape) and 8 hours, which is hard to shorten or use time-extending methods for- I wonder if there's any way to create a plane with a time trait? Nonetheless, he can still create 3 ice statues per day if he does nothing else that day, which should be powerful enough. Among other things, this gets around possible issues with Pun-Pun creating magic items. --24.147.186.88 20:13, 23 February 2011 (MST)
Those are some good points you bring up, but it does leave one question. In your hypothetical duel between Superman and Batman, how do you plan to get some bit of each of them (one of the material components of Ice Assassin, as per the article linked above)? Furthermore, how is Pun-Pun supposed to go about procuring some bit of a deity with a divine rank of at least one? Or does that come with being a Divine Minion?
The easiest way to achieve that is either the Eschew Materials feat or the epic Ignore Material Components. Note that Pun-Pun has unlimited feats from unlimited hit dice. In fact, he can pretty much boost himself to fulfill almost any prerequisite, so he can be assumed to have almost any feat ever published.
By the way, he does have unlimited hit dice, but I assume these are racial hit dice? Or does he get class levels? --Mkill 23:18, 3 July 2007 (MDT)
I believe they technically are neither. Rather, they are something like a positive energy version of energy drain made permanent. That wouldn't really count as racial or class, but still has all the benefits of HD.

After all

The whole Pun-Pun example should serve as a warning to any game designer out there. The "Manipulate Form" ability was never meant to fall into player hands. But the designers obviously completely underestimated player creativity. Of course there will be a way to get it. So, never ever publish a "do what you want" ability and always check "what is the worst thing that could happen if this falls into the hands of a PC". --Mkill 03:20, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Thankfully, they fixed this build with a errata. It's no longer possible to do what Pun-Pun does... -- Flession 07:07, 3 July 2007 (MDT)
Did they really? What did they change? --Mkill 23:19, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

Native to Toril

I just realized that to pull off Pun-Pun, the PC has to be native to Toril (i.e. the Forgotten Realms Campaign world). It's right in the Manipulate Forms ability. I wonder whether there is a way to become a "native of Toril" when you're in a different campaign setting. --Mkill 18:30, 3 July 2007 (MDT)

I hope not... --Sam Kay 06:56, 20 November 2007 (MST)
Gates of Dawn, Players Handbook 2 --Colona 18:33, 10 August 2008 (PST)
Or some of the rituals from Savage Species TheMadLinguist
Why not just be native to Toril and pop up wherever else you wish to be? Spelljammer was my favorite way to hop from setting to setting. Makes a good back story. 71.244.167.178 11:23, 12 September 2015 (MDT)
Yuan-Ti graft from a native yaun-ti of Toril will grant you the effect of being a yuan-ti (and presumably a native) for these purposes, sadly. Nijineko
Well, you see. Forgotten Realms has Mystra. Who is aware of every magic being cast, and can strip access to the weave if needed to prevent this sort of stuff. If you are native to Toril, then Mystra knows about your stunt and will say NO. She knows what you are casting, she knows what you plan to cast. She's pretty hands off, unless you are breaking the world, which this obviously qualifies for. The Gate spell to call the Sarruhk will fail. If you are using SpellJammer hax to hide from her, it is the attempt to hide that will fail instead. Shar is not likely to be any more cooperative with the Shadow Weave, as ascending would allow Pun-Pun to ursurp anyone. As for the graft, only ones that are actually IN Forgotten Realms are native to Toril. Planes are not campaign settings.

Divine Minion Wildshape Ability

I was reading the Divine Minion template on the Wizards website and it clearly reads:

"A divine minion can wild shape as an 11th-level druid into one or more animal forms that depend on the deity it serves..."

Not to mention the under Master of Many Forms it clearly states it requires the Wild Shape CLASS FEATURE, and applying a template to a race makes it a RACIAL ability. If it was open to anyone who can change forms that would have said something like wild shape class feature OR shapechange ability. Otherwise this would open up the class for anything that can shapechange, like a werewolf. I don't think that is what they were thinking of when they wrote up this class.

Even if you do it, then your effective level for wild shape should be the divine minion level plus the master of many forms level (in this case 4, 1+3=4) and the "as an 11th level druid" should be limited to the specific animals granted by their diety, not to all their shapeshifting. It isn't even a true wildshape ability, since it's limited to a couple of specific animals

I wouldn't say this was done completely by the rules, but by a creative intrpretation of what CLASS FEATURE means and allowing them to use the "as an 11th level druid" in conjunction with the master of many forms instead of just the divine minion level of 1.

Here is the source of my information: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mb/20050209a —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.169.169.233 (talk • contribs) 2007-11-19 22:44. Please sign your posts.

This was actually not made on D&D Wiki. If you think it is broken please bring it up with the creators of this CO on wizards.com. --Green Dragon 16:59, 25 November 2007 (MST)
Theres another way to stop this specific build with an interpretation of class feature. Technically, the Divine Minion template doesn't grant the Wild Shape feature at all in any form. It grants "fast wild shape" which is a new ability that functions as the Wild Shape ability of an 11th level druid. So the Wild Shape abilities you would get from being an 11th level druid are merely an explanatory way of describing the Fast Wild Shape ability. So you couldn't qualify for Master of Many forms at all, since you don't technically have the Wild Shape ability in any form.
Well this is easy to get around...take levels of Druid. It takes longer, but it works just as well. --Daniel Draco 10:06, 29 April 2008 (MDT)

Not to mention...

When you wildshape, you change into a RACE, not a CLASS. WuJen is a class and not a race, so how can you give a WuJen ability to yourself?

You can change into a cockroach and give yourself the ability to live through a nuke, but you can't shapechange into a wizard and give yourself the scribe scroll ability. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.169.169.233 (talk • contribs) 2007-11-19 23:06. Please sign your posts.

You are right. Although I do not see why you would need to use it to transform into a cockroach and live through a nuke, as nukes have not yet been invented at the time D&D is usually set. --Sam Kay 06:54, 20 November 2007 (MST)
The Wu Jen ability is not granted through wildshape. It's granted via the manipulate form ability. —Sledged (talk) 10:26, 20 November 2007 (MST)
In which case it is fine. --Sam Kay 12:17, 20 November 2007 (MST)

Munckin. I would kill a player who tried to pull this.

Munchkin. That's all I have to say. SUPER MUNCHKIN. -Fallen.Angel09

Many character optimizations are very much Munchkin. That's the point of them. They are usually either intended to just see if you can build one, or are intended for use in high-powered campaigns where the goal is mostly to build as powerful a character as you can. This particular build is so powerful that it's not meant to be played even in a high-powered campaign...it's purely a thought experiment. There's nothing wrong with munchkinism, it's just that there is a proper place for it...this section of the wiki is one such proper place. --Daniel Draco 10:03, 29 April 2008 (MDT)
My boyfriend's characters could *maybe* wipe this guy off the map. This is not a good thing. What can I do (as a multiclass DM/girlfriend) to solve this problem?
Talk to him OOC. Explain the situation. Explain that people aren't having fun. Ask him to tone it down a bit, make a new character, etc, without getting angry or emotional about it. Hope that helps :-) --Ghostwheel 13:05, 1 September 2009 (MDT)
DM and girlfriend. Well, then you have it easier than most DMs. Just cut him off. Then he'll come to the table with whatever character you want. ;)   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   06:34, 2 September 2009 (MDT)
That is damn dirty pool, sir. I like it. Atypicaloracle 19:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

sarrukhs

the only really good question about this thing is: why are there no sarrukhs who have thought of this??? and, by the way, from what book are the sarrukhs? cant find the in monster manual Hijax 08:50, 8 August 2008 (MDT)

Sarrukh's cannot use Manipulate Form on themselves. They're in Serpent Kingdoms. --TK-Squared 08:38, 12 September 2008 (MDT)
why? is it just stated that they cant do it on themselves? dont hey qualifi as scaled ones? dont it work on sarrukhs? Hijax 08:22, 3 January 2009 (MST)
It's specifically disallowed in the ability. Wizards of the Coast may not do much editorial oversight, but at least they can cover the blindingly obvious loopholes. TheMadLinguist
To explain the obvious more, sarrukh are specifically listed as being immune to their own ability. Both so they can't grant themselves retarded abilities, but also so that a clever wizard doesn't turn into a sarrukh and modify the sarrukh into not having the ability to modify the party any more. Atypicaloracle 19:15, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Pun-Pun at Level 1

Pun-Pun is available at level 1.


Pun-Pun, Ardent 1, 1 flaw

4 ranks in Knowledge (religion) Trait: Absent-Minded (+1) Trait: Specialized (Knowledge [Religion) (+1) Psicrystal Affinity (Sage) (+3) Call to Mind (+4) 20 Intelligence (17 base + 3 from venerable)... (+5) Mantle Power: Knowledge (+5) Mantle Power: Fate (+1) Psicrystal: Aid Another (+2)

4+1+1+3+4+5+5+1+2 = 26.

1. Makes the DC 25 knowledge check (even on a natural 1, since natural 1s aren't failures as a knowledge check), learning about Pazazu.

2. Say Pazazu's name 3 times, ask for a ring of 3 wishes.

3. Retrain Skill Focus to Assume Supernatural Ability. The premise is that, Wish allows you to mimic any spell 8th or lower, and you can mimic Polymorph. Therefore, you've the ability to assume a new form magically.

4. Wish > Polymorph Any Object: Psicrystal into a viper.

5. Wish > Polymorph yourself into a sarrukh. Grant Manipulate Form to your psicrystal...

6. Proceed with Pun-Pun.


This requires the following books:

   XPH 
   CPsi
   UA - 2 traits , 1 flaw
   Savage Species
   Eberron - education feat
   FC1 - Pazuzu
   Serpent Kingdom - Sarruhk

temporal distillation

the above mentioned Su is from the zerth cenobite and grants the user and his psicrystal one extra turn. That should be able to give pun-pun as much time as he needs

== Or a more general (and fast) first level strategy Build: anything that can get a + 14 bonus to knowledge (the planes/religion) at level one so you can take ten to know about Pazuzu on a one (DC 25 knowledge check). One example is Skill focus (+3) four ranks (+4) Masterwork tool (+2) 20 in intelligence (from race or age benefits) (+5)

1. Say Pazuzu three times. (being a paladin gets extra bonus points here - Pazuzu goes out of his way to "help" paladins, and makes sure that the 'first' wish doesn't cause evil)

2. Wish for a Lawful Evil candle of invocation

3. Use the candle to call an efreet

4. Wish one: plane shift for you both to the far realms. No more time is spend on the material plane - far realms time moves at an effective ratio of 1:0.

5. Wish two: A pony. Or anything else you like. Maybe you give the efreet something nice, and ask him kindly to forget all this. Or some kind of ritual, or a buff if you can't make the Sarruhk knowledge check. Or something to help you survive the far realms. Whatever.

6. Wish three: another candle of invocation.

7. Use the candle of invocation to gate in a Sarruhk. As per the spell, it has to obey you. Start ordering abilities

8. Get the manipulate form (ex) 9. Get the singular enemy ability of the Aleax, with the enemy being yourself 10. Get immunity to unconsciousness. 11. You are now completely unstoppable.

Problem: The Far Realms explicitly have toxic laws of physics. Plane shifting there, even if it can be done, would kill pre-ascension Pun-Pun instantly.--173.245.52.106 23:19, 16 July 2012 (MDT)

Alternate First Level Trick
Discussion moved from User talk:Green Dragon/Archive 18#3.5e Optimized Character Build Pun-Pun. --Green Dragon 16:11, 30 December 2010 (MST)

Aristocrat 1 (race independent) Feat 1: Magical training (player's guide to faerun) Feat 2: Precocious Apprentice: Summon Mirror Mephit (Expedition to the Demonweb Pits) Starting gold goes into purchasing a single vial of liquid pain.

Rounds 1->a Attempt to cast Summon Mirror Mephit until you can make the check. Optimization could allow this to autosucceed the first round, but it isn't needed Round b: toss your mirror mephit a vial of liquid pain, and have him use it with his spell-like Simulacrum ability As per the monster manual (which supercedes the SRD), a spell-like ability defaults to a standard action. With the vial, we have CL 9, sufficient to duplicate a 18 HD advanced efreeti (simulacrum is allowed to duplicate specific creatures). Divide the level by two, and we have a 9HD copy. Which is just as many hit dice as a normal efreet. Order the mirror mephit to order the efreeti to obey you completely before he vanishes.

You now have three free wishes. Start from step 4 of the above streategy.

The mirror mephit has 8th level for the caster level for simulacrum.
Did the liquid pain use as optional material component to improve the caster level by + 2 ?
But simulacrum is a spell like ability, not a spell. Or use an other rule ? If yes, what page from book of evil darkness, please ?
The normal efreet has 10 HD, not 9. So, the caster level required is 10th level, no ?
Why do you choose aristocrast as class ? For the skills ? The starting money to buy liquid pain ?
Thanks for your future anwser. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Waldham (talk • contribs) 14:10, 28 January 2010 (UTC). Please sign your posts.
Once again, I fail to see the point in all this. Someone's misusing the rules for sure. Why not just be Pun-pun? -- Danzig 19:20, 28 January 2010 (UTC)
Oh wait, this IS Pun-pun. Listen, feedback loops are not supposed to work. Maybe as a glitch in video games, but in D&D, no. -- Danzig 19:23, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Spells to Spell-Like Abilities?

To get the ability increse, Pun-Pun must grant itself the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size and make it at will. How does it do this? Can he grant himself any spell as a spell-like ability or did he get it from copying the special attack or special quality of some class or creature? Same question about how often he could use it, could he make any thing that he copied from another monster, such as a Geriviar's telekinesis which is usable three times as day, and make it at will or would he have to use it as written in the monster stat block?

A third question is can Pun-Pun grant himself class levels? As some feats or saliant divine abilities can only be taken if you are of a certain level in a certain class.

And in the Manipulate Form and Extreme Cheese section it says that the shadow seed can be used to replicate any spell or person but the shadow seed isn't in the Epic Level Handbook, so in which book is it in? -- Michael 15:48, 1 Dec 2009


You really aren't understanding the ability. Partially that's because it's an inefficient old build. Anyway, manipulate form allows you to change size directly, without needing to duplicate a form. I think shadow seed is in one of the forgotten realms books... TheMadLinguist 07:31, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Different Build

Man, this is crazy. I came up with pretty much the same idea last year when I finally got Serpent Kingdoms. What I did was get the Tainted One template from Savage Species applied to my 7th-level psion (telepath) which, according to SK, makes him qualify as a Scaled One. Then, I arranged a lengthy search for a mage powerful enough to find and capture a sarrukh. Lastly, after we had found a mage and had him imprison a sarrukh, I used several applications of implanted suggestion (because of the higher DC) until the bastard was tricked into giving my character the manipulate form ability. Since our DM was both (somewhat) new to the game and certainly quite unfamiliar with how the ability works, it wasn't too hard to convince him to let me get away with it. I haven't used it for anything yet, but sooner or later, I'ma go Matrix on some fools. Joker 20:47, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

You should add it here as another optimization. --Green Dragon 00:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Ehh, that would be kind of pointless. It would basically say: "Use the same info on the Pun-Pun page except for a different base character model." Not worth the effort, really, and it would be a waste of space. Joker 16:03, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

IP Comment

Comment left in the Manipulate Form section by IP: [EDIT by unregistered user: <-- this is incorrect. The actual text (in Forgotten Realms--Serpent Kingdoms) allows only extraordinary abilities!! If this has any impact on the rest of this build, let that be noted] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 173.164.136.93 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Flaw

Ummm.... what happens when your familiar decides that he wants to kill you? If your familiar has all the abilities you do... even if he can't, then your familiar could decide not to help you any more. Either way, your screwed!--Vrail 23:11, 26 April 2010 (UTC)

This is not a flaw. Assuming, as any optimization does, a static non-make-rubbish-up DM, that the build works perfectly. A familiar is permanently loyal to you. --TK-Squared 12:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
True, but that is under normal circumstances and I think we can all agree a pun pun is NOT NORMAL! As a DM I try to allow everything the player wants to do if it follows the rules of the books and my setting. So I need a way to screw over my player if he tries this. :P--Vrail 16:58, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
well your familiar has half your hit points, so you should be able to take it out no prob, and whats next? your psicrystal slits your throat? your elephant animal companion sits on you in your sleep suffocating you? those are just as ridiculous. but your familiar is the one thing pretty much guaranteed to be loyal to you. and as dm, don't let them be pun-pun--Name Violation 17:20, 29 April 2010 (UTC)
If you want to stop your player from going super saiyan, the solution is simple. Kill the familiar before the familiar has the chance to buff the master with manipulate form. Players will likely whine, and as a DM aiming directly at a familiar who has yet to do anything in the encounter is a real dick move; however, it'll stop the Pun Pun train. A flat-footed viper likely won't stand up to a volley of arrows or a 6th level fireball. However, I agree with NV, Pun-Pun is more of a thought experiment, never meant to be played in a game. --Badger 17:39, 29 April 2010 (UTC)


Pun Pun vs another Pun Pun

What would happen if one Pun Pun fought a different Pun Pun? Since both of them have essentially world-shattering levels of power, would this pretty much bring about the Apocalypse, or...? PokeDM 15:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

That is just about the one case when it matter exactly how high all of Pun-Puns "Nigh-Infinite" stats are. If one Pun-Pun knows about the other Pun-Pun and can get some vague idea of how powerful he is, he could get all his NI abilities to be 10x higher than those of the other Pun-Pun and find some way to get around at least one of his immunities, and kill him. If they just spontaneously encountered each other... I think they'd be essentially immune to one another's attacks. If both knew about the other and were preparing, then... it would get pretty crazy. I think it would basically come down to ingenuity in finding the best overpowered buffs. Also, see my idea regarding Split, below. --24.147.186.88 20:32, 23 February 2011 (MST)

Another Way for Infinite Reach

Since Pun-Pun has Manipulate Form, all he would need to do is give himself the Morphic Reach ability of the Warshaper (see Complete Warrior) and repeatedly take Extended Reach (see Savage Species) infinitely. Now, Pun-Pun can continue stretching his arms simply by using Energy Charge and Extended Reach. PokeDM 00:47, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Split Ability- Pun-Pun ARMY

I noticed the Split ability being mentioned off-hand in regards to Pun-Pun's immunity to damage. Has anyone considered the implications of using this ability just by itself? The Black Pudding's Split ability, which I'm fairly sure is typical, works as follows: "Slashing and piercing weapons deal no damage to a black pudding. Instead the creature splits into two identical puddings, each with half of the original’s current hit points (round down)." So Pun-Pun could grant himself and his familiar this ability, they'd each attack each other until there are two of them. Repeat, with the numbers rising exponentially until there are NI Pun-Pun/Familiar pairs. The obvious issue is that they might turn on each other, and would be something of a weird question given that Pun-Pun is (presumably) a player character, but that's easily remedied by having him and his familiar first grant each other the Hive Mind ability, but with infinite range extending across planar boundaries and everything- basically always working regardless of where the Pun-Puns are. Then, among other things, he could spread out across everywhere, and even if someone was strong enough to defeat him the rest of the the Hims would know about this person, prepare for them, and track them down and kill them. Oddly enough though, this ability actually seems like it would be far more potent in the hands of someone whose capabilities actually have limits, if they could find a way to get around the hit-point issue. Also: I just realized you literally could have a Pun-Pun SWARM. All the Pun-Puns could Polymorph into some creature which exists in swarms- locusts, for example, or hellwasps- and form a swarm. So you'd have THOUSANDS of Pun-Puns... uh... swarming. They could, among other things, use thousands of spell-like abilities per round, of whatever spells they wanted. Thankfully no DM would have to homebrew a stat block for it's actions, since Pun-Pun's player would control ALL OF THEM. --24.147.186.88 20:49, 23 February 2011 (MST)

How does this part work?

[Quote]Pun-Pun grants himself the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size as a spell-like ability at-will.[/quote]
How does Pun-Pun do this? I assume its because Manipulate Form "may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability," but does it really say it can grant the target a spell as a spell-like ability? Is the caster required to know the spell to grant the spell-like ability? I really don't understand how Pun-Pun has the ability to grant himself this ability, but if someone can explain that to me then I will love Pun-Pun (and try to make him if I can ever find a group of people to play D&D with *evil grin*). 76.204.147.162 00:31, 9 April 2011 (MDT)

Well, technically, what Pun-Pun grants himself is a spell-like ability which resembles the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size, but the short way of saying this is "the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size as a spell-like ability at-will". And yes, he can grant himself any spell he likes as a spell-like ability, since it's not stated otherwise and that is in fact presumably how it was intended- the Sarrukh probably don't have natural spellcasting, and even if they do, they certainly don't "know" enough extraordinary of supernatural abilities for that to make much of a difference, and presumably spell-like abilities are the same way (they can grant any spells). --173.245.56.203 20:27, 31 December 2011 (MST)

Major Flaw

RAI completely tears this build to shreds.

  • Well, duh. The entire point of the build, though, is to demonstrate how poorly written the involved exploits are. That's not really a flaw in the build itself though.

As per the rules by the books printed for D&D 3.5 here is how it is allowed.

Creating Pun-Pun: Requirements- Awakened Dino, Naga, Yuan-Ti or Lizardfolk as race. Follower, Familiar or Animal companion of either Snake, Dinosaur or Lizard origin. The ability to cast Polymorphic ability into a monstrous humanoid of 14 HD or higher. (or Wild-shape(maser of many forms) into a monstrous humanoid of 14 HD or higher.) The Feats Assume Supernatural Ability and Innate Spell. (you need Innate Spell if you want to preform the Giant size exploit from the Wu-jen spell list.) Void Disciple of 10th level or higher. Tattooed Monk of 1st or higher and with the Bellflower tattoo.

Correction to the Pun Pun Kolbolt, Kolbolt's are not scaled-ones only Dino, Naga, Yuan-Ti, Snake, Lizardfolk and Lizards count. The granting spell like ability only apply's to spell like abilities that said Sarrukh possesses.

Note that taking a Yuan-Ti graft makes one count as a Yuan-Ti for various purposes, and if said Yuan-Ti is a Toril native, then presumably one would then also count as a native, regardless of actual race. Nijineko

Debunked Pun Pun

Note: The following section displays a clear failure to understand the relevant rules and mechanics. It is being maintained because the arguments espoused are common responses to Pun-pun by uneducated DMs and the following section responding to this helps explain why these objections are silly.

DEBUNKING the Pun-Pun Build

Ok, first I have highlighted my comments into 3 categories:  Red is rule based failures (Debunks).  Blue is for personal Interpretations (which every other GM I have talked to agrees with, but some out there might not), and Green are actually achievable.

In the future, I will rebuild the proper Pun Pun character with acceptable abilities and even a complete character sheet for it.  It will be named The Puntastic Pun!

Behold Pun-Pun, the mighty kobold.

Pun-Pun, Divine Minion 1/Wizard 1/Master of Many Forms 3

<o:p> </o:p>

  • Divine Minion 1.
  • Wizard 1. Endurance, Alertness (through viper familiar)
  • Master of Many Forms 1.
  • Master of Many Forms 2. Assume Supernatural Ability
  • Master of Many Forms 3.


The Fast Wildshape ability of the Divine Minion allows Pun-Pun to wildshape as an 11th level druid. The 3 levels in Master of Many forms stack with the Fast Wildshape ability of the Divine Minion to allow Pun-Pun to assume the form of a Monstrous Humanoid with up to 14 HD, like the Sarruhk (note the errata on Master of Many Forms here, in the Complete Adventurer link).

Complete Failure:  As wild shape functions like Polymorph, which the user must have both a caster level and HIT DICE, he cannot take the form of a Sarruhk until he himself has 14 hit dice.  Also, be aware that the MoMF errata, says Class Levels stack for the purpose of determining the maximum hit dice of a creature you can wild shape into.

Another problem, you cannot Wildshape into a creature you are not FAMILIAR with.  As Sarruhk are among the rarest creatures in Torril, which are mostly in hibernation and tucked away – the probability of you ever meeting one is infinitesimal. Also bear in mind that you need to be familiar with, not heard about in a story, seen from afar, etc. . . . but FAMILIAR with!  Any Scaled One in a Sarruhk’s presence long enough to be familiar with them is already the Sarruhk’s Bia’ch.

Pun-Pun wildshapes into a Sarruhk and uses Assume Supernatural Ability (Savage Species) to use the Manipulate Form ability. He uses Manipulate Form to bestow that very same ability (Manipulate Form) to his viper familiar.

Although I personally allow Assume Supernatural Ability feat in my 3.5 games, it is technically 3.0 feat that has never been reprinted, referred to in any 3.5 product nor errata – some GM’s would probably disallow it.

Pun-Pun dismisses his Sarruhk form, and orders the familiar to grant him the Manipulate Form ability, using Manipulate Form of course. Since Pun-Pun is a pathetic Kobold, he qualifies as a Scaled One (though a human or other creature could simply Wild Shape into a form that qualifies as a Scaled One). Pun-Pun now has the strongest ability in the game.

I would not feel comfortable granting even an Intelligence 6 animal this power, let alone relying on that intelligence to understand its application or its wisdom in applying it to me.  Technically this is legal, but as a GM you would be wise not to try it.  Now, if you had first risen it’s intelligence to your level and/or enhanced it with a magic item or spell, and then you would be safer.

* Pun-Pun was originally a Kobold Egoist 12. Thanks to Jedrious, Turok124, and Hobojimathome for the quicker build.

You could not do Pun Pun even with a level 12 Egoist for the same reason you cannot do it with a Wizard 1 / MoMF 3 character.

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=4" title="Edit section: Ability Scores:">edit</a>] Ability Scores:

Pun-Pun grants himself the Wu-Jen spell Giant Size as a spell-like ability at-will. He casts it on his familiar through the Share Spells ability. This increases the viper to colossal size, granting the viper a +32 size bonus to strength. For the average tiny viper, that means his strength score went from 4 to 36. Using the Manipulate Form ability, the viper then increases Pun-Pun's strength score permanently, up to a maximum of 36 (the viper's own strength score). This is not a size bonus to strength. The viper is using the ability of Manipulate Form to increase and decrease a creature's ability score. No bonus is being given.

Pun-Pun's base strength score, with no bonuses of any sort, is now 36. Pun-Pun dismisses the spell effect on the familiar and it goes back down to tiny size. The familiar's strength score goes back to 4. Pun-Pun uses Giant Size on himself, growing to colossal size and gaining a +32 size bonus to strength. His strength score is now 68. Pun-Pun uses the Manipulate Form ability to directly increase his familiar's strength score up to 68. Again, this isn't a size bonus that he is giving the familiar, he is actually increasing the base score to match his own. Pun-Pun dismisses his Giant Size effect, and he goes back to a small size with strength 36. The viper is still tiny size, with strength 68 now.

The viper repeats the process of growing to colossal size and increasing Pun-Pun's strength score. Pun-Pun does the same. This process is repeated until Pun-Pun decides he is satisfied with his current strength score.


1. Cast Giant Size on familiar. Familiar becomes colossal and gains +32 size bonus to strength, giving the viper a total strength score of 36.

2. The viper uses Manipulate Form to increase Pun-Pun's strength score up to a maximum equal to the viper's strength score. In this case, 36. (This is not a bonus of any kind, he is augmenting Pun-Pun's original strength score.)

3. Pun-Pun dismisses the Giant Size effect on the viper. The viper goes back down to tiny size and 4 strength.

4. Pun-Pun casts Giant Size on himself. His strength score is 36 from step 2, now he goes colossal and gains a +32 size bonus to strength. His strength is 68.

5. Pun-Pun uses Manipulate Form to increase the strength of his tiny viper familiar. To match Pun-Pun's strength score, the viper's strength score is permanently increased from 4 to 68.

6. Pun-Pun dismisses the Giant Size effect on himself. He goes back to small size and 36 strength.

7. Pun-Pun casts Giant Size on his familiar. The viper becomes colossal and goes from 68 strength to 100 strength.

8. The viper uses Manipulate Form to permanently increase Pun-Pun's strength to 100.

9. Repeat process.

This whole process could be ruled out, depending upon the DM.  The familiar has a strength value of 4 with a temporary size bonus of +32, not a natural 36.  A DM may rule that it could not raise your strength to 36 with Manipulate Form. Also, some DMs will rule against this based on the "same source" being unable to affect a given target more than once, which even if the other aspects of the stat gain are allowed, would mean that each stat could only be raised once, and only once, with the Manipulate Form ability.  


We'll just assume Pun-Pun decides to have a strength score of 20,010 (for a modifier of 10,000). Now, Pun-Pun gets his other scores to the same ridiculous height.

(Note that Pun-Pun's scores are assumed to be arbitrarily high. Yes, 20,010 is high, but it is even larger than that. A lot larger.)

To increase his other scores, Pun-Pun needs two abilities. The first one is the Bellflower Tattoo of the Tattooed Monk (Complete Warrior). This ability allows Pun-Pun to add his charisma modifier as an enhancement bonus to any one of his ability scores. The second ability is the Void Release ability of the Void Disciple (Complete Divine). This will allow Pun-Pun to use his highest ability score modifier in place of a lower one.

Pun-Pun uses his Bellflower Tattoo to add his charisma score as an enhancement bonus to dexterity. But instead of adding his charisma bonus, he uses Void Release to add his strength bonus. His strength bonus is +10,000. So, Pun-Pun's dexterity score is now 10,000. He then uses Manipulate Form to increase his familiar's dexterity up to 10,000 as well (remember, he isn't giving his familiar a bonus to dexterity, he is literally changing his familiar's base dexterity score to match his own). Pun-Pun then dismisses the Bellflower effect, and his dexterity goes back down to normal. The viper then uses Manipulate Form to increase Pun-Pun's dexterity score up to 10,000. This time, it isn't an enhancement bonus, the familiar is using Manipulate Form to permanently change Pun-Pun's dexterity score to 10,000.

This process is repeated for each ability score. As Pun-Pun increases his strength score with the size-changing trick, he can continue to use this method to increase his other stats as well. For this reason, all of Pun-Pun's ability scores are assumed to be arbitrarily high.

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=5" title="Edit section: Special Abilities:">edit</a>] Special Abilities:

According to the Monster Manual, all Special Attacks and Qualities are either Extraordinary, Spell-like, or Supernatural abilities. Manipulate Form can grant any of these. As such, Pun-Pun is assumed to have any ability that is beneficial to him or makes him more threatening as an opponent. Here is a list of abilities that he has (the list is nowhere near exhaustive):

In my omni-verse you would have to at least witness an ability to be able to use Manipulate Form to grant it.  Some GM’s agree, some do not.

<o:p> </o:p>

  • All spells and powers as spell-like and psi-like abilities respectively, at-will. These are at an arbitrarily high caster/manifester level. This is because the caster/manifester level defaults to HD with spell-like and psi-like abilities, which Pun-Pun has a limitless amount of.
    • NO HE DOES NOT HAVE LIMITLESS HD – See that section.
  • Multiple actions in each round. This is due to the Quickness ability of the Choker (Monster Manual), as well as the Dual Actions ability of the Chronotyryn (Fiend Folio) and the Schism psi-like ability (Expanded Psionics Handbook).
    • You could gain the Choker ability and the Chronotyrn ability, effectively giving you 4 actions per round, but you could not gain these abilities more than once to gain more than 4 actions, multiple speed enhancements of the same type do not stack, ever!.  .
  • All beneficial feats. This is gained from the Chameleon prestige class (Races of Destiny). It has an extraordinary ability to gain a feat, and those feats can qualify for other feats.
  • An arbitrary amount of Fast Healing by gaining the Epic feat Fast Healing (Epic Level Handbook) a large number of times.
    • You cannot qualify for an epic feat until you have 21 or more HD.  This build does not provide unlimited HD.
  • Immunity to weapon damage from the combined abilities of the Zodar (Fiend Folio) and Snowflake Ooze (Monster Manual 3). The abilities are Invulnerability and Split respectively.
    • Bad Idea:  I have a character build that at around 12th level will kill you in a round because fo the inherent weakness of the Snowflake ooze.
  • Natural Invisibility from the Invisible Stalker (Monster Manual).
    • This works!
  • Regeneration of at least 40 (the amount of regeneration the Tarrasque has). This means all damage taken by Pun-Pun (if any) is non-lethal, and then his Fast Healing makes it go away.
    • This could work, but in my ruling you would have had to see the Terrasque to get this – Not likely!  So, no “all damage is non-lethal”, choose another regeneration ability and your good to go.
  • All Energy Immunities.
    • This is doable, as long as you’re familiar with it.
  • Immunity to Polymorph, Petrification, or any other form-altering attack, Energy Drain, Ability Damage/Drain, Mind-Affecting Effects, All Energy Damage, Disease, Poison, Stunning, Sleep, Paralysis, Death Effects, Disintegration, Imprisoning/Banishing effects, Divine Damage, Aging Effects.
    • You cannot make yourself immune to Divine Damage (not that I’ve seen in a creature).  All the rest is good.
  • Immunity to all arcane spells of 6th level and lower and any spell that allows for Spell Resistance.
    • This is good.

The list goes on and on. Further, any ability with the Ex, Su, or Sp descriptor found in a base class or prestige class is fair game with Manipulate Form.

If you can think of any combination of abilities possible within the rules, Pun-Pun can do it.

Not even close

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=6" title="Edit section: Divinity:">edit</a>] Divinity:

Pun-Pun has the Ice Assassin spell as a spell-like ability at-will. He uses it to copy an arbitrarily high number of gods. Pun-Pun then commands a god clone to make him a proxy. This makes Pun-Pun a rank 1 demigod. Pun-Pun then makes another creature (Lokiyn, the originator of the trick, used squirrels) a proxy. This lowers Pun-Pun to divine rank 0. Pun-Pun then orders another ice assassin god to make him a proxy. At divine rank 1 again, Pun-Pun invests another squirrel with a divine rank. Pun-Pun repeats this process a NI number of times.

Even if I were to allow this to become a spell-like ability (no creature has it as such) I would still require you to have the material component (part of the original creature) to complete it.  Good luck getting part of a god.

Then, he uses a standard action to recall each divine rank back from the squirrels. A NI number of squirrels with 1 divine rank invested equals a NI number of divine ranks recalled and gained by Pun-Pun. This gives Pun-Pun a NI divine rank.

Since Salient Divine Abilities are based on divine rank, Pun-Pun has a NI number of salient divine abilities. (That is at least all of the ones in the book and includes the awesome Alter Reality.)

<o:p> </o:p>

Nut-Pun Rank 1 Demigod Squirrel


Tiny Animal

Hit Dice: 1/4d8 (2 HP)

Initiative: +2

Speed: 80 ft. (16 squares), climb 20 ft. (4 squares)

Armor Class: 15 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +1 divine rank) touch 15, flat-footed 13

Base Attack/Grapple: +0/-12

Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d3-4)

Full Attack: Bite +5 melee (1d3-4)

Space/Reach: 2-1/2 ft./0 ft.

Special Attacks: Salient Divine Ability, Domain Powers, Spell-like Abilities

Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, DR 15/epic, Divine Traits

Saves: Fort +3, Ref +5, Will +2

Abilities: Str 2, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 2

Skills: Balance +11, Climb +13, Hide +15, Move Silently +11, Swim +3

Feats: Weapon Finesse

Environment: Any

Organization: Solitary, Pair, NI God Horde

Challenge Rating: 1/8

Advancement: -

Level Adjustment: -


  • Thanks to Lokiyn for this godly tactic. No

squirrels were harmed in the making of this uber

kobold.

<o:p> </o:p>

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=7" title="Edit section: Buffing Time:">edit</a>] Buffing Time:

Originally, I created Pun-Pun just to be the strongest character known. At the time, the amount of time it took to buff wasn't a big deal. Now that Pun-Pun is the latest golden hind, it sort of matters how quickly he can achieve this power. (I don't really think it is important, since anyone that defeats a 5th level kobold pre-ascencion isn't really accomplishing much, minus the Omniscificer.)

So, here are a couple of methods to reduce the buffing time.

<o:p> </o:p>

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=8" title="Edit section: Temporal Acceleration">edit</a>] Temporal Acceleration

Pun-Pun has a NI manifester level for his psi-like abilities. Psi-like abilities are automatically augmented to the highest manifester level when used. This means that Pun-Pun can manifest Temporal Acceleration for a NI number of apparent rounds. That is enough time to buff himself accordingly.

The only problem with this method is that Pun-Pun cannot interact with his familiar while under the effects of Temporal Acceleration. This means that Pun-Pun wouldn't be able to increase his strength score while using TA or become a proxy of an ice assassin god clone (though I think he might still be able to invest divine ranks and recall them, not sure though).

There are more problems than that, the main one being he does not have NI manifester levels, because he does not have NI hit dice.

<o:p> </o:p>

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=9" title="Edit section: Infinite Action Loop">edit</a>] Infinite Action Loop

This is a combo that involves Affinity Field, Synchronicity, and Font of Power. Basically, both Pun-Pun and his familiar grant themselves Font of Power (Metamind prestige class). They both have the Affinity Field and Synchronicity psi-like abilities.

The familiar manifests Synchronicity, giving himself a readied action. The familiar will use that readied action to manifest Synchronicity again. Meanwhile, the effect of Synchronicity (the readied action) is passed over to Pun-Pun through the Affinity Field. So, each time the familiar manifests Synchronicity, Pun-Pun gets a standard action. With Font of Power, the familiar can continue manifesting Synchronicity in the 1 round for free, endlessly.

* Thanks to DisposableHero_ for this combo, and to Tempest Stormwind for helping me understand it.

<o:p> </o:p>

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=10" title="Edit section: Limitless HD:">edit</a>] Limitless HD:

There are several ways of going about this.

Energy Charge: I think this is the easiest way. The relevant rules can be found on page 211 of the Monster Manual 3. Basically, it functions as the opposite of Energy Drain, adding effective HD to a creature. Since the effect is supernatural, Pun-Pun can give himself a NI number of HD and make it permanent with Alter Reality.

* Thanks to RadicalTaoist for the Energy Charge discovery.

Wrong, the effective hit dice are just those, effective, and not actual.  The benefits of these effective hit dice are listed in the above reference.  Also, they are temporary and you cannot use Alter Reality or a Wish or a Miracle to make them permanent.


Awaken: The original method I used. Basically, Pun-Pun takes the form of an animal and just uses his Awaken spell-like ability a NI number of times to gain HD. Boring, yes. But it gets the job done.

Sorry, but even if you turned yourself into an animal via Wild Shape you would already count as awakened as you already have human like sentience.

Feed: This method involves Pun-Pun granting himself the Feed ability of the Barghest. Pun-Pun can then feed on humanoids to gain HD. The only hitch with this method is that it also involves using epic spells to summon humanoids with more HD than you.

NI HD is useful because it will determine his caster/manifester levels for spell-like and psi-like abilities, the amount of essentia Pun-Pun can invest, and all of the regular stuff associated with HD (BAB, skills, saves, etc.).

You would not have the Epic Spell Casting to summon (create) humanoids and you cannot summon (create) a creature with more hit dice than you, even with Epic Spell Casting.

<o:p> </o:p>

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=11" title="Edit section: Limitless Reach:">edit</a>] Limitless Reach:

For limitless reach, one needs the Magic of Incarnum supplement. The Umbral Disciple prestige class is found on page 158. Its 10th level ability is called Kiss of the Shadows. This is a supernatural ability that you can invest essentia into. For each point of essentia you invest, your reach increases by 5 ft. The only limit is your essentia capacity. However, essentia capacity is based on your HD, and Pun-Pun's HD is limitless thanks to Energy Charge.

Normally, the ability lasts only on your turn. But since it is a supernatural ability, it can be made permanent with the Alter Reality salient divine ability. Note that if Pun-Pun does not have sufficient reach to threaten someone, he can just immediately dump more essentia into it. And with a truly infinite Spot check (thanks to the Omniscificer trick) he can see anyone at any distance and whether or not he can reach them.

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=12" title="Edit section: Reaching Through the Planes:">edit</a>] Reaching Through the Planes:

What good is limitless reach if you are limited to one plane? Enter the Planar Handbook. Here's the skinny as told by LoP: Planar Breaches

Okay. All Pun-Pun has to do is repeatedly cast Precipitate Complete Breach from the Planar Handbook a number of times equal to the number of planes he would like to reach across. Complete planar breaches, unlike most planar travel effects, allow continuous travel at-will between planes at the center of the breach rather than instantaneous (i.e. discrete) teleportation.

Pun-Pun, presuming he has limitless reach, could reach through these holes and threaten any plane in the multiverse. This would require Pun-Pun sitting in the middle of an orrery array of Planar Breaches, continually recast around him in non-overlapping areas. If someone complains about orientation or line-of-sight, remember that the breaches are technically spherical, for 360 degree access/egress.

* Thanks to LordofProcrastination for this trick.

This almost works; I would love someone to try this in a game of mine.  I would rule that the resulting cacophony of overlapping and interlacing of planer matter and planar fabric would destroy nearly any creature caught in the middle.  He might even cause a demi plane to be created with whatever laws I wished (no magic and no psionics) – whoops he’s trapped until the demi plane collapses and obliterates him.

<o:p> </o:p>

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=13" title="Edit section: Limitless Speed:">edit</a>] Limitless Speed:

Pun-Pun can increase his speed without limit. This is thanks to the Incarnum Speed supernatural ability of Duskling Barbarian substitution level in Magic of Incarnum (page 44). It gives you a +10' enhancement bonus to speed for each point of essentia invested in the ability. And since Pun-Pun has NI essentia and NI essentia capacity, he can boost his speed limitlessly. And thanks to his Free Move salient divine ability, Pun-Pun can move up to his NI speed as a free action once each round.

Other Infinites or Really High Statistics:

There are a few things about Pun-Pun that are truly infinite and not simply 'limitless'. These are his saving throws, skill checks, and attack rolls. This is due to LoP's Infinite Damage Loop, found here. Further, anything based off of these statistics will likewise be infinite. (For instance, the Thunderclap ability of the Stormsinger prestige class in Frostburn deals an amount of electrical damage equal to your perform check. Since your perform check is an infinity, your damage will likewise be infinite.)

Pun-Pun's ability scores are not so much infinite as they are without limit. Pun-Pun can increase his ability scores instantly and by a very big number at a time. Using the Bellflower/Void Release combo, he basically doubles any ability score permanently with one action. Any statistic based off an ability score is therefore assumed to be NI (nigh infinite) or limitless. These are statistics such as armor class, ability checks, initiative checks, saving throw DC's, skill points, weapon damage, hit points, etc.

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=14" title="Edit section: Manipulate Form and Extreme Cheese:">edit</a>] Manipulate Form and Extreme Cheese:

For the most part, when I refer to abilities possessed by Pun-Pun, I refer to abilities that already exist in a WoTC published sourcebook. The ability is either one seen in a base class or prestige class, or one seen in a monster stat block. However, the wording in the Manipulate Form text does not limit one to published abilities only. In fact, the descriptive text states that any ability can be granted, so long as it is Supernatural, Extraordinary, or Spell-like in nature.

Allowing one the means to obtain most any ability found in published material is certainly broken. Allowing one to grant itself any ability it can conceive is ridiculousness beyond words. Basically, nothing is beyond the power of Pun-Pun, due to unrestrictive text in Manipulate Form.

Pun-Pun can grant himself an ability as innocent as:

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=15" title="Edit section: Tough it Out:">edit</a>] Tough it Out:

Benefit: If Pun-Pun would go unconscious due to any effect, he instead remains conscious.

Or, he could grant himself an ability as powerful as:

[<a href="http://www.dandwiki.com/w/index.php?title=Pun-Pun_%283.5e_Optimized_Character_Build%29&amp;action=edit&amp;section=16" title="Edit section: I Win:">edit</a>] I Win:

Benefit: Pun-Pun cannot be harmed, directly or indirectly. Any act that would harm him automatically fails, at any place and at any given time. Further, Pun-Pun automatically succeeds at anything he attempts.

Given this level of power with Manipulate Form, it would be easy to say he can do anything and no one can stop him. Generally though, I (and most everyone else that has participated in this exercise) do not use this power of Manipulate Form. It is much more fun to stay within the abilities found in the rulebooks, and doing so allows others to challenge Pun-Pun with a sliver of a chance .

LordofProcrastination devised an interesting way to justify out of the ordinary abilities without simply conjuring them from thin air. 'Out of the ordinary abilities' is referring to abilities that would normally be found as supernatural or spell-like but instead granted to Pun-Pun as extraordinary.

For example, Manipulate Form is normally a supernatural ability. However, Pun-Pun could easily stay within the parameters set by Manipulate Form and grant himself an extraordinary version of Manipulate Form. The benefit being that Pun-Pun can make himself completely immune to all magic and supernatural effects without hindering the use of his own Manipulate Form ability.

This is all too easy though, so LordofProcrastination used the Epic Spell rules in the Epic Level Handbook to create a clever workaround. Here is the low down:

Okay, here's a little combo that will help clarify things even more for Pun-Pun. In particular, it will allow for the diversification of his abilities and get past some of the inherent rancor to the "sheer player-invention" aspect of Manipulate Form.

Premise 1: Pun-Pun has access to Epic Spell Casting, and can create any pretty much Epic Spell he imagines.

To have access to Epic Spell Cast or Epic Psionic Manifesting, you must have at least 21 “real” hit dice, be a spell caster or manifester with spell/psionic slots of 9th level, and take the appropriate feat.  You cannot use Manipulate Form to give Epic Spell Casting/manifesting because there are no Epic Spell-like/Epic Manifester-like abilities.  Creatures cannot have these epic powers as innate abilities; nor can these abilities be put into an item (except the Stone Table feature of these epic spells/psionics, but those can only be used for another Epic caster/manifester to learn the spell/power).

Premise 2: The Conjure, Fortify, and Life seeds can be used in conjunction to create entirely new creatures. Furthermore, these creatures can be given abilities based on any epic seed added which "replicates the desired ability." Whether these abilities are spell-like, supernatural, or extraordinary is up to the creator of the spell.

Premise 3: The Shadow Seed can replicate any spell and any individual. The Transform seed can reproduce any creature/creature's abilities. The Ward Seed can produce immunity to any and all spells. The Reflect Seed offers protection from all ranged, melee, and spell-like attacks. And so on and so forth.

Conclusion: Pun-Pun can create creatures with pretty much any ability, spell, or feature in any mode he desires, which can then be gained through the old Manipulate Form trick. Getting an (Ex) Manipulate Form ability should be first on the list, which would then mean that there's no worrying about gaining total magical immunity. Furthermore, this means that Pun-Pun no longer has to rely on active spells (epic or not), they can all be incorporated into himself as extraordinary (that is, non-magical) abilities of any duration/method of activation desired.


  • Thanks to LordofProcrastination for this trick.

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I found this other reference to the gaining of the Pun Pun power and am adding it as I do not want to have to create another debunk thread.

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Ascension is now achievable (and has been for years... sorry) at level 1. All you need is the will and the know-how. Here's how:

1. Make sure that your alignment is not CE. LG would work best. You want to benefit the multiverse and there is no better way to do that than for it to be like puddy in your hands.
2. You need a Knowledge check of 25 to know that you can summon Pazazu like Beetlejuice. As a Psion with a Sage Psicrystal, an 18 Intelligence, the Skill Focus feat, four ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) and a masterwork item of relevance (say a book), you can take 10 to get 25. It's ok that you got bullied as a child for your narrow focus and strange fascination in all things relating to the planes. It will pay off in the end.

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First of all, the best way to do this is with a Warlock, Intelligence 18 (+4), Otherworldly Whispers Invocation (+6), Skill Focus (+3), Ranks (+4).  Now you can choose to have a lower Intelligence or spend fewer ranks.  This method does not require you to spend a lot of money that a starting character might not have (BTW, it would not be a masterwork book; it would be a masterwork library).


3. Summon Pazuzu by calling out his name three times. He'll appear and be like "Yo! What the hell?!?! What do you want Mor-tal? Power? I can give it!" You'll look all calm and not impressed and be like "I'd prefer a Lawful Evil aligned Candle of Invocation". "There is a price!" the demon lord will scream. "You must go closer to EV-ILL!!!" "Ok" you will say. "I shall be Neutral Good from now on." Pazuzu shouts "If you're going to stick with the one shift limit I would greatly prefer that you shifted to Lawful Neutral over Neutral Good!!!" You will look as if this is a deal breaker and you are ready to leave, then say "You're a real ballbuster but we have a deal."

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Sorry, but the alignment shift is not part of his deal – it is automatic and voluntary just by calling his name. A creature as Chaotic, Evil, Ancient and Powerful as him is going to ask for much more.  Just try this in my game.

Now you have your candle.
4. Use the Candle to Gate in an Efreeti. He is under your control so you will command him to grant you three wishes. The first is to Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. The second is for another Candle of Invocation. The third is to stop George Lucas from moving forward on Indiana Jones 5.
5. Use the Candle to Gate in a Sarruhk. Command him to grant you Manipulate Form through the use of Manipulate Form.

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Why would you bother with the Efreeti, just summon a Sarrukh right off the bat 

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The other problem, how would this character even know of a Sarruhk to summon one?  And if I let you summon one, I would grant you the use of Manipulate Form by turning you into a Sarruhk – then you cannot use it on yourself. . hahahaha.  They are incredible intelligent and evil creatures.  Getting backstabbed is a given.

Ascend.

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1. He is refering to the salient divine ability, which can "render magical effects permanent". You can gain these HD by many ways. If you don't want effective HD to count, how about inspired bonus HD? Or Greater Metamorphosis + Overchannel? Sooner or later, he will be able to gain HD, even if he needs to epic spellcast for it.
2. The process is no failure: The strenght score doesn't need to be natural. If you are DM, you sure can interpret it that way, but if you are a fellow player, you ultimately can't veto it, as it by RAW would count.
3. The Ice Assasin spell CAN, as it entirely replicates the victim (RAW again). However, getting the components is nearly impossible...
4."To have access to Epic Spell Cast or Epic Psionic Manifesting, you must have at least 21 “real” hit dice, be a spell caster or manifester with spell/psionic slots of 9th level, and take the appropriate feat."
Where does it say "real" HD (the chameleons ability most likely will make this possible)? Not to mention that there can be racial HD and stuff. Even if I let that one slip, the next one is hilarious:
"You cannot use Manipulate Form to give Epic Spell Casting/manifesting because there are no Epic Spell-like/Epic Manifester-like abilities."
That's like saying "Epic spells can't be dispelled, because those only stop normal spells"...
No commment... Seriously...
5. HD granted by bards count for any magic effect and stuff...
6. One big mistake: The epic spellcasting doesn't need to be HIS feat. A helpful creature having it would be enough, it developes the spell, he grants it to himself as soon as it exists.
7. "There is no reason to suspect that the Manipulate Form could duplicate a trained ability." And there is no reason to say the opposite...
Edit: 8. You counted the Awaken-Strategie as red failure, but it is a blue one. Technically, it could work.
I need to give you one thing, through: I have found no way to get Pun-Pun a level 9 slot. You really won that one.
This section is somewhat hard to follow and full of malfunctioning HTML, but one thing comes to mind immediately to an early argument given in it. The Druid's Wild Shape ability has been errata'd as working like the Alternate Form special ability, rather than the Polymorph spell. Alternate Form has no requirements on hit dice. 67.42.177.226 01:01, 16 June 2015 (MDT)

Divine Minion

Divine Minion seems more like a tried-and-died description of attempting to achieve immortality. Therefore, not something that should be handed out at level one because, level one. Here is a more-weird consideration, why would a Sarruhk transform back into a kobold?????

   * Because a Sarrukh is immune to Manipulate Form.

Pun-Pun's optimization rating

Pun-Pun hereby requests his rating be raised to 100000000000000000000000000000000000000, to match his stats. thank you

gollark: I know, yes.
gollark: Ironically, the spec here contains it (not by name) but the textbook gets it slightly wrong.
gollark: Isn't Riemann integration more of a definition than a practical approximation?
gollark: Slightly.
gollark: Remove your nails.
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