Talk:Pit Fighter (5e Class)

This class is ridiculously overpowered. You get a new skill or multiple new skills almost every level. And the fact that you could have three attacks at level 2 is beyond... please tell me this is the first time someone has written a class or this is some type of joke or "prestige" class for really super advanced games... please...

It's in line with the monk's Flurry of Blows, so there's precedent for it. Signature move, on the other hand, does seem to be rather powerful, though there are spells that deal a lot of damage so I'm not sure it's overpowered. At some point I'll sit down and look at this more thoroughly. — Geodude (talk | contribs | email)‎‎ . . 21:29, 10 September 2019 (MDT)

Pummel works the exact same as Furry of Blows, in which monks get at second level... Signature Move works like Sneak Attack except is always one damage dice behind the rogues sneak attack. As well Signature move requires the use of your bonus action, while grappling the target. Rogue does not have these restrictions and can use sneak attack at range. As well, rogues can sneak attack indefinitely once per round, signature move can only be used a number of times equal to half the Pit Fighter level. Many classes get multiple features at specific levels, so don't see that as an issue.--Aethim (talk) 09:14, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

So my issue is this, yes, it has the same as a Monk, but with the combination of everything else... it really seems like it's combining aspects of the rogue, fighter, and monk, but without the drawbacks of any of them. So, you can be in someone's face, but you get the benefit of Sneak Attack. You can do exactly what a Monk can, but you have a Fighter's HP... that's why this seems overpowered to me. And those are just a few examples. There are reasons that you can't do certain things as certain classes and it's to balance it out and not make it absolutely great in every single instance. Where are the drawbacks of this class? Because you have made a class that gets extra attacks, but has the HP to be able to take the hits, and never needs to disengage, like a Monk does occasionally, because that's how the class is built. Fighters are versatile, but they don't get a ton of abilities all the time, they do at first level, but second level is more tempered because of everything they get at first. That's why I think this class is overpowered and why I mentioned what I did. But yes, that's completely my fault for not actually explaining why I said that. I just responded out of emotion instead of logic, so I am sorry about that. And... I'm not sure how to have it automatically annotate my username and such, so I hope I added that right.  :) --Talentlessgm (talk) 13:45, 11 September 2019 (CDT)

Thank you for clarifying your concerns. There is no need to get emotional, as this is in no way personal. Though, if you do have a player that is wanting to play this class in one of your campaigns, perhaps you should address it with them. Instead of expressing your frustration here, ask them to wait until it is at a point you are comfortable with to let it into your game. This is a space meant for collaboration to get the class to a point that is enjoyable for those looking to play a professional wrestler type character. By adding ideas on how to improve the class, instead of just critiques would expedite this process.

Now to address your concerns. I wouldn't think a single ability defines any class. Fury of Blows, Sneak Attack, or Second Wind does not define the Monk, Rogue, or Fighter respectively. I can see from a high level view point, it may look like the Pit Fighter is just taking the best from each of those classes because they show up on the class table. But that is like saying Sorcerers take away from Wizards because they can cast spells. These are simple game tested mechanics to manage character progression. The Pit Fighter definitely borrows from these mechanics to stage out its CR as it progress in levels. But if you were to look at the other three classes in its entirety I would argue they are still very unique compared to the Pit Fighter.

Additionally, you mention there is no draw backs to the Pit Fighter. An understanding of the grapple rules would really help here. A grapple requires you to use up one of your attack actions and an opposed check, and if you would like to restrain the target requires the use of a second attack action and another opposed check to do that. Also, if you are medium sized creature you cannot grapple with any creature with a size of Huge (Gargantuan for Powerhouse) or higher. That leaves you to just chip away with regular attacks or Pummel during those encounters. Yes the Pit Fighter can be in someone's face, but they literally get no range type moves, and it was designed like this (What wrestler ever used ranged moves lol).

Now if you have any improvement ideas, please feel free to share. --Aethim (talk) 18:39, 11 September 2019 (MDT)

So let me start out with this, thank you for your response. I appreciate that you want to open a dialogue here. Firstly, when I say emotion, I don't actually mean I'm getting emotional, I meant that I responded without including the logic that I had. Also, I just enjoy looking at new classes/races/etc on here for homebrew, I'm not actually running a game yet, though I plan to, hopefully starting next year when my world has been completed to my satisfaction.  :)

Secondly, grappling for a medium-sized character is actually large, not huge. [PHB 195] So going up a step would give you the ability to do huge, not gargantuan. I'm very familiar with the grappling rules. [It really makes no sense for any medium sized creature, no matter their skill, to be able to grapple a great wyrm, for instance, which is gargantuan.] I understand it takes an action, however your signature move negates the need for an initial attack action, as you get damage, plus a stun, and it takes you already grappling them anyway, so you can use your action to grapple and then employ your signature move, thereby removing the biggest issue with grappling to begin with, that it takes an action. Then you basically get two additional actions with your bonus action, one with damage, plus a stun AND they're still grappled as long as you make your check, which is based on Strength, like the rest of your class is, so why would you ever go with anything other than strength. Whereas other classes tend to have secondary traits that help a lot, such as Monks have Dex and Wis, then Fighters are based on Strength, but also have benefits to branch out from only one stat. There's literally no reason to boost anything other than Strength here. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Correct, if you re read what I wrote it states "if you are medium sized creature you cannot grapple with any creature with a size of Huge (Gargantuan for Powerhouse) or higher. I think your understanding of the signature move is not quite right. it reads "When grappling, as a Bonus action may add damage to a successful attack.". That means to perform the signature move you must first grapple the target, successfully hit the target with an attack roll, and use your bonus action. Though you did catch some wording I am missing. I always meant for the grapple to end after the signature move so I will add that. Thank you. The save is a Constitution save, not a Strength save. The DC is based off the Pit Fighters Strength.--Aethim (talk) 08:22, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

I misread that, sorry about that and thank you for correcting me on that! :) --Talentlessgm (talk) 14:05, 12 September 2019 (CDT)

Also, there are no rules on being knocked prone, so I'm not sure what that rule is in there for, unless you're stating that you can knock prone creatures that, by definition, cannot be knocked prone as stated in the Monster Manual. I've been gaming and DMing for a long time, so I'm familiar with this [though not an expert and always willing to learn!]. Also, there's nothing here that states you cannot use ranged weapons, you have proficiency in any simple weapon, which includes simple ranged weapons, and you have proficiency with any improvised weapon, so there's nothing saying that you can't hit it with a ranged simple weapon. So, you can hit it with a ranged weapon, then move in and use your bonus attacks to hit with your unarmed, and then move out of range again, yes you're taking a potential hit with an attack of opportunity, but your AC is going to be pretty high for that. Now, monks only get special abilities when they're unarmed or using monk only weapons, not any weapon they're proficient with. It's possible that in the game you're playing in, it's the same regardless, but that makes a big difference for a lot of things, and is in the PHB.

Prone is simply a condition, and has specific disadvantages when it is applied to you. Look at the "Conditions" rule set. Knocked Prone generally falls under the "Shoving" ruleset. When shoving you may choose to push the target 5 feet, or knock them prone. You may shove as one of your attacks when taking the Attack action. Monsters may have immunity to Prone, just like any other conditions. There is no real RAW about the limits of knocking something prone, such as a size being to big like grapple. That is where the DM will have to use their better judgment. Like... creatures with multiple legs, if they don't have the immune to prone ability perhaps its just a lot harder or the DM rules they are just immune to it.--Aethim (talk) 08:22, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

But it doesn't fall under there. Read the PHB, there's nothing about size in there, not to mention that research online shows the same thing. If you have that as a homebrew rule, that's completely cool, however, that's not a default rule. Both shoving and grappling [which are under the same heading in the PHB] talk about size, but being knocked prone does not. Because, for example, a medium character can knock prone a huge character, like a fire giant, by knocking its legs out. Makes no sense that it's not knocked prone simply because you're too small, like with grappling or shoving, where size does matter. --Talentlessgm (talk) 13:53, 12 September 2019 (CDT)

At this point I'm getting the feeling you are debating just for the sake of debating. This is the second time you say I'm wrong, just to repeat what I said. Re read my comment, I know the PHB doesn't say anything to do with prone and size. That's why I said DM discretion is needed there, to make the case why a target can or cannot be made prone. If you don't know the acronym RAW means Rules As Written.--Aethim (talk) 15:10, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

I'm not just debating for the sake of debating. The reason that I made a point about this one is because you basically state there aren't any rules, but then debate like there are rules for it. Then go back to saying well, it's up to the GM. However, you have it in your write-up, like it's RAW [yes, I know what this means :), when I don't know something I do try to look it up, but in this case, I knew what that meant] like it says something in there about it. You specifically call out that it's a size up for knocking prone purposes, however there aren't any rules in there about this. [And if you've changed it by now, then please ignore all of this!] I'm not trying to debate what you're saying here, I'm debating why the rules in your write-up are the way they are. Wouldn't the size thing be better stated as for combat rules? Or that you ignore movement rules as opposed to saying what it does work for when you're saying things that don't make sense for the basic rules, which is what should be written for, not for homebrew rules or personal rules [unless you're citing those specifically]. Anyway, we don't have to talk about this section anymore if you don't want to. It's a small thing.  :) --Talentlessgm (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2019 (CDT)

Changed the wording to simple melee weapons.--Aethim (talk) 08:34, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

I'm curious about your thoughts on this. Thank you again for your response and have a great day! --Talentlessgm (talk) 20:32, 11 September 2019 (CDT)

Also, I just noticed the Face/Heel options, which I thought was a permanent choice, but I must have glossed over the fact that it's actually a choice you make every day? How does this make RP sense? People don't perceive you how you want just because you say so, they do based on your choices. The Wrestler homebrew does this much better where it's based on your alignment, not on a choice you get to make every single day [every long rest]. So, that means, if you know what's coming up next, you just switch to get the better benefit, this seems very powerful in comparison to other abilities that other classes get. --Talentlessgm (talk) 20:47, 11 September 2019 (CDT)

I guess my questions to you would be, how much do you follow Professional Wrestling? Because this is a common thematic device used in their story writing. Wrestlers will literally "Turn Heel" or "Turn Face" overnight. That doesn't mean the fans always accept it, but for that ongoing story line they are considered a Heel or Face regardless. Alignments are becoming less and less relevant in D&D, so as a personal preference I avoid tieing any abilities to alignment. Even detect Good/Evil doesn't use alignment anymore. The Persona feature is just an exaggeration of this concept. Any class can prepare better if they know what is coming. I don't see this as an issue. Also Intimidate and Persuasion is generally used interchangeably, and is matter how you word your interactions or present your body language. This ability I am interested in how it play tests though. I did not know the Wrestler Homebrew existed. I find it very cool regarding the similarities between the two. Thanks for pointing this out.--Aethim (talk) 08:22, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

So, yes, I do follow professional wrestling. [Actually my grandmother LOVED it, and so I followed it so that I could talk to her about it. :)] And traditionally you have the "bad" characters and the "good" characters, and the responses from the crowd show that. You state right here that the fans don't always accept it, however, you're having fan responses to that. The reason I cited the Wrestler class is because it takes it out of your control, which is [in my opinion at least] more accurate than letting you choose and flip day to day. If you don't want to do the alignment, I completely understand that, it was just, again in my opinion, a great way to do this because it's based on your actions, which is what alignment is based on. [Not to mention, while alignment might not be important to you, there are plenty of GMs and players where it is very important. However, this is your class, so obviously if it's not important to you, you wouldn't want to use that.] You could instead make it a permanent choice, making it more in line thematically and less of what I consider an overpowered option. Also, when they do happen to switch, it's not a daily thing, they've "become" evil or good, not just evil or good for a minute for the one fight. OR there's a good reason, like revenge that they're the good/bad guy. You also mention about the fact that the script dictates that, it's out of their control, the script states this. While, I'm sure the actor gets to talk about this, especially if he's really popular already, ultimately it's the *story's* decision, not the actor's. You're making it the actor's, whereas, something like alignment, makes it the story's decision.

Again this is an exaggeration of the way it plays out in actual Professional Wrestling. Just like how when wrestlers call their moves electrifying, they aren't actually electrified. But I thought it would be a fun concept to allow a Pit Fighters moves to actually be electric. The DM can always rule its based off alignment, actions etc...--Aethim (talk) 15:10, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

Using the phrase "electrifying" is colorful language. Claiming that flipping from day to day is not just colorful language. Just a clarification here.  :) Especially as making them actually electric is a fun thing! But that's not what we were discussing here. --Talentlessgm (talk) 20:22, 12 September 2019 (CDT)

And, to you, intimidate [edit - fixed spelling lol] and persuade may be the same thing, but they are absolutely not when you're roleplaying. There's a big difference between threatening someone and trying to convince them that it's their own idea. They may implement what you want in both, but in massively different ways. [Also someone may respond well to persuasion but not to intimidation, or vice versa, depending on their history and personality.] It's also possible that the character your playing dictates which you would do, a huge half-orc covered in tattoos versus a sexy elf. Also, if it's interchangable, why are there separate skills for them and separate proficiences? Wouldn't that mean that there should just be one and it should be up to the GM which one makes more sense, or up to the player how they want to use that particular skill? Like make it Fast-Talk or something instead... right? --Talentlessgm (talk) 14:05, 12 September 2019 (CDT)

No they are not the same, but there is a very fine line. They are pretty much used in the same situations, and what is used is determined by how you approach the situation.--Aethim (talk) 15:10, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

So this is a disagreement about how things work. You say they're used in the same situations, and they *can* be, however, they are not interchangable. I wouldn't want to intimidate someone that I really cared for simply for them to see things my way in a non-life or death situation. I wouldn't ever do that. Threatening someone is generally used in specific circumstances as is persuading someone, sometimes those overlap, sometimes they don't. Try intimidating everyone at work instead of persuading and see how long you keep your job!  :) However, this is a difference in probably how we see situations or RP, so we're not going to agree on this, and that's perfectly fine! You don't have to see things the same as than I do, but the rules state they're different, so for our purposes they should be. Unless again, your homebrew rules have them as the same, which is fine, but the general rules don't nor does anyone I know RP or play games that way. [Computer, table-top or otherwise.] --Talentlessgm (talk) 19:51, 12 September 2019 (CDT)

Adjusted Signature Move Damage to better align with other classes damage output at later levels.--Aethim (talk) 10:28, 12 September 2019 (MDT)

Staying on Topic

Please keep the discussion focused on this page, the mechanics, and the problems. Discussing the intimidation skill is not on topic, and trying to extrapolate the skill into real life is not acceptable. See the reference policy. Any further violations may result in consequences. --Green Dragon (talk) 02:18, 14 September 2019 (MDT)