Talk:Hiemalis (5e Class)

Okay everyone, this is my first try at creating a class myself. My rule of balancing is "When in doubt, reduce the power." That way, if a player comes up to a DM, they show that its not to powergame, but more for the flavour of the class. And the DM can then buff it as they see fit. However, what I and you see as balanced/weak might be different, so feel free to ask questions and make suggestions.

I will most likly not make more than one archetype, though if I get enough ideas that may change.

Hiemalis is latin and means "wintery, cold, stormy", and this fits my thinking behind it: a ice and lightning, weapon using mage with a summon. All that, to make my perfect class. By that I dont mean to make this class untouchable, but simply create the class that I would be happy to play, without any complaints concerning the class.

-- Celepito (talk)

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Questions

Leave your questions here, so I can answer them.

Balancing discussions

I am unsure if I should increase the Hitdice from d6 to d8. Both the druid and the Warlock also get d8, while Sorcerer and Wizard have the d6. On one hand you need to use actual weapons, with the best possible damage in melee, which would advocate for the d8. On the other hand, you already get quite a lot of defensice tools (Howling Winds and its improvements, Fast as Lightning, Superconductor, Cyclone Companion and its improvements/Extra Speed). With that I think that the Hitdice should remain at the d6, but I would be happy to have outside opinions on this.

Regarding the damage balance section from the Class design guide of this website:

Living Storm

Level 1:

Standard: light crossbow with 16 in Dexterity:

1d8 +3 = average 6,5 damage (guide is at 13)

All out:

Thunderwave: 2d8 = average 9 damage (guide is at 13)

Level 5:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

Hippogriff summon: 1d10 +3 + 2d6 +3 = average 18,5 damage

Result: 33 average damage (guide is at 24)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

Hippogriff summon: 1d10 +3 + 2d6 +3 = average 18,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 39 average damage

All out:

Thunderwave (Spell level 2) or Shatter: 3d8 = average 13,5 damage

Hippogriff summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 +3 + 2d6 +3 = average 18,5 damage

Result: 32 average damage (guide is at 54)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Thunderwave (Spell level 2) or Shatter: 3d8 = average 13,5 damage

Hippogriff summon, 2 attacks: 1d10 +3 + 2d6 +3 = average 18,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 38 average damage

Level 11: (While I realize that for example a Griffon would be a better summon going just damage wise, the increased survivability of a higher CR summon has me looking at CR3 monsters. However, I was not terribly thorough in my search, as to not spoil myself too much. I have simply gone and looked at the SRD for 5e, and the Manticore seems to be the most versatile of the bunch, with ranged, flight, speaking and multiattack. If anyone thinks another summon would be better at a tier, please make a suggestion.)

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage

Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage [Griffon summon: (2d6 +4 +1d6) + (1d8 +4 +1d6) = average 26,5 damage]

Result: 41 average damage (guide is at 48) [With Griffon at 45,5]

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage

Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage [Griffon summon: (2d6 +4 +1d6) + (1d8 +4 +1d6) = average 26,5 damage]

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage

Result: 51 average damage [With Griffon at 55,5]

All out:

Lightning Bolt: 8d6 = average 28 damage

Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage [Griffon summon: (2d6 +4 +1d6) + (1d8 +4 +1d6) = average 26,5 damage]

Result: 50 average damage (guide is at 145) [With Griffon at 54,5]

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Lightning Bolt: 8d6 = average 28 damage

Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage [Griffon summon: (2d6 +4 +1d6) + (1d8 +4 +1d6) = average 26,5 damage]

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage

Result: 60 average damage [With Griffon at 64,5]

Level 17 and 20:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage

Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage [Griffon summon: (2d6 +4 +1d6) + (1d8 +4 +1d6) = average 26,5 damage]

Result: 44,5 average damage (guide is at 53) [With Griffon at 49]

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage

Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage [Griffon summon: (2d6 +4 +1d6) + (1d8 +4 +1d6) = average 26,5 damage]

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage

Result: 58,5 average damage [With Griffon at 63]

All out:

Cone of Cold: 8d8 = average 36 damage

Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2for average 22 damage [Griffon summon: (2d6 +4 +1d6) + (1d8 +4 +1d6) = average 26,5 damage]

Result: 57 average damage (guide is at 145) [With Griffon at 61,5]

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Cone of Cold: 8d8 = average 36 damage

Manticore summon, 2 attacks: +1d8 +3 +1d6 = 10 x2 for average 22 damage [Griffon summon: (2d6 +4 +1d6) + (1d8 +4 +1d6) = average 26,5 damage]

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage

Result: 71 average damage [With Griffon at 75,5]

I would call balanced in that department. The trade-off with this archertype would be possibly too strong continuous damage, with abysmal (in comparison) damage spikes. We are still below a level 11 fighter in terms of all out attack, not to mention the wizard. Then again, if we say that the fighter has the "Great Weapon Master" feat and uses that on two attacks, the playing field already seems different. But, do you all think that the balance is okay?

One of the bigger issues with this Archetype will most likely be the permanent flight at level 3, due to the summon (Giant Owl is CR 1/4). But the DM normally has to plan with the fly spell anyways. Maybe not at that level, but it helps the class a bit. It is also easy to homerule out, simply say "no flying speed", job done.

As for Spellcasting and Energy, you would need to do 790 damage, with only your own weapon attacks, to match a full caster. If we go with the average damage of 21, that would be ~38 attacks between rests. If we roll max damage on every attack, we are looking at ~24 attacks. Each representing a full round, since you dont get extra attacks, and the companion/spells dont generate energy. Hell, it has to be even more rounds than that, since you can only save up to 200 Energy, so you need to cast. And your highest spell is level 5. I think it should be good there. You can cast more freely than a Warlock, I guess, but the Warlock also gets the Mystic Arcanums and the Eldritch Invocations, so I would say it's fine on that front too.

-- Celepito (talk) 15:59, 10 April 2019 (MDT)

Storm Cell

Level 1:

Standard: light crossbow with 16 in Dexterity:

1d8 +3 = average 6,5 damage (guide is at 13)

All out:

Thunderwave: 2d8 = average 9 damage (guide is at 13)

Level 5:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage (guide is at 24)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 20,5 average damage

Supercharged:

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage (guide is at 24)

Supercharged with set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 18 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +4 +1d6 = average 14,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 20,5 average damage

All out:

Thunderwave (Spell level 2) or Shatter while Supercharged: 5d8 = average 22,5 damage (guide is at 54)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Thunderwave (Spell level 2) or Shatter while Supercharged: 5d8 = average 22,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d2 = average 6 damage

Result: 28,5 average damage

Level 11:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage (guide is at 48)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage (guide is at 48)

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage

Result: 29 average damage

Supercharged:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage, times 1,5 with Tesla Coil for average 28,5 damage (guide is at 48)

Supercharged with set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +2d6 = average 19 damage, times 1,5 with Tesla Coil for average 28,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage, times 1,5 with Tesla Coil for average 15 damage

Result: 43,5 average damage

All out:

Lightning Bolt while Supercharged: 10d6 = average 35 damage (guide is at 145)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Lightning Bolt while Supercharged: 10d6 = average 35 damage

Howling Winds: 4d4 = average 10 damage (no Tesla Coil after Casting, since Energy Level is too low)

Result: 45 average damage

Level 17 and 20:

Standard:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage (guide is at 53)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage

Result: 36,5 average damage

Supercharged:

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage, times 1,5 rounded up with Tesla Coil for average 34 damage (guide is at 53)

Supercharged with set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Greatsword/Maul with 20 in Dexterity/Strenght: 2d6 +5 +3d6 = average 22,5 damage, times 1,5 rounded up with Tesla Coil for average 34 damage

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage, times 1,5 with Tesla Coil for average 21 damage

Result: 55 average damage

All out:

Cone of Cold while Supercharged: 10d8 = average 45 damage (guide is at 145)

With set-up (Howling Winds, one enemy):

Cone of Cold while Supercharged: 10d8 = average 45 damage

Howling Winds: 4d6 = average 14 damage (no Tesla Coil after Casting, since Energy Level is too low)

Result: 59 average damage

This archetype can cast more, and stronger, though it loses some sustained damage. However, against groups of enemies this should be absoulutly devestating, since Howling Winds gives you so much Energy, allowing for more casting and throwing out tesla coils. Doing so needs you to be closer to the enemies though, as you want to have as many enemies as possible in the area. With Living Storm Howling Winds is simply a nice additional source of damage. I am really uncertain in the balance department here though, I can't properly judge AoEs balance wise. I would say it is balanced, since you need to get supercharged first, which needs at least two turns against one enemy. With the average encounter duration being between 4 and 7 turns IIRC, this should be fine? Tough once you are there, you can simply stay at that level... then again, to cast you would spend Energy again, losing the bonus ... but lots of encounters are more than one enemy... as I said I am uncertain here.

As for the spellcasting amount, you would still need to do 790 damage at level 20 to match a full caster. Weather Dynamo allows you to get there faster, but it still needs you to do damage, so we are good here, I would say?

-- Celepito (talk) 08:17, 3 May 2019 (MDT)

Hello there! I was taking a look at your class, and I think honestly its very interesting. I do have a few thoughts though. For one, I think that the class should get a d8 hit die. So far in the base classes, only full casters take a d6, and this class is for one not a full caster, and two, seems to be indended to be in the thick of the fight. And while howling wind could be quite a nice defensive ability, I don't think it would truly slow down enough enemies to make that jump in hit die viable.

I think another change this class could potentially use is the ability to apply the bonus damage to an existing weapon. So for example, if there is already some fun or nice weapon the character has, they could instead enhance it with ice, water and lighting for some bonus damage.

As much as I would like an extra attack, I admit I'm not sure if it needs it? I do think having a later one, like at 11th level could help with energy gain, but I'm unsure of the balance in that aspect.

- UmbralJester

For the hit dice situation, take a look at the top of the balancing discussion. For one, Howling Winds counts as difficult terrain for everyone else, meaning half speed, and then you half the remaining speed again at level 6+. Which means the enemy moves at 1/4 their normal speed. Practically speaking, your only problem will be ranged attacks of any kind. Then you have to remember that you have basically double HP if you go Living Strom, due to the summon. If you get more HP base-line, the issue only gets worse. And then you get two resistances against somewhat common damage types on top of all that, and I think the d6 should be the way to go, otherwise you might be too safe for a damage-centered class.

As for Stormy Weaponry, what I was thinking is that you only have simple weapons proficiency base-line. And the best weapons are martial. So the idea is that you summon a martial weapon to go around the proficiency restriction, which is why I dont really want to let it apply to already existing weapons, because why would you want to use "worse" weapons. At the same time, there should be no real issue with letting it apply, because of the same reason; the weapons you could use that part of the ability on would be weaker anyway, so why not.

Lastly, no extra attack, because that would double the damage. If you take a look at all the math above, a lot of the time doubeling the damage of your attack would push you beyond the average value. Since it would also add the extra energy, I can only describe it as too much. And I would need to throw out one of the existing abilities to make room for the extra attack ability.

--Celepito (talk) 12:11, 20 August 2019 (MDT)

Hmm, would it make it too powerful to allow weapons you use with stormy weapon to become finesse? For example, if you had a decent club you wanted to use, but your strength score was rather low. Then, you could enhance the club with stormy weaponry, causing it to become finesse as well as give it bonus damage. It doesn't seem like it's too much of a change, as it essentially gives a slightly better versatility. It's similar to the effect of shillelagh but with dexterity.

- UmbralJester again

While I wouldnt say it would be too strong, dexterity is already a really strong stat, and giving it even more power really isnt needed. There are already finesse weapons that you can summon, as well as the ranged weapons. If you can convince your DM to add it, go ahead, but I dont think it is needed. This way, to have the best damage you can get (Maul, Greatsword, Greataxe, Lance), you will need to sacrifice something else.

--Celepito (talk) 11:13, 20 September 2019 (MDT)

After some more thinking and some math, I have come to the conclusion that it would not make a difference at all, since this would also allow one to use ranged weapons with strenght. I have also realized that martial weapon proficiency should be fine as well.

--Celepito (talk) 05:53, 1 October 2019 (MDT)