Talk:Hellfire Knight (3.5e Class)

Formatting Issues

I'm having some trouble with the main table. I'm trying to fill in the Infernal Surge column with the appropriate values, but no matter what I try I can't seem to get it to work. Help would be deeply appreciated. - ThunderGod Cid 11:37, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Better? Also, it seems odd to grant Eternal Damnation and 19 and have an empty (aside from the Strength boost) level 20. Usually 20 offers the pinnacle. -- Jota 13:54, 4 April 2009 (MDT)

Muy bien. Although 20 is usually a pinnacle level, 19 has nothing if I don't include Eternal Damnation there. I was just thinking that this way there was at least some benefit to every level (although now that I think about it, the fact that the only thing 20 grants is the Strength bonus makes it not really worth a whole new level, so to basically get the most out of the class you would only have to go to 19). Is that something along the line of what you were thinking? - ThunderGod Cid 08:57, 10 April 2009 (MDT)

More or less. -- Jota 09:21, 10 April 2009 (MDT)

Changed to 20 now. - ThunderGod Cid 10:12, 10 April 2009 (MDT)

2d10?

is that a typo, or does this class just give you 20 hp per level?

I really like the flavor of this class, but its a little OP imho. --Name Violation 04:32, 4 October 2009 (MDT)

See the history, it was vandalized. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.179.66.227 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts. aka User:Ghostwheel - this last addition added for you by Hooper for some unknown reason though - though who knows why, since a simple checkuser reveals that it's not him at all... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 208.53.157.16 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

Yes, yes it appears those edits were in bad faith. Removing now. Thanks for bringing it up. Also, please sign in and sign your posts.   Hooper   talk    contribs    email   12:13, 4 October 2009 (MDT)

Since "anonymous IPs" keep feeling the need to alter the above, let us just stop lying now. It is retarded. I don't even think Ghostwheel is banned at the moment so it isn't a big deal (unless I'm mistaken, that is). Anyways, let us prove you IPs are lying: The IP 208.179.66.227 makes this edit and then over at the other site Ghostwheel makes two edits: one linking Surgo to that edit and another admitting to authoring it on another user's "Canned Responses" page. This is retarded guys. It isn't even a big deal. Lying just destroys your credibility and you're lying over the most useless thing. (Note:no links to other site as not going to spam and they'll probably just delete it really quick anyways)  Hooper   talk    contribs    email   20:42, 4 October 2009 (MDT)

Wasn't that user banned, and didn't he leave? Can't think he'd care for any credibility on this site whatsoever after all that happened, what with the meltdown the wiki had... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.90.104.63 (talk • contribs) . Please sign your posts.

OP

As discussed by others, this class is pretty OP. Even after my DM nerfed my character to double my self-damage, the max HD per level make health no concern. It's crazy. I soloed a giant scorpion and a vampiric gibbering mouther at lvl 11. Coupled with rabicund frenzy and haste I could dish out an average of 30 dmg per round. The energy resistance and strength bonuses exponentially increase this class' tank properties.

My initial reaction to this is "OMG 30 DAMAGE!1one!" Like that's impressive. I'd bet a third level barbarian could do that pretty easily. Anyone who can fly can take a monstrous scorpion, and more or less everyone should be able to (fly) in some form or another at that level. As a closet troll it's different, but that's not a desert, now is it? Gibbering mouther isn't exactly impressive either. It's got crappy grapple abilities, and assuming you can make the Fortitude save versus blinding it's an easy one round KO. You don't even have to save given that the range is 30' and you can charge. So I guess my point is this: what is your point? You should be able to solo those things (maybe not the scorpion in melee) at level 11, unless you meant the two together, and even then, I'm not sure that's crazy either. Drop the mouther in one round then focus on the scorpion (whose size you didn't specify, by the way). Maybe your DM is just playing monsters incompetently? Because an equivalent CR scorpion should really just grapple you to death. -- Jota 18:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Thoughts and Musings

I am currently playing through my first campaign with a Hellfire Knight and I just wanted to take the time to point out some of the minor tweaks that have had to be made. My general thoughts about this class is it's fairly well balanced it doesn't allow you to break barriers that you couldn't already break with other classes if you had the appropriate stats. The one issue I could see with balance is the Greatest Trick; as instant invisibility at such a low level is a bit ridiculous. To remedy this the DM overseeing our game went ahead and gutted it and replaced it with Weapon Specialization (lvl 4) and Greater Weapon Specialization (lvl 8) to emphasize the DPS component of this class without allowing it to trample over enemies. I feel that personally a more solid DPS boost is more sensibile than granting an invisibility spell. Universal weapon proficiencies were also removed in favor of emphasizing one weapon class that would stay with the Hellfire knight throughout the campaign; in this case a great sword instead of the favored falchion for a more consistent DPS output. This class could use a bit more flavor and restrictions to allow it to fully fill its designated role as a DPS machine and a tank when the need arises. Also, infernal surge is pretty much useless until level 4 where the addition of another hit die allow it to keep up with other DPS classes such as Rangers. I believe that after level 20 the 9th circle restrictions should be eased to allow multiple strikes a day as at that point you are already roflraping the fuck out of everything and as an outsider the flow of the story begins to shift. You become more self sufficient and it allows for a possibility of interesting story telling options with the hellfire knight becoming a protaganist rather than remaining part of the party. Although that is really up to the DM to decide in accordance with the ongoing storyline.

Other suggestions, this isn't really a flaw or at least it isn't a preceived flaw as of yet but there is a gap from Brimstone Blade all the way to Speed of the Damned in terms of melee DPS, that of course being the primary mode of attack with this class. Brimstone blade isn't specified in terms of what kind of action it is. We have set as a free action which allows the Hellfire knight to be unburdened with gearing up before using it. Wicked Countenance is as far as I can tell useless due to the small amount of utility it has considering the required sacrifice of 2d4 which isn't a lot of hitpoints but it isn't all that appealing considering its level and the level of monsters you would be fighting.

I wish there was a bit more lore. This class is by far the fucking most awesome of the homebrew classes (how could you get any better than a demon knight?) and it deserves a bit more attention in my opinion. All in all I think this is a fantastic class in small party settings and that with a little more work it could be perfected. -- Lololololo OMG

I don't mind the invisibility considering how many HP it costs to maintain SaturnUndead (talk) 16:19, 6 February 2013 (MST)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it could use some minor tweaks to balance out its power such as getting rid of Greatest Trick. -- Lolololo OMG

Wording - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5 because there are some vague areas that need specification. -- Lolololo OMG

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it is rather easy to follow and understand with little difficulty. -- Lolololo OMG

Flavor - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because with a little tweaking it could blow other classes out of the water in terms of fun and usefulness in roleplaying. -- Lolololo OMG

Rating: Wearing a Red Dress to a Funeral [OP]

Power - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because it stands rather overpowered endowing players with extraordinary feats and battle capability far beyond the threshold of any normal character of equal level. Invisibility at third level, permanent haste at ninth level, and a hellfire explosion with a blast radius of 50 feet are but a few of the examples that exhibit the enthusiasm of the developer for this class, but also a lack of standard balance and regulation. --67.143.89.229 11:56, 24 September 2010 (MDT)

"Far beyond the power level of any character of equivalent level?" Maybe if you compare it to a commoner. Otherwise, hardly. A wizard of the same level can bust out the same invisbility spell for what is basically an equal duration. Same with haste. Keep in mind that the hellfire knight constantly takes damage while surging, and even he has a death wish or a tireless cleric on hand the effect is hardly permanent. At level 18, when the hellfire knight uses all of his surge for one area effect, the wizard uses delayed blast fireball for the same amount of damage and can do it again his next turn. Yay, 18d6 damage fo what is basically death! Whoop-de-doo!

Now that I'm looking at it now, I actually think it's not strong enough. I guess that's differences of opinion for you. - TG Cid 12:46, 26 September 2010 (MDT)

Wording - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because it met standards of grammar, spelling, and punctuation, but a lack of citation for the quotes such as the one describing "The Greatest Trick" ability. If one cannot recall the source of a quote, one might as well not quote at all. --67.143.89.229 11:56, 24 September 2010 (MDT)

It's not like I don't know where it's from. The quote's from the movie The Usual Suspects, but I make a habit of not including real-world references in a D&D-related article. If I'm quoting a person (like Nietzche) it's more OK, but usually not stuff like movies. If you wish, however, I could remove it and we could all pretend I made it up. - TG Cid 12:46, 26 September 2010 (MDT)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it met standards of presentation and formatting for the site. --67.143.89.229 11:56, 24 September 2010 (MDT)

Flavor - 2/5 I give this class a 2 out of 5 because its attempt at redefining the "damned warrior" archetype falls short of success and, much less, anything magnificent. Alignment penalties seem rather lenient as characters no longer Lawful or Evil incur no penalties, roleplaying or otherwise. One would assume the Infernal Plane would forbid, if not punish, a non-Lawful Evil being from abusing its power. Also, the number of abilities and their benefits overwhelm the charm and fun of the class. Too much flavor may spoil a fancy dish; less is more. --67.143.89.229 11:56, 24 September 2010 (MDT)

Flavor is a terribly subjective monster, so I won't even dispute this. To each his own. - TG Cid 12:46, 26 September 2010 (MDT)

Looks good but needs some editing work.

Rating

Power - <<<4>>>/5 I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<<it has a lot of power, but sacrifices a lot of health. Making him a hard character to keep alive, unless directly paired with a healer.>>> --173.245.55.109 23:20, 19 May 2012 (MDT)

Wording - <<<4>>>/5 I give this class a <<<4>>> out of 5 because <<<the wording is pretty good, although there are some errors in your own chart. The Hells of Fire power in the description says that the class gets the increased version at level 10 but the chart says level 8.>>> --173.245.55.109 23:20, 19 May 2012 (MDT)

Formatting - <<<3.5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<3.5>>> out of 5 because <<<again you have The Hells of Fire power in the description says that the class gets the increased version at level 10 but the chart says level 8. Also the increase in Strength becomes ridiculous at later levels, and the barbarian who is all about the power hits pairs in comparison. Also try to give him the spell like ability's when or one level after a caster would get it.>>> --173.245.55.109 23:20, 19 May 2012 (MDT)

Flavor - <<<5>>>/5 I give this class a <<<5>>> out of 5 because <<<honestly its a great class, lots of style and originality. Its got some power to back it up and some magical effects where strength just doesn't cut it. Good Job! >>> --173.245.55.109 23:20, 19 May 2012 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --74.88.15.20 14:16, 18 December 2012 (MST)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --74.88.15.20 14:16, 18 December 2012 (MST)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --74.88.15.20 14:16, 18 December 2012 (MST)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a <<<Insert Your Rating Here>>> out of 5 because <<<insert why you gave the rating and how to improve it>>> --74.88.15.20 14:16, 18 December 2012 (MST)

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the HP cost of the strongest abilities prevents them from being used excessively. --SaturnUndead (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2013 (MST)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the descriptions and explanations were easy to understand --SaturnUndead (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2013 (MST)

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the lists, paragraphs, and charts were easy to understand --SaturnUndead (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2013 (MST)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I love the idea of villains being more literally destroyed by their own actions, having to commit to their own self-destruction to more powerfully harm others. --SaturnUndead (talk) 16:14, 6 February 2013 (MST)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because, while most of the abilities balance fairly well due to the HP sacrifice, there are a few that I could see being pretty badly abused.

The Greatest Trick stands out the most to me. For instance, I built a Hellfire Knight with one level in Rogue. With one level in Rogue and eight in Hellfire Knight, I can be invisible all the time in combat. This pretty much gives me freebie sneak attacks. Assuming I'm using a Falchion that I've hit with Brimstone Blade, that gives me 2d4 weapon damage +1d6 Hellfire damage +1d6 Sneak attack damage in addition to the bonus Strength damage. Add that to the fact that I now have +2 to attack rolls and hit their flat-footed AC for being invisible, and I gain total concealment against their attacks... oof. That's worth an additional 1d4 damage per round, easily. I also have 18 rounds of Infernal Surge at 8 levels in Hellfire Knight. Assuming 7-second rounds, I could also see plenty of out-of-combat uses for 2 minutes and 6 seconds of invisibility, though admittedly, it can be dangerous to burn health and rounds of Surge outside of combat.

Personally, I like the suggestion to replace The Greatest Trick with Weapon Specialization (lvl 4) and Greater Weapon Specialization (lvl 8). It is pretty powerful at mid to low levels to add an additional 4 damage to every hit, but it does sacrifice some late game utility. Alternatively, I would recommend moving The Greatest Trick up to higher levels; perhaps 6th and 12th level? This would give the DM a few more reasonable options to counter it.

That's the only really egregious one. I am a little skeptical of Eternal Damnation permanently putting you under the effects of Fiendish Acuity. Outsiders already gain Darkvision out to 60 feet. Add on top of that See Invisibility, Tremorsense, and True Seeing? Granted, things get a bit ridiculous at level 20 anyway, but it gives me pause for a second. --Chaerod

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the wording is clear and concise, without being too "air tight". It gives a little bit of wiggle room without allowing a player or DM to twist things around too much. --Chaerod

Formatting - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the lists and charts are all formatted clearly. --Chaerod

Flavor - 4.5/5 I give this class a 4.5 out of 5 because there are a lot of things you can do to explain how someone got their power, and it gives an interesting dynamic to add to a party. It also leaves plenty of options for solo campaigns. How did the Hellfire Knight gain their abilities? Did they make a deal with a demon lord to save a loved one, like my Hellfire Knight? Did they claw their way up out of Hell, like my DM's Ultimate Hellfire Murder Hobo? Or did they earn the displeasure of a powerful entity, forever branding them in the eyes of the holy? Lots of possibilities to explore, and it offers plenty of potential plot hooks for a DM to toss out if things get slow.

I could see a bad player contracting "Main Character Syndrome" as my friends and I call it, which takes too much attention away from the rest of the group, but you can't account for everything. That's really the only thing keeping me from giving it a full 5/5.

I would caution anyone to get a feel for their group and their DM before jumping into this class, just like any other "evil" class. Something I really like, though, is that the only alignment restriction is "non-good". I don't particularly like being locked in to "Evil" or "Good" because the spectrum of Neutral alignments offer a lot of possibilities. I particularly enjoy the idea of a Lawful Neutral Hellfire Knight in service to a demon lord. Though any Sense Evil will register them as evil, the character does not have to be evil themselves. --Chaerod