Talk:Gemini Dancer (3.5e Class)

Roleplaying Info

You should really put in some roleplaying information (like alignment, other classes, etc.) It would really help players that want to use this in a game. --Baalzamon999

You already have it. Gemini Dancer is a PrC. What does this mean? It means that you already have class levels in something else. Does it not stand to reason that you're rogue will continue to interact with other classes like a rogue?

PC: My CE Sorceror just took a level in Necrocarnate, so I'm to skip around in flowery meadows and give people presesnts!

DM: Umm.. no.

The way your character interacts isnt even that guidlined. You could have a paladin who is discourtius to anyone who is not LG, simply because it's your character. Your creative license to do whatever the bloody hell you wan't. You don't really need role-playing guidelines, you already know your character, its not likely that your character will suddenly change simply because he took a level in a different class. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lord Canius (talk • contribs) 00:24, 6 April 2006. Please sign your posts.

This class is NOT a PrC, as it is 20 levels long. It should include roleplaying information. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.52.200.111 (talk • contribs) 17:55, 6 April 2006. Please sign your posts.

no this was not a PrC ever, not sure how it was placed in PrC at all. Also, there is descriptive text, but we have more if people would like it. --frasmage

Have more of what? --Green Dragon 18:11, 12 December 2006 (MST)

flavor text. We did more on the forum. If someone wouldn't mind transfering it, I am not quite sure how to format wiki, but I can give someone the material. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=598478&page=1&pp=50 It is right after the class benefits section (I have starting packages and "GDs in the world". Also note, there are many more danse styles than are listed here, those could be fixed up too. I apologize for not doing it myself, but hte wiki coding is very different from what I am used to --frasmage

I will help soon... However, you are allowed to use HTML on D&D Wiki, do you know HTML? --Green Dragon 15:36, 14 December 2006 (MST)

I believe this was inteded to be added

I added in being fatigued at the end of the dance as this near mirrors the Dervish prestige class from Complete Adventurer (Or is it Warrior?). There's further evidence in this with the Tireless Dance ability added at 17th level.

I like this class a lot. I play a Dervish now and enjoy it a lot. Comparing this with the Dervish it does seem pretty balanced from the start. I'll need a bit more time to go over it as I'm rushing off to work now. --Xenophon 23:15, 26 November 2006 (MST)

I think the fatigued is supposed to be added in their. Thanks for doing that. --Green Dragon 19:35, 27 November 2006 (MST)

Balance - 10/10

I give this class 10/10 for originality, creativity, interesting mechanics, balance and overall coolness —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.236.128.155 (talk • contribs) 11:43, 12 December 2006 (MST). Please sign your posts.

Why thank you :) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frasmage (talk • contribs) 11:11, 15 December 2006 (MST). Please sign your posts.

Lol... this is an interest joke... Seeing that that IP is yours :). You should have just have rated it as your user... However, I see where you are coming from... Its good to start the rating with a 10/10 for balance :). --Green Dragon 02:18, 16 December 2006 (MST)

Mine? how do you get that? This is my usual address. The only thing I can think of is the fact that I have posted from a public library. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frasmage (talk • contribs) 17:38, 20 December 2006 (MST). Please sign your posts.

I guess it was not you..... BTW please sign all your posts with four tildes (~~~~) so I don't have to add the Unsigned template for all of your posts.. Thanks in advance. --Green Dragon 16:42, 20 December 2006 (MST)

Sorry, like I said, dunno much about the coding. I have just been signing it copying what is coded for others and putting my name instead. So lets try this --Frasmage 17:04, 20 December 2006 (MST)

Much better, thanks. --Green Dragon 17:35, 20 December 2006 (MST)

Balance - 9/10

Thought you might be interested, I did a CCS analysis on this class, and it came out at 215 (which is optimal).

I'm assuming Gemini Dance is a powerful ability because of the ability boost, saves etc

Gemini Dancer CCS Analysis
Basics		Abilities (1st-5th)		Abilities (6th-10th)		Abilities (11th-)
d8 HD	+ 20	AC Bonus (x2)	+ 8	Dance (x2)	+ 8	AC Bonus (x2)	+ 2
Weapon Prof	+ 25	Gem Speed (x2)	+ 8	Harmonic	+ 2	Speed (x2)	+ 2
Armor Prof	+ 0	Finesse	+ 4	Improved Gem Dance	+ 2	Imp Uncanny Dodge	+ 1
Skill Points	+ 51	Gem Dance (x1)	+ 8 (Powerful)	Uncanny Dodge	+ 2	Greater Gen Dance	+ 1
Skills	+ 22	Image	+ 4	Companion	+ 2	Imp Harm	+ 1
BAB	+ 17	Evasion	+ 4	Rythm	+ 2	Gem Sentinence	+ 1
Saves	+ 10	Dance Style	+ 4	AC Bonus	+ 2	Dance (x2)	+ 4
Multiclass	- 4			Gem Speed	+ 2	Imp Rythm	+ 1
Armor Restriction	- 6					Greater Harmonic	+ 1
						Tireless	+ 1
						Twin	+ 1
						Master	+ 1
						Perfect	+ 1
Total = 135		Total = 40		Total = 22		Total = 18
Grand Total = 215 Verdict = Perfect

--Pwsnafu 15:15, 28 February 2007 (MST)

Does that mean you give this a 10/10 for balance? --Green Dragon 20:52, 28 February 2007 (MST)

Edit: Fixed formating. Re: Might as well (won't change anything though) Pwsnafu 16:41, 4 March 2007 (MST)

Sorry, however I have one more question. A 10 on D&D Wiki is "Exemplary. This entry is worth imitating. Makes you go "wow"." ^[link] whereas a 8 is "Well balanced. Entry is as balanced as many SRD entries. " ^[link] So, an 8 is on the same level as the SRD. Which does this deserve, an 8 or a 10? --Green Dragon 18:35, 4 March 2007 (MST)

Thanks for reformatting everything (it never occurred to me to use tables :P ). The problem with D&D Wiki balance system is that there is no clear distinction between a 9 and a 10. It is definitely worth a 9 over an 8, as dancing base classes are a rarity (there is the dervish PrC I guess, but the dance styles put this above it). So I will be safe and give this a 9/10. --Pwsnafu 15:15, 5 March 2007 (MST)

9 it is. --Green Dragon 18:57, 6 March 2007 (MST)

Balance - 5/10

I give Gemini Dancer a 5/10 because I like this class, but I have some problems with some of their class abilities. The Gemini Double is an illusion effect that becomes a [shadow]-type effect. As an illusion the attacking creature should get a save to discern the true nature of the double, like 10+1/2 class level+charisma modifier. At the companion level, enemies should still get a save, such as against a Shadow creature that was summoned to take 1/2 damage from the attacks. This ability also needs to be clarified at higher levels. Are they still a shadow image, or are they real?

This needs to be clarified, then I can upgrade my rating for this class. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.21.153.30 (talk • contribs) 08:47, 2 April 2007 (MST). Please sign your posts.

I made the above comment because I am using this class in a game and some aspects of the class do not seem to follow standard D20 rules. I have rewritten much of this class to clarify some language and some abilities, but I would like to know the proper place to offering these changes up for review. I think it might be impolite to just over-write the original work without some acceptance of my actions.--Pilitus 13:00, 4 April 2007 (MDT)

Actually it is okay to change this as it is not locked — anyway I can see you have already done that. --Green Dragon 14:02, 7 April 2007 (MDT)

Balance 8/10

I personally like what this class is capable of, as well as the great RP possibilities it has to offer...as well as a excuse to play the Flashdance soundtrack during my sessions. :D

It's well balanced, and pending a playtest, it looks balanced enough to play with the big boys, as well be a maniac (maniac) on the the floor...dancing like she's never danced before.

Take your passion and make it happen, baby. It's Fabulouth. Flession 09:49, 7 April 2007 (MDT)

Rewrite

There are abilities about this class that I thought did not work in the true spirit of d20, such as the percentile dice for the Gemini Twin ability being dismissed (It now has an increasing percentage of the dancer's hp), and the written text of some of their class abilities struck me as too dense, so I re-wrote most of the class's abilities to tighten up the wording and increase the ease with which the abilities are understood.--Pilitus 12:31, 7 April 2007 (MDT)

Looks good — thanks for changing this. --Green Dragon 12:26, 9 April 2007 (MDT)

Balance - 7/10

I give this Class a 9/10 (for why this rating was changed see below) because it's a very well though out and well designed idea, except that at 4th level, their’s a class special ability called "Dance Style", but the rules for the ability are incomplete. The only thing this class needs to do to get a 10/10 is to fix that one special ability. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.67.4.226 (talk • contribs) 10:29, 13 April 2007 (MDT). Please sign your posts.

I vote we make this a 7/10, since the explanation actually matches that ranking on DnD Wiki's Balance System. Thoughts? —EldritchNumen 21:19, 15 April 2007 (MDT)

Done and done. --Green Dragon 09:44, 16 April 2007 (MDT)

I went back into the class and cleaned up the level 4 ability.--Pilitus 10:55, 16 April 2007 (MDT)

And that is grounds for this vote to be nullified... --Green Dragon 18:35, 17 April 2007 (MDT)

Remove clean-up tag

Is there anything else that can be done to help to remove the need for a clean-up tag for this page?--Pilitus 10:59, 18 April 2007 (MDT)

Yes. Here is what needs to get done to remove Template:Wikify.

1. Uncapitalize all titles (GEMINI to Gemini, etc).
2. There are two main headers for this class—merge them together.
3. The table needs to be made into a wiki-like table, see DnD Class Preload (edited).
4. Add Class Skills and HD to new table.
5. Format "Game Rule Information".
6. Get rid of "Epic Class Notes" header (redundant).
7. Make Epic information into a wiki-like table with added HD and class skills, see DnD Class Preload (edited).

After all this it should be good enough for Template:Wikify to be removed. --Green Dragon 12:23, 18 April 2007 (MDT)

I finished that daunting task of wiki-fying the progression table. I'll get to the epic table eventually. DancingZombies 11:07, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

Almost... The Class Skills do not have enough of a colspan. Make it two more and it will look loads better. Also, another blank line is needed before the table begins. Also the starting gold needs to be added back in (even though it is not part of the DnD Class Preload) as part of the Game Rule Information. --Green Dragon 16:58, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

I went in and made the changes you talked about, plus I wiki-fied the epic chart. Thanks, DancingZombies for grabbing hold and doing the hard part. --Pilitus 18:37, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

Almost done (see above). --Green Dragon 22:08, 19 April 2007 (MDT)

Took me a minute to see it, but finally caught what you where talking about. Fixed it. Thanks for the list of things to do, it helped out a great deal.--Pilitus 07:19, 20 April 2007 (MDT)

No problem. Since this class has now been formatted Template:Wikify has been removed. Thanks for helping format this. --Green Dragon 09:51, 20 April 2007 (MDT)

No problem, you guys. As far as the colspan goes, I wasn't amazingly familiar with all the table formating lingo stuff, so I copy and pasted the table from the Orcish Blood Warrior and just doubled the level (from 10 levels to 20) and replaced it with the appropriate Gemini Dancer information. (EDIT: Wasn't logged in. xD) DancingZombies 23:03, 21 April 2007 (MDT)

As a side note it is normally better to use the DnD Class Preload (edited) because it is normally more up-to-date. Anyway, thanks again! --Green Dragon 21:02, 22 April 2007 (MDT)

Rating

Power - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because the class is well-balanced and has just the right abilities necessary to make him or her playable, yet not to the point that his or her talents overshadow those of other classes that might otherwise assume his or her role in the typical D&D party--in this case, martial classes (e.g., Fighters and Swashbucklers) and/or "expert" classes (e.g., Rogues, Bards, and Monks). --75.58.60.120 13:17, 26 August 2008 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because you give a clear and concise account of both the Gemini Dancer's abilities and the role he or she plays in the typical D&D adventuring party. --75.58.60.120 13:17, 26 August 2008 (MDT)

Formatting - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because even though the material was well-written and thoroughly thought out, it could still use some editing--some capitalization here, proper punctuation there, and the like. --75.58.60.120 13:17, 26 August 2008 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because unlike many other classes, which end up coming across as reconstructed classes form the PHB et al. or glorified gestalt classes, the Gemini Dancer clearly stands out from the crowd with his/her unique strengths and abilities and their appropriately corresponding weaknesses. Likewise, she can fit any setting (Medieval European, Middle Eastern, Far Eastern, primal jungle/rainforest, etc.) with little to no effort at all.--75.58.60.120 13:17, 26 August 2008 (MDT)

A bit too weak

This class is slightly to weak, in fact I believe it could use full-bab, there no point in a fighting-based class (without big damages input like rogue) with mid bab.--Lord Dhazriel 09:13, 31 March 2009 (MDT)

I know my opinion probably doesn't hold much weight around here, but I agree with Lord Dhazriel. Full BAB is perfectly OK. The description even calls out specifically that this class is fully capable of handling themselves on the battlefield. -- Mythos Specialist 21:39, 30 May 2009 (MDT)

I'd like to see the styles being incorporated as class features rather than as feats. Maybe you could learn new styles but can only have one style active at a time. Charisma could be made more important for Gemini Dancers below 9th level, as well. Looking further, the gemini dancer is incompetent when not dancing; this is problematic because you don't get a second usage of Gemini Dance until 6th level (unless you burn one of your 7/8 feats on Extra Dance) and you can't even start dancing until 2nd level. Tireless Dance at level 17 is pretty much a waste of a level when Gemini Dance duration is based on half your Dance skill and the fatigue effect fades at the end of the fight. By that point you've got thirteen rounds of dancing.

Considering that Gemini Dancing is what this class is known for, it really should be able to well, Gemini Dance right out of the box. Perhaps give it more uses of the ability early on so that it'll be able to make use of its class abilities in a good proportion of fights (given the guideline of four encounters a day). It's either that or shore up its combat ability when not in Dance state. Finfreeze 20:47, 1 June 2009 (MDT)

I second that motion. Why can't this class do its namesake right away? It just makes good sense. -- Danzig 20:47, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

Rating

Power - 4/5 I give this class a 4 out of 5 because I haven't playtested it,so I can't be sure, but it seems a wee smidgen on the powerful side. It also seems like it should be a prestige class. But maybe that's just me. --173.88.186.173 08:30, 28 August 2009 (MDT)

Wording - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because I do like the wording. The names of the powers are pretty shiny. --173.88.186.173 08:30, 28 August 2009 (MDT)

Formatting - 3/5 I give this class a 3 out of 5. --173.88.186.173 08:30, 28 August 2009 (MDT)

Flavor - 5/5 I give this class a 5 out of 5 because it's a cool idea! Not an anime cliche for once! (Imagining a protean scourge Gemini Dancer... shivers) --173.88.186.173 08:30, 28 August 2009 (MDT)