Talk:Fallen Human (5e Race)

Red Soul's Reset Ability

[revision 02:51, 27 September 2018 by ConcealedLight‎] - removal of reset ability
I'll contest this. It's clear this work is intended to be a faithful adaptation of a subject from another medium, the fallen human from the game Undertale. In that game, the ability of the red soul to "reset" is a very pertinent mechanic, as it replaces the role of the typical "game over - retry?" mechanic with a canon explanation, with enemies and events even reacting to the fact that this is not the first time you've interacted with them. In that sense, although adapting this ability into a multi-person rpg-set comes with it's flaws, as it is, indeed, a very powerful ability, it does not come without precedent. Instead of rejecting the ability outright, perhaps we can see to it to assist the creator(s)/wiki in making an adaption that is both faithful to the source material, but also respects the limitations of the 5e system? --ZarHakkar (talk) 09:05, 27 September 2018 (MDT)

That's not a valid {{needsbalance}} reason. The ability to add your proficiency bonus to death saving throws is strong enough alone and compared to the other subraces abilities that in addition to the now removed trait or even the following is not comparatively balanced. As far as trying to make it more balanced, using the half-orcs Relentless Endurance trait seems like the easy way out. Another way may be granted that but instead making it a Wisdom save against half the damage that reduced you below 0 hit points and then making it recharge on a short rest instead of a long rest. —ConcealedLight (talk) 13:03, 27 September 2018 (MDT)

It might have been a little vague, but the {{needsbalance}} template was calling to the entirety of the Red Soul's abilities, not just the Reset ability. As you said yourself, even Unbreakable Will on it's own overshadows much of the other features of the other subraces. I feel like there should be granted an opportunity to combine and rework the two abilities in a way that is both balanced comparatively to the other subraces and as faithful as possible to the source material. Setting up a template and opening up a discussion about it seems a lot more constructive than removing a feature outright.

...

What are the valid reasons for a {{needsbalance}} template? Are they listed somewhere? --ZarHakkar (talk) 13:36, 27 September 2018 (MDT)

Yeah, that's fine and is better than just moving a complete/ balanced page to the needs work section because of a questionable IP edit. As for {{needsbalance}}, I can't recall atm. However, I've learned the hard way that other editors don't like the so-called one sentence "This is wrong" type entries for maintenance template and they should be more specific so even users without much knowledge of the system can still use it to inform and hopefully address the issue. For example, on this talk page where I explained the strength of "Unbreakable Will", the strength of the subrace compared to the others and then the effect of adding the proposed trait. I hope that explains it then. —ConcealedLight (talk) 15:34, 27 September 2018 (MDT)

Age

I think that fallen hummans should live as long as normal humans if not longer because they are still humans after all

Red Soul's weapon

Isn't 1d4+20 damage after killing 100 enemies a bit underwhelming? The previous versions added a dice for every level of the dagger, but it leveled up after every enemy killed. If the damage is nerfed, shouldn't the leveling up be easier? I'm sure there can be a middle point for both. Maybe getting back the dices, setting up a maximum (like 10 dices or something) and/or improving the leveling up of the dagger?

I'd suggest that levels are incremental. What I mean is that the first few levels require not many kills, but it gets higher every level. Maybe even removing the part that enemies must be killed with the dagger and setting it up with the character's level, being that the weapon is the character's soul. What about 1d4 extra per two or three (character or dagger) levels?

There is a chart on Undertale's wiki that can be used for stat references and can even be extrapolated for every soul's weapon. Also there is another table for the number of enemies on each zone (thus displaying the number of enemies required for LV 20).

Hope this helps!

A greatsword with 20 strength deals an average of 11 damage. This deals 27. Even with the proposed change(giving 1d4 every 3rd level) this becomes 6d4, which is 17. A +3 greatsword, which is possible at that level, has an average of 14 damage.

The damage shouldn't even scale in the first place, at least not permanently and to a much lower limit. --SwankyPants (talk) 06:19, 23 February 2021 (MST)

Soul Weapons and their Ludicrousness

Since this class is getting plenty of attention, I wish to try and steer that in a more balanced direction.

• Determination's knife deals 27(1d4 + 20 + 5) on average, or 17(6d4 + 5) on average with the proposed change. I always count it as +20 since you could just kill 100 rats with it. The proposed version is less crazy, but still steps on the toes of some high level magic items, and how Fear scales(even if it shouldn't)
• Patience's fake knife deals 7(1d4 + 5) on average. This would be fine, potentially underpowered, if it didn't allow you to cast a 5th level spell at will.
• Bravery's glove deals 8(1d6 + 5) + 3(1d6) on average. Mostly fine again, but making the constant saves does slow down the game a bit.
• Integrity's ballet shoes(???) deal 11(2d6 + 5) on average, however that special property turns this into a roided finesse greatsword when you get Tunnel Fighter, which you get at 1st level.
• Perseverance's notebook(?????) deals 7(1d4 + 5) on average. Same deal as Patience, however this is a 1st level spell you can cast 2-6 times. Not as broken, but still concerning.
• Kindness' frying pan deals 8(1d6 + 5) on average, and doubles as a shield while not counting as a shield. This allows for an AC of 21(shield, frying pan, studded leather, 20 dexterity) without any magical items at about 4th level. Also INFINITE HEALING.
• Justice's revolver deals 13(2d8 + 5) on average, but this is once every three turns. The average DPR is 4.33.
• Fear's sword deals 8(1d6 + 5), and up to 18(6d6 + 5) or 24(8d6 + 5) for fighters on average. This is obviously ridiculous.
• Hate's axe deals 11(1d12 + 5) on average, and allows you to make an extra attack with it. Less ludicrous than fear, but still ludicrous.

Clearly, most of these weapons need to be tuned down. --SwankyPants (talk) 08:52, 1 March 2021 (MST)