Talk:Chronomancer Variant (5e Class)

Needsbalance

Would it be okay to edit the terminology on this page? There's some serious OP stuff here that needs reworked, but I'd like to start off with 5e terms first so its fluid and compatibility with other classes. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 20:02, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, of course. See also Help:Spirit and Intent. --Green Dragon (talk) 20:07, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Great! I will take a look at that first before taking [a lot] of time to alter things. Thank you :) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

If something wants to change this from all manner of wrong to a simple needs balance, thanks. (At least I think I've got it done) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 19:03, 24 June 2017 (MDT)

How about adding a scaling to Chronos Weaponry to make this class "weapon-viable" because otherwise I dont see much use in them since you have cantrips that fill that area? ATM it's +1d6 force at 7, one could change it to +1d6 at 7, +1d8/+2d4 at 11, +2d6/1d12 at 14 and +2d8/1d16 at 17. I would argue for the later off the 2 since you dont get an Extra Attack Feature, and to compete with cantrips as well as magic equipment. --141.55.116.210 07:54, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

I couldn't agree more with you, for all reasons including. My personal bias leans towards increasing the damage by d6s vs increasing the die type. So for me, 2d6@11 & 3d6@17? That seem good to you too? great idea btw! BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:17, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

Sure, I would say that I'm not a good judge in such things, but looks good to me too. Also, maby name-change "Gravity" into something like "Time Anomaly" since Gravity doesn't realy fit a time-manipulator.--141.55.116.210 08:27, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

Changed the damage and feature name. I think OP was going for something to name the slow effect, like gravity pulling down on them but I understand where that wouldn't quite fit with theme. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 08:39, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

Also, add the cantrips to the table? I have no idea how, so that would be up to whoever knows how. --141.55.116.210 12:36, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

It's kind of this or that, meaning scaling damage or cantrips. Cantrips scale with class level and are infinite. They're equated to attacks in that regard. I know that you can't cast cantrips and attack on the same turn (usually) but typically, you don't find cantrips on less-than-full spellcasting classes. (iirc) BigShotFancyMan (talk) 12:47, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

Did you read Spellcasting? "Cantrips At 1st level, you know three cantrips of your choice from the wizard spell list." You could tone it down by limiting them to cantrips without attack rolls, or similar. Since this basically is a spellcasting class, just with special (still limited use) spell-like abilities instead of actual spells, if you take a look at Hit-Dice-Size and proficiencies, you could just leave cantrips in there, because, as you said, you still have to choose between cantrip and weapon attack. --141.55.116.210 13:24, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

Well I don't know how that little sucker got in there (I just forgot, lot of edits throughout the site) but that's a good idea to limit them. I'll try to take a look within the next few days. Probably focus on schools of magic vs non-attack roll spells, if I can a decent qty of cantrip schools that don't deal damage. BigShotFancyMan (talk) 13:29, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

Well, all you could choose with non-damage-schools would be True Strike (? pretty much useless but still combat), Minor Illusion, Mending, Blade Ward (? also still combat), Message, Control Flames, Mold Earth, Shape Water, Friends, Gust and Prestidigitaion. Some of the most useful cantrips wouldn't be in there since Mage Hand is Conjuration, while Light and Dancing Lights are Evocations. But, as I said, I am a bad judge when it comes to balancing, so your call. But you also need to think about the time between combats, when you need to be able to be usefull. Cantrips help there, especially Light, Dancing Lights and Mage Hand. So definitifly keep cantrips. And/Or you could make the spellslots refresh after a short rest (would fit, considering time is the theme, but would probaly be to strong. Mabye at level 14? That would then possibly need a new name).

So limit to non-damage(-schools), with or without Spells refreshing after a short rest (mabye after Level 14. And/or only up to 5 points-worth of spellslots.) [You could add "You stop ageing and can't be physically or magically aged." in there, regardless of refreshing after short rest, since it is mostly useless but adds some flavor.]) But still, your call.

Also, a better description is needed for Spellcasting because "For some reason, the forces of time manipulation have bestowed upon you the ability to cast spells." is laughable. Make it something like "The Willpower (Wisdom) you use while influencing time also makes you able to cast spells." --141.55.116.210 14:28, 18 October 2017 (MDT)

Mabye the Clockwork Archetype needs some tweaking too. Clockwork Weaponry is fine, but the other two feel like they need more. Mabye take out the turret and make the summon the focus. Make it last till 0 hp or dismissed (no concentration), at level 6 it gains extra hp equal to half your total hit points and does an extra 1d6 of force (at higher levels a CR1 would get destroyed in 1 turn and wont do any meaningfull damage), at 10 Clockwork Weaponry also affects the summon and at 13 both of your unarmored AC becomes 12 +dex-modifier and the summon now does 2d6 force extra. As a balancing point, restrict the summon to a beast (which then becomes clockwork, so immunity to charmed, terrified and poisoned as well as poison and psychic damage) and obviously only one summon at a time.( If you want multiple machinations, add a clockwork-beast not larger than tiny somewhere which acts as a familiar.) Or you could replace the summon with the Mechanical Servant with some tweaks, which would probably work too. Like only 3 Upgrades, the damage of Runic Engravings (cantrips) only take half your level and the different buildes only upgrade to 14 and 12. That should be enough. Definitifly some nerfs, since otherwise this class would most likely be too strong.[This would make this my go to class when the DM allows it, since it would have weapons, magic, AND summons all in one while still balanced. Bloody perfect.] --141.55.116.210 07:51, 20 October 2017 (MDT)

Also, Tachyon Travel probaly needs a restriction, otherwise you go climb a tree/tower/mountain/cast Fly and then just teleport miles away. I would say around 300 ft? And a clarification if this provokes attacks of opportunity or not. (Probably should, to keep everything balanced. But again I am a bad judge for this.) --141.55.116.210 09:44, 20 October 2017 (MDT)

While I am at the archtypes Planar Travel could use some upgrades too, don't you think? Mabye you could summon a beeing from the last plane you visited with a CR of whatever you think appropriate up to wis-modifier times per long rest, each for an hour but without concentration). [Just throwing out ideas at the moment.] --141.55.116.210 12:13, 20 October 2017 (MDT)

I see your point with tachyon travel as part of the movement, but leaving things as "implied" isn't the best. For example, I thought it was unlimited. I like to be as clear as possible, but I also am not sure how to word it properly right now. Would it be "within your movement range"? Also, does it take up the distance you traveled from your movement, or does it count seperatly? --141.55.116.43 13:59, 2 November 2017 (MDT)

So, after more than a year that I forgot about this, I got some time on my hands and remembered (I am the 141.55.116.43 guy, finally made an account). I will take a look at this tomorrow, but the quick read I gave it again showed me that this has been fcked over sideways. The summons are definitly too strong, gonna tone those down a bit, some of the smaller stat changes will be reverted, etc. I will also add a note that there is a talk page t discuss any changes. --Celepito (talk) 13:27, 20 February 2019 (MST)

Sounds good. I admit that in your absence I didn't prevent others having their way with this article. I look forward to your changes. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 07:31, 21 February 2019 (MST)

Okay, first minor changes implemented. Half spellcasting again, since the abilities you gain are too strong to justify full. Hit dice 1d6 again, more is too much, especially if you get summons which will take some of the damage instead. Alter reality to 18 since you normally, if you gain access to a higher spell tier, you dont get a new ability as well (exception being level 5). See Ranger or Paladin. (Gonna take a look at how to fit that in proper soon)

Chrono Reset will be gone, since for you only get an Ability Score Improvement and a minor ability at best, and because forcing your group to restart the encounter, with one person out of the fight is both stupid and unreasonable for the group and the DM.

Clockwork Kronos will also be thrown out of the window, since it is a second capstone ability at 20, and it is stupidly overpowered.

The stats of the other summons will be next on the list to change. --Celepito (talk) 09:16, 21 February 2019 (MST)

I turned down the Clockwork Soldier hard, it should now be equal to around a CR of 2,5 or something. I looked at Gargoyles, Minotaurs and the Iron Golem for references.

The whole archetype got some clarification, and I added the Mending and the Find Familiar bit, since they fit thematically, and I dont think they are too strong. The heal amount of mending should be ok early on, and at the later levels, it would not make much difference, other than for after the fight. But if you get time to heal, you have time to re-summon, so it is really just an RP-tool. Same goes for the familiar, the options you get should not affect anything really. If you want, I can put in a HP and AC limit.

I also have some more general ideas I would like your opinion on:

- Adding a vulnerability to lightning damage to the summons, as to weaken them further.

- Throwing out Alter Reality all toghether. You already gain Era features that can be put/are on level 18, and I have a general dislike for the wish spell.

- Turning Planar Voyager into the spellcasting focused archetype. Regaining an amount of spellslots after a short rest, access to the spell lists of sorcerers, warlocks etc.

I will hold off on making more changes until I hear from you. --Celepito (talk) 10:52, 21 February 2019 (MST)

No no keep going. I don't have this high on priority at the moment, and it may be easier to go back and forth when it is closer to final edits. Unless you have a question or are curious about specific parts. ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 11:20, 21 February 2019 (MST)

I may actually be done? Lots of changes, so here goes:

- Easiest first, as cool as the Bell tower concept was, you already get Tempo and Rythm at 15, so the tower is gone

- Added some stuff from the wizard achetypes to Planar Voyager to make it the casting achetype, additional spell list + two cantrips at 3, Arcane Recovery at 10, Lore Masterys Spell Secrets at 14

- minor wording changes here and there, finally clarified Tachyon Travel properly, added the ageing bit to Shelter of Time

- took out the ageing bit in Chronos Weaponry, because, as thematical as it is, all it would do realitically is slow down combat more with useless additinal rolls

- threw out Realm Warp and put Shelter of Time there, reasoning being that you get a new spell tier, and Shelter is a rather minor feature, and Realm Warp didnt really fit the whole time thing with it being an illusion and all

- 13 and 17 empty, because new spell tier, didnt change Zealous Movement because it is a minor, conditional effect, and level 5 is usually an exception for half casters

- I think I nerfed the Guardian? Not quite sure, should be somewhere around CR13 to 15, might still be too strong at level 18 though, your call

And that is actually everything I think I needed to do. Looking forward to your thoughts. I also added the needs review flag, to get some more eyes on this. If the balance is fine, then the page might as well be locked, so there wont be any random edits again. --Celepito (talk) 15:45, 21 February 2019 (MST)

I'll try to give it a review sometime and unless there's high traffic on the page it won't be locked. High traffic is also subjective, so who knows-it may happen quickly :) ~ BigShotFancyMan (talk) 09:33, 22 February 2019 (MST)

Do take a look at the Arcane Archer page, which is locked upon request. And at the discussion below when you get the time, your input is alway appreciated! --Celepito (talk) 21:34, 12 March 2019 (MDT)

Planer voyager has no 5th level ability where as the clockwork one does.

That is because clockwork actually shouldnt have one there either! On it, my oversight! --Celepito (talk) 21:10, 12 March 2019 (MDT)

OK, so current idea would be to throw out the Soldier all together, and switch around Clockwork Weaponry and Clockwork Defenses regarding the level. That way you get another summoner-themed ability quicker (without the soldier), and the weapon themed abilities are at 7 and 14, which seems somewhat fitting as well.

Another thing I noticed right now is that there should probably be a limit for Clockwork Defenses, like finishing a short rest. Because at the moment, there is no real reason to attack the turret, since you can just resummon it next turn anyway.

And I still think that the Guardian is a bit too strong. I think taking away the explosion and the advantage on STR checks should do the trick though.

Any thoughts?--Celepito (talk) 21:17, 12 March 2019 (MDT)

The Arcane Archer was extensively reviewed by others before being locked. I know the template says user request but I think it was more that enough people thought it complete, and an admin locked it.

Regarding your ideas for the class, I don't think there's an issue swapping them around. I would rather see the guardian have a creature page and a hyper link to it, or an info box with the stats for it off to the side. ~ BigShotFancyMan ^{talk contributions} 06:42, 13 March 2019 (MDT)

I mean I would set up the info box so that everything is still on one page, but I have no idea how. If you got a link to a page with such an info box, I think that would be all that I need though. And I dont know specifics about the Archer, I simply saw the template there. But I thought as much, which is why I added the review template here. Thats why I said above that the page could possibly get locked, not just for high traffic. --Celepito (talk) 20:11, 13 March 2019 (MDT)

Here's an example of what you could do. The other option, which may be more preferred, is create a homebrew creature the link it to the page. If you create the creature, I can help with how to link it once it is done. Otherwise, here is this: ~ BigShotFancyMan ^{talk contributions} 08:37, 14 March 2019 (MDT)

I... did a thing?

I tried the info box, but I really didnt like how I made it look (someone else might do a better job here). So instead I took the code for a creature page, and made the description the ability text. Does this look good for you? I also balanced it a bit more, I think. And I added the limit to the Clockwork Defenses, in form of a short rest. --Celepito (talk) 14:51, 17 March 2019 (MDT)

I will be honest, I have no clue what the reviewer would like to have changed... (Also, I made my own class, if you would take a look. I havent gotten any feedback there so far, sadly.) --Celepito (talk) 13:47, 18 June 2019 (MDT)